Just got Kuhli Loaches

[BlackMolly99]

I just got kuhli loaches a week ago, and I have a few questions.

I have 3 in a 20 g tank with gravel, 1 cherry shrimp, 1 ghost shrimp, 2 male guppies( no dominance issues) and lots of hiding places.
The questions are:
Do they NEED sand?
If they do need sand, can I make only part of the tank sand, and how?
How much food do they need, and how do I know that the shrimp aren't eating it all?

I might think of more questions later
Thanks!

 

[FinalFins]

Just make sure you regularly clean the gravel so no nasty things build-up and the loaches go scrounging there to get food. And make sure the gravel is not sharp. Sand would be good too. They sift in it naturally.

You probably want to get more. They like numbers.

 

[BlackMolly99]

The gravel isn't sharp.
If I get more will they be more active? Right now I hardly ever see them.

 

[FinalFins]

The gravel isn't sharp.
If I get more will they be more active? Right now I hardly ever see them.

They are normally quite shy the first couple weeks but eventually you will see them more.

 

[Ihaveupsindrome]

give them a pvc tube about 5-6 inches they love those and yes you will need sand. try to get at least 6 of them.

 

[BlackMolly99]

If I just put a shallow dish of sand in there, would that work?
Or would they just mix the sand in with the gravel?

 

[wishuponafish]

Someone did an experiment on another forum where they put kuhlis in a tank divided into sections with sand, small gravel, and rocky gravel and found that they liked the rocky gravel most and the sand the least.

Around here it's "common sense" and constantly spread around that kuhli loaches NEED sand and NEED to be in groups of 6+, but many people have had them live happily or breed in gravel, and in small numbers or large numbers. More is better so I recommend you get more if you can, but unlike schooling tetras they are capable of thriving in small numbers if you can't.

 

[richiep]

I've got 15 in one tank and only see them when I feed or put the lights out, it's a sand bottom and each morning you can see where they have been sifting

 

[FinalFins]

Someone did an experiment on another forum where they put kuhlis in a tank divided into sections with sand, small gravel, and rocky gravel and found that they liked the rocky gravel most and the sand the least.

Around here it's "common sense" and constantly spread around that kuhli loaches NEED sand and NEED to be in groups of 6+, but many people have had them live happily or breed in gravel, and in small numbers or large numbers. More is better so I recommend you get more if you can, but unlike schooling tetras they are capable of thriving in small numbers if you can't.

Theres a couple flaws I see in that kind of experiment.

Gravel traps morsels of food very often. It could easily be that the loaches liked the area because they can find food, and its evident in my group of loaches which 75% of the time search the rocky areas for food particles trapped between the rock.

It also isn't exactly proving they like gravel more since the experiment was only conducted once. There are many factors that influence behaviour.

I bet the only reason the loaches bred is that the eggs fell between the gravel and they hatched there, unlike sand where the eggs would rest on the surface. Could you also link to where someone bred kuhlis? I have personally not come across any reports of breeding of kuhli loaches. Just curious not critisizing.

I personally think that shoaling fish needs numbers in their groups.. Pangio species are very social and in bigger numbers, they will become more active. I really would not encourage keeping kuhlis in groups less than 6. Its similar in some ways to a person kept in solitary confinement vs a person not in solitary confinement.

 

[GlennO]

The questions are:
Do they NEED sand?
If they do need sand, can I make only part of the tank sand, and how?
How much food do they need, and how do I know that the shrimp aren't eating it all?

No they don't 'need' sand, as long as the gravel is smooth.
Small loach or catfish tabs are ideal but any sinking pellets will do. Feed them just before lights out and you'll be able to observe them.

 

[wishuponafish]

Theres a couple flaws I see in that kind of experiment.

Gravel traps morsels of food very often. It could easily be that the loaches liked the area because they can find food, and its evident in my group of loaches which 75% of the time search the rocky areas for food particles trapped between the rock.

It also isn't exactly proving they like gravel more since the experiment was only conducted once. There are many factors that influence behaviour.

I bet the only reason the loaches bred is that the eggs fell between the gravel and they hatched there, unlike sand where the eggs would rest on the surface. Could you also link to where someone bred kuhlis? I have personally not come across any reports of breeding of kuhli loaches. Just curious not critisizing.

I personally think that shoaling fish needs numbers in their groups.. Pangio species are very social and in bigger numbers, they will become more active. I really would not encourage keeping kuhlis in groups less than 6. Its similar in some ways to a person kept in solitary confinement vs a person not in solitary confinement.

A quick google search:
Breeding Kuhli loaches - Loaches Online Forum
Baby Kuhli Loach Explosion - Loaches Online Forum

Anyone is free to draw their own conclusion from the experiment, it's entirely possible that they hate gravel but were forced to scrounge in it and it's also possible they're comfortable in it too. Sadly we can't talk to loaches so experiments like this are where we begin.

As for breeding them, it's probably been done in sand too. There's no wrong way to do it, and the fact that they spawn and have surviving fry in gravel isn't some kind of unfair advantage or coincidence like you seem to imply, it's evidence that the substrate hasn't bothered them enough to deviate from their ultimate natural objectives.

I've kept kuhlis in gravel and sand, and when they were in a gravel tank, they were shy and they hid during the day at first but after a while they began to be active in broad daylight as well, even when I had only 2 or 3. They're not like tetras who shut down without a shoal, they can function normally in terms of staying active. Are they happier in greater numbers? Yes, that's exactly what I said.

In the end, it's impossible for us to truly understand the mind of a fish and all we can do is draw conclusions from observations. It's dangerous to believe something is the only truth simply because "it's common sense;"
all of my observations and anecdotes of others have only suggested that they can thrive at least as well on gravel as on sand as long as the material isn't sharp enough to hurt them.

If reproduction and general vigor and vitality aren't indicators of a fish thriving, what is? People are now able to keep many fish alive much longer than they would ever survive in the wild, in conditions far from replicating their native habitat. It's my belief that there isn't a single "right" way to keep fish.

 

[jake37]

I have 11 in one tank (120); 11 in another tank (29) and 7 in a third tank (29). In the 120 i know where to find at least a few of them and sometimes they come out and play during the day but not often. In the 29 they pretty much never hide - i started with 2 and they never hid; then added 2 more and they never hid and then added 7 more and they never hid. In the third tnak i started with 4 and from day 1 i could never see them (they do come out at night and glass surf - every night) but during the day they would all hide in different locations. Now that there are 7 in their i see some of the new ones but the original 4 always hide during the day which is a pity because they have the most amazing patterns (not your normal stripes).
-
Summary kuhli are unpredictable.

 

[GlennO]

...all of my observations and anecdotes of others have only suggested that they can thrive at least as well on gravel as on sand as long as the material isn't sharp enough to hurt them.

Yes. We can only try to recreate their natural habitat as closely as possible but we can never replicate it exactly. Khuli’s naturally live in slow moving forest streams vegetated on the margins with lots of debris, leaf litter and decomposing matter on the bottom. That’s why they don’t like being exposed. So if we wanted to recreate their environment more closely we would have tanks with muddy bottoms covered with lots of leaves and messy debris.

I’m pretty sure my wife would object to me turning our planted display tank into a tannin stained messy muddy creek. So the best I can do is a sand substrate with lots of plant cover and other hidey holes.

 

[jake37]

I have this jungle of java fern (about 10 inches long and 6 inches deep) and stuff like pleco and kuhli love to hide in it.

 

[wishuponafish]

Yes. We can only try to recreate their natural habitat as closely as possible but we can never replicate it exactly. Khuli’s naturally live in slow moving forest streams vegetated on the margins with lots of debris, leaf litter and decomposing matter on the bottom. That’s why they don’t like being exposed. So if we wanted to recreate their environment more closely we would have tanks with muddy bottoms covered with lots of leaves and messy debris.

I’m pretty sure my wife would object to me turning our planted display tank into a tannin stained messy muddy creek. So the best I can do is a sand substrate with lots of plant cover and other hidey holes.

I'm saying they don't absolutely need sand as some folks here say, answering OP's question. As far as the hobby goes, I don't think it's wrong to keep a fish in an environment different from their natural habitat as long as they're healthy and happy, otherwise where do we draw the line? Is pink gravel or a non-planted tank animal cruelty?
Do shoaling tetras need a school? Yes. But do kuhlis need sand? No, they can be just as healthy and active and live just as long in gravel.

 

[GlennO]

I'm saying they don't absolutely need sand as some folks here say, answering OP's question. As far as the hobby goes, I don't think it's wrong to keep a fish in an environment different from their natural habitat as long as they're healthy and happy, otherwise where do we draw the line? Is pink gravel or a non-planted tank animal cruelty?
Do shoaling tetras need a school? Yes. But do kuhlis need sand? No, they can be just as healthy and active and live just as long in gravel.

Yes I was agreeing with you. Is smooth gravel ok for Khuli's? Yes. Would sand be better? Probably. Is it essential? No.

 

[FinalFins]

A quick google search:
Breeding Kuhli loaches - Loaches Online Forum
Baby Kuhli Loach Explosion - Loaches Online Forum

Anyone is free to draw their own conclusion from the experiment, it's entirely possible that they hate gravel but were forced to scrounge in it and it's also possible they're comfortable in it too. Sadly we can't talk to loaches so experiments like this are where we begin.

As for breeding them, it's probably been done in sand too. There's no wrong way to do it, and the fact that they spawn and have surviving fry in gravel isn't some kind of unfair advantage or coincidence like you seem to imply, it's evidence that the substrate hasn't bothered them enough to deviate from their ultimate natural objectives.

I've kept kuhlis in gravel and sand, and when they were in a gravel tank, they were shy and they hid during the day at first but after a while they began to be active in broad daylight as well, even when I had only 2 or 3. They're not like tetras who shut down without a shoal, they can function normally in terms of staying active. Are they happier in greater numbers? Yes, that's exactly what I said.

In the end, it's impossible for us to truly understand the mind of a fish and all we can do is draw conclusions from observations. It's dangerous to believe something is the only truth simply because "it's common sense;"
all of my observations and anecdotes of others have only suggested that they can thrive at least as well on gravel as on sand as long as the material isn't sharp enough to hurt them.

If reproduction and general vigor and vitality aren't indicators of a fish thriving, what is? People are now able to keep many fish alive much longer than they would ever survive in the wild, in conditions far from replicating their native habitat. It's my belief that there isn't a single "right" way to keep fish.

The first link is Pangio oblonga which I have seen report of breeding. Second doesn't specify it is a Kuhli loach or a black kuhli or any other species.

 

[BlackMolly99]

Thank you for all the great replies
I'm sorry it took me so long to get back. I wasn't getting notified for some reason
I think what I will do is put a shallow dish full of sand in the tank, and have some hornwort stems in there.
I just hope that doesn't make a terrible mess!

 

[RedGallant]

give them a pvc tube about 5-6 inches they love those and yes you will need sand. try to get at least 6 of them.

I don't use sand but I use very large gravel, and they seem to like the larger round gravel.

 

[FishBoy101]

I would definitely upgrade the tank if you want more kulhis, cause they need to be in larger groups. Just a heads up, Petco has their 1 dollar 1 gallon sale going on right now!

 

[BlackMolly99]

I don't use sand but I use very large gravel, and they seem to like the larger round gravel.

Do yours go into spaces between the pieces of gravel?

Aaahh.... it bugs me. Canada doesn't get those sales

 

[FishBoy101]

Aaahh.... it bugs me. Canada doesn't get those sales

Ah, rip. I didn't look at the location, sorry.

 

[BlackMolly99]

Ha ha. No problem, thanks for telling me anyway.

 

[RedGallant]

Do yours go into spaces between the pieces of gravel?

Yeah

 

[Khuligirl]

Hi, just jumping in, I have a 29 gallon tank. 7 chocolate/ pango khulis? I have small to medium rounded gravel. High water, hard water and high lights and only 1 live plant. I have 3 week old babies now.

 

[jake37]

Baby khuli or baby human ? Baby khuli in the aquarium tend to be uncommon.

Hi, just jumping in, I have a 29 gallon tank. 7 chocolate/ pango khulis? I have small to medium rounded gravel. High water, hard water and high lights and only 1 live plant. I have 3 week old babies now.

 

[Khuligirl]

Baby khuli or baby human ? Baby khuli in the aquarium tend to be uncommon.

Baby loaches, never had kids.

 

[BlackMolly99]

Hi, just jumping in, I have a 29 gallon tank. 7 chocolate/ pango khulis? I have small to medium rounded gravel. High water, hard water and high lights and only 1 live plant. I have 3 week old babies now.

How much do you feed your kuhlis?

 

[FinalFins]

Hi, just jumping in, I have a 29 gallon tank. 7 chocolate/ pango khulis? I have small to medium rounded gravel. High water, hard water and high lights and only 1 live plant. I have 3 week old babies now.

If they are labled chocolate I would be inclined to think they are java loaches

Nice babies

 

[jake37]

Pangio oblonga !! I want more pangio myersi

If they are labled chocolate I would be inclined to think they are java loaches

Nice babies

 

[Khuligirl]

How much do you feed your kuhlis?

I feed them twice a day. I have a wide variety if fish in my tank so I'm feeding 4-5 different types of food daily. I am guilty of over feeding as well, however, I do a large gravel vac every 5-6 days and my ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates are very stable.

If they are labled chocolate I would be inclined to think they are java loaches

Nice babies

Thank you for informing me. The large chain is the only pet store in several hundred miles of me. I never do really trust them. The babies are growing fast. Unfortunately I've only seen 8 maybe. I feel terrible admitting that I gravel vacced a huge number. They are impossible to see when first hatched. They are adorable though and nearly impossible to photograph. Their still very skittish unlike the adults.

 

[jake37]

I would ask if you did anything special to get them to breed but my guess is it just happened. I have 11 in one tank and 9 in another but i've never seen any little ones. Hum. Maybe they are there and i just don't see them - i have large piles of java moss and similar so they could hide in that stuff and i would never know ...

 

[Khuligirl]

I would ask if you did anything special to get them to breed but my guess is it just happened. I have 11 in one tank and 9 in another but i've never seen any little ones. Hum. Maybe they are there and i just don't see them - i have large piles of java moss and similar so they could hide in that stuff and i would never know ...

I pretty much did the exact opposite of the how to breed guide. I started with 9 loaches and 2 passed within the week. 3 months later I had babies. I couldn't tell you.... I do know it takes several years for them to reach sexual maturity. So maybe just give them time. Also, the hatchlings are a fraction the size of a baby guppy. You'd never see them. They are easy prey for tank mates.

 

[jake37]

Yea - in my larger tank i have this huge mass of java fern - something like 2 feet x 1 feet solid mass of many plants - about 10 kuhli live in that stuff but the larger fishes tend to not go too deep (the bottoms of the java fern is just above the substrate with the 'roots' hanging down forming sort of a false bottom). Given the size of the stuff i suspect something could hide in there and i'd never see it. Heck most days of the year i never see the adults

 

[Khuligirl]

Yea - in my larger tank i have this huge mass of java fern - something like 2 feet x 1 feet solid mass of many plants - about 10 kuhli live in that stuff but the larger fishes tend to not go too deep (the bottoms of the java fern is just above the substrate with the 'roots' hanging down forming sort of a false bottom). Given the size of the stuff i suspect something could hide in there and i'd never see it. Heck most days of the year i never see the adults

Oh, that's too bad you never see them. I'll have to post videos but my adults are out 24 hours a day it seems. Swimming and racing through the tank. Mine don't seem shy at all. Just the little ones. I do want to move them into a 55 gallon some time this month but have NO idea how I'm going to catch the babies without hurting them. Their just over an inch now.

 

[jake37]

It is weird - in one tank they always hide 'cept for 2 or 3 weeks a year when they all come out and glass surf. In another tank it is almost opposite they never hide... who knows - i tried asking them but they won't tell me.

 

[Khuligirl]

Lol, little buggars! Maybe the tank they hide allot in are just younger loaches? I have no idea. Fish Prozac?

 

[jake37]

No the ones that hide are giant - they are huge. They all look like my myersi but a lot of them are not myersi. They like to swim with the yoyo loaches at night (the yoyo is a 6 inch fish - well the large ones - the small ones are still 3ish inch).

Lol, little buggars! Maybe the tank they hide allot in are just younger loaches? I have no idea. Fish Prozac?