20 Gallon Tank Dwarf Cichlids in community tank....

[PeterFishKeepin]

Hello everybody,

I had a 55 gallon tank I was going to put cichlids in but things went wrong... you can read more in this thread below:
55 Gallon Tank - RIP 55 gallon tank........my dreams are over .. :( | General Discussion Forum | 527929


I still want to have some cichlids and my 20gallon high is going to be restocked... currently, it has:
1 bn pleco
4 rummy nose
6 neons
3 swordtails
2 congo tetra
2 albino cory catfish

I plan to rehome the congo tetra possible today... my swordtails will be moved to my 850gal goldfish pond with some of their babies once they grow up.

that would leave, 1 bn pleco, 4 rummy nose and 6 neon tetras, 2 albino cory catfish

so I would like to know what dwarf cichlids would go best in this tank setup I would like to get a pair to try to get some breeding too.

I don't know what would do ok, and if the stocking allows after getting a pair ill to add some more cory cats.

The only dwarfs I've seen in my area are, kribs, german blue rams, gold rams, some apistos and Bolivian rams.

Which would go best with my current stocking... will there be too many bottom-dwelling fish???

Thanks for all your responses in advance.

Peter

 

[StarGirl]

Bolivian Rams. Because of the temperature differences.

German and Gold Rams need too high of a temp for the Neons and Cories. 82+. The Rummies and Pleco would be ok though.
I dont know much about Kribs and Apistos.

 

[PeterFishKeepin]

Bolivian Rams. Because of the temperature differences.

German and Gold Rams need too high of a temp for the Neons and Cories. 82+. The Rummies and Pleco would be ok though.
I dont know much about Kribs and Apistos.

i like the bolivans too..

do you think it would be overstocked, understocked, perfect amount???

also if I got 1 male 1 female is it possible for me to breed the bolivans or would it be too much for the tank mates??

Thanks Peter.

 

[StarGirl]

Were you going to raise them in the 20g too? IDK my GBR always ate the eggs in the community tank. AND they are very cranky to tank mates when eggs are down. I have not owned Bolivians myself though.

 

[PeterFishKeepin]

Were you going to raise them in the 20g too? IDK my GBR always ate the eggs in the community tank. AND they are very cranky to tank mates when eggs are down. I have not owned Bolivians myself though.

ive got spare 5 gallon tanks around 3-4 i think so they can be setup to raise babies

just breed in 20gal, the babies in 5gal till larger sizes as lfs said if I can get them breeding they would take babies onboard.

 

[TClare]

I agree that the Bolivian rams would be your best option not just because of the temperature factor, but also due to aggression issues, especially conflicts with the Corydoras that I am sure would arise with Apistogrammas and kribensis, especially if they breed. They are very unlikely to raise any fry in the community tank, but you could potentially raise some (not the whole brood) in your small tanks. I have done this with Laetacaras. I siphoned out some of the fry when they were 1-2 days free swimming and reared them initially in a 10 gallon tank. I raised 25 fry on one occasion and 40 another time. I stopped at this point as they were not selling. I did move them to a bigger tank before they were big enough to take to the shop. In 5 gallon tanks you could probably only raise a few to saleable size.

Having said that I much prefer to breed cichlids in a situation where the parents are able to care for the fry.

 

[PeterFishKeepin]

are bolivans good parents in a community tank or would they not care so much for their offspring? is it possible for the babies to survive a few days in the tank with their parents protection or would the tetra and other fish to easily get to them.

 

[TClare]

are bolivans good parents in a community tank or would they not care so much for their offspring? is it possible for the babies to survive a few days in the tank with their parents protection or would the tetra and other fish to easily get to them.

I haven’t kept them, but I find that most cichlids are able to care for the eggs and wrigglers quite successfully, the trouble starts when they become free swimming, moving around a lot and looking like attractive live food for the tetras etc.

 

[Noroomforshoe]

I am sorry for what happened to you, but You can not bead, and raise the fry in your 20 gallon tall tank it is too small, There will be aggression from the mating cichlids, and more with the doting parents. There would be a war and the stress could cause fish losses before bad water quality does. Again, I am sorry, I was exactly were you are a few years ago, but its better to wait untill you have the ability and the space and the money for multiple tanks, of all sizes, it will get here before you know it!

 

[PeterFishKeepin]

I am sorry for what happened to you, but You can not bead, and raise the fry in your 20 gallon tall tank it is too small, There will be aggression from the mating cichlids, and more with the doting parents. There would be a war and the stress could cause fish losses before bad water quality does. Again, I am sorry, I was exactly were you are a few years ago, but its better to wait untill you have the ability and the space and the money for multiple tanks, of all sizes, it will get here before you know it!

Thank you for your advice, i was planning to have a light stocking in the 20gal with 2 bolivian rams for them to breed then all offspring will grow up a little bit in multiple 5 gallon tanks before being given to my lfs, I don't plan to have the offspring long term.

I haven’t kept them, but I find that most cichlids are able to care for the eggs and wrigglers quite successfully, the trouble starts when they become free swimming, moving around a lot and looking like attractive live food for the tetras etc.

Thank you for your advice, this can be beneficial I guess too because this will reduce the number of babies that do survive reducing how many tanks I will need to raise the fry, it is also good because the weaker fish would be eaten before the stronger (survival of the fittest) and reducing numbers closer to how many my lfs would actually want to take.

 

[veggieshark]

I think you need to reduce your current stock to a school of single species dither fish for the cichlid pair. When the cichlids breed, I would remove the dither fish to the smaller tank instead of the babies.

 

[PeterFishKeepin]

I think you need to reduce your current stock to a school of single species dither fish for the cichlid pair. When the cichlids breed, I would remove the dither fish to the smaller tank instead of the babies.

Thank you that is a good idea and ill see what I can do about that.... thanks for the heads up.

The ideal stocking I was planning was
pair of bolivan ram or another dwarf cichlid
1 bn pleco
6 neons
4 rummynose
2 cory cats

then if possible increase the schools of the fish if stocking allows.

 

[veggieshark]

If you want to do any serious breeding, I would keep the BN out, because it will probably eat the eggs at night time.

 

[PeterFishKeepin]

If you want to do any serious breeding, I would keep the BN out, because it will probably eat the eggs at night time.

It wont be too serious just a couple babies to raise when they survive, ill let nature take its course and what ever gets eaten well it happens, the ones that survive ill raise, id also assume they are a "stronger" fish too.

 

[Linda1234]

Hello everybody,

I had a 55 gallon tank I was going to put cichlids in but things went wrong... you can read more in this thread below:
55 Gallon Tank - RIP 55 gallon tank........my dreams are over .. :( | General Discussion Forum | 527929


I still want to have some cichlids and my 20gallon high is going to be restocked... currently, it has:
1 bn pleco
4 rummy nose
6 neons
3 swordtails
2 congo tetra
2 albino cory catfish

I plan to rehome the congo tetra possible today... my swordtails will be moved to my 850gal goldfish pond with some of their babies once they grow up.

that would leave, 1 bn pleco, 4 rummy nose and 6 neon tetras, 2 albino cory catfish

so I would like to know what dwarf cichlids would go best in this tank setup I would like to get a pair to try to get some breeding too.

I don't know what would do ok, and if the stocking allows after getting a pair ill to add some more cory cats.

The only dwarfs I've seen in my area are, kribs, german blue rams, gold rams, some apistos and Bolivian rams.

Which would go best with my current stocking... will there be too many bottom-dwelling fish???

Thanks for all your responses in advance.

Peter

For a 20 high this tank is already over stocked. If you remove the bn and 3 swordtails you could put in a male borelli. The tank is not large enough for a pair of most apisto species.

Btw rummy should be kept in a tank at least 4 feet long; and cory are best kept in schools 6 to 10 but a 20 high is too small for 6; not enough floor space. For a 20 high i would recommend a group of 6 ember tetra which are smaller and far less active.

Apsito is a large genus with wide range of requirements and aggression level; you should indicate exactly which species are available.

I would not keep a pair of bolivian rams in a 20 high. You could consider a pair of a. pucallpaensis.

Conversely you could remove everything in the aquarium; add 6 ember tetra and a pair of gbr (if your water is soft) raise the temp to 84.

The problem is a lot of cichild have m/f aggression during the breeding cycle. Some species are pair bonding but most of them are larger fishes. Many species of apisto are harem breeders and will viciously attack each other under certain condition and the tank needs to be large enough with proper scaping for them to hide from each other. GBR are a mix bag; as the m/f aggression is unpredictable and largely differ from pair to pair. Bolivian rams behavior also have a large range again making them a bit unpredictable. There are more passive species but they tend to be too large for a 20 high. a. pucallpaensis are a bit more tame and smaller and are semi-bonding m/f which means the female will allow the male near the frys without killing him.

You haven't mentioned your water condition and a lot of these fishes have water requirements - swordtails and guppies will want medium hard water; while cory and most tetra will want soft water. sa cichild will want soft water.
-
Kribs are too active and at time too aggressive for a 20 high - once a strong pair forms they might do ok in a 20 high but that would be pushing things as they are not exactly small fishes. Also the cory and possibly the bn would almost certainly be outright killed once the kribs started breeding. They are extremely aggressive when guarding frys. As a west african fishes they do best in soft water.

 

[PeterFishKeepin]

I plan for 4 rummynose, 6 neons, 2 or some more corys cats, 1 bn pleco and a pair of dwarf cichlids, if a pair wont work then just 1 dwarf cichlid. But seriously would you consider tetras that much of an influence on the bioload of the tank. Everytime I see them they are never pooping, they are so small, I can understand the bn pleco.

 

[TClare]

The main potential conflicts I would envisage would be with the Corydoras and bristlenose pleco. And possible issues between the members of the pair themselves. As you already said you would remove the swordtails and Congo tetras, the remaining tetras should not be too much in terms of bio load. What are the dimensions of the tank? I am not very familiar with these US sizes. It may be on the small side.

 

[PeterFishKeepin]

I'm not familiar with us gals and diamentions either but have picked up on the ones that are relevant for me as majority of fishlore users are in USA.

The diamentions are something like
Tank Dimensions: 60 × 32 × 35cm (L x W x H)

 

[Graydog913]

What type of filtration?
Is it a planted tank?
If the fry survive of not being food for another they wouldn't necessarily be the strongest but most likely would be the luckiest

 

[PeterFishKeepin]

What type of filtration?
Is it a planted tank?
If the fry survive of not being food for another they wouldn't necessarily be the strongest but most likely would be the luckiest

I've got a hob filter it came with the tank, I may also add a little internal filter too.

It is medium level for planting, not so many stem a substrate rooted tanks, more java Fern, moss, Anubias and some other plants

 

[Flyfisha]

I have kept and still do keep Bolivian rams . You may find the adults know there is no room in a 20 and don’t even try to breed? In fact they might kill each other in a 20 ?
I have a female with around 30 plus fry in a 55 gallon tonight. I could try and tell you about the aggression the parents had towards the BN and corydoras or the other inhabitants that made me remove everyone before the parents died from exhaustion trying to defend their offspring.
They make very good parents with both mum and dad taking turns to defend the eggs and wrigglers. When one hundred fry start swimming they soon break away from the school. The parents then catch them in their mouth and try to return them. This is going to be very very difficult in a 20 . I am certain most fry would be eaten some time in the day or night. As I have seen with my own eyes what happened in a club members 40 gallon community tank.

A fully grown adult Bolivian is quite a bit biger than those sold in shops.
The fry on this species are smaller than sand . You might be able to vacuum them into another space but a net is out of the question ( I think) .

Short answer.
You don’t have room .
If you do get rams they are unlikely to breed .
Even if you have only Bolivians in the 20 you may have to remove the male when the female starts to rip the fins off him because she thinks he is the one eating the fry?

As mentioned a long time ago you could have a successful colony of the smallest cichlids in the hobby = shellies in a species only tank. I had a group in the same size 20 gallon as you describe. I found all shops would take them and they sold well at auction before Covid.

Post #15 says it all.
”For a 20 high this tank is already over stocked. If you remove the bn and 3 swordtails you could put in a male borelli. The tank is not large enough for a pair of most apisto species.”
We only have a handful of apistogramma species in Australia . I don’t what to sound rude PeterFishKeepin but apistogramma can be a very sad fish to try and keep. I have lots of pictures as my only memory of some I have lost.

 

[KribensisLover1]

Also I don’t want to sound like a downer but breeding pairs of cichlids can be a nightmare. I just traded 11 Kribs ;all raised from fry, third and fourth generation) because they tore up my tank. All the other fish including two angels lived in one corner while a male and his partner and a third female fought it out to spawn. And it was constant. I took out the pair and three more stepped up and took their places. I’m so relieved to have a calm tank though I will say the Kribs are stunning and very interesting, and they make incredible parents.

 

[PeterFishKeepin]

Thank you for all your opinions and now ts better off to not try dwarf cichlids I guess.....

I'll see where I can try get Shellie?

 

[TClare]

You could have just one dwarf cichlid in your community tank. Or if you really want to breed the Shellies would be an option, but not with the other fish you have.

 

[Linda1234]

Thank you for all your opinions and now ts better off to not try dwarf cichlids I guess.....

I'll see where I can try get Shellie?

If you try shelli read up on the type of water they require and make sure you can match it... they are fairly hearty in the right environment but in the wrong environment they will at best struggle.

 

[Chris1212]

I have a single male krib in my 20g community and he doesn't bother anyone. Probably the same for a single ram. I'd never keep 2 in a community tank though.

 

[PeterFishKeepin]

i may just get a single apisto or Bolivian for now

 

[GlennO]

I'll see where I can try get Shellie?

If you're willing to buy online this shop has some of the best range and prices. If you look through the African Cichlid category you'll find 4 or 5 different types of shellies.

African Cichlids – Aquarium Central

They are not cheap but if you can save up for a pair you might be able to get a small colony going and also make a few dollars out of them.

 

[PeterFishKeepin]

If you're willing to buy online this shop has some of the best range and prices. If you look through the African Cichlid category you'll find 4 or 5 different types of shellies.

African Cichlids – Aquarium Central

They are not cheap but if you can save up for a pair you might be able to get a small colony going and also make a few dollars out of them.

interesting, i believe ive been on their website before...


i see a lot of cool shell dwellers and some julies the shellies are from like 30-60$AUD each while the julies are $10-40 AUD each so could I do julies or would they get a bit too big for 20gallon high??

 

[GlennO]

interesting, i believe ive been on their website before...


i see a lot of cool shell dwellers and some julies the shellies are from like 30-60$AUD each while the julies are $10-40 AUD each so could I do julies or would they get a bit too big for 20gallon high??

I think you could do a pair of julies in a 20 gal. Transcriptus are one of the smallest. They might be more shy and less visible than shellies though, requiring rockwork and caves.

 

[PeterFishKeepin]

I think you could do a pair of julies in a 20 gal. Transcriptus are one of the smallest. They might be more shy and less visible than shellies though, requiring rockwork and caves.

would they be able to breed and create a nice colony in a 20 gal tall or would shellies be better off in that size?

 

[GlennO]

would they be able to breed and create a nice colony in a 20 gal tall or would shellies be better off in that size?

I don't think you could have more than one pair in a 20, you'd have to remove the young ones as they reached saleable size and before maturity. Shellies are probably better for a colony.

 

[PeterFishKeepin]

I don't think you could have more than one pair in a 20, you'd have to remove the young ones as they reached saleable size and before maturity.

is that the case for julies and shellies?

 

[GlennO]

is that the case for julies and shellies?

I think shellies are much more social, though haven't tried them myself. I think you could have a couple of males and a few females in a 20 gal.

 

[Flyfisha]

Before Covid stopped auctions I was selling multies often.
They do not eat their young but when extremely overcrowded I believe the juveniles eat the smaller babies or the parents finally stop breeding?

When I emptied my 82 litre / 22 gallon tall I had 82 adults and only a handful of small fry.
Keeping the adults at no more than 50 saw dozens of babies of all sizes.

I was successful with soft water with Texas holy rock. My local club members don’t even use the rock. Buy all means give them African cichlids hard water with a high mineral content.

 

[PeterFishKeepin]

thanks that helpful, my ph is 7.2 from tap so with some ph booster rocks and some crushed coral and stuff I think I could match it to where it should be.

i like the shellies idea, do lfs here in Australia like them and easily want them off you or are they declined?

 

[GlennO]

When I emptied my 82 litre / 22 gallon tall I had 82 adults and only a handful of small fry.

Wow...didn't know they could be bred and kept in that sort of density...wonder why they are still so expensive in the shops.

 

[Flyfisha]

You would have to build a relationship with any shop. Giving free fish at first. Getting store credit eventually.

I can’t say what your area is like. In my town University students can only have small tanks.
Money makes the world go round.

They should not be expensive at all. GlennO I was under pressure from other local breeders to not sell cheap.

 

[PeterFishKeepin]

Thanks all so maybe I'll try shellies depending on available stock.

How do you go about get shells for then, online, in lfs

 

[KribensisLover1]

If you're willing to buy online this shop has some of the best range and prices. If you look through the African Cichlid category you'll find 4 or 5 different types of shellies.

African Cichlids – Aquarium Central

They are not cheap but if you can save up for a pair you might be able to get a small colony going and also make a few dollars out of them.

Why are the tropheus Duboisi so expensive?

 

[TClare]

I like the idea of the pair of Julidochromis. But to keep them, or shell dwellers you would not be able to keep your existing fish.

 

[veggieshark]

Surprising to me, but a friend of mine successfully kept breeding Julie's (I think transcriptus but not sure) in a community tank. It was a 300 liter tank. It was deep and planted but Julie's also had enough cover at the bottom to claim a territory. Other fish were off the mill community (swordtails, plecos, mollies, etc). I think it only worked because other fish had space to escape the Julie's (and everyone prayed on each other's offspring). I am only saying this for the record, I would not recommend such a tank.

 

[TClare]

Surprising to me, but a friend of mine successfully kept breeding Julie's (I think transcriptus but not sure) in a community tank. It was a 300 liter tank. It was deep and planted but Julie's also had enough cover at the bottom to claim a territory. Other fish were off the mill community (swordtails, plecos, mollies, etc). I think it only worked because other fish had space to escape the Julie's (and everyone prayed on each other's offspring). I am only saying this for the record, I would not recommend such a tank.

It would possibly be OK with swordtails and mollies, but not the tetras which would not do well in the harder, higher pH water that the Julies need.

 

[86 ssinit]

Ok I just getting here . Check any site on German blue rams and you’ll find a 20g is fine. Some plants and caves and you’ll be fine. Yes a bigger tank is always better but your not there yet. Me personally I’ve kept 5 in a 29 with angels,corys,neons and serpaes for years together (all done before I came onto the internet and found all these odd rules ). At a temp of 78-79. The rams lived 5 yrs. So the temp was no problem. Being 5 they never bred. Lots of plants and caves. Each fish had its own spot in the tank.
I keep rams now at the 84-86 temp and they grow nice breed like crazy and die in 2 years. Neons can handle high temps too. Many discus keepers keep neons with discus. Been going on for ever. Lots of the stuff you read about fish is old info. I mean from the 30s. This info is all from wild caught fish. Nothing about captive bred fish.
Now as to successfully breeding them. Rams are not that easy to breed and successfully raise. So you have to decide on a community tank or breeding. If successful most lps will take rams. So moving them on should be easy. But I’d say just enjoy them first and when your ready try breeding them.

 

[Linda1234]

thanks that helpful, my ph is 7.2 from tap so with some ph booster rocks and some crushed coral and stuff I think I could match it to where it should be.

i like the shellies idea, do lfs here in Australia like them and easily want them off you or are they declined?

For various reasons ph is an awful indicator of water softness/hardness. You want to measure kh/gh/tds; either do it yourself or get the store to do it.

Ok I just getting here . Check any site on German blue rams and you’ll find a 20g is fine. Some plants and caves and you’ll be fine. Yes a bigger tank is always better but your not there yet. Me personally I’ve kept 5 in a 29 with angels,corys,neons and serpaes for years together (all done before I came onto the internet and found all these odd rules ). At a temp of 78-79. The rams lived 5 yrs. So the temp was no problem. Being 5 they never bred. Lots of plants and caves. Each fish had its own spot in the tank.
I keep rams now at the 84-86 temp and they grow nice breed like crazy and die in 2 years. Neons can handle high temps too. Many discus keepers keep neons with discus. Been going on for ever. Lots of the stuff you read about fish is old info. I mean from the 30s. This info is all from wild caught fish. Nothing about captive bred fish.
Now as to successfully breeding them. Rams are not that easy to breed and successfully raise. So you have to decide on a community tank or breeding. If successful most lps will take rams. So moving them on should be easy. But I’d say just enjoy them first and when your ready try breeding them.

Just as another data point; i had one male and 2 female gbr in a 120 and the first female hounded and eventually killed the 2nd female. I think a lot depends on the sexes of the fish and individual fishes will have different behavior.
-
A single male or a couple of male gbr are fine i think but i would not want more than a pair if you mix sexes in a 20 - unless you go the packem route. I'm also not a fan of angels in a 29 as my males get quite large - though most females would be quite comfortable in a 29. I will say that the home bred males are quite a bit larger than store purchased males so that makes a difference (I think it has to do with the food they get as fry but maybe it is genetic - not sure).

 

[Flyfisha]

Escargot shells are sold in the restaurant trade at various prices, shop around.

As always PeterFishKeepin remember our Australian fish are just a bit different because of what’s available with no new blood being imported and the names we often use have slightly different meanings.

I think the German blue rams sold in Petbarn ($15 Australian ) and commonly called blue rams are weak and difficult for anyone to keep alive in my local soft water.
The fish sold by independent stores as German blues ($45 or more Australian) are longer finned and much more colourful in the fins as they contain some German breeders bloodline.
I have heard stories that the hormones used in commercial breeding are partly responsible for the death rate but have no idea if that’s a fact?

Our angels are from a mixed bloodline of 3 or more species and I believe they are quite different to the US. I don’t claim any real knowledge about Aussie angels or those from Thailand.

I would be interested to hear from anyone in the northern hemisphere if they have “rainbow rams “ for sale as a colour variation or if that is just a local name.