Biz's Black German Ram Breeding Journal :-) - Page 26

DeniseF

I just want to update the progress on my ram babies. They are 6 weeks old and doing very well!

I've got them taking dry foods again finally. So that is nice. I am still giving them primarily BBS, but I am also including dry food too.

At this point they have gotten to be a good size. But something worth mentioning...every single one of the dark ones are half the size of the rest. They look good and healthy, but they are growing so so very much slower. Just another indicator of the "weakness" of the dark rams I guess???
yes I found that too, but unfortunately due to this I think I lost some to the bigger fry attacking them, I did witness them doing it a few times - eating tails, because the other thing I found they were a lot less active. I don't have any of the really dark ones left now, but I do have some darker ones. I'm not sure coralbandit fry are any weaker than his others now, that seems to be a big hurdle to get over as unless you do that none of those will survive to get any blacks from anyway.
 

coralbandit

Most of my blacks grow at same rate as the others from same spawn of different color .
I hadn't noted they were smaller or behind in growth myself . That may be a first spawn thing ?
I know every black ram I am breeding now is from my own breedings[ some even 2 generation in fishroom] and better acclimated to my set up and me ?
I honestly find in most cases getting a fish breed and being successful with they fry is not easy until you are working with your own fry .
 

AquaticJ

I mated my Black with my regular Blue Ram and all the fry that are balck are growing at the same rate personally
 

bizaliz3

Most of my blacks grow at same rate as the others from same spawn of different color .
I hadn't noted they were smaller or behind in growth myself .
I mated my Black with my regular Blue Ram and all the fry that are balck are growing at the same rate personally

ok. well never mind then. lol
I have a very small number of dark fry in this spawn and all of them are significantly smaller. But I guess that isn't normal if you guys haven't noticed it.
 

AquaticJ

ok. well never mind then. lol
I have a very small number of dark fry in this spawn and all of them are significantly smaller. But I guess that isn't normal if you guys haven't noticed it.
Thinking it might just be a coincidence. Or maybe it’s a coincidence on our side? Idk!
 

coralbandit

OK I am changing my mind !
Cleaning and moving fish I will say a good % of the darks are smaller in the sense they will never be alphas .
Maybe 50% of the dark are notably smaller .
I am moving fish right now and seeing each tank more clearly as I contain them all in tight quarters before the move. On second tank with some nice darks !
I'll say you got good fry if they are dark . I know where 1/2 of your stock came from and he ? was f1 dark .
 

bizaliz3

OK I am changing my mind !
Cleaning and moving fish I will say a good % of the darks are smaller in the sense they will never be alphas .
Maybe 50% of the dark are notably smaller .
I am moving fish right now and seeing each tank more clearly as I contain them all in tight quarters before the move. On second tank with some nice darks !
I'll say you got good fry if they are dark . I know where 1/2 of your stock came from and he ? was f1 dark .

You gave me both the Male and female from this pair!! So it's not just half that you know in this scenario!
I thought I remembered you saying the female you sent has at least one black parent. Isnt that right?
 

coralbandit

You gave me both the Male and female from this pair!! So it's not just half that you know in this scenario!
I thought I remembered you saying the female you sent has at least one black parent. Isnt that right?
Yes I believe so .Best I can remember without going back we questioned whether she was male for a while since she was so mean ?
If that is the case then at least 50% of that spawn should be what I think is a complete dark or double ?
I am not on all that but my gut with the dark blacks is even if it looks dark [or gold ] it may only have 1/2 of what it needs but if by chance you get a dark with complete [or double if that is what it is ?] black then you will at this point get at least 50% dark blacks or golds ?? My golds came out of the darkest of my darks .
So it is tough to pick the right ones moving forward IMO if I get any of this ?
Somewhere in your fry is the right fish !
 

bizaliz3

Ram baby photo op!!
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bizaliz3




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Fanatic

They look amazing!
 

DeniseF

Lovely pics and looks like you have some budding darks there! yah
 

CaptAnnDuchow

Wow they look awesome!!!
 

Cale24

Some choose the light, some the darkness!
 

bizaliz3

Lovely pics and looks like you have some budding darks there! yah

Thank you The darkest one above...there's only a few of those and they are all very very small compared to the rest. As you can see in the photo of the darkest one, the size of the eye is pretty big compared to the size of the body. Giving them a stunted appearance. But they should certainly not be stunted when the others are not. So I am not sure what it is about those darkest ones. But I had the most losses with those dark ones and they are not growing well. :-( I have approx. 40 baby rams in this tank. And its only the 4 or 5 dark ones that are still left that are having the stunting issue. And the darkest ones in general appear to be weaker since so many of them didn't make it.

There are many like the guy in the first picture though!! That one seems to be somewhere in the middle between the dark dark rams and the regular rams. So I expect it to be a darker ram...just not a dark-dark ram.

I think its fun that there are 3 different eye colors between the 3 "shades" of rams. Go back and look if you didn't notice!

They look amazing!
Wow they look awesome!!!

Thanks guys!! I can't wait for them to start coloring up!
 

bizaliz3

I got the rams moved to their bigger tank yesterday. So I got even better pics from the breeder box and got a better head count. The they are just under 10 weeks old. And there's 60 of them.

Heres the fresh pics!

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coralbandit

So glad to see you doing well with these .
 

tfreema

Awesome sauce! 60!! That is amazing!
 

bizaliz3

Just a couple weeks in the bigger tank and I see so much progress!!

Here they are...exactly 12 weeks old!!


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tfreema

Look at the color!
 

DeniseF

Looking good! I was just thinking today that I wondered how your brood is getting along!
 

HookedOnAquariums

I read through this thread like a book. Thanks for getting me to sign up for fish lore, and you may have just convinced me to try and get some rams to breed in an empty 20 gallon I have. (well I really only like blacks, so if I can find any of those). Would love to buy some from you when your ready to let them go. You seem like an outstanding fish keeper and your fish look spectacular. Kudos to coral bandit for helping you get back on your feet! don't forget to keep us updated as your journey progresses!
 

bizaliz3

I read through this thread like a book. Thanks for getting me to sign up for fish lore, and you may have just convinced me to try and get some rams to breed in an empty 20 gallon I have. (well I really only like blacks, so if I can find any of those). Would love to buy some from you when your ready to let them go. You seem like an outstanding fish keeper and your fish look spectacular. Kudos to coral bandit for helping you get back on your feet! don't forget to keep us updated as your journey progresses!

Awesome!! Thanks for reading through it all and Welcome to fishlore!!! And thank you so much for the kind words!!

You should get your rams from coralbandit I don't ship anyway and his fish are stellar!
 

bizaliz3

Look at the color!
I know right!! They finally look like little rams! Its about time. I was getting really sick of them looking like solid gray little things.
Looking good! I was just thinking today that I wondered how your brood is getting along!
Thanks!! I decided to try to get some pics late last night because they have progressed so much in the last couple weeks. I took 164 pictures total and the ones I posted are the only ones worth posting haha! How are yours doing? I haven't been on here much lately. Have you been able to sell any yet?


coralbandit Do my babies look as far along as they should look at 12 weeks old? At what age are you able to start selling yours? I feel like mine are still a ways away....
Anyone else who has raised and sold rams...I ask you that question as well!!!

Thanks!
 

angelcraze

It took me 6 months before my EB rams were showing nice color to rehome. Just want to say, the two weeks between the last update really made a difference. I bet they start to really take off now.
 

coralbandit

4 months is the youngest I sell rams usually unless special request .
I have held some till 8 months before . Just so they were striking in appearance .
Yours look good and the blacks do grow slower so that is just what it is .
 

bizaliz3

Look how much more color in a week! They are really taking off!!


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bizaliz3

I got more great pics I have to share!


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AquaticJ

Beautiful!!!

The mistake I made the first couple of times I raised them was only feeding baby brine shrimp for too long. As soon as they accept dry food, doesn’t matter what, flakes, powdered fry food etc, get them on it. Otherwise they lack the macro and micronutrients they really need to grow. Live food is still part of their diet though, just make sure you get that dry food in there too. All that said, I think yours are growing at an average pace. They grow slow no matter what, just don’t want to make them grow extra slow. I actually like Tetra Flakes because they’re easy to crush and have a ton of protein.
 

bizaliz3

Beautiful!!!

The mistake I made the first couple of times I raised them was only feeding baby brine shrimp for too long. As soon as they accept dry food, doesn’t matter what, flakes, powdered fry food etc, get them on it. Otherwise they lack the macro and micronutrients they really need to grow. Live food is still part of their diet though, just make sure you get that dry food in there too. All that said, I think yours are growing at an average pace. They grow slow no matter what, just don’t want to make them grow extra slow. I actually like Tetra Flakes because they’re easy to crush and have a ton of protein.

Really? Just average growth.
Sheesh, these guys have been getting daily water changes for 13 weeks straight. Along with 4-5 feedings per day of good fry food that I got from coralbandit

Well at least you don’t think it is below average growth rate.

I got these guys off of BBS when they were approx 5 weeks old. (I started mixing it with their BBS around 4 weeks old) They still got BBS every other day for a while. But I haven’t been running the hatchery for about a month now. I’ve had a dry spell with my angels.

coralbandit mentioned selling his around 4 months old. Mine will be 4 months in a few weeks. I'd like to think I might be able to sell off some of the biggest ones by that point. I hope!! Because I am starting to see aggression with the largest ones. Heck, I feel like I can even sex some obvious females!! (big fat pink bellies, spangles on top of the black spot) Its seems so early for that though!
 

coralbandit

You should definitely be able to sex some ..
I have found a new fry food that my fry and fish are really liking .It is a great first dry food and yet even my adult swordtails love it [they are pigs anyways I guess ].
It in combo with BBS and the small golden pearls are great ..


Don't be fooled it is like dust .I got the 8 ounce jar and it is like a 1/2 gallon !
 

jenmur

They are beautiful!
 

bizaliz3

What do you guys think....I'm thinking Male and female....
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coralbandit
AquaticJ
DeniseF
Anyone else who has input.

I can't believe I could acurately sex them at this tiny size.....but.....they look so obviously Male and female to me.
 

AquaticJ

What do you guys think....I'm thinking Male and female....
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coralbandit
AquaticJ
@deniseL
Anyone else who has input.

I can't believe I could acurately sex them at this tiny size.....but.....they look so obviously Male and female to me.
I’d agree, you’ll probably get some eggs soon too. Its funny seeing them lay eggs while they’re so small.
 

bizaliz3

I’d agree, you’ll probably get some eggs soon too. Its funny seeing them lay eggs while they’re so small.

No way! Really? Gosh, they are barely bigger than a half inch! I just can't picture them spawning! In the photos above, they look so much bigger than they are. But they are pretty well developed at this point. So I guess I can see it....lol

Well, maybe it is time to take a pair like the ones above and put them into their own tank and see what happens!! haha I have a 10 gallon or a 15 gallon I could use.

Should I maybe move a handful of them? Or just a pair?
 

coralbandit

Could be male female .Second is female .
Behavior is next clue .How they charge at others ..They full on chase fish of same sex and maybe the other but pull up shy of their partner or potential partner.
Mine start breeding at 4 months .It doesn't often work out but they have to start some time so helping them from the beginning can't hurt .
I would separate ones you like or have grown the most and then see if they form pairs from there.
 

bizaliz3

Well folks....we have a breeding tube!!!
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Excuse the lack of color. She is stressed in a breeder box at the moment.
 

bizaliz3

I can't believe I have breeding tubes on 13 week old babies! Blows me away!
I moved 8 of the biggest babies into their own 20 gallon. (I'd say they are just under an inch? I am bad at eye-balling size). Leaving the rest in the 3-foot 30 gallon. I made sure that I picked a mix of obvious males and females so things could be spread out.

Someone had mentioned to me that I should be careful because all the biggest ones are probably the males. But...haha, that isn't the case here. A lot of the biggest ones are females. Very obvious females.

I put a few saucers into the 20 gallon with the 8 juvie rams. A big java fern bush, a couple big anubias. There was lots of chasing initially. So I wanted lots of cover and hiding spots for them. And based on the size of the breeding tube on a couple of the ladies...I think I might even have eggs from them soon! haha But would the male(s) be mature enough to actually fertilize them? not that I want that or anything! Because I don't right now! haha

HOW CRAZY THIS IS!!!!

There was one moment when I first moved them in that I wish so badly I had on video. But my phone was in the other room. There was an obvious male and female hovering over one of the saucers...both doing the little shimmy dance to "show of" for each other. It was SO DANG CUTE! But it didn't last long.

I just fine this whole thing so strange. These guys are just barely over 3 months old and they are only half of their adult size. Seeing them flirt and show breeding tubes and stuff is just so odd to me!!!
 

JLeeM

I can't believe I have breeding tubes on 13 week old babies! Blows me away!
I moved 8 of the biggest babies into their own 20 gallon. (I'd say they are just under an inch? I am bad at eye-balling size). Leaving the rest in the 3-foot 30 gallon. I made sure that I picked a mix of obvious males and females so things could be spread out.

Someone had mentioned to me that I should be careful because all the biggest ones are probably the males. But...haha, that isn't the case here. A lot of the biggest ones are females. Very obvious females.

I put a few saucers into the 20 gallon with the 8 juvie rams. A big java fern bush, a couple big anubias. There was lots of chasing initially. So I wanted lots of cover and hiding spots for them. And based on the size of the breeding tube on a couple of the ladies...I think I might even have eggs from them soon! haha But would the male(s) be mature enough to actually fertilize them? not that I want that or anything! Because I don't right now! haha

HOW CRAZY THIS IS!!!!

There was one moment when I first moved them in that I wish so badly I had on video. But my phone was in the other room. There was an obvious male and female hovering over one of the saucers...both doing the little shimmy dance to "show of" for each other. It was SO DANG CUTE! But it didn't last long.

I just fine this whole thing so strange. These guys are just barely over 3 months old and they are only half of their adult size. Seeing them flirt and show breeding tubes and stuff is just so odd to me!!!
Sometimes it's the oddities that keep us in the hobby! I'm so glad you got a group of these to take off, because you really wanted it.
 

RedLoredAmazon

I have been following this thread since the beginning. It's amazing how far things have come since the start of this thread.
 

bizaliz3

Sometimes it's the oddities that keep us in the hobby! I'm so glad you got a group of these to take off, because you really wanted it.

Thank you! I really did!!

And now that I have raised rams successfully, I am ok taking a break from breeding rams in order to continue to focus heavily on my angelfish breeding projects!!

With that being said, my plan is to use the 20 gallon to let young ram pairs form, and then sell them as breeding pairs! So as soon as I see anyone pair up and spawn in this 20g, I will list them for sale. And I will just continue to use this 20 gallon to "Create" pairs to sell as the babies grow.

There are a couple babies that stick out from the others. Those babies are ones I plan to keep. If they are unique enough to "stick out" in a crowd of 60....they are unique enough to keep!! For sure!!

I have been following this thread since the beginning. It's amazing how far things have come since the start of this thread.

It really is amazing!! I had planned to give up multiple times. I was a total defeatist about it for so very long. So its very rewarding to have finally succeeded and even raised them to what appears to be sexual maturity for many!

Its also so fun to have people like you who have followed along since day one! So thank you so much for that!!!
 

bizaliz3

I have one very golden colored baby in this batch. It's the only one like it....so it's an obvious keeper!!!

All the following pics are the same fish. My golden baby.

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AquaticJ

I haven’t been very active recently, but I thought I’d update you all on this thread
Here’s the darkest out of the black Ram spawn

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And here’s the direct offspring from electric blue pair coralbandit sent me. They’re laying eggs now, super healthy all around.

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bizaliz3

Heres the only black ram baby I ended up with out of my 60+ babies. There are just couple others. But they are extreme runts. :-( the rest died early on. And it was ONLY dark babies that died. I find that odd.

Anyway. My keeper dark baby!!! (Same fish in each pic)
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tfreema

Look at that fat belly!
 

bizaliz3

Well its official!! I've got a spawn from some teenage parents in the grow out tank!! Sheesh!!! Just 4 months old!


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Edit...well you can see the pics in the app...but not the mobile site.
 

loner556

Biz, I've gone through this entire thread and want to say I'm proud of you for not giving up. I truly encourage you to keep up the hard work as it's clearly starting to pay off. We need as many captive bred fish as we can get.
 

jenmur

Oh wow! How are they doing as parents?
 

Jcurtis15

So what would come out of a black ram breeding with a german blue ram? I have a pair that spawned last night.
 

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