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Bloodworms: frozen or freeze dried? Discuss.
How Attached Are They To Us?
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Ha! Warren IS an excitable boy. ...he flares a lot.
Harry definitely looks like he’s had the life of a repo man. I swear he sneaks cigarettes while I’m gone.
Tom Petty ..uh... he does not live like a refugee. He doesn’t think that the waiting is the hardest part. He’s actually very un-Tom Pettylike.
And I agree, I LOVE fish behavior speculation. I have to stare at the little cups all day in the pet store I work in and it’s odd that they go NUTS for some people but stay motionless for others.
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Not to be the voice of reason in this thread of (half-drunk?) enthusiastic fish keepers.. but there is an important distinction to make here.
Are fish more intelligent than most people assume?
Yes. Definitely. Only recently have we begun to understand, with most non-primates actually, just how clever and adaptable even 'lower' animals are to both new and familiar surroundings.
HOWEVER. This does not mean that they possess the sort of skills that we as humans think of as intelligent. It would actually be surprising if fish turned out to not have personalities because having those is a key part of what makes for variations in behaviour that allow for adaptation of the species to their surroundings. It makes total sense.
Do fish have emotional attachment to other species? Eh.. no. Definitely not. It is quite possible that the one tetra in a school of 300 is able to recognise each individual fish in that school as we cannot for the life of us manage. They may be able to tell two very distinctively looking people apart, one of which feeds them (positive) and one of which just taps the glass (scary). But things like canine instincts of not trusting someone they've never met before, etc. No.Just no. That makes no sense.
Given facts about mammal evolution (therefore not sure if it goes for fish) it is actually more likely for schooling fish to have some kind of emotional system or strong sense of recognising and remembering individuals, because it is more likely that social bonds are crucial to their survival. That is an 'if' for the similarity to mammals though, as some other aquatic evolution facts are still puzzles to science (like the intelligence of octopuses).
I'm more interested actually in some skills or capabilities unknown to us that fish are likely to be amazingly good at, that we just don't know to look for because we lack the imagination. Like crows are better at solving particular kind of puzzles than people, and some primates have better short-term memory and attention span than humans.
It is too hard for us landrots to imagine what living in water needs. Maybe they have inbuilt TDS meters accurate to the third decimal? Or they can taste bacteria colonies? Or hear the water salinity?
Are fish more intelligent than most people assume?
Yes. Definitely. Only recently have we begun to understand, with most non-primates actually, just how clever and adaptable even 'lower' animals are to both new and familiar surroundings.
HOWEVER. This does not mean that they possess the sort of skills that we as humans think of as intelligent. It would actually be surprising if fish turned out to not have personalities because having those is a key part of what makes for variations in behaviour that allow for adaptation of the species to their surroundings. It makes total sense.
Do fish have emotional attachment to other species? Eh.. no. Definitely not. It is quite possible that the one tetra in a school of 300 is able to recognise each individual fish in that school as we cannot for the life of us manage. They may be able to tell two very distinctively looking people apart, one of which feeds them (positive) and one of which just taps the glass (scary). But things like canine instincts of not trusting someone they've never met before, etc. No.Just no. That makes no sense.
Given facts about mammal evolution (therefore not sure if it goes for fish) it is actually more likely for schooling fish to have some kind of emotional system or strong sense of recognising and remembering individuals, because it is more likely that social bonds are crucial to their survival. That is an 'if' for the similarity to mammals though, as some other aquatic evolution facts are still puzzles to science (like the intelligence of octopuses).
I'm more interested actually in some skills or capabilities unknown to us that fish are likely to be amazingly good at, that we just don't know to look for because we lack the imagination. Like crows are better at solving particular kind of puzzles than people, and some primates have better short-term memory and attention span than humans.
It is too hard for us landrots to imagine what living in water needs. Maybe they have inbuilt TDS meters accurate to the third decimal? Or they can taste bacteria colonies? Or hear the water salinity?
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You put together much of what I have returned to this thread kany times trying to write but wasn't really able to find the words.
I would find it strange as well if fish didn't have personality or curiosity or many of the other things that seem "human" but actually make evolutionary sense for any animal to have. Obviously different fish from different backgrounds will have different social skills. A larger, non schooling fish will obviously benefit more from exhibiting curiosity because that fish will need to learn more to exploit what it needs to be successful. A schooling fish will benefit more from schooling with kin because using chemical alarms when only your kin are around will help your genetics dominate the ecosystem. A fish in a crowed ecosystem will benefit from having precise social bonds and a data base about your neighbors, such as the elephant fish which has been seen planning ahead of time to sabotage a neighbor that hadn't been a very good one.
Fish are also very observant and make an effort to learn about other species that are not their own. Fish DO understand that a hand is a hand and a face is a face. When I was working with one of the caretakers at the Oregon Aquarium, we would have to put on shaded goggles to catch a fish for examination because if we didn't the fish we were going to catch would see our eyes watching it and we'd have no chance of ever catching them in the large exhibits. They'd hide before the net came within ten feet of it. Octopus, which are not fish, but still considered unadvanced, understand how fish breath and can use their tentacles to strangle an attacker. Animals are aware of your body. They are also extremely aware of their surroundings and have been observed using the reflections on the top of the water to hunt prey it can't see around rocks or other obstructions. So yes, a fish will always be watching you from even the other side of the room. Its advantageous to be aware of your surroundings. I also can only assume fish are capable of becoming bored when not fulfilling their biological callings in home aquaria, so watching people may relieve the animal of some of its boredom. Like people, observing other creature's behaviour is advantageous to animals and likely has a "reward", aka enjoyment or fulfillment. This is why anything, including people, do anything. Including giving to charity. In your mind you have fulfilled the need to be accepted as "good" by your peers, which has been ingrained in us because not being accepted by the group meant death in the olden days.
All of this makes sense. It frankly shouldn't be surprising.
But do I think fish become attached? No. I do not think fish suffer any feeling of loss if one owner stops feeding as long as another takes their place. They would notice the change, yes, but they wouldn't feel loss, because they didn't lose anything. They still receive the same benefits. They are not able to attach themselves to our personalities because we have no way to communicate with them and for them to know these nuisances. If the food tastes the same, what does it matter?
You certainly know your musicians. Warren has been my favorite since 1977? I even have a menu from Lee Ho ****'s, in Picadilly. Movies, too. Have you seen Harry in "Wise Blood?" Another very strange character. Not a big smoker in that one.
I like the rationales for the names you have given your cast of characters. An endless source of ejoyment, and entertainment, for you. I only have one, and Perry does seem to be happy with this present environment. I know he has not had a better one. Now a Betta from the wild, that would be most interesting, for sure.
Le't see what else we learn from this thread.
Here in NC, mail order spirits may be problematic. I'll research this further.
Do we need a voice of reason? I do like your thoughts regarding unknown capabilities that fish may have, and people having limitations in imagination. There are things we may never figure out. I can almost see Perry plotting ways to get behind me, and scare me, sometime. His stomach may be small, but not his mind.
I spent much time, energy, and money, in the first few weeks, trying to find food Perry would eat, let alone like. He turns his nose up at flakes. For me, the convenience of freeze dried food was important. I have no concerns about their nutritional value. On the other hand, I was unsure about the risk of impure/bacterial agents in frozen foods. In the end, I think both of our Bettas are getting all they need from the food we give them.
I have been getting Perry to jump up at FD blood worms dangled above the water on the end of a tooth pick. Some attempts are better than others. I will keep trying.
There is more that could be done to shed some light on this subject. A most curious idea.
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My fishes don't recognize me, they recognise the bottle of fish food -_- they have 0 reaction when I walk past the tank or stand around, but they freak out the moment I grab the food bottle.
On a side note, I'm guessing fishes are doing what they do due to positive reinforcement. They come to you for food, they get rewarded with food or some other reward. This reinforces the idea that a certain behaviour will give them a certain reward, this therefore could possibly train them to act in a certain manner. They probably have a connection with the reward, but probably not with the human.
On a side note, I'm guessing fishes are doing what they do due to positive reinforcement. They come to you for food, they get rewarded with food or some other reward. This reinforces the idea that a certain behaviour will give them a certain reward, this therefore could possibly train them to act in a certain manner. They probably have a connection with the reward, but probably not with the human.
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Nothing wrong with freeze dried foods. Most are cleaner than live or frozen. People fear freeze dried because they think the fish will eat it dry and when it gets wet in the stomach it will expand and kill the fish. So just soak it for a min before . Live food I would say is the worst. To many bad things in it and on it. Frozen is all up to what the company does before freezing it.
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Two things, an Octopus is a very intelligent creature. Much more so than fish. Research has proven that. Secondly, for those who intend to try to talk with their Bettas. Remember this. If the Betta is imported from Thailand, it will have no idea what you are saying.
Freeze dried are okay in moderation. However my post was meant to simulate a debate between a person and their fish.
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I like both. The freeze-dried ones have a somewhat unusual personality; they show affection very sparingly, and seem to like their space. They like to keep interaction to a minimum, and it is always done on their timetable rather than yours. They are funny, but with a mischievous air that adds a lot excitement to any conversations I have with them. I feel that they accept me, certainly don't mind having me around, but don't really feel actual affection towards me. They are cordial rather effusive.
Frozen bloodworms, on the other hand, wear their hearts on their sleeves. They aren't subtle and they aren't coy; if they don't like you, you will most assuredly know it. But...if they decide that they do like you...you will have a special relationship with them, unrivalled by any other type of fish food,.whether frozen, live or dried. They demand to be treated as equals rather than subordinates...but that sounds like it would be easy for many Fishlore members.
Actually, I prefer live bloodworms to either of the above. Tons of fun, never a dull moment...but they only respond if you speak to them in Klingon.
Granted not schooling type fish but my pair of Kissing Gourami are very strange in their behaviour
They were supplied together, lived together in the same aquarium for several weeks but then had a serious falling out late one night...and I mean a serious falling out too.
I had to split them up and place them in different aquariums 6ft apart and they cannot physically see each other. Both aquariums are identical size & manufacturer.
The two fish shadow each other's movements constantly. They sleep in the same corner as each other, they hang around and swim in the same way, same parts of the aquariums as each other.....oddest behaviour of all they will do their kissing dominance against the ends of the aquariums facing each other despite being totally unable to see each other they will push against the glass as if they were in the same aquarium still. The two fish know and mirror each other at any given time day or night even though they no longer share an aquarium
They sense each other's presence, its uncanny...almost like the psychological connection that happens with multiple sibling humans sometimes
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Actually (for mammals) it turns out that animals that live in a complex social setting, like herds or families or flocks, have a more developed intellect. The theory behind it is - though unconfirmed - that what we think of as intellect actually starts out as the capacity to recognise and remember individuals and individual interactions as well as social events, because appropriate action in a group requires taking into account all of that. Someone steals your food? Need to remember who that is to punish them later. Two individuals are very friendly? Need to remember that so I can expect the other one to act accordingly when I insult or please one of them. Moreover social settings like this are when languages are created, because it is important to communicate increasingly complex information about an increasing number of individuals distributed over an increasing space. This is where, presumably, our own intelligence and that of other primates comes from, before we started to repurpose that brain capacity for other types of cognitive skills.
We think of herd behaviour as mindless but in truth it takes more brains to anticipate and react in tandem with other individuals (predicting their thinking patterns) than it does to make a decision by yourself (when you only have to think of the physical situation itself). Though it looks less impressive.
Obviously there are exceptions to this, but in general 'dumb sheep' have a better chance at developing high levels of intelligence than the 'clever lion'. Kind of ironic, really.
As for emotions, actually, if anything a true schooling fish would be most likely to have anything even remote approaching that concept. A solitary fish, no chance. Why on earth would a predatory fish develop the capacity to feel attachment to an individual when all it ever encounters are competitors and food.
Edit: after also reading this page (sorry I missed that) I am now super curious about the extend to which fish recognise other individual fish. Betta sororities pretty much prove that they can at least recognise members of their own kind, I wonder if schooling fish are able to pick out all the individual other fish in their 100+ school? Or if fish also recognise individuals of other similar species, or even completely different species..
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Interesting theory but I don’t think I would agree that a neon tetra is smarter than an Oscar or that a sheep is smarter than a dog. Same applies to ocean fish, eg a Grouper has more intellect than a Tuna.
Let's all keep in mind that when you say "fish" it is the same thing taxonomically speaking as saying "Mammal" or "Reptile." There is a huuuuuuuuge difference between a shrew and a chimpanzee social/intelligence-wise... the same goes for different kinds of fish! While you can't really make blanket statements about fish intelligence or social behavior, there are definitely some stand-outs in the pet trade that seem to be curious about/enjoy human company. I know I'm biased towards goldfish, being as how they are largely my only fish keeping experience, but I have really been taken aback by their behavior towards me, food or not. They *clearly* get bored and I try to make sure their tank is an enriching space for them. The one that can see well *clearly* enjoys being close to my face (which does not feed her!). I also engage in "play" with my fish, by wafting water currents at them, letting them 'chase' the food in my fingers, playing chase or 'follow,' "herding," and gentle touches.
I think the 'play' may be really important here... there was a study done with rats where 1 group was given a food reward for solving a maze, the other group was given fun 'tickles' as a reward for solving the maze... the 'food reward' rats eventually sort of got bored of it and didn't do the puzzle any faster, but the 'tickle' rats jumped at the chance to get the maze solved and have the fun stuff.
That said, I think my fish are happy to see me because of a good and 'fun' association, not just about food. "food" is the easy way to have a positive interaction with a pet, but it ultimately just leads to a 'oh you are the food dispenser' sort of relationship. Imagine if you never pet or talked to or played with a dog, you just shunted it food and left. It'll be happy to see you but you have no relationship with that animal. Some fish are pretty simple, that's about as good as you're going to get... but others *definitely* have a kind of social intelligence and enjoy other kinds of interactions if you give them a chance and take their natural instincts and behaviors into account. (really this applies to any animal... even *gasp* HUMAN CHILDREN)
I think the 'play' may be really important here... there was a study done with rats where 1 group was given a food reward for solving a maze, the other group was given fun 'tickles' as a reward for solving the maze... the 'food reward' rats eventually sort of got bored of it and didn't do the puzzle any faster, but the 'tickle' rats jumped at the chance to get the maze solved and have the fun stuff.
That said, I think my fish are happy to see me because of a good and 'fun' association, not just about food. "food" is the easy way to have a positive interaction with a pet, but it ultimately just leads to a 'oh you are the food dispenser' sort of relationship. Imagine if you never pet or talked to or played with a dog, you just shunted it food and left. It'll be happy to see you but you have no relationship with that animal. Some fish are pretty simple, that's about as good as you're going to get... but others *definitely* have a kind of social intelligence and enjoy other kinds of interactions if you give them a chance and take their natural instincts and behaviors into account. (really this applies to any animal... even *gasp* HUMAN CHILDREN)
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Well for one it would depend on how we measure 'intellect'. More to the point though, I'm definitely not saying that any social animal is smarter than a solitary one, just that between two similar species (as TheeLadyG pointed out above), the more social ones are more likely to develop abilities on which our human concept of intelligence depends. (Also dogs are incredibly social creatures, they have evolved to co-exist closely with a completely different species and thus we should actually expect them to be way more intelligent than sheep. And sheep do not count because human domestication seriously screwed up their evolutionary development. They were originally goats, which are not even really herd animals, so they make for a poor example.).
Perhaps I should give some example of the abilities I mean.
Language is one - what use would solitary animals have for a well-developed language?
Maths is another one - research suggests the ability to count beyond the difference between single and plural is most useful in negotiations between animals (offering something for something else) and concepts of fairness (it his share equal to mine?), something a solitary animal is unlikely to encounter.
As I've mentioned, the ability to recognise individuals and memorise and understand the relationships between these individuals, as well as empathy, the ability to understand others' way of thinking (in order to anticipate their actions beyond fight or flight) are all abilities way more useful and thus adaptive for a social rather than a solitary animal.
Especially the latter one is something we strongly associate with intelligence. Solitary animals on the other hand might be much better at developing elaborate techniques for chasing or catching prey, which is clearly also smarts, but not really the 'human smarts' that this threads is discussing attributing to (particular species of) fish.
Fish definitely get bored though, and that too makes total sense. Every once in a while I move some stuff around, remove or add some plants and when the temperature gets hotter add a small second filter which creates a lot of splash. All to keep my fish entertained (and myself, much more fun to watch ^^).
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Interesting question!
Like Wolf010 said, schooling fish don't seem to care. I'm sure they recognize each other though. After all, they recognize the person who feeds them.
But I've seen my other fish form relationships. They obviously experience fear, happiness, comfort, enjoy playing, and form relationships with other fish both of their own species and other species. But do they experience sadness when a fish they have a relationship gets moved or passes away? We can't ask them obviously... And they don't have easy to read body motions like dogs.
I haven't seen fish show sadness personally. But puffer fish are known to pout. This lady I follow on instagram who works at a public aquarium and trains their puffers told us a story about the fish pouting for 3 days. She has target trained it. But a couple weeks ago she forgot to feed it after it bit the target it was supposed to. After that, it went and hid and ignored her for 3 days! It came up and greeted the other trainers, but ignored her. It got over it in 3 days.
I've also read tons of stories on thepufferforum about people's puffers that pout when they're fed something they don't like. They'll take a bite then spit it out. After realizing they won't be getting any of their favorite food, they'll lay or float in a corner and ignore their owners. Or they'll get mad and attack their reflection in the glass.
So fish clearly can clearly feel sadness, just like they can experience fear, excitement, and joy. I've even read stories in the book "What a Fish Knows" about fish getting sad and pouting when their tank mate passes away or gets moved. So I'd say yes, they can get sad about that.
My first 'fish relationships' happened recently. I always kept schooling fish, but started keeping solitary fish a year ago. My two dwarf puffers are inseparable. Putting a third in there didn't work out because the two were so close and didn't get along with the new one. My dwarf gourami and spotted congo puffer formed a weird relationship. I created a thread about it a couple weeks ago if you want to read it. But with those two "fish relationships", I've never separated them. So I don't know how they'd react.
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Interesting! I had never owned goldfish until recently, but they are a good example. In addition to your idea of the enormous variance under the word "fish"...in the case of something like goldfish that has been domesticated for literally thousands of years, there is another step of human interaction. A domestic goldfish is going to be more likely to view humans as part of their social group than a wild Prussian carp. Just like a domestic cow is going to vs. a wild ox. Or a pet dog vs. a wolf. Goldfish have been under our care and selection for ages. Like dogs, humans would select the most appealing ones as pets. What is appealing to us, as social animals, is sociability, right? So it would also stand to reason that a long domesticated fish would be more social with humans than something like a red rainbowfish that was only discovered twenty years ago.
I still don't think they "love" us or get emotionally attached, but I can see them recognizing us as part of their group.
And how about an example like a yellow watchman goby that forms a bond with a pistol shrimp. Not the same species, or even the same order...but they recognize a benefit. Or any other symbiotic relationship? When did recognition become instinct?
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I think frozen cubed foods are the way to go. My female bettas at least grow twice the size that they were when I bought them in the store. As long as the tank has a filter, you won't have to worry about food just wasting away and clouding the tank water.I also like to feed mine cobalt color flakes. They don't expand, and the fish can't over eat. They certainly do try, but the way the flakes are makes it so when their stomachs are full, they can't consume any more flakes, no matter how much they try.
Pellets are a lot faster to feed, but I find many bettas who are never able to consume them. I have no idea why, but they can't stomach it. They'll try to eat for a while, but after the third or fourth time it's ejected, they just leave it alone. I have never had a betta who would not consume flakes or shrimp.
Pellets are a lot faster to feed, but I find many bettas who are never able to consume them. I have no idea why, but they can't stomach it. They'll try to eat for a while, but after the third or fourth time it's ejected, they just leave it alone. I have never had a betta who would not consume flakes or shrimp.
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I treat my little munchkins twice a week with a mix of freeze dried brine shrimp and tubiflex
I use an old nutmeg grater to turn the freeze dried cubes into manageable pieces....once put into the aquariums the munchkins make very short work of it
I use an old nutmeg grater to turn the freeze dried cubes into manageable pieces....once put into the aquariums the munchkins make very short work of it
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I've never had a problem with that with bettas. Mine normally just swim very close to the walls of the tank, trying to push through it. A lot of my other freshwater fish sometimes crash into the walls though. They aren't the most graceful. XD
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My Betta has a crowd of White Clouds with him, they get along brilliantly and are funny to watch sometimes...
Murf, the Betta, likes to school with the Minnows a lot or play hide & seek with the around the mopani. The Minnows & Betta are all very young & small still and by the end of the day the Minnows tell me when they want to go to bed and sleep.
I have not seen fish do this and initially I thought something was wrong but they are absolutely fine...
Come the evening and after the aquarium lights have been on for around 8 hours, I get very tiny tapping noises from their aquarium. The baby Minnows are tapping the glass with their noses or tails and once they get my attention the swim on their sides....mimicking swim bladder problems.....all I get is "tap, tap, tap" and I look and they flip onto their sides. So I turn off the lights of the aquarium and off they go...with Murf...into the plants & swim-through or under/behind the mopani. Next morning lights go on and they are fresh and bouncy and waiting to be fed....and all swimming upright.
Not come across fish who tell me when they want the lights off at night and to go to bed...flipping onto their sides after attracting attention.....nothing at all wrong with any of the fish, they just want to go sleep
Murf, the Betta, likes to school with the Minnows a lot or play hide & seek with the around the mopani. The Minnows & Betta are all very young & small still and by the end of the day the Minnows tell me when they want to go to bed and sleep.
I have not seen fish do this and initially I thought something was wrong but they are absolutely fine...
Come the evening and after the aquarium lights have been on for around 8 hours, I get very tiny tapping noises from their aquarium. The baby Minnows are tapping the glass with their noses or tails and once they get my attention the swim on their sides....mimicking swim bladder problems.....all I get is "tap, tap, tap" and I look and they flip onto their sides. So I turn off the lights of the aquarium and off they go...with Murf...into the plants & swim-through or under/behind the mopani. Next morning lights go on and they are fresh and bouncy and waiting to be fed....and all swimming upright.
Not come across fish who tell me when they want the lights off at night and to go to bed...flipping onto their sides after attracting attention.....nothing at all wrong with any of the fish, they just want to go sleep
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