Biz's Black German Ram Breeding Journal :-) - Page 27

coralbandit

So what would come out of a black ram breeding with a german blue ram? I have a pair that spawned last night.
Usually normal looking GBR rams ..
Getting the dark black is not easy ...
 

tfreema

Interesting. The GBR breeder in our club is getting about 50% black rams breeding 2 black GBRs. The darkness is variable with some being really light and others darker. One I really like has rich red fins, a lot of blue in the face, but really dark body.

He is the one who has had the electric blue with orange head variation with striking orange colors as well. He seems to have the magic touch with rams and angelfish.
 

Daisytattoo

So I searched black rams on google and stumbled across this thread. I just spent 3 hours reading the whole thing like a book. The ups! The downs! And a happy ending. Wow. Best thread I’ve seen in years. I’ve been a member of another forum since 2006 but tonight I signed up here because of this post. I appreciate the commodore among aquarists I saw here tonight. And Biz, you pushed through! I felt your excitement and disappointments as I read. I’m so happy you succeeded! And despite the fact I’ve been fishkeeping for 20 years, I learned A LOT tonight. So thank you for keeping up with this thread and pushing through!
 

bizaliz3

So I searched black rams on google and stumbled across this thread. I just spent 3 hours reading the whole thing like a book. The ups! The downs! And a happy ending. Wow. Best thread I’ve seen in years. I’ve been a member of another forum since 2006 but tonight I signed up here because of this post. I appreciate the commodore among aquarists I saw here tonight. And Biz, you pushed through! I felt your excitement and disappointments as I read. I’m so happy you succeeded! And despite the fact I’ve been fishkeeping for 20 years, I learned A LOT tonight. So thank you for keeping up with this thread and pushing through!

Wow! Thank you Daisytattoo !! This post made me smile so big!! Thanks for taking the time to read through my whole journey! I think its awesome that you learned from it even despite all your years in this hobby. It goes to show we really never do stop learning in this hobby! I'm glad to hear that the thread encouraged you to join fishlore! There are a lot of great people here and we just gained another!! Welcome to the forum!
 

Block134

I too have just made an account so I can follow this thread and learn from all of the great info in it.

About a month ago I was able to get two pair of dark rams from a local guy near me in the upper north east who is trying to breed them as well. I have mine paired up in their own tanks and just noticed yesterday that one of the females has an egg tube showing and the male is getting protective and an area near the back corner that looks to be dug out. Hopefully I will have some eggs soon so I can try my luck at this.

Some info I was given was that BB rams tend to me small and weak compared to Bb and the bb rams. The Bb rams tend to grow faster then the BB rams but slower then the bb rams. It was also recommended to cross in a gold ram or a black/dark ram from a different breeder after a few generations of breeding to help prevent inbreeding.

When I get home from work today I will see about starting my own journal thread and post some pics!!! Thanks for all of the good info in this thread!!

BB=True Black(two black genes)
Bb=Black(one black one yellow? gene)
bb=Yellow(no black gene?)
 

Marinus

Well, I'm jumping on the 'I'm new here and just made an account to follow this epic saga' wagon. Seriously though this was an amazing thread to read and I came across it while looking through google for all things Black Ram related. I am seriously looking at adding a pair of black rams (eventually) to my new tank but I'm not 100% sold on them vs the regular german blue. I'm still debating which I'll end up adding but, luckily, I've got time to decide and I'm not in any rush.

Anyway, seriously thank you so much for sharing your story with us. Reading about your successes and failures was great and I was so rooting for you the whole way, especially since I think you mentioned you are from MN and I gotta support my fellow Minnesotans. About halfway through when you said you were done and not breeding rams I was so disappointed, I was sure that you could figure it out, but I hoped that (since there were still many pages left to read) you might switch your mind or something else would happen to keep you trying. I was beyond happy when you did just that and gave it another try thanks to some support and help from another breeder. And now, success!! Congrats on the journey and finally being able to get everything right. I look forward to seeing more updates and watching those babies grow and develop!
 

JLeeM

How are your baby rams doing now Biz?
 

bizaliz3

Well, I'm jumping on the 'I'm new here and just made an account to follow this epic saga' wagon. Seriously though this was an amazing thread to read and I came across it while looking through google for all things Black Ram related. I am seriously looking at adding a pair of black rams (eventually) to my new tank but I'm not 100% sold on them vs the regular german blue. I'm still debating which I'll end up adding but, luckily, I've got time to decide and I'm not in any rush.

Anyway, seriously thank you so much for sharing your story with us. Reading about your successes and failures was great and I was so rooting for you the whole way, especially since I think you mentioned you are from MN and I gotta support my fellow Minnesotans. About halfway through when you said you were done and not breeding rams I was so disappointed, I was sure that you could figure it out, but I hoped that (since there were still many pages left to read) you might switch your mind or something else would happen to keep you trying. I was beyond happy when you did just that and gave it another try thanks to some support and help from another breeder. And now, success!! Congrats on the journey and finally being able to get everything right. I look forward to seeing more updates and watching those babies grow and develop!

Thank you so much!!! All these warm posts congratulating me on my success.....it is so heartwarming!! It is reminding me just how far I had come! I haven't been very active on this thread over the last few months and my focus has been on my angelfish. I kind of forgot just how big of a deal all these ram babies (young adults now) are! haha. I need to go back and read it all and remind myself how much support I had and how far I came!

MINNESOTA HUH?? There are so few Minnesotans on here! Are you located near the cities??? I can lead you to a shop that regularly carries the black rams! (and a couple other really great fish stores!) I also have a ton of young rams left that are already sexable. They have a black dad and a non-black mom. (but the mom had black parents I believe) I am located just north of downtown st. paul if you want to buy some of my rams, or angels! The angels I will be selling in the next couple months will be sexually mature adults from my KEEPERS. So they are really excellent specimens. I wish I could keep them all!!

You should also plan to come to the Minnesota Aquarium society auction in October. Those are really fun!

Some info I was given was that BB rams tend to me small and weak compared to Bb and the bb rams. The Bb rams tend to grow faster then the BB rams but slower then the bb rams. It was also recommended to cross in a gold ram or a black/dark ram from a different breeder after a few generations of breeding to help prevent inbreeding.

BB=True Black(two black genes)
Bb=Black(one black one yellow? gene)
bb=Yellow(no black gene?)

I am still skeptical that there is such a thing as a black and a double black. With angelfish there is....but I am not sure about with these rams. I say this because the results of the fry do not indicate this. Two black rams....even if they are both "single darks"....should produce 50% black babies. And that just hasn't been the case for people who have bred blacks. In fact, I think adding gold rams to the mix INCREASES the number of black babies. coralbandit Remind me what your results were when breeding two blacks....And what you have learned about them and what they produce.

As for the dark ones being weaker....I did find that to be true with my ram babies. The darker ones grew significantly slower and several did not make it past the first few weeks. I only lost darker ones. No lighter ones.

How are your baby rams doing now Biz?

Thanks for asking!!
They are doing excellent. I have tons of sexable ones and even had a couple that paired up and spawned in the grow out. I think I mentioned that. lol

They are 5.5 months old. I brought a bag of them to the LFS, I sold a M/F pair on craigslist, and I brought 3 M/F pairs to a minI auction for the MN aquarium society.

I am still left with like 30 of them. What I have left consists of the ones I want to keep (which is like 5 or so) and the rest are the ones that have a little more growing to do.

I would like to breed rams again in the future. But I am taking a break at the moment while I focus on my angelfish. What was most important to me was succeeding at least once. Now that I know I can do it, I am not in a super big hurry to make more! haha

When I do breed rams again, I think I want to use my male EBR with one of my darker females
 

coralbandit

Finding a pair of blacks that produces 50% "darks" I believe is completely unheard of except from Marco who does not sell in US at all..?
I have the supposed "DD" blacks and they produce less then 50% dark and the rest is gold .How those fry breed I do not know yet .
All my golds came like my "DD" blacks as the 7 survivors [ 9/11/18 in my thread] from Danzinger black rams AFTER hundreds if not thousands of blacks that could not color up like the dark at all .
If you breed one of these golds to a dark black [note I can not claim the dark is "DD" ] you get 50% easy darks and the rest golds .From my reading of Marcos experience those darks only carry the "DD" 25% at best and there is no way by looking or color to tell who is and isn't .
That is the whole thing with the "DD" . Liz knows I am not understanding genetics but there is still no way to tell by looking if a dark ram is "DD" ?
Marco claimed to lock them in yet the creator Shahar Danzinger [Marcos original supplier] still has not locked them in or completely understands them as understand ??
I don't think they breed true yet here in the US??
I have not seen ONE breeder that had darks like mine yet ?
Not sure what comes from these fish ,they are not easy at all...

Maybe someone will soon and if so I hope I know who will be first !
What do I know though huh ! Here's some of my guys !
My F1s

jo6zrhVl.jpg
My F2 from F1;

2k6hxlYl.jpg
My Gold & Dark black;

qBV0Extl.jpg
Like I said what do I know ? I like rams and they like me back ...
 

Marinus

Thank you so much!!! All these warm posts congratulating me on my success.....it is so heartwarming!! It is reminding me just how far I had come! I haven't been very active on this thread over the last few months and my focus has been on my angelfish. I kind of forgot just how big of a deal all these ram babies (young adults now) are! haha. I need to go back and read it all and remind myself how much support I had and how far I came!

MINNESOTA HUH?? There are so few Minnesotans on here! Are you located near the cities??? I can lead you to a shop that regularly carries the black rams! (and a couple other really great fish stores!) I also have a ton of young rams left that are already sexable. They have a black dad and a non-black mom. (but the mom had black parents I believe) I am located just north of downtown st. paul if you want to buy some of my rams, or angels! The angels I will be selling in the next couple months will be sexually mature adults from my KEEPERS. So they are really excellent specimens. I wish I could keep them all!!

You should also plan to come to the Minnesota Aquarium society auction in October. Those are really fun!

bizaliz3 - I am located near the cities! Just south of the cities actually but I work a little closer to the north end of things. I'm guessing you probably don't live that far from me if you are north of downtown. I also would love to hear your recommendations on shops and I wonder if they are not some of the shops that I already visit. If I have the opportunity to buy though you and have a pair of your "legacy fish"....hey I don't know if I could pass that up!! I am so excited to get some rams in my tank I can barely stand it. Water parameters are still all reading steady and if that continues through the end of the week I'm calling this tank cycled. As for the angelfish....I've always loved angels but never owned them. I'm afraid that with my current setup (32.5 gal tank) that I wouldn't be giving them adequate room considering I want my pair of rams and cardinal tetras.

I just saw something about the Minnesota Aquarium Society and the auction. I would love to go but I can't seem to find anything about the date/time on the website...do I need to be a member to see that info?
 

bizaliz3

That is the whole thing with the "DD" . Liz knows I am not understanding genetics but there is still no way to tell by looking if a dark ram is "DD" ?

See that's the thing "D/D" is in angelfish. I don't know how it works with rams. With angels, the dark gene and the gold gene are on the same locus.

So you can have DD or D/g or g/g (the marble genes for angels are also on this same locus but we aren't talking marble right now)

Are dark and gold on the same locus on a ram as well? I don't think so personally. Because if it were, it would be nice and simple. You could use punnet squares or genetic calculators just like with angels. A DD would create 100% single darks. Regardless who it is paired with. A D/D and a D/D should make 100% D/Ds.

What I do find very interesting is that the gold rams are involved in this. It is very similar to angels in that the gold gene makes a single dark angel look like a double dark angel. So if you put a DD and a g/g together you get 100% D/g which will look almost like a double dark, because the dark gene dominates the gold gene.

So I just find it interesting that gold and dark together provide more dark with both the rams and the angels.

I am leaning towards the dark rams simply being selective breeding. Sort of like breeding koi angels selectively to get the most vibrant color with the most coverage. The genetic code of the full coverage red koi angels is exactly the same as the genetic code for a panda koi...which has ZERO color on it. Just black and white.

bizaliz3 - I am located near the cities! Just south of the cities actually but I work a little closer to the north end of things. I'm guessing you probably don't live that far from me if you are north of downtown. I also would love to hear your recommendations on shops and I wonder if they are not some of the shops that I already visit. If I have the opportunity to buy though you and have a pair of your "legacy fish"....hey I don't know if I could pass that up!! I am so excited to get some rams in my tank I can barely stand it. Water parameters are still all reading steady and if that continues through the end of the week I'm calling this tank cycled. As for the angelfish....I've always loved angels but never owned them. I'm afraid that with my current setup (32.5 gal tank) that I wouldn't be giving them adequate room considering I want my pair of rams and cardinal tetras.

I just saw something about the Minnesota Aquarium Society and the auction. I would love to go but I can't seem to find anything about the date/time on the website...do I need to be a member to see that info?

The auction last week was a bust. So you didn't miss anything. But the one in October is an all day auction on a Saturday and there is always a huge turnout for the October auction. All the people itching to get back into the hobby after taking a break over the summer. Go to the MN aquarium society website for more details on that.

But ya, if you are interested in a pair or two of my rams, let me know!! I've got a few pairs left!

I'll send you a PM about the stores and stuff so we don't bother the non-Minnesotans. haha

Oh and as for the angels....I think a 32g is ok for a single angel, a school of tetras and a pair of rams. But no pressure! haha

EDIT: Never mind!! I can't PM you because you haven't had 50 posts yet....so here is what I said but wasn't able to send...

I love finding local people here! its so rare. There are a ton of east coasters here. But not many Midwesterners.

My favorite store at the moment is Quality Aquatics. Its has the best selection with the best prices and a super clean environment.

I also like Forest Lake Pets a lot.

Tamed waters is a nice shop, but pretty small.

There are a few shops south of the cities over on the Minneapolis side that I don't go to because they are just too far for me.

But Quality aquatics is the best in my opinion.

I live in Little Canada which borders Roseville. If you are interested in getting some rams, let me know!
 

Marinus

Hey Biz! I was going to say something in my last post about not having enough posts to do the PM thing yet! I obviously don't want to just spam posts around so it might take me a bit to actually get to the 50 post mark. Hahah. That said once I get there I'll probably shoot you a PM and we can maybe chat about Minnesota fish and the like.

I'll need to keep an eye out about the October auction, I would love to go to it and I have a friend that would be interested as well, hopefully we will both be there. I plan on adding a pair of rams to my tank and getting two that have already paired off would be easier than crossing my fingers and picking from the LFS.

I might have to stop by Quality Aquatics and check them out sometime, they are a little further away from me (about a half hour) but that's not terrible...haha. I have been to Tamed Waters and I've had good experiences there so far, they had a whole bunch of the black rams which were really nice looking, and they carry the traditional GBR and electric varieties.

I actually work over in Oakdale so not that far from you! Maybe we can figure something out about me getting a pair of rams from you!
 

bizaliz3

Well it's been a few months of inactivity here since I've taken a break from breeding rams for the time being.

But I just wanted to show you all a pic of one of my 6 keepers from the ones I bred and raised!

Such a beauty!!
20191112_012319.jpg
 

tfreema

Very nice! We have a great breeder with out club that breeds all the varieties of rams. I will be getting some in the future when I can fit them into the stock of the tanks I am keeping up permanently
 

bizaliz3

Very nice! We have a great breeder with out club that breeds all the varieties of rams. I will be getting some in the future when I can fit them into the stock of the tanks I am keeping up permanently

I've grown very attracted to the gold Rams. I think they are underrated! I'll probably get some golds one day!
 

tfreema

I've grown very attracted to the gold Rams. I think they are underrated! I'll probably get some golds one day!

I really like the black rams and the orange head ones. The breeder in our group has some orange heads that the orange is really vibrant.
 

jenmur

I love the colors and how she is bisected with them! And all sparkly on the fins
 

bizaliz3

It's been another 4 months. I just wanted to share a pic of one of my non-black keepers. I love how orange he is!!
20200307_224333.jpg
20200307_224208.jpg
 

Krishorner84

What was your water parameters and TDS please?
 

JayAlva

Loved this thread wish I would of found it before I ordered some fish from an unreliable breeder my first time. Ended up finding coralbandit through another recommendation and wow his reputation is very well founded. Im not a breeder I just really liked this fish. But was impressed by bizaliz commitment and coralbandit generousity with his knowledge and fish. I Attached a picture of a pair I got and I was blown away at the quality. Very good thread read from page 1 to the end glad it ended in success.
 

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