Biz's Black German Ram Breeding Journal :-) - Page 25

CaptAnnDuchow

Just a quick video for you all to see the cloud of rams in their 20g


They are doing so well! I don't need to shut off the filter and spot feed anymore. They all go hunting for bbs rather than waiting for it to be in their face. Its such a good feeling!!

Who wants to zoom in on this photo and get a count for me??? Lol
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Here...I'll zoom in for you. Lol

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There are some behind the java fern too. So it won't be an entirely accurate count.
I counted 80 but got lost so I may be wrong lol
 

DeniseF

Awesome! I am so excited! They are all doing SOOOO well. I can't stop grinning!!
Are your fry complete pigs! I mean I have had a few batches before and they always eat well, but these ones I am actually having to be very careful not to overfeed, they have literally picked the floor of the tank clean! There is one fry I swear its about to burst!
 

bizaliz3

Are your fry complete pigs! I mean I have had a few batches before and they always eat well, but these ones I am actually having to be very careful not to overfeed, they have literally picked the floor of the tank clean! There is one fry I swear its about to burst!

They do eat very very well. And I have been feeding them twice as much at one time than I did when they were in the breeder box. And they finish it all very fast. They are definitely little pigs!! I am starting to worry a bit about overfeeding. They look ready to burst after feeding time!

See!

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But honestly...my angel fry always look ready to burst at this stage too. I have never had an issue with overfeeding with them. But the rams are smaller and just different. So I hope my angelfish breeding habits don't affect them further. (like they did when I neglected to try dry food because of my angelfish fry experience haha)
 

JLeeM

They do eat very very well. And I have been feeding them twice as much at one time than I did when they were in the breeder box. And they finish it all very fast. They are definitely little pigs!! I am starting to worry a bit about overfeeding. They look ready to burst after feeding time!

See!

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But honestly...my angel fry always look ready to burst at this stage too. I have never had an issue with overfeeding with them. But the rams are smaller and just different. So I hope my angelfish breeding habits don't affect them further. (like they did when I neglected to try dry food because of my angelfish fry experience haha)
I wonder if you actually could overfeed them as fast as they grow?
 

DeniseF

They do eat very very well. And I have been feeding them twice as much at one time than I did when they were in the breeder box. And they finish it all very fast. They are definitely little pigs!! I am starting to worry a bit about overfeeding. They look ready to burst after feeding time!

See!

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But honestly...my angel fry always look ready to burst at this stage too. I have never had an issue with overfeeding with them. But the rams are smaller and just different. So I hope my angelfish breeding habits don't affect them further. (like they did when I neglected to try dry food because of my angelfish fry experience haha)
That's exactly what mine look like! They do just seem to be mostly bellies with eyes! Haha on the dried food - I never had angelfish babies but have always kept them (apart from now as my last one died and I no longer have space to QT any new ones!) they were always very fussy too!
 

bizaliz3

Such a wittle cutie pie!! Hehe
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jenmur

Such a wittle cutie pie!! Hehe
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In that picture definitely see nicely shaped fins. And yes, a very much cutie pie fishie
 

bizaliz3

Day 17 eating and free swimming

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DeniseF

Looking great and lovely shape to them!
 

CaptAnnDuchow

Day 17 eating and free swimming

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They are really filling in nicely. I'm so happy for you.
 

bizaliz3

Well I've got my first negative update. Its not horrible....yet....but it has potential to be if there is an actual problem.

So, I haven't had a single loss in the last couple weeks. Pretty much since a couple days after they started eating I have had no losses. Its been wonderful.

Today on my lunch break....there was a fry on the bottom on it's side. Still breathing, but dying. It did some somersaults when I put food in there, so it can't swim.

....losing one single fry here and there is perfectly normal. When you have like 70 fry, you are bound to have a couple stragglers that don't make it. So I am trying not to be paranoid or anything. It is just one!! All the rest of them look great. I am just extra nervous with these rams.
 

jenmur

Hopefully the majority of them are fine.
 

bizaliz3

Well other than that one dead fry on Monday morning, there have been no more. So I think that one was just a fluke. everyone is doing excellent!
 

DeniseF

Well other than that one dead fry on Monday morning, there have been no more. So I think that one was just a fluke. everyone is doing excellent!
That's a relief.. I'm going through a mass death situation at the moment, so its good to hear that yours has not gone that way! Phew!
 

bizaliz3

That's a relief.. I'm going through a mass death situation at the moment, so its good to hear that yours has not gone that way! Phew!

I haven't been on FL much in the last week, but I have glanced at your thread here and there and saw that things are not going well. It made me very sad for you. :-(

It is also the reason the loss of my one single fry got me scared!! I worried it was just the beginning of a nightmare!! The combo of you, coralbandit (who treats his fry with meds...right?) and the folks on facebook talking about 4 week syndrome and stuff (which is basically just the fry getting sick from parasites around that age) They also talk about medicating their fry! Every couple weeks even! I have never had to medicate fry, and I would rather not have to do that regularly!! But...seeing what you were going through, and the loss of the one fry in my tank....I started wondering if I was going to have to medicate them.

I am choosing to stick with NOT medicating my fry preventatively. I hope I don't regret that.
 

coralbandit

I don't medicate any of my fry . I have had pairs spawn in tanks that were medicated ,thus fry exposed to meds ?
If my fish look bad they go .I have plenty of meds and know a bit on disease but see no gain in selling fry that were sick once besides money ..
Usually once a tank has issues for me the fish go in the freezer . All of them . Then I sterilize tank and move on down the road .
I think using potassium permanganate is different from using meds and done properly can be very beneficial to tanks that have no issues at all .
I think at some point many forget they weren't an expert when they started and have a low threshold to new things or risky experiments.
If more had been exposed to it earlier and had time to experiment with it most would use it like dechlorinator ...
 

bizaliz3

I don't medicate any of my fry . I have had pairs spawn in tanks that were medicated ,thus fry exposed to meds ?
If my fish look bad they go .I have plenty of meds and know a bit on disease but see no gain in selling fry that were sick once besides money ..
Usually once a tank has issues for me the fish go in the freezer . All of them . Then I sterilize tank and move on down the road .
I think using potassium permanganate is different from using meds and done properly can be very beneficial to tanks that have no issues at all .
I think at some point many forget they weren't an expert when they started and have a low threshold to new things or risky experiments.
If more had been exposed to it earlier and had time to experiment with it most would use it like dechlorinator ...

Ok, I am sorry. I don't know where I got the idea that you treated your fry with prazI as a preventive measure. I think I have been spending too much time on the angelfish groups on facebook! haha I swear, if I see another post about the "4 week syndrome" in fry...I am going to scream!

But ya, many folks on there talk about treating their fry with meds every couple weeks!! just to be safe!

But I have sooooo much respect for you, and none for the strangers on facebook. So to know that you do NOT do those things, I feel much better. I still don't know where I got the idea you did. Maybe it was all the talk about medicating DeniseF 's babies. I don't know!! But obviously we are talking different scenarios.
 

coralbandit

I have treated fish as they need .Usually as adults of over 4-5 months before you see anything you can treat. Fry just die or at least they do here !
Here is why you will hear others treat preventively IMO .They get fish from others in their fish room .They are not just breeders but fish brokers !
If I did what I see others do I would wipe my floors with bleach [I know some who do !] and sterilize tanks regularly .They buy and sell what they make a buck on with little care and often less true knowledge.
But if you don't bring others fish in then the chance of mysteriously developing an issue that needs treatment diminishes quickly. Remember when I said I rarely bring fish in my room ….I have few fears since I know my room is clean. I believe all of Denise issues arrived with new fish ? I am not that seller !
I take adding fish like I did recently very seriously .Both my latest fish are in a separate tank and going no where fast ! I mean they have been here over a month[the other 2] almost but they will never be mixed with any of my other fish . Most my fish get permanent QT !
I will treat fish in heart beat once they are older ,but depending what they are being treated for becoming cured means nothing for their future . I cure to know I have contained any issue in my fish room but often after cure still freeze all fish from that tank . It is just not worth the risk to ship a fish that has already had issue ?
 

jenmur

That’s good there has only been that one fry that died. And the rest are looking good.
 

DarkOne

I've been doing what CB does lately. I have 5 display tanks that usually don't get new fish unless they're from a known healthy tank or from QT after months (2-4 usually). My fry tanks are isolated from everything else.
 

DeniseF

I have treated fish as they need .Usually as adults of over 4-5 months before you see anything you can treat. Fry just die or at least they do here !
Here is why you will hear others treat preventively IMO .They get fish from others in their fish room .They are not just breeders but fish brokers !
If I did what I see others do I would wipe my floors with bleach [I know some who do !] and sterilize tanks regularly .They buy and sell what they make a buck on with little care and often less true knowledge.
But if you don't bring others fish in then the chance of mysteriously developing an issue that needs treatment diminishes quickly. Remember when I said I rarely bring fish in my room ….I have few fears since I know my room is clean. I believe all of Denise issues arrived with new fish ? I am not that seller !
I take adding fish like I did recently very seriously .Both my latest fish are in a separate tank and going no where fast ! I mean they have been here over a month[the other 2] almost but they will never be mixed with any of my other fish . Most my fish get permanent QT !
I will treat fish in heart beat once they are older ,but depending what they are being treated for becoming cured means nothing for their future . I cure to know I have contained any issue in my fish room but often after cure still freeze all fish from that tank . It is just not worth the risk to ship a fish that has already had issue ?
That's exactly right about the introduction of disease, I had zero issues with my fish until I did something stupid and introduced the black female into my communal ram tank to see which male she would pair with. It was a really silly thing to do and born out of a desperation to get fry quick, normally my fish would go into a QT tank, but I agree with you and think the best way is permanent QT. So that is why I have gone around and medicated everything because I felt that even with the best care not to contaminate other tanks, I did and this disease certainly on the fry that are so small, shows zero visible signs before they start floating around out of control - the mortality of whatever it is is 100% and so I am confident if anything is left alive - its not sick! I wholly agree in not medicating normally because that's exactly what I want to get away from, where you buy stock in that have been on meds from birth, are weak and die quickly in someones tank.
 

bizaliz3

And all of this is why I am getting paranoid now. My fry tanks are not separated from anything else. I use the same python siphon for all tanks. (after running scorching hot water through it for 5-10 minutes after each tank...for what its worth) Even my fry tanks are done with the python believe it or not!! I have gotten very good at avoiding babies. I can get them corralled on one side....they actually cooperate very well.

Anyway, I have received a few new fish in the last several months. All of which had approx. 8 weeks in QT. So it wasn't super long. But not super short either. But all are still alive and never showed any signs of illness during QT. ALSO, the QT tanks become fry tanks when they are done being used for QT!!!! And I don't sterilize the tanks first!! (But....if the fish from QT never showed any sign of illness, I just assume the QT tank is just fine to continue to use)

I do not take the extra precautions you guys do. So now I am feeling paranoid. I have not had any mass deaths with my fry ever. **knock on wood** And I have tons of fry in my house right now. Ranging from 2 weeks to 3 months. Also, My bigger grow-out tanks house adult angels when not in use for grow-out. There is just a lot of cross contamination in my house. A LOT.

The baby rams are just over 3 weeks old now. For the record.
 

DeniseF

And all of this is why I am getting paranoid now. My fry tanks are not separated from anything else. I use the same python siphon for all tanks. (after running scorching hot water through it for 5-10 minutes after each tank...for what its worth) Even my fry tanks are done with the python believe it or not!! I have gotten very good at avoiding babies. I can get them corralled on one side....they actually cooperate very well.

Anyway, I have received a few new fish in the last several months. All of which had approx. 8 weeks in QT. So it wasn't super long. But not super short either. But all are still alive and never showed any signs of illness during QT. ALSO, the QT tanks become fry tanks when they are done being used for QT!!!! And I don't sterilize the tanks first!! (But....if the fish from QT never showed any sign of illness, I just assume the QT tank is just fine to continue to use)

I do not take the extra precautions you guys do. So now I am feeling paranoid. I have not had any mass deaths with my fry ever. **knock on wood** And I have tons of fry in my house right now. Ranging from 2 weeks to 3 months. Also, My bigger grow-out tanks house adult angels when not in use for grow-out. There is just a lot of cross contamination in my house. A LOT.

The baby rams are just over 3 weeks old now. For the record.
I think it sounds like you have done absolutely fine on the care, so don't panic. I "knew" and I mean for a fact, that none of the black rams were particularly hardy, my mum had other fish from the same supplier with zero issues - it was just those fish and frankly it was a dumb move.. ok, so it did work out in that I got 2 spawns from the females before they died.. but frankly its been a nightmare trying to sort the car crash of the result out and I lost a good male and a couple of hundred fry! Plus have spent a pretty price on meds!

Now I have a new "non medical" situation in that the combined fry have ones that were very small in it (I mean more like a week old!) and the bigger ones are seeing them as food! Whether the predatory ones are from the blacks I don't know, but that's a new one on me
 

bizaliz3

I think it sounds like you have done absolutely fine on the care, so don't panic. I "knew" and I mean for a fact, that none of the black rams were particularly hardy, my mum had other fish from the same supplier with zero issues - it was just those fish and frankly it was a dumb move.. ok, so it did work out in that I got 2 spawns from the females before they died.. but frankly its been a nightmare trying to sort the car crash of the result out and I lost a good male and a couple of hundred fry! Plus have spent a pretty price on meds!

Now I have a new "non medical" situation in that the combined fry have ones that were very small in it (I mean more like a week old!) and the bigger ones are seeing them as food! Whether the predatory ones are from the blacks I don't know, but that's a new one on me

I'm so sorry you are facing all of that :-( my heart aches for you!!! I hope everything starts looking up real soon!

I remember when I had a breeder box attached to the outside of a 10g. The breeder box had 1 week old angel babies and the tank had 3-4 week old angel babies. And a couple of the 1 week olds fell into the tank by accident and the 3 week olds scarfed them right up! I was like WOAH!

Well, I did find another dead ram baby during the afternoon water change. So that is one on Monday and one on Wednesday. But still 70ish looking healthy as can be...
 

bizaliz3

I gotta snap pics first thing in the morning before they fully wake up in order to get a decent shot. Lol
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angelcraze

Congrats on the fry!!! They are doing well and a nice group

Maybe I'm missing something, I'm not sure, but the subject of treating fry regularly preemptively:
Any new fish I get goes thru preventative treatment in QT and I keep the QT tank very separate. I only treat against internal parasites and watch and wait for anything else. I only use a dewormer and PrazI on new fish once. I QT new fish for at least 2 months, usually 3 or 4.

I don't get why anyone would treat the fry over and over if their fishroom is safe. I know my own tanks are clean, no doubt about it, I have 0 reason to treat the fry. At least I can think of one...

How would the fry ever get a parasite? What am I missing?

As CB said, there is a difference between using PP, mblue, even dewormers than using 'meds'. Don't know what FB ppl are using, but I hope it's not antibiotics!
 

DarkOne

All it can take is a drop of water from another tank.

I personally don't treat new fish unless there's visible signs of illness. Having them go thru months of QT helps my process but if you're impatient and want to do a 1 month or less QT, then preventative treatment would be a good step.
 

angelcraze

A drop of water, but what if you KNOW all fish are parasite-free.

I started prophylactically treating new fish against internal parasites after callamanus worms snuck into my main tank. I treated all the fish in all my tanks at that time. If I QT all new fish for months and treat for internal parasites that you just don't see in a few months, I don't get how I could have parasites in my main system. Pls, if you know how, tell me so that never happens to me again! Speaking about callamanus worms or something similar. I thought I had it all figured out.

So if Biz treats the parents against internal parasites, and all her other fish once (which she did at one time anyway), how would the babies get parasites?
 

bizaliz3

My lovely baby rams...exactly one month old.

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DeniseF

My lovely baby rams...exactly one month old.

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They certainly are looking good! Some look dark too! Fingers crossed you get some nice colours in there!
 

tfreema

So happy you are having success with these guys!!
 

bizaliz3

So happy you are having success with these guys!!

Its about dang time right??!!
It still just blows me away that all I needed to do was give them 24 hours (4 feedings) of dry food and then going forward everything has been exactly the same as raising angels. BBS for every meal. I am trying to get them to eat dry food again. hehe. They won't touch it now. So I have been mixing in some dry food with the BBS. It always works with the angels, it just takes a while.
 

jenmur

They look good!
Now watch the babies pick around the dry food. Heheh.
 

bizaliz3

My pretty little blue guy is waving HELLO!! lol

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He is such a gorgeous blue. I've gotta get him an equally stunning female!

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angelcraze

He IS so gorgeous! Wow!!! That pic is amazing!

Just wait until you get him a mate and they are spawning.... it's an incredible unbelievable blue.

I just noticed something...is the darker strip at the front dorsal and the edge of the ventral fins a dark blue or black?
 

bizaliz3

He IS so gorgeous! Wow!!! That pic is amazing!

Just wait until you get him a mate and they are spawning.... it's an incredible unbelievable blue.

Thank you

There were some at the LFS last night, its really hard to sex these blue ones. (for me anyway) I saw one that I felt confident was female, but it just wasn't pretty like my male. I decided I didn't want to settle. I will wait until I stumble across the perfect female to compliment him. I don't have a good QT OR any room for any more babies! I am DROWNING in babies! haha

So ya, now is just not the time anyway. But one day!!

Honestly, I would rather breed him with a black female. But I don't have one of those anymore :-(
 

tfreema

Thank you

There were some at the LFS last night, its really hard to sex these blue ones. (for me anyway) I saw one that I felt confident was female, but it just wasn't pretty like my male. I decided I didn't want to settle. I will wait until I stumble across the perfect female to compliment him. I don't have a good QT OR any room for any more babies! I am DROWNING in babies! haha

So ya, now is just not the time anyway. But one day!!

Honestly, I would rather breed him with a black female. But I don't have one of those anymore :-(

Yes you do. You just don't know which ones are female yet in your beautiful batch of babies.
 

jenmur

My pretty little blue guy is waving HELLO!! lol

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He is such a gorgeous blue. I've gotta get him an equally stunning female!

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Oh he is gorgeous. I’m waving back to him!
 

bizaliz3

I'm finally starting to see some color on these cuties! They are just over 5 weeks old.


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DeniseF

That's great to see, I had to mix 3 batches, but the GBR on mine were bigger, so I'm thnking the smaller ones are either Black/Black or Black/EBR. I have some that are darker than others and one that I can definitely tell as gold since it really is a yellow colour, but I don't see any actual black fish. Seems mine are a lot like yours, varying from the lighter ones to your bottom pic, but no darker. I'm hoping they will colour up and get darker.. we will see! I'm very interested to see @coralbandits experiment with the gold/black since Marco du Toit who has developed a South African hardy strain says that Black/Gold mix will produce 100% black fry. I'm seriously considering buying some gold next time the blacks become available to do that also.
 

Fanatic

It’s good to hear that they are doing well, great looking babies!
 

jenmur

Yay! Babies looking good
 

coralbandit

I'm very interested to see @coralbandits experiment with the gold/black since Marco du Toit who has developed a South African hardy strain says that Black/Gold mix will produce 100% black fry. I'm seriously considering buying some gold next time the blacks become available to do that also.
I would be interested in finding one of the 'breeders' that would tell the truth ? That is why I stay FAR away from facebook ..Seems like mostly ignorant people [the gulable] and the liars ?
Seems no one with any biology training ever chimes in . My fear is no matter what you do you will not see dark rams making dark rams for some time still ? They are not and will not lock in as easily as the EBR did it seems clear ?
I know for fact that F1 dark do not produce all dark. As for 100% dark from the gold and dark black that is not even half true ? They may be produceing the batches of 5 or six that are good but who knows as I am working them also ?
I know there are a lot of golds in the first batch.
I am getting lots of black rams [I have a lot of blackrams ] but few are dark as I would like ….
 

DeniseF

I would be interested in finding one of the 'breeders' that would tell the truth ? That is why I stay FAR away from facebook ..Seems like mostly ignorant people [the gulable] and the liars ?
Seems no one with any biology training ever chimes in . My fear is no matter what you do you will not see dark rams making dark rams for some time still ? They are not and will not lock in as easily as the EBR did it seems clear ?
I know for fact that F1 dark do not produce all dark. As for 100% dark from the gold and dark black that is not even half true ? They may be produceing the batches of 5 or six that are good but who knows as I am working them also ?
I know there are a lot of golds in the first batch.
I am getting lots of black rams [I have a lot of blackrams ] but few are dark as I would like ….
I think honestly with a created colour line, unless you got the actual fish where someone is breeding true it would be impossible to test because it may have just been a pure fluke that certain fish were picked that did create 100% dark, in any case as you said, there is dark and there is black. I’ve contacted Marco to see if he would sell me 50 fish so we will see. I don’t want 300 as I’d have to get a pet licence to sell them when I only want them for breeding.
 

CaptAnnDuchow

They are looking amazing! I'm so happy for you!!
 

bizaliz3

coralbandit and DeniseF
All this talk about the gold gene and the dark gene with my angels (on my angel thread) has me believing more and more that a gold ram and a black ram might breed all dark rams.....or a very large portion anyway.
Throwing the gold gene in with the dark gene in angels can literally make a jet black angel. So maybe that is the case with the rams too!

Or did you say you already tried a gold and a black?

Maybe it has to be a REALLY dark ram with a gold. With angels...there are two dark genes. So a double dark would be jet black and a single dark gene would be dark but not jet black. And we know there are different shades of dark with these black rams. So...maybe there is such a thing as a "double dark" ram and you need one of those with a gold to make 100% single dark babies??? All their babies would be dark/gold (D/g) and two of them together would make 75% dark and 25% gold with 25% of the darks being double darks??? And then if you breed two of the double darks...THEN you would breed 100% black rams??
 

DeniseF

coralbandit and DeniseF
All this talk about the gold gene and the dark gene with my angels (on my angel thread) has me believing more and more that a gold ram and a black ram might breed all dark rams.....or a very large portion anyway.
Throwing the gold gene in with the dark gene in angels can literally make a jet black angel. So maybe that is the case with the rams too!

Or did you say you already tried a gold and a black?

Maybe it has to be a REALLY dark ram with a gold. With angels...there are two dark genes. So a double dark would be jet black and a single dark gene would be dark but not jet black. And we know there are different shades of dark with these black rams. So...maybe there is such a thing as a "double dark" ram and you need one of those with a gold to make 100% single dark babies??? All their babies would be dark/gold (D/g) and two of them together would make 75% dark and 25% gold with 25% of the darks being double darks??? And then if you breed two of the double darks...THEN you would breed 100% black rams??
That sounds reasonable except from what coralbandit is saying his aren't working like that. I expect it is partly down to luck at picking that fish that essentially is a double dark and since they are very fragile, maybe very few of those make it - meaning chances are slim. I have spoken more with Marco about potentially having some shipped to me.. there is a lot of paperwork to it so not sure how that will go, but he is so far ahead of the game in that his blacks are producing 100% dark now, that if I could make it happen it would get me there soon. Now I do love a challenge and I think if I could actually get any black fish to live long enough that would be great, but I've already spent around £130 on these for 2 spawns and looking at them, zero darks!
 

bizaliz3

That sounds reasonable except from what coralbandit is saying his aren't working like that. I expect it is partly down to luck at picking that fish that essentially is a double dark and since they are very fragile, maybe very few of those make it - meaning chances are slim. I have spoken more with Marco about potentially having some shipped to me.. there is a lot of paperwork to it so not sure how that will go, but he is so far ahead of the game in that his blacks are producing 100% dark now, that if I could make it happen it would get me there soon. Now I do love a challenge and I think if I could actually get any black fish to live long enough that would be great, but I've already spent around £130 on these for 2 spawns and looking at them, zero darks!

So then how did he get his black to produce 100% blacks????
 

DeniseF

So then how did he get his black to produce 100% blacks????
I don't know as haven't gotten into detail on his line, but he said they have to be Homozygous and if they aren't they won't produce all dark. From what I can see he has been breeding these blacks since late 2015, he also stopped breeding other fish apart from the rams so I am guessing all of his tank space has been dedicated to breeding to get to this point.

Edit: Just found this, I think this explains more how the process he went through, this seems to be more like what the rest of us have experienced. I guess the factor is time, time and luck to get the right double darks

 

bizaliz3

I just want to update the progress on my ram babies. They are 6 weeks old and doing very well!

I've got them taking dry foods again finally. So that is nice. I am still giving them primarily BBS, but I am also including dry food too.

At this point they have gotten to be a good size. But something worth mentioning...every single one of the dark ones are half the size of the rest. They look good and healthy, but they are growing so so very much slower. Just another indicator of the "weakness" of the dark rams I guess???
 

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