Question on Ich

[JoeLU]

Question on Ich X. My 80 gal tank got contaminate from fish recently purchased, several have already died including fish I have had over 5 yrs. I have started Ich X treatment, currently on the 3rd day. I am concerned that it is being filtered out even though I have no carbon currently in the filter.

Fresh water, wet/dry filter and Eheim 2213 canister. The Eheim is from a smaller tank I had years ago. Could the floss in the Eheim be filtering out the Ich X. I do the water change, vacuum the gravel, add the Ich X. After a couple hours the water is no longer green but clear. Is this normal?

Just had another fatality, 5 so far. I have two large clown loach that I am really praying will survive.

 

[A201]

Are you sure you are dealing with Ich?

 

[JoeLU]

Thank you for the response A201 Pretty sure. White spots like salt all over, not eating, scratching, rapid gill movement. I have never had any kind of sickness in my tank in probably over 15 yrs. January 7 bought 4 bala sharks and 2 small clown loach. Next day one of the new baby clown died. Shop gave me a replacement after testing water. Couple days later another died. So the three new clown died. Then, three dot gourami, opaline gourami and a clown, all in the tank for over 5yrs, died.

Just did 3rd water change and treated with the Ich X. I turned off the Eheim canister and just have the W/D going. Within an hour the water got clear, no longer green tint. Is that normal? Temperature 84-86 *F. I did add a little API stress coat.
I did water test earlier today; ammonia 0, nitrate 0, nitrite 0, Ph 7.2

 

[Fishfur]

The only filter media that would remove any component of Ich X is activated carbon and it would only remove the malachite green effectively - it does not adsorb formalin very well.

Lights should be off for treatment as malachite green is light sensitive.

Images of the fish would be good to see - Epistylis is often confused with Ich and though Ich X would kill the protozoans, there is often also infection that needs treatment with the Epistylis. They aren’t true parasites but despite this, they can cause high mortality rates.

 

[A201]

You might be dealing with Oodinium, which would look similar to the Ich parasite. Oodinium is a much more virulent parasite.

I believe Ich-X is effective against Oodinium as well as Ich.

Newly introduced Clown Loaches are well known Ich magnets, second only to Silver Dollars.

Hang in there things will get better.

 

[bgarthe]

Welcome to FL. Sorry you’re having problems.

Pics would help. My concern with this is the speed with which fish seem to be dying off. Ich wouldn’t act that fast (multiple deaths in such a short period) and I’m not sure about oodinium. Is there anything else besides the new fish that went into the 80g?

Lastly…..and I mean well, it might be time to set up a QT. It would greatly lessen the chances of problems with your multi-year inhabitants of your 80g display tank. It’s also a lot easier/cheaper to treat a 5g, 10g, or 20g QT than it is an 80g tank.

 

[JoeLU]

Thanks all for responses. It is really hard to get good pictures since they are trashing around so much. Got one of the small bala shark and did a video. Pic attached. Link to video -

Video will be available 12am 01/25

 

[Archtop]

For ich, bumping up the temp 5° was always more effective than any medications in my experience. With an 80 gallon tank such as yours, the temp increase would be gradual.

Good luck! We have all been there.

 

[JoeLU]

Just checked, the largest clown is dead.Got to tell you guys, i love and care for my fishes just like people that love their dogs or cats. So all of the original old fishes are gome except for 1 clown and 1 large bala. The four new small bala's dont look so great either.
Temp currently at 86.
Talk tomorrow.

 

[bgarthe]

Your pic does show what looks like Ich. In the vid, however, that clown didn’t seem to be covered in Ich. His strange swimming around (imho) points to something else….just wish I knew what. Clowns are very sensitive to water parameters/condition. Were you very careful to dechlorinate/chloramine your WC water? I am questioning to get at the root cause, not appear condescending. I am trying to figure out what might have caused that Clown to behave as he did. I don’t think he was doing that bc of Ich.

Keep in mind that there are heat resistant strains of Ich and with a higher temperature, oxygen levels decrease. Extra aeration is highly suggested. My experience/dealings with Ich used both heat and meds. I used the heat to speed up the life cycle of Ich and/or kill the Ich, but always found that meds given for several days past when you see any white spots serves as a good ‘one-two punch.’ Some will disagree, but that has been the ticket for me. I am happy to report that all my more recent episodes of Ich (two in the last 5/6 years) were contained/treated in the QT.

 

[Noroomforshoe]

Im so sorry about you loses!, Its like a kick in the gut everytime, except the kick might heal faster.

 

[coralbandit]

Sorry about your losses.
I just went through the same thing with new fish in my 180.
I am a Kordon Rid Ich guy but I think the IchX is close to the same active ingredients.
It says you can dose every 8 hours and I would atleast be dosing 2X a day.
The temp is a little high IMO. Higher temps reduce dissolved O2 as does the meds. Not a good combo.
You either use meds or heat, not both.
I agree on reducing the light also as it degrades the M green.

 

[A201]

It is surprising that the medication isn't doing the job.

Maybe the parasites had just done too much damage before the medication was dosed.

I believe you noted that Stress Coat was applied, probably for the healing effects of the aloe vera.

Do you also use a sulphur based water conditioner such as Prime?

Sulphur based water conditioners render certain medications useless. I googled Ich-X and according to Google, sulphur based water conditioners diminish the potency of Ich-X.

I quit using Prime after a gill fluke outbreak that occurred in my 120g about six months ago.

 

[JoeLU]

Thanks everyone for your responses.

**Yes, couldn’t see any spots on the clown either. When took it out after it died last night, did see patches like skin peeled off. Probably from all the scratching on the log ornament. The last clown is in the mountain ornament, did see a wiggle of its tail, but it does not come out even for food. I have a fairly large pleco as well that seems to be completely ok. No spots, swims normally. I will try to get a pic of it.

I do the water change like I have always done. Yes, dechlorinate/chloramine, temp check, etc. I will add air stone in a few minutes.

**I will turn lights off. So, should I dose every eight hours?

**Ich X treatment started three days after I realized what was happening. Due to shipping. Yes I used stress coat for water condition and aloe vera properties. No, I do not use Prime.

The large bala shark only have some spots on the tail, but I don’t believe it is swimming normally as well. Like its in a race, swimming hard. I believe because of the itching. Haven’t seen it scratching on the ornament though.

If the large bala and the pleco dies, I may just get rid of the tank. I am 73 and don’t want to start over from scratch again.

Thanks all.

Welcome to FL. Sorry you’re having problems.

Pics would help. My concern with this is the speed with which fish seem to be dying off. Ich wouldn’t act that fast (multiple deaths in such a short period) and I’m not sure about oodinium. Is there anything else besides the new fish that went into the 80g?

Lastly…..and I mean well, it might be time to set up a QT. It would greatly lessen the chances of problems with your multi-year inhabitants of your 80g display tank. It’s also a lot easier/cheaper to treat a 5g, 10g, or 20g QT than it is an 80g tank.

Hi bgarthe Your welcome to Florida, was it the PH result that gave it away? Thank you.

 

[bgarthe]

Oops……perhaps there’s a misunderstanding. FL was referring to Fish Lore, not Florida. Welcome to FishLore.

 

[coralbandit]

Yea I would go lights out and IchX 2X a day.
You need to keep treating 3-7 days after you see the last spot.
Ich has a funny life cycle where it has to fall off the fish to re populate.
When it is off the fish is the only time the meds will work.
This is a great article on ich, know your enemy.
Ich | The Skeptical Aquarist

 

[JoeLU]

Oops……perhaps there’s a misunderstanding. FL was referring to Fish Lore, not Florida. Welcome to FishLore.

No problem.

 

[JoeLU]

Yea I would go lights out and IchX 2X a day.
You need to keep treating 3-7 days after you see the last spot.
Ich has a funny life cycle where it has to fall off the fish to re populate.
When it is off the fish is the only time the meds will work.
This is a great article on ich, know your enemy.
Ich | The Skeptical Aquarist

So, if I am doing treatment twice a day(every 12 hour) do I also need to do water change at each treatment?

 

[coralbandit]

If you have been doing them all along once a day will be fine.
Honestly if you are up on your water changes and there isn't too much dissolved organics you can go every other day.
Changing water every dose is necessary for the many who change low amounts regularly.
I was always a big water change guy. Still believe 50% is a bare minimum. I used to be like discus keepers and change 90% two times a week on breeding/fry tanks. It was a lot of work.
If your mechanical media is dirty changing that will help quite a bit.
Like the light organic debris degrades meds quicker than when installed in clean water.

 

[JoeLU]

Thanks coralbandit
Just took a look, last clown died. So all I have left is the older big bala and four small ones. The four smail ones I had purchased with to 2 baby clown, that infected the tank.

 

[coralbandit]

I am a clown loach owner also. I have 2 left from my original group of maybe 12 that are aprox 20+ years old.
I got 6 new little clowns and ich arrived the next week.
Tank had been healthy for years before this. After losing at least 2 of the little clowns I got 8 more. Figured I was all set to treat again if I had to. Fortunately, I have not lost my two oldest clowns but I only count 10 of the little guys.
Stick with it man and possibly get more now while you are treating also. I hate losing fish, so I rarely get fish for my 180. I was down to 2 clowns 8 Denison barbs and my super red bushy nose that breed regularly in the tank. The tank looked pretty empty so I felt like it was time to re stock. Ich; Know your enemy... I think I lost 4 of the first group of clowns but also think they had some hidden issue making them weak. I can see the second group of 8 has grown already.
When I re stocked my tank about a month or two ago I figured my tank is good for the next 5-10 year.

 

[A201]

CB, how did your Mascara Barbs make out during this ordeal?

 

[coralbandit]

CB, how did your Mascara Barbs make out during this ordeal?

The mascaras came right after I completed treatment of the tank. I am prepared to treat again if I have to, but the tank seems stable for now. The Mascaras are the fastest growing of the new fish and fit the group of fish I had and want so perfectly. Even my wife sees them growing quickly. All 6 are happy and for the most part stick together like family. They are water pigs when it comes to food. They have gotten fat~! Aprox. 3-4 inches now~!

 

[A201]

Unlike Clown Loaches, the Dawkinsias are very disease resistant.

My juvenile Mascaras are growing fast too. I think I'll add one more to the group after the snow melts. Lol.

 

[JoeLU]

I want to thank you all for your help and advice on this issue. I have another question. Have any of you on this forum or have you ever heard of a tank collapsing, coming apart. This is a concern I have been having for a few months and think of getting rid of mine. I had a 45-gal deep tank when I was living in NJ some 20 odd years ago. It started to bow and got a leak in one of the edges. I could only have only about 20 gal in it. Eventually I got rid of it and did not get a replacement until I move to Florida.

I am concerned that if the center brace breaks, for some reason and the whole thing collapse. It is in our family room with several entertainment devices including a couple expensive speakers. Am I being paranoid?

coralbandit I am taking your advice: stick with and get new stock now while I am treating the tank.

 

[A201]

Just make sure the tank is leveled as much as possible, making sure that all corners of the tank are resting firmly on the stand. This will eliminate any damaging torque potential that might lead to catastrophic failure.

 

[coralbandit]

I have seen others have issues with their center brace and never seen a total failure. Usually they had time to realize and react by lowering water level and repairing or replacing. From what I saw the brace was compromised during manufacturing or by an improperly set up tank. In either case it did not take long for the issue to show. I would not be overly concerned with a 4' tank.
My 180 is at least 20 years old. I considered replacement before restocking but really could not justify the cost or work involved when I see no issues and really the only thing that should wear out is the silicone.
I agree with A201. Properly set up the tank should not have any issues regarding catastrophic failure. Glad to hear you sticking with it.

 

[bgarthe]

While what coralbandit and A201 is correct, a tank shouldn’t collapse if set up properly, I would (and did in the past) take down a tank that had a broken center piece. When my 55g tank had its brace break, it instantly became a hospital tank for my koi and was only ever filled 1/3 to 1/2 way and in the basement. The cost of a new 55g was a lot less than the damage would have been had it given way. Bottom line for me is that part of my enjoyment and relaxation watching fish is that I did everything I could for the fish, tank set up, equipment, and safety. If there is something that bothers me, I only feel better having fixed it. Letting that weird feeling in the gut of worry is going to be addressed by me no matter the cost.

 

[JoeLU]

Thanks guys. Tank setup is all good, no issues that I can see. This setup is 20 years old as well. I will continue with it and as suggested get new fish while treating.

The place I purchased the small clown loach charged $25 for 1. Dont plan on going back there though. Found a couple other places nearby, well check them out.

Wish I had found the forum years ago.

 

[A201]

If you are interested in another variety of Loach, maybe a little more durable and much less expensive. Look at YoYo Loaches.

YoYo's are common, but they are a really cool Loach. I keep six or seven of them.

Another nice looking, tough Loach is the Kubotai Loach, aka Banded Loach. I keep a group of them too. They are a little pricey.

Really, no matter where you buy Clown Loaches, be prepared for an Ich outbreak. For some reason they don't acclimate well. Once established, Clowns live a very long time

Another bullet proof Loach is the Modesta Botia aka Red Tail Loach.
They are built similar to the Clown Loach, like a linebacker, but about half the length. I have a group of them too.

You probably should avoid the syncrossus Tiger Loaches until you gain more experience.

Here are pics of the suggested Loaches.

 

[coralbandit]

I got my clowns from PetSmart for $12. They were $25 at my favorite LFS and the same size. The second group of 8 from PetSmart look very healthy are active and growing. In defense of the fish and the store as none looked unhealthy I am keeping my tank on the cool side IMO at72-74f for my roseline sharks. I know that is not best for the loaches but once they adjust they seem fine.

 

[A201]

Nothing wrong buying from Petsmart & Petco. All my Tiger Barbs, all my Yoyo's and half of my Banded Loaches came from there.

The Loaches, Denison & Mascara Barbs are all riverine species. They can adjust to a wide temperature range.

I keep mine at room temps too. 72 - 76.

 

[bgarthe]

I will, and have, gone to PetSmart, but much prefer to go through my LFS. We used to have 3 LFSs and only have one left with a second LFS hanging on by a thread…likely to soon close down.
PetSmart often has inferior/sick fish, staff that don’t really know their stuff, but does have good prices and ok selection. My pet shops do nice special orders for me and (imho) take better care of fish. So, will I gladly pay more for LFS fish as opposed to box store fish?? You bet I will. Interestingly, in two nights, I will be taking my sweet Collie to her intermediate obedience training class at…where of all places?….PetSmart. Our local PetSmart has a fantastic dog trainer who has trained our last two dogs. Btw….when I say training, it really means ‘training of me’.

 

[JoeLU]

Hi Guys, this is an update and request for advice. A little bit lengthy, I apologies.

I have been keeping fish for some time and have been very successful at it so far. Several times I have taken water sample to my LFS to test and always have been good. They said whatever you are doing, keep it up. A week before I purchased the contaminated fishes they told me the same thing.

When I just started, I use to add chemical to removed chlorine, chloramine, etc. when I do water change. I used to add salt but stopped that a few years ago. Now the only thing I use is API stress coat, nothing else. So, water change I use the Python no spill clean and fill to suck approx. 1/3 water out and vacuum the gravel. Then I reverse the flow to add water back. While filling I monitor temp by feel and adjusting hot/cold flow. I would then add the stress coat. How do you guys take care of your tank(s).

I have added a video of the one pleco I have for approx. 5 or 6 yrs.

For some reason it seems like the ich did not affect it. I don’t see any spots and he swims and eat as normal. One of the four small bala shark died last night and the others don’t look so hot. The spots are clearing up on them but does not look healthy at all. The big one is a champ so for.

I have also added two pictures of small snails. These are mostly in the wet/dry filter. I believe these got into the tank when I experimented with live plants. Purchased at the same LFS. Every once in a while, I clean them out of the filter, taking care not to kill the filter media bacteria. How can I get rid of them or do I need to?

Thanks.

 

[A201]

Botia Loaches will eat snails. All the Loaches I noted above will be able to do the job.

I still do water changes old school. A five gallon bucket. I also use Stress Coat and mix it in a 20g plastic muck bucket with clean water.

Plecos aren't quite bulletproof regarding disease, but pretty close.

Btw, nice looking tank.

 

[JoeLU]

Botia Loaches will eat snails. All the Loaches I noted above will be able to do the job.

I still do water changes old school. A five gallon bucket. I also use Stress Coat and mix it in a 20g plastic muck bucket with clean water.

Plecos aren't quite bulletproof regarding disease, but pretty close.

Btw, nice looking tank.

So that is why I don’t see the snails in the tank itself. Once in a while I will see one, but it gets eaten by the clowns. Guess when I get a loach and acclimated, I will put it in the wet/dry filter for a while to clean it up.

 

[Noroomforshoe]

Please dont put loaches in a wet dry filter, that could easilly kill the loaches. They are delicate live caught fish.

 

[JoeLU]

Please dont put loaches in a wet dry filter, that could easilly kill the loaches. They are delicate live caught fish.

Yeah, I already realized that was a bad idea.

 

[Noroomforshoe]

I could kind of see it, if you turned the filter of and let them in,but nettinging them is never idea. And dont forget they like to explore the tiniest gaps of things and get stuck, I lost one to a tank decoration, i had to saw apart a diffent decoration to save one once "it worked!"

 

[Whitewolf]

I use rid ick plus. And ues the greenish tint dissapates after a few hours. You may be dealimg with a bacterial infection. Mixing a gram+ and gram- amtibiotics in food is the best way to adress it

 

[JoeLU]

Update: The pleco and the large, older bala shark still look fine. White spots on that bala tail are all gone. One of the two small, new bala is active, the other, not so much. They both still have white spots. I am thinking of changing medication, what to you all think? Maybe to the Rid-Ick plus suggested by Whitewolf , who also suggested that this maybe a bacterial infection. Would some kind of Doxycycline be recommended? The bala’s are not eating much these days so probably need to treat the entire tank instead of just mixing in food.

I was also thinking of cutting back on the ick-x from twice a day to once, but seeing the spots still on the two bala, that maybe a bad idea.

Current water temp is 82°F. I did raise it to 86 for a few days. Lights off, except for a few minutes when I feed.

Appreciate all the help.

 

[coralbandit]

No harm in switching up. I am Rid Ich Plus myself. I used buy it by the gallon~!
Kordon Rid Ich Plus
Last time I ordered 3 of the 16oz bottles and was good within 2 of them.
If you can find some frozen food like brine shrimp that the fish are strongly attracted to you should get some to help the fish stay strong.
I fed frozen Blood worms 3-4 X a week when my fish were sick.

 

[JoeLU]

Shouldnt mix treatment right? Parasite and bacteria!

 

[coralbandit]

Some meds can be mixed.
I have always thought antibiotics are pretty hit and miss with fish.
Most say to only install for 5-8 days which completely goes against how they work IMO.
Kanamycin can be mixed with ich meds I believe.
I respect whitewolf but the spots are ich.
Often simple infections are allowed to develop long enough they show secondary infection symptoms.
Solve the first issue and second goes away.

 

[bgarthe]

It depends on the meds. I have often used Kordons Rid Ich Plus for Ich or Seachem’s Paraguard and fish food infused with Metronidazole for internal treatment. I even included salt back when I simultaneously fought Ich and Epistylis successfully.

Do be careful as some cannot be mixed/used at the same time. Many copper treatments have listed chemicals that cannot be used with copper.

 

[JoeLU]

Update: One of the small bala shark survived, with the large bala and the pleco. I had stopped treatment a week ago for one day. Carefully inspected, made sure I had my glasses on and used a flash light. Still saw a few spots on the small bala, so restarted treatment. It has been a week and all looks good. Took some pics and viewed on my pc so I could enlarge and get a better view. Looks good to me. Last treatment was last night.

I was hoping to add some stock while treating but did not get around to it. I will probably be able to next week. I am not going to add carbon right now to filter out the medication. I will restore normal lighting and continue to monitor.