Converting From African Cichlids To Schooling 80 Gallon

[jsracz]

Hi Everyone! First post. I've been keeping several large african cichlid tanks for over 20 years. 3 220 gallon, 3 120 gallon and some smaller ones. To be honest I'm kind of bored with them and looking to do something totally different with one of the 80 gallon tanks. Was hoping to do a schooling setup. Right now I'm running two canister filters, two small wavemakers there's cichlid sand currently in there. PH is a stable 8.2 from the faucet and I always treat the water with Prime when doing water changes. I don't think it's easy or a good idea to mess with the PH to lower it (correct?) I believe it being stable is most important) With the Africans I do large 75% water changes weekly. Admittedly I have no idea where to start because it will all be new to me. I understand I will need to change the substrate to something else (suggestions please). Should I leave the filters alone (will that help when it comes to the water already being cycled or will it be detrimental because the bio in them was created by Africans). I understand I think that I need to put pre-filters on the on the intakes (right?). The tank currently is hardscaped with rocks. (they need to go, correct?) To be honest I'm pretty obsessed with crystal clear water. I also think the concensus is less water changes but I don't really know what that means when it comes to %'s and frequency.

I would greatly appreciate some guidance here. The last thing I want to do is wing it and literally kill a bunch of fish fumbling my way through it all. I've been looking at a bunch of youtube vids and scanning forums, to be honest there's a bunch of conflicting stuff out there. I found this site and am very impressed with what I saw. I will need to get the fish online. The availability here from LFS is incredibly weak literally impossible.

Anybody willing to help guide me here, I have the Cichlids mastered at this point even having moved the tanks twice and not losing a single fish out of over 100. But I'm clueless outside of that world.

Thank you in advance!

 

[Noroomforshoe]

Hi, I can answer a few of the questions.

If your filters are cycled, it doesnt matter wat cycled them.

The substrate that you keep depends on what fish you want to keep, some fish care, some dont. Same with rocks and decoration, pictures and discription would help.

 

[jsracz]

Thank you on the good news on the filters. I'm actually going to physically replace the whole tank, there's seems to be a possible small leak in this one on the top rim. Going to give it to a friend for his bearded dragons. I already have the new replacement tank here. So essentially I will be starting new when it comes to substrate, plants (cichlids eat most plants in my experience, so I have no knowledge there) but having the two canister cycled filters. Right now it's white/black cichlid sand (which I'm tired of so looking to change it). I don't know exactly what fish other than colorful and with a pack mentality. Things like cardinals, harlequin rasboras, rummynose, corys. Still looking for suggestions though when it comes to the fish, plants. The new tank with have a black back panel. Current satellite LED lighting with the option to pretty much dozens of options to set the actual lighting. When physically changing out the tanks I will keep the filters running on another tank. I already started to slowly transition the fish that are in there into other tanks and took out alot of the rocks already to. So there's not much to see, I'm basically starting with a clean slate.

 

[A201]

I also kept African Cichlids for several years, and simply grew tired of all the woes that come with them.

Coincidentally, my local water is hard with a PH of 8.2. My hardscape consists of approximately 150 lbs. of honeycomb limestone. The substrate is a bed of small grain rounded river gravel.

When I converted the setup to a community / schooling type, I kept everything exactly the same, except the fish. Filtration, substrate & hardscape no change.

There are plenty of Tetras that will do fine with an 8.2 PH, in particular
Columbian & Diamonds. Although I have kept Teras many times over the years, this time I decided to go with Barbs & Loaches.

Current stock: Filamentosa Barbs, Denison Barbs, Platinum Tiger Barbs, Black Ruby Barbs & Rosy Barbs. The Loaches include YoYo's & Kubotai as well as a few predatory varieties.

You might give some of those species a try. They are beautiful and are very durable.

Good luck on your new adventure.

 

[jsracz]

Thank you so much!! This is very helpful.

I use to load the bigger tanks with hundreds of pounds big rocks but pretty quicky felt they took away too much space so I removed almst all of them. I wanted to see the fish it's worked out well, just bored. Those tanks are diffentently overstocked (males only), but I have no issue doing water changes every week. I'll still have a handful of those tanks, although as the fish die off I don't replace them. Going forward I do want to change the substrate for sure, even if it was just to something darker. Just not sure what that would need to be, do I need to have plants? I certainly don't have a green thumb. Don't want to over plant for sure again because I'm focused on seeing the fish but understand if these guys would prefer "some" plants. Probably don't have the right light currently. Like I said I already have a physically new tank, already cycled canister filters. Need to get a new heater. Like driftwood but not if it's going to cloud the water. I would go with the fake stuff and figure out some plants to glue to them I guess? Love the idea of mixing in loaches, have a handful of clown loaches in the other tanks.

Can I ask where you get your fish from, as for LFS here they really don't exist, I get the cichlids from SC and FL.

 

[A201]

I don't keep plants either.some of the fish I keep are vegetarians.

I only use heaters if an emergency arises. Most Barbs & Loaches, excluding Clowns, do well at normal room temperature.

I buy my fish locally.

 

[Noroomforshoe]

I have bought fish from Aquahuna 3 times with good results and nothing going wrong. I also baught a school of sunset dwarf rainbow fish from an e-bay seller and they were great fish!
It might be best to use pay Pal if you purchase fish online, as I had a bad experiance from a different store in the past.

 

[GlennO]

You mentioned your tap pH being 8.2. It might be best to avoid tetras and rasboras. It would suit many rainbowfish.

 

[DaveKS]

Thank you so much!! This is very helpful.

I use to load the bigger tanks with hundreds of pounds big rocks but pretty quicky felt they took away too much space so I removed almst all of them. I wanted to see the fish it's worked out well, just bored. Those tanks are diffentently overstocked (males only), but I have no issue doing water changes every week. I'll still have a handful of those tanks, although as the fish die off I don't replace them. Going forward I do want to change the substrate for sure, even if it was just to something darker. Just not sure what that would need to be, do I need to have plants? I certainly don't have a green thumb. Don't want to over plant for sure again because I'm focused on seeing the fish but understand if these guys would prefer "some" plants. Probably don't have the right light currently. Like I said I already have a physically new tank, already cycled canister filters. Need to get a new heater. Like driftwood but not if it's going to cloud the water. I would go with the fake stuff and figure out some plants to glue to them I guess? Love the idea of mixing in loaches, have a handful of clown loaches in the other tanks.

Can I ask where you get your fish from, as for LFS here they really don't exist, I get the cichlids from SC and FL.

Celebes Rainbows would be a good one for harder water, max out at about 2.5+”. Stunning fish. They can go full on estuarine but actually prefer the fresher end, they do prefer some perimeter plants to dart into when startled. Males have spiked fin rays they poke up and do displays against other males where they circle around each other, all display, no real fighting.

“The Celebs Rainbowfish are known to thrive in tanks where the pH is between 7-8, and the hardness of water is between 12-18 DGH. The tank temperature must be 22-28 degrees Celsius (72–82 degrees Fahrenheit).”

Also for smaller schooling fish your probably going need to rethink water circulation compared to what your use to currently. More dispersed, gentler currents around tank.

In that size tank a Aponogeton Ulvaceus bulb plant would be stunning and easily handle harder water parameters. Not overly demanding on light but just good medium light. Also being a crown plant not a lot of work keeping it tidy, just follow older fading leaves down to base and pinch them off there. That bright lime green is a real show stopper.

Then maybe 3-4 stalks of hygrophila corymbosa (giant temple plant) to fill it out.

Both easy plants and easy to grow/manage.

https://www.fishlaboratory.com/fish/celebes-rainbowfish/

PS: And to me some wood and a little leaf litter is almost mandatory in this type setup for schooling fish. Wood does not make your water clouded. Just a faint yellow tinge. Tannins and humic/fulvic acids they provide are part of every nature freshwater ecosystem on the planet.

 

[TClare]

I would avoid cardinals and rummynose tetras and other Amazonian and Orinoco species that really need soft water. There are some tetra species that may do Ok, but in general Rainbowfish are more suited to your water, and I believe some barb species would be fine as well.

 

[jsracz]

Thank you all I appreciate the ongoing information provided and am taking notes for sure. I know this has been discussed on this forum alot before but I have some diffculty understanding it. (I suffered a brain injury 7 years ago in an accident which has really impacted my ability to learn new things and retain even things I read over and over, actually makes it almost impossible and incredibly frustrating.)

So I have another question.

I test the tap water every time before I do the weekly water changes and like I mentioned it's been 8.2 consistantly for 7 years. What I haven't done in years is test the water once in the tank over that time. With the african like I said I do about 80% changes. I just tested the ph in the other 6 large tanks and their 7.8 each tank identical. Any ideas how that happens? Each tank is over filtered with the returns breaking the surface and the wave makers doing the same. So there's a lot of surface agitation for sure.

Off gassing(?) which I don't understand, my apologies. With doing much smaller % water changes in the future that should help correct? Not saying I'm going to go ahead with cardinals and rasboras by any means. I came here looking to learn to do this right and harming fish is the last thing I want to do.

 

[Noroomforshoe]

Hi, so you have one tank with 8.0 ph and other tanks with 7.8?
My guess is that either you have some sort of rock or driftwood or different substrate in the one tank?

If not then did you test the water of the one tank ealier or later, then the others? I mean, did you let the water from this or any of the other tanks sit out before testing?

From what i understand, Off gassing happens when you have decaying matter trapped in deep substrate. and it smells like rotten eggs after a water change.
I deffinitly do not know a lot about this, what i do know is that keeping less/one inch or less/ sand or substrate is one way to avoid it. Keeping fish that sift through the sand like kuhli loaches can help. Using your gravel vacuum in evert corner and possible gass trap can stop them before they develop, Its not about how much water you change its about how well you vacuum. I keep only a quarter inch of gravel in my tank to avoid issues like these.

 

[DaveKS]

Hi, so you have one tank with 8.0 ph and other tanks with 7.8?
My guess is that either you have some sort of rock or driftwood or different substrate in the one tank?

If not then did you test the water of the one tank ealier or later, then the others? I mean, did you let the water from this or any of the other tanks sit out before testing?

From what i understand, Off gassing happens when you have decaying matter trapped in deep substrate. and it smells like rotten eggs after a water change.
I deffinitly do not know a lot about this, what i do know is that keeping less/one inch or less/ sand or substrate is one way to avoid it. Keeping fish that sift through the sand like kuhli loaches can help. Using your gravel vacuum in evert corner and possible gass trap can stop them before they develop, Its not about how much water you change its about how well you vacuum. I keep only a quarter inch of gravel in my tank to avoid issues like these.

Offgassing is referring to letting your water set overnight/24hrs in a bucket or tub (bigger the surface area of the container the faster this will happen) and letting it equalize to atmospheric CO2 and oxygen levels. Water straight out of tap is not in equilibrium with atmospheric gases. Usually, like say in this poster’s circumstance, he may get a reading of 8.2 right out of tap but let water set and absorb gasses overnight and let it come fully up to room temperature next day water it may read as 7.8 as PH.

Stirring a few times, or adding a pump or simple bubble wand will also speed this up.

 

[jsracz]

Offgassing is referring to letting your water set overnight/24hrs in a bucket or tub (bigger the surface area of the container the faster this will happen) and letting it equalize to atmospheric CO2 and oxygen levels. Water straight out of tap is not in equilibrium with atmospheric gases. Usually, like say in this poster’s circumstance, he may get a reading of 8.2 right out of tap but let water set and absorb gasses overnight and let it come fully up to room temperature next day water it may read as 7.8 as PH.

Stirring a few times, or adding a pump or simple bubble wand will also speed this up.

Thank you Dave.

Out of the facet is 8.2.

Sitting in a bucket for over 24 hours and stirring occassionally it's still 8.2.

However if the larger tanks (5) I currently have (not planted) African tanks where I did 80% water changes 5 days ago they all are 7.8 across the board. I do those weekly. No wood, very limited rocks, more like next to nothing. They do have Carib-Sea african cichlid mix sand which I believe if anything would raise ph a bit, although I believe it's supposed to stabilize existing PH. Off the description for that sand "be aware that it is designed to increase and stabilize pH"

 

[TClare]

A build up of nitrates may be causing the pH to drop in the tanks. In any case it is still fairly high and the comments on suitable fish still hold. Gradual changes in pH within this range will not be a problem.

 

[DaveKS]

Thank you Dave.

Out of the facet is 8.2.

Sitting in a bucket for over 24 hours and stirring occassionally it's still 8.2.

However if the larger tanks (5) I currently have (not planted) African tanks where I did 80% water changes 5 days ago they all are 7.8 across the board. I do those weekly. No wood, very limited rocks, more like next to nothing. They do have Carib-Sea african cichlid mix sand which I believe if anything would raise ph a bit, although I believe it's supposed to stabilize existing PH. Off the description for that sand "be aware that it is designed to increase and stabilize pH"

In a tank that is established, decomposition from food waste will add Mild DOC compounds to water will which break down into humic and fulvic acids and buffer your PH. If you want to speed this process up ahead of time in your change water prep tank simply add a bag of cattapa, pin oak, well dried acorn caps, Sera aquarium peat etc in a small bag to change water prep tank, circulation helps.

Many advantages to doing this ahead of time in water prep tank besides buffering against PH shifts in tank including making iron and other macro/micro elements more bio-available to plants and live stock to use/absorb.

One thing is constant, humic and fulvic acids will always be present in some ratio in the water column from deep artic/antartic salt water at high pressure to 14” deep Amazon tributaries. It will always be present.

Quit trying to improve upon a system that nature has spent millions of years refining because you will fail again and again.

 

[jsracz]

Thanks, wasn't doing anything more than trying to make sure I did the right thing by the fish that I have never kept before while knowing that their parameters are different than the Africans Dave while trying to understand it all. Overthinking on my part, sure I guess,certainly not looking to break anything. But again was looking for guidance and have got some for sure. Starting out with cycled filters and going from there having to choose a new substrate, swapping the physical tank itself, adding some small plants while not going into it being a fully planted tank with the plants taking up a large foot print. Trying to learn about the level of water movement necessary, I'm sure it's less that what I currently have, they type of ideal lighting. I'm not in a hurry to throw the fish into the tank. Literally going to be building from the ground up other than the filters. I appreciate your scientific detailed breakdown of the water chemistry.

 

[A201]

A very large percentage of aquarium fish are bred in the mineral rich water of commercial Florida hatcheries.

The water parameter tolerance of hatchery fish often greatly differs from those of their wild caught relatives.

You're going to be able to keep many varieties of Tetras, Barbs, ect. without any adjustments to water chemistry.

 

[jsracz]

Thank you very much, that was something I was wondering about. Dan's Fish for example where I have seen mostly good reviews about them makes a point to say most of their fish are captive breed and they're at 8.3 on the ph side in all their tanks. I understand not everybody will agree or like that at all.