Are these Orinoco dwarf pike cichlids??

[TClare]

They just arrived at my local shop, from Colombia, the fisherman says they are a dwarf species. The female has a red and black dorsal fin ocellus, I couldn't show this on a photo but saw it briefly.

 

[MacZ]

They could be C. sp. regani "Orinoco" but I'm not sure. I was first thinking of C. compressiceps when I read the headline.

In any case, hard to combine with other species.

 

[TClare]

They could be C. sp. regani "Orinoco" but I'm not sure. I was first thinking of C. compressiceps when I read the headline.

In any case, hard to combine with other species.

I have looked at pictures of both and I think they look more like the Orinoco ones. Also they came from the same place as altums apparently.

Why do you think they are hard to combine with other species? I have to read a bit more about them...

 

[MacZ]

Why do you think they are hard to combine with other species? I have to read a bit more about them...

When I got my Hemigrammus filamentosus in September I was offered Crenicichla compressiceps and I was a bit unsettled to hear the store had to move all Corydoras from that tank because the Crenicichla bit off their dorsals and all tetras because the Crenicichla would (try to) eat them too.

The regani are said to be not much better.

 

[Feohw]

If it comes from Colombia and they have red dorsal ocelli, then yes it should be C. sp. Orinoco II.

 

[OfishialBuiseness]

I was first thinking of C. compressiceps when I read the headline.

In any case, hard to combine with other species.

Compressiceps are merciless and will kill everything in their path

 

[Feohw]

Yeah, comps in particular are known to be nasty. My notos were quite well behaved. Certainly not peaceful as they would chase every now and then, but they never harmed other fish. Mostly they focused their attention on each other.

 

[MacZ]

Compressiceps are merciless and will kill everything in their path

The cichlids with them were definitely fine. I doubt they reach the agression levels I know from Mbuna.

 

[OfishialBuiseness]

The cichlids with them were definitely fine. I doubt they reach the agression levels I know from Mbuna.

I've seen a compressicep kill an oscar before

 

[TClare]

Well I will have to see what happens in the shop, they are currently with some Laetacaras and tetras, including some much smaller tetras than those in the photos, quite a small tank. Unfortunately I don't have a spare tank to dedicate just to them, but was wondering if they might be Ok in the big planted tank...but not if they are going to kill everything else...

it should be C. sp. Orinoco II.

So are they closest to C. regani?

 

[Feohw]

So are they closest to C. regani?

No, to C. notophthalmus. In the hobby they're usually just called Crenicichla sp. Orinoco, but in papers they are referred to as Crenicichla cf. notophthalmus Orinoco II. There are other species labelled under the hobby name, but the one from Colombia (Inirida) is the one I named.

 

[MacZ]

I've seen a compressicep kill an oscar before

I doubt it. Are you sure you have the right ID? Crenicichla compressiceps only grow to 8cm and at best can kill fish their own size.

 

[TClare]

Yeah, comps in particular are known to be nasty. My notos were quite well behaved. Certainly not peaceful as they would chase every now and then, but they never harmed other fish. Mostly they focused their attention on each other.

What fish did you have them with? Do you think they would be OK in a heavily planted tank 160 x 60 x 60 cm along with Laetacaras, angelfish, tetras and pencilfish? Do they dig up plants?

 

[Feohw]

What fish did you have them with? Do you think they would be OK in a heavily planted tank 160 x 60 x 60 cm along with Laetacaras, angelfish, tetras and pencilfish? Do they dig up plants?

I had them in a 200x40x55 tank (cm). The other fish were Bolivian rams, diamond and lampeye congo tetras, whiptail cats and some others. They didn't bother the other fish very often. Occasionally the male would shoo tetras away from him and would at times chase the rams out of the area he was in. No harm was done but I did always feel I needed to keep a close eye on the male around the rams.

Most of their aggression was shown towards each other though. I had a male and a female. He was much larger and would usually chase her when he saw her, which wasn't a problem as the tank was set up with territories in mind. Occasionally they would chill together.

Angelfish fins would be ripe targets if they were to go for another fish though. I know coralbandit briefly had regani and they shredded his dantums fins. Meanwhile, Vin Kutty kept groups of regani and notos with discus successfully. They're not a fish I'd like to risk them with personally.

Mine didn't disturb of any plants at all. The plants were one of the things that helped it work out as well as it did.

 

[TClare]

Thanks, yes I wondered about the angelfish fins. My other option would be with the bigger cichlids ( 6 x Mesonauta, 2 Uarus, a severum and blue acara) in a tank 200 x 65 x 65 cm, but I would be concerned about the blue acara I think, it has a big mouth and is generally a bit more aggressive than the others. Also this tank only has a few Vallisneria and water lettuce, though it has leaf litter, branches and roots etc.

I also have a tank 120 x 40 x 50 cm that until recently just had Copellas and an Apistogramma and a few Otocinclus and may have been suitable. But I just put some cardinal tetras in there, they are still very small, and I guess would be eaten.

 

[TClare]

Trying to find out more information and looked up C. notopthalmus as well as Orinoco dwarf pike cichlid, and didn't find much regarding care in the aquarium, so far I have only found the following:

An article in PFK by Heiko Bleher. He says (of C.notopthalmus) "As tank mates I suggest only small characoids such as Nannostomus marginatus, N. eques, Carnegiella strigata and Moenkhausia oligolepis, and/or dwarf cichlids, Corydoras, Otocinclus and Ancistrus species".
It is unclear whether this is based on experience or if he is just listing biotope appropriate species.

Vin Kutty (who seems to be the pike cichlid expert, but whose web site does not work) says in a forum post that he was keeping a pair of C. notopthalmus in a 55 gallon tank along with wild Pterophyllum scalare 'Rio Abacaxis' and Laetacara sp. Orange fin. The pair would stare and flare at each other from opposite ends of the tank. He did not mention them hurting the angelfish.

Aqua imports says of Orinoco dwarf pike:

"Although they breed in pairs this species is optimally kept in groups of multiple males with a single or very few females, as mature females tend to be extremely aggressive towards each other and males when not kept in groups. This species will rarely bother other, larger tankmates".

A Canadian site says:

"The Orinoco Dwarf is a relatively peaceful Crenicichla found in the warm, acidic waters of the Orinoco and its tributaries in Colombia and Venezuela. A hardy and active species, they are usually found in groups in the wild and will form a distinct social hierarchy in the aquarium if given enough space. Be sure to provide plenty of cover for each fish to create and defend its own territory."

However, they are calling it C. sp. strigata, so may be a different one.

So not much to go on really - I am quite tempted to try some and I think the planted tank would probably be most appropriate as it has loads of cover and is quite large - but how many to get - a group, a pair, trio or just one??

 

[chromedome52]

I find that many of the published sizes on Dwarf Pikes are woefully short of reality. I have seen C. compressiceps around 4-5 inches (10-12cm), they were extremely aggressive to one another. I bred a pair of C. regani many years ago, the male was between 5 and 6 inches(12-15cm), female just short of 4 inches. I think most of the discrepancies are due to reported sizes from wild fish. They can get much larger in aquaria but are still far short of the lengths of "normal" pikes.

Because I was breeding them, one pair was isolated in a long 20. Female had a coconut shell with a very small entrance. Male fertilzed from outside the cave. A second pair was being kept in a 55-gallon tank with a few other fish that I don't recall. However, they were quite shy, spending much of their time skulking around driftwood and rocks. I don't recall seeing any interaction with other species.

I would not put them with Pencilfish, as they are skinny and would likely be eaten. Deep bodied Tetras are less likely to be taken, as they present a different head-on profile than minnow-shaped fish. The Dwarf Pikes seem to prefer small invertebrates but are opportunists.

From your photos, I can safely say that those are not strigata, though there are some similarities between young strigata and notophthalmus group dwarf pikes. The sp. "Orinoco" is usually considered closer to regani than notophthalmus, often being labelled "regani-Orinoco". C. notophthalmus is the senior name within the group. It is easily recognized when males raise their dorsal, as they have filamentous rays at the start of the dorsal.

 

[TClare]

I find that many of the published sizes on Dwarf Pikes are woefully short of reality. I have seen C. compressiceps around 4-5 inches (10-12cm), they were extremely aggressive to one another. I bred a pair of C. regani many years ago, the male was between 5 and 6 inches(12-15cm), female just short of 4 inches. I think most of the discrepancies are due to reported sizes from wild fish. They can get much larger in aquaria but are still far short of the lengths of "normal" pikes.

Because I was breeding them, one pair was isolated in a long 20. Female had a coconut shell with a very small entrance. Male fertilzed from outside the cave. A second pair was being kept in a 55-gallon tank with a few other fish that I don't recall. However, they were quite shy, spending much of their time skulking around driftwood and rocks. I don't recall seeing any interaction with other species.

I would not put them with Pencilfish, as they are skinny and would likely be eaten. Deep bodied Tetras are less likely to be taken, as they present a different head-on profile than minnow-shaped fish. The Dwarf Pikes seem to prefer small invertebrates but are opportunists.

From your photos, I can safely say that those are not strigata, though there are some similarities between young strigata and notophthalmus group dwarf pikes. The sp. "Orinoco" is usually considered closer to regani than notophthalmus, often being labelled "regani-Orinoco". C. notophthalmus is the senior name within the group. It is easily recognized when males raise their dorsal, as they have filamentous rays at the start of the dorsal.

Thanks for this information, well that is a shame, I would not want to risk the pencilfish being eaten so that rules out that tank. And yes, I can imagine that happening if they do get to 5-6". The ones I saw were still small. I was actually quite surprised to see Heiko Bleher's list of suggested tank mates that includes Nannostomus marginatus and N. eques.

So what about the big tank with the bigger cichlids, or would the pikes themselves then risk being eaten?

 

[MacZ]

An article in PFK by Heiko Bleher. He says (of C.notopthalmus) "As tank mates I suggest only small characoids such as Nannostomus marginatus, N. eques, Carnegiella strigata and Moenkhausia oligolepis, and/or dwarf cichlids, Corydoras, Otocinclus and Ancistrus species".
It is unclear whether this is based on experience or if he is just listing biotope appropriate species.

Heiko usually lists biotope appropriate species, in this case I'd rather presume it was about what would work in his opinion. He is more of an expedition guy who imports the fish but doesn't keep many himself (besides wild discus and blackwater species). He was on expeditions basically non-stop for over 50 years.

 

[TClare]

Heiko usually lists biotope appropriate species, in this case I'd rather presume it was about what would work in his opinion. He is more of an expedition guy who imports the fish but doesn't keep many himself (besides wild discus and blackwater species). He was on expeditions basically non-stop for over 50 years.

Yes, I have seen a lot of his articles, and I did imagine that it probably was more of a biotope list.

 

[Feohw]

The sp. "Orinoco" is usually considered closer to regani than notophthalmus, often being labelled "regani-Orinoco". C. notophthalmus is the senior name within the group. It is easily recognized when males raise their dorsal, as they have filamentous rays at the start of the dorsal.

This is what people thought initially, but more recently they analyzed the mtDNA of a bunch of Crenicichla and found that the described species that the Orinoco pikes are most closely related to was notophthalmus. It's also made up of at least 3 species. I'll have to dig up that paper when I get home.

 

[chromedome52]

Had not heard about the mtDNA data, very interesting. I'd love to see that paper, been out of the loop for a while.

 

[TClare]

I had a brief look for the paper in google scholar, but didn't find it.
Unless it is this article, but will have to read through it carefully to find the relevant part:
No, it still seems to be referred to as sp regani orinoco in that paper.

 

[Feohw]

Knew I forgot to do something. That is indeed the paper that discusses it. I'll show the quote and then explain the figure:

"The type of C. notophthalmus is from the Rio Negro by Manaus and is in our analyses clearly delimited as a distinct species. Undescribed populations from the Orinoco basin, referred to as either C. cf. notophthalmus or C. sp. Orinoco in the cichlid hobby literature are in our analyses composed of highly divergent clades, distinct from the nominal C. notophthalmus and delimited as at least three distinct allopatric species C. cf. notophthalmus Orinoco I (Ventuari), C. cf. notophthalmus Orinoco II (Inirida/Colombia), and C. cf. notophthalmus Caroní. The divergence between the nominotypical C. notophthalmus and C. cf. notophthalmus in the Orinoco basin is fully 10.0 Ma and within the here analyzed C. cf. notophthalmus in the Orinoco basin ranges between 3.4 to 5.9 My based on our calibration (Fig. 3) demonstrating long isolation between the allopatric species sensu stricto."

When you look at the figure you can see the chronogram laying out where each species fits in relation to each other. The locality of regani that the type specimen came from, the Rio Trombetas, as well as a very common locality in the hobby, Rio Topajos, are both more closely related to comps and wallacii than to notos and sp. Orinoco. The closest relation that sp. Orinoco has to a described species is to notophthalmus, which dates back around 10 million years.

I can see the chronogram potentially confusing people. The names in black in the middle are former names that were used for the corresponding purple/black names on the right. So the name on the right is the one that they actually fall under.

So:

C. cf. notophthalmus Caroní is the name for the cichlids often designated cf. regani group Mayupa, cf. notophthalmus Caroni and another cf. regani group Mayupa.

C. cf. notophthalmus Ventuari is the name for those often labelled under the names cf. notophthalmus Laguna Lamani and Manapiere

C. cf. notophthalmus Inirida/Colombia is the name for cf. regani group Orinoco and cf. regani group Kolumbien

No, it still seems to be referred to as sp regani orinoco in that paper.

I'm not sure where you saw it labelled as this. Was it the chronogram as I suspected?

 

[TClare]

Knew I forgot to do something. That is indeed the paper that discusses, it. I'll show the quote and then explain the figure:

"The type of C. notophthalmus is from the Rio Negro by Manaus and is in our analyses clearly delimited as a distinct species. Undescribed populations from the Orinoco basin, referred to as either C. cf. notophthalmus or C. sp. Orinoco in the cichlid hobby literature are in our analyses composed of highly divergent clades, distinct from the nominal C. notophthalmus and delimited as at least three distinct allopatric species C. cf. notophthalmus Orinoco I (Ventuari), C. cf. notophthalmus Orinoco II (Inirida/Colombia), and C. cf. notophthalmus Caroní. The divergence between the nominotypical C. notophthalmus and C. cf. notophthalmus in the Orinoco basin is fully 10.0 Ma and within the here analyzed C. cf. notophthalmus in the Orinoco basin ranges between 3.4 to 5.9 My based on our calibration (Fig. 3) demonstrating long isolation between the allopatric species sensu stricto."

When you look at the figure you can see the chronogram laying out where each species fits in relation to each other. The locality of regani that the type specimen came from, the Rio Trombetas, as well as a very common locality in the hobby, Rio Topajos, are both more closely related to comps and wallacii than to notos and sp. Orinoco. The closest relation that sp. Orinoco has to a described species is to notophthalmus, which dates back around 10 million years.

I can see the cladogram potentially confusing people. The names in black in the middle are locality names that were used for the corresponding purple/black names on the right. These are using old names that the localities went by, the name on the right is the one that they actually fall under.

So:

C. cf. notophthalmus Caroní is the name for the cichlids that come from the localities designated cf. regani group Mayupa, cf. notophthalmus Caroni and another cf. regani group Mayupa.

C. cf. notophthalmus Ventuari is the name for those in the localities often labelled under the names cf. notophthalmus Laguna Lamani and Manapiere

C. cf. notophthalmus Inirida/Colombia is the name for cf. regani group Orinoco and cf. regani group Kolumbien

I'm not sure where you saw it labelled as this. Was it the chronogram as I suspected?

No, I admit I didn't read it all properly, but downloaded one of the appendices or links that listed all species and it had C. cf regani -orinoco listed, but not cf notophthalmus orinoco. But I have since found the part you quoted! Just checked again the same download and don't know how I missed it sorry! It all does make sense now and I am sure the ones at the shop did come from just that region of Colombia.

 

[TClare]

Today I went back to the shop for the first time since I posted this, and they still have the dwarf pikes! I couldn't resist getting a pair to try (been thinking about them ever since I first saw them). I put them in the big tank with larger cichlids as I did not want to risk the pencilfish or otos in the other large tank and the smaller tanks have even smaller fish. I decided to risk this since a baby Cichlasoma that I put in the big tank as food is still alive and growing as are a couple of diamond tetras that have bred in the tank (they could well end up as pike food I know, or maybe I will catch them and put them in another tank to grow...). Anyway, so far so good. The pikes are very confident and outgoing (I thought they might disappear in that tank as it is so big and there are plenty of hiding places) and the other cichlids are not taking any notice of them. So maybe I should get more. I will get another pair at least if there is another female, but unfortunately most of them seemed to be males. I suppose it would not be a good idea to have several males and only one female.

 

[TClare]

An update on this story. The pikes were doing fine in the big tank, ignoring other fish and seemingly ignored by the other cichlids. The female particularly always out and recognising me as a source of food. They don't seem to go for dried food but are eating brine shrimps, daphnia and a frozen food I make myself, of which they can swallow quite large pieces. They have not gone for the two small diamond tetras, (neither have the other cichlids, so far). Anyway, the day before yesterday I did a water change in the morning and in the afternoon and the next morning the male was nowhere to be seen. I do not know what has happened to him but as he was alive and well in the morning prior to the water change, these are the possibilities I can think of:
1. He is still there hiding somewhere - perhaps chased too much by the female - doesn't seem likely as although not as confident as the female, he did usually appear at feeding time.
2. One of the big cichlids ate him, again seems unlikely as they have been together nearly two weeks, and the pike cichlids can move quite fast, I have never seen any of the other cichlids take any interest in chasing the pikes. Though some of them definitely have big enough mouths.
3. He went up the siphon with the water I was removing - possibly the most likely scenario as they are quite curious, although again does not seem too probable (I am now attaching a filter intake end to the end of the hose just in case).
Anyway he definitely seems to have gone.

So yesterday I decided to go back for more, as I am finding them very interesting, and they are unlikely to appear for sale again. They just had four left, 2 males and 2 females as it turned out. I bought all of them. 3 of them were much smaller and thinner than my female, one male was only a little smaller. So I put the bigger male in the big tank (where he was promptly chased all over by the resident female), and to hedge my bets I put the three small ones in the 120cm tank. The cardinals tetras have grown a lot since I first posted about this, and are certainly too big to be eaten by those small pikes at this stage. There are also 3 Apistogrammas in there and they chased the pikes when they got excited when I fed them on Daphnia, but seemed to settle down later, I will have to see how they behave today. There seems to be a lot of discrepancy about the eventual size of the pike cichlids, but I have a few possible backup plans. If they grow quickly and the cardinals seem to be in danger I can either move the cardinals to my big planted tank, or move the pikes to the big cichlid tank, will just play it by ear and see what happens. I Just didn't want to miss this opportunity. Also the ones in the fish shop all look thinner than when they came, so I am not sure how they are being fed or how long they would live there.

Another thing I would like to be certain about is the correct id. Although I am sure I saw red round the dorsal ocellus when I first saw these fish, the female in the big tank now appears to have a lighter colored ring around the black, not red. I will try to get some photos but its difficult as most of the time they don't have their fins extended, and when they do spread their fins its very quick....
So all present and correct today (except for the original male) and not too much chasing going on. I tried to get some photos of the ones in the smaller tank but could not yet get any with the fins up. These are all I managed so far, sorry about the reflections, I will try to get some better ones later:

 

[Feohw]

Another thing I would like to be certain about is the correct id. Although I am sure I saw red round the dorsal ocellus when I first saw these fish, the female in the big tank now appears to have a lighter colored ring around the black, not red. I will try to get some photos but its difficult as most of the time they don't have their fins extended, and when they do spread their fins its very quick....

C. sp. Orinoco usually has white around it's ocellus similar to regani, it just has an additional red layer that develops over the white. When they're younger it can be harder to see. It's tricky to tell as their dorsals aren't flared, but one of the pics in the first post looks like it has red around the ocellus. Red might be slightly visible on the young one above too.

 

[TClare]

C. sp. Orinoco usually has white around it's ocellus similar to regani, it just has an additional red layer that develops over the white. When they're younger it can be harder to see. It's tricky to tell as their dorsals aren't flared, but one of the pics in the first post looks like it has red around the ocellus. Red might be slightly visible on the young one above too.

Yes, actually later today I saw clearly the smallest one with her fins flared and she definitely had the red, like two semicircles around the ocellus, didn’t manage to get a picture. But the biggest one (the first female I got) does not seem to have this red around the ocellus. I will try to get a better look tomorrow.

 

[TClare]

Here is a photo I took yesterday pm. The fish is a bit obscured and the fin not fully extended but the red on each side of the ocellus can easily be seen if you blow up the picture. This is the smallest one. Today I will try to photograph the bigger female, harder as its a small fish in a big tank...

(looks like the plants could do with some potassium or something!)

 

[TClare]

A couple of updates:

I found the original male dead this morning, perhaps he had been injured and was hiding out somewhere, I don't know, but he didn't go up the siphon! And I had not seen any sign of him since I last posted. The others are all doing fine so far. I managed to get this shot of the first (biggest) female, I apologize for the reflections and all the stuff in the water, I had just fed them on Daphnia, the best way of getting her to flare the fins, and the other cichlids were sifting for food at the bottom and stirring stuff up. So this female does not have any red surrounding the ocellus, though the other two do.


Feohw

 

[TClare]

I managed to get a better photo, this is the biggest female, I am just starting to see some red on the ocellus now. All are doing well so far and no more disappearances. They are the sort of cichlid that always comes to the front to beg for food. I am feeding them with homemade food, daphnia and brine shrimps. The male in the big tank is the only one to take dry food so far, just a couple of days ago he started eating Bug Bites tropical. In the big tank the female is dominant and chases the (smaller) male when she sees him, usually at feeding time. At other times they go their own ways. In the smaller tank it is the male who chases the two smaller females, again pretty much just over food, at other times they are calm. I am liking them a lot so far!

 

[Feohw]

Nice pic. They are indeed a fantastic fish. One of the better fish I've had the pleasure to keep.

 

[TClare]

Nice pic. They are indeed a fantastic fish. One of the better fish I've had the pleasure to keep.

Yes, I am very pleased I got them, I was quite surprised how confident they are even in the tank with much bigger cichlids, and so far no problems with either the Apistogrammas or cardinal tetras in the other tank. Though the smallest pike cichlid is thinner than the cardinals! It will be interesting to see what happens as they mature.

 

[TClare]

Quick update, both good and bad. The good - both larger pike cichlids in the big tank are doing fine (touch wood). They have grown and the male will eat anything, the female still is not keen on dry food. Most of the time they occupy two different sides of the tank. The female is rather aggressive towards the male, but nothing too serious, plenty of space for him to get away and she does not persist in chasing him once he leaves her area.

The bad - the male in the small tank has disappeared, just like the first male did. Very strange and exactly as before - one day he seemed perfectly fine, he was a bit bigger than the two tiny females and was dominant over them, chasing them, mostly over food,he actually looked in better condition than them. He was eating dry food as well as the daphnia, brine shrimps and homemade food. Then one day last week he vanished. I have not been able to find any trace of him. There are plenty of hiding places in the tank, and no fish in there that could kill or eat him, but I don't believe he is hiding - they are not hiding sort of fish, they always come near to the glass when I look at the tank. So that is a blow, means I only have one male now. And now I am slightly paranoid, each time I look I am worried in case another one might suddenly disappear without warning.

As for the two females in the smaller tank they were both very small and skinny when they arrived, but now the smallest one, which I actually wondered if she would survive, has put on some weight and looks better than the slightly longer one which is still skinny, though eating normally.

Not a very good shot, but this is the skinny one

And this is the smallest (but now fatter) one.

 

[TClare]

This female (the biggest) is getting a second ocellus!

 

[Linda1234]

This female (the biggest) is getting a second ocellus!
View attachment 875052

As she gets larger will she stay passive or will she turn into a predator eating everything but the kitchen sink?

 

[TClare]

As she gets larger will she stay passive or will she turn into a predator eating everything but the kitchen sink?

I really don’t know, the biggest male and female are with bigger cichlids and the tetras in that tank are mostly quite big too, I don’t think there is anything they could eat in there, except maybe a couple of small diamond tetras. The ones in the smaller tank are still very small and are with cardinal tetras…will have to decide what to do when they get bigger…

 

[TClare]

An update - In the smaller tank only the smallest, thinnest pike cichlid survived, she is now big and fat (I was away for three weeks and found only 3 cardinal tetras left and a fat pike cichlid when I got back). She is now nearly as big as the female in the big tank, the male is now bigger. All have grown a lot. I am wondering if I can move the female to the big tank or will the resident female be too aggressive to her?? The big tank measures 200 x 65 x 65cm and does have plenty of hiding places but I would hate any to get stressed or even killed.

Just before I went away the fish shop owner wrote to say he had had several more come in, I would have iiked to get more but was too busy at the time and didn't really want to bother my husband with an extra quarantine tank to look after. If he still has them I might get more, but if not I would consider doing something else with the smaller tank which would mean moving the female that is there at the moment and the big tank is the only possibility as the others have smaller fish.

 

[TClare]

My dwarf pike cichlids are no longer classified as Crenicichla! The genus has been revised on the basis of morphological features and molecular data, and split up with new genera proposed. So all dwarf pikes now belong to the genus Wallaciia. Other new genera are Saxatilia, Lugubria and Hemeraia. Teleocichla is maintained. Batrachops and Lacustria are sub genera. All pike cichlids belong to the sub tribe crenicichlina.

https://academic.oup.com/zoolinnean/article-abstract/198/4/982/7204395

As for mine, they are doing fine. I did put the extra female in the big tank, no problems even though the first two seemed to have paired up. They go round together and display a lot especially after a water change, the female looks quite fat but no spawning yet. They chase the other female occasionally but they don’t persist in hunting her down once she has left the area. They are not aggressive to the other fish.

 

[GoldenToaster3300]

I have kept this species before and they literally bite off the heads of dwarf rainbowfish. They don't just eat anything that can fit in their mouth, they will rip it in half if they have to.

Thanks for this information, well that is a shame, I would not want to risk the pencilfish being eaten so that rules out that tank. And yes, I can imagine that happening if they do get to 5-6". The ones I saw were still small. I was actually quite surprised to see Heiko Bleher's list of suggested tank mates that includes Nannostomus marginatus and N. eques.

So what about the big tank with the bigger cichlids, or would the pikes themselves then risk being eaten?

 

[TClare]

I have kept this species before and they literally bite off the heads of dwarf rainbowfish. They don't just eat anything that can fit in their mouth, they will rip it in half if they have to.

Well in the end I put them with my large cichlids. The smallest fish in that tank are diamond and bentosi tetras, they have not tried to catch them.

 

[FishyMcfish]

They just arrived at my local shop, from Colombia, the fisherman says they are a dwarf species. The female has a red and black dorsal fin ocellus, I couldn't show this on a photo but saw it briefly.

Those are cool!

 

[TClare]

I thought it was time for a quick update. The three dwarf pikes are doing fine in the big tank with larger cichlids, they occasionally chase and nip at the Geophagus but otherwise do not cause any trouble, neither do they interact much with each other. What is interesting is that both females have chosen "caves' where they spend most of their time and occasionally defend from other fish that get too close. The most dominant female has a place near a front corner of the tank under a log, she always emerges from there when I look at the tank. The other female has a place near the back of the tank and only really comes out for food. The male in contrast is never hidden, he swims around mostly in the middle regions of the tank. All of them are very greedy and always appear at feeding times. I tried to get some photos today but didn't manage any in focus, but will attach the best I have. They are very attractive fish, but have shown no signs of breeding. I think I would have to keep them in a separate tank, maybe increase the temperature, and reduce the pH. Unfortunately I don't have space to do this at present.

 

[GlennO]

Very cool fish. I've never seen one over here.

 

[TClare]

Very cool fish. I've never seen one over here.

They are not usually available here either, I just got lucky, occasionally we have imports from Colombia with a few more interesting species.

 

[Fishfur]

That’s quite the bold marking on the dorsal - very handsome fish.