Feel As Though I Was Sold A Lie

[Molasses]

Hi all,

I'm writing this partially as a vent of this hobby, and partially in hope to solicit feedback from other hobbyists. For context, I've been in the hobby for about 7 years now. I've had a variety of setups throughout the years, but my main goal has always been to keep a South American Cichlid tank. I've kept smaller versions of this setup with less stock over these 7 years, and when it comes to Cichlids, my setups usually end in variations of the exact same way.

This "dream" setup of mine has been going for a few months now. It's a 210 gallon tank, as I always wanted to follow what my research has told me to do. Bigger tank = less chance of aggression. It also didn't hurt to have more stocking room available, too. In setting up this tank, as well as my other past not-so-successful cichlid tanks, I've always tried to apply all of the research I read/watched and all of the setups I've seen online from other hobbyists. I avoided "more aggressive" cichlids for "peaceful" cichlids. I aimed for species compatibility. I added fish in order of aggression with the most peaceful species going in first. I added fish of similar size with similar growth rate. I added large driftwood and some rocks to provide cover. Yet somehow, some way, despite feeling like I've followed everything I've ever researched over the past few years, I'm still ending up with aggression.

In particular, I had 4 Severums (roughly 6 inches) that I gathered from LFS's over the past few months who were all rescues from different established tanks that were taken down. They were the least of my worries because every cichlid keeper I've ever talked to or followed called them "easy" and "gentle giants". My Turquoise Severum recently died after being chased by my Green Severum ever since he cleared quarantine (thank you to those of you who helped me with that in my last post, your advice was much appreciated but he unfortunately passed). During that entire process, my formed pair of Gold Severums were above both the Turquoise and Green on the hierarchy, but they have always been peaceful. This week, mthe Gold pair spawned. And while they were protective, they did not cause chaos in the tank. Today, I woke up to no remaining eggs, and now the Green Severum is relentlessly chasing the Gold pair. I see no damage to their fins yet, but it's been stressing me out to watch, and I'm frustrated because I had thought the hierarchy had calmed down after the Turquoise died. Now both Gold Severums look stressed.

My default solution is pretty simple, albeit frustrating. I can take the Green Severum back. However, as usual with all of my fish purchases that don't go right over the years, I won't get any money back, and I'll be tasked with the decision of giving up on my original stocking plans, or rolling the dice and spending MORE money on a replacement Green Severum while I wait for the next territorial disaster to occur in the tank. I really do feel that despite my experience, knowledge, and precaution I've tried to grow through this hobby, it has brought me little reward in return. I feel as though I am failing with "entry level" cichlids when I see more peaceful Severum tanks at my wife's hair salon with 8 of them crammed in a crusty, small 40 gallon bowfront tank that looks like it hasn't been cleaned in years. It is a bit bewildering that I feel like I'm the only one consistently failing with cichlids when others seem to barely lift a finger and have no aggression problems at all. This is not the first fish I had to take out of this system alone, as I had a Blood Parrot as well that was too aggressive.

I appreciate FishLore existing as a platform where I can share my frustrations with fishkeepers who know so much. I'd appreciate your advice on my current issue with my Severums, as the issue only started today. I'd also appreciate any advice you can give on cichlid tanks in general, and if I should just give up on this goal if this is just what I should expect with any cichlids. I feel like a lot of time and money has gone to complete waste.

 

[A201]

There exists many varieties of new world Cichlids that are relatively peaceful. In particular Electric Blue Acaras, Chocolate Cichlids, Keyhole, Bolivian Rams & Rainbow Cichlids. Just to name a few.

I've kept numerous aggressive Cichlid communities, which included Rivulatus, Festae, Jack Dempsy, Red Texas, Carpintis, many varieties of African Cichlids, too many others to name.

I actually enjoyed keeping all of them and learned a lot along the way.

Nowadays I keep large schooling Barbs, Danios & Loaches.
Much easier to keep and a lot less stress.

 

[KingOscar]

What I've learned over the decades is to go with the flow, don't fight it. When a certain type of fish or setup refuses to workout for me as I hoped it would I move on. As one example I tried fancy Goldies for a couple years. Studied and followed all the advice. While most of my tropicals had no problems living long healthy lives, I couldn't keep the fancies alive for more than a year. Never again.

The few times I've had aggressive fish I stepped in and fixed it in short order even if it meant re-homing someone. I refuse to subject my fish and myself to this type of stress. Life is too short, and there are plenty of fish that workout well for me. Best wishes to you and your fish.

 

[Molasses]

What I've learned over the decades is to go with the flow, don't fight it. When a certain type of fish or setup refuses to workout for me as I hoped it would I move on.

I suppose that's where I'm stuck at. This setup was the main goal for me in the hobby. African Cichlids would be even more aggression which I certainly didn't want to deal with, same with more aggressive CA/SA's, and smaller fish never gave me the same joy. I also don't intend to hop over to the saltwater side either.

I'm aware I might be overreacting since this new fighting just started today, but based on what happened with my Turquoise Severum I feel I'm racing against the clock a bit. To be honest, if this setup isn't going to work, I wouldn't know what was next. All of the dreaming and planning was for this assortment of fish.

Maybe one day I'll just say screw it and use the tank for 200 tiger barbs or something. I really do want to keep trying to make this build work, but I almost feel like a mad man having to go up to my wife and tell her we might have to net and pack yet another fish in tupperware and head to the LFS. She might not think I'm crazy, but I'm starting to think I am!

 

[A201]

I have 20+ Tiger Barbs included in my Barb, Loach Community. Given the right setup they really aren't all that bad. Lol.

 

[TClare]

Wait and see if the situation continues, three severums is probably not an ideal number, especially if two are a pair. If the green one continues being aggressive and the others are evidently stressed it will be best to rehome the green severum. Instead of trying another severum why not get a group of festivums? Mine always coexist peacefully in a tank just a little larger than yours. There are other peaceful alternatives as well, some that A201 mentioned, Biotodoma, Guianacara, Cleithracara, Uaru to name a few more. I think though, with many cichlids there may be individuals that are more aggressive than usual. For instance I have a group of 7 Guianacaras, they have never been too aggressive even when breeding. But I have two more in a different tank that I accidentally left when I sold some fry, and recently one of them which was a runt and is still fairly small, has started chasing and nipping at the angelfish and Bujurquinas. None of the original seven have ever attacked any other fish.

If you really want a group of severums it would probably be best to,start with a group of small juveniles rather than adults, but even then there would be no guarantee that none would become troublemakers eventually.

Anyway don’t give up, it’s just a question of finding a combination of compatible species and individuals, eventually you will a achieve a peaceful tank.

 

[DaveKS]

I suppose that's where I'm stuck at. This setup was the main goal for me in the hobby. African Cichlids would be even more aggression which I certainly didn't want to deal with, same with more aggressive CA/SA's, and smaller fish never gave me the same joy. I also don't intend to hop over to the saltwater side either.

I'm aware I might be overreacting since this new fighting just started today, but based on what happened with my Turquoise Severum I feel I'm racing against the clock a bit. To be honest, if this setup isn't going to work, I wouldn't know what was next. All of the dreaming and planning was for this assortment of fish.

Maybe one day I'll just say screw it and use the tank for 200 tiger barbs or something. I really do want to keep trying to make this build work, but I almost feel like a mad man having to go up to my wife and tell her we might have to net and pack yet another fish in tupperware and head to the LFS. She might not think I'm crazy, but I'm starting to think I am!

Have you ever thought about trying rainbow fish or maybe even gudgeon like morgurnda morgurnda or adespersa.
Mogurnda - Wikipedia

Totally different vibe. Rainbow fish are like danio etc in that they are active and constantly moving. Super easy to feed and there are so many color variations. Some are 2-3”, some top out at 4-5”+.

Gudgeon like ones above top out in the 4.5-6” range. Also a very smart fish, once they know your finger holding a piece of krill is a safe space they just casually come up and calmly take their portions.
Even some of the $1.98 rainbows you find at Petsmart with proper care and feeding look like this.

 

[GlennO]

Establishing a community of American cichlids can certainly be a challenge. It involves trial and error and a lot of luck. Intermittently rehoming fish is often a part of it.

Don’t be hard on yourself, it’s not your fault. I’ve only been partially successful this time around with my smaller species and I don’t think I’ll keep trying. I’m mixing it up with barbs and larger tetras.

 

[FishDin]

In the end I think you need to find what works for your situation and that often is not the same as what you want or dream it to be.

One example for me is shrimp. I have stopped trying to keep shrimp. I really wanted a beautiful shrimp tank, but after spending a lot of money and time, I have failed 5 times with neocaridina . I have not been able to keep shrimp alive for more than a couple weeks. I've tried amano shirimp with the same result. I have been guided by people with many years of shrimp keeping experience. I've followed all of their advice very carefully. Nothing has worked. It sure can be frustrating when there are people who seem clueless about shrimp keeping who simple toss some shrimp in their tank and are soon overrun with a thriving colony. Often they don't even know what their water parameters are. Oh well, life's too short. I moved on from my shrimp keeping dreams.

On a positive note, there are so many cool fish available from all kinds of interesting ecosystems that one can usually find another fish to be obsessed about

 

[KribensisLover1]

Ugh I tried cichlids in SO many forms over the years and it’s just never peaceful. You always have hiding etc etc. the only ones I’ve had luck with are angelfishes. I finally caved and did one peaceful community tank and am about to do a species only tetra tank. I would have found this boring before but watching fish actually swim and be out and about is more fun than constant hiding etc etc.

 

[Molasses]

Thanks all for your thoughts. You've grounded me a lot here which I appreciate. I guess sometimes reality in this hobby is different than the guarantees we're given by the internet and fish stores.

I've come to terms with rehoming the Green Severum if there's no improvements today. My dramatic tone in this thread may not have given this impression, but this community is actually doing well otherwise with stable EBA pair, Geo Tapajos, a small Oscar and a much nicer Blood Parrot tank boss in addition to the Severums I talked about here. It was a "fully stocked" setup prior to the recent issues. Even when I take this guy back, though he's one of my favorite fish, I'll still have a pretty strong community left over.

I'm sure this won't be the last aggression issue I face in this setup, but I'm in better spirits with trying some new things. The only real remaining downside is that I don't necessarily have the real estate to devote to grow-out tanks, so each attempt I make for this setup will be with larger, expensive fish that I certainly won't be able to get a refund on if things don't work out.

 

[A201]

The "Cichlid Charmer" on YouTube often discusses Cichlid aggression situations like yours.

He keeps larger new world Cichlids as well as African Cichlids in large tanks similar to yours.

Might be worth a look.

 

[Molasses]

The "Cichlid Charmer" on YouTube often discusses Cichlid aggression situations like yours.

He keeps larger new world Cichlids as well as African Cichlids in large tanks similar to yours.

Might be worth a look.

I've been following David's channel for a long time. He's been one of the most realistic voices about aggression that I've followed over the years. I can relate to him right now more than ever before!

 

[A201]

I enjoy his humorous presentation and the beautiful tanks.

 

[TClare]

Ugh I tried cichlids in SO many forms over the years and it’s just never peaceful. You always have hiding etc etc. the only ones I’ve had luck with are angelfishes. I finally caved and did one peaceful community tank and am about to do a species only tetra tank. I would have found this boring before but watching fish actually swim and be out and about is more fun than constant hiding etc etc.

Funnily enough angelfish, or at least certain individuals, are the most aggressive South American cichlids I have kept and those I have had to rehome. My large SA cichlid tank is very peaceful, it’s definitely possible to achieve. My severum is peaceful and many years ago I kept a pair that bred, but were kept on their own. From what I have read though, severums may be rather less predictable in temperament than some of the other species mentioned.

 

[Molasses]

Hi all, quick update. He's been returned to the LFS. The golds were in the upper corner hiding all morning and that was the last sign I needed.

I'm fortunate enough that my main store is super helpful. The tank feels empty and quiet despite still being stocked and active. I'm bummed I'm now down half my severums, but I'm looking forward to the future. Thanks again.

 

[KribensisLover1]

Isn’t it crazy how at least imho none of the reputations fish have are really true? My peaceful kribensis were actually insane and aggressive. All my angels have been so kind and docile. It’s so wild.

 

[mulletmcnasty]

When this type of thing has happened to me, which it has, I've always tended to think, the internet was right, I'm just a poor fish keeper.
Lately, I've been like if "it works for me then that's how I'm going to do it". I don't offer much advice because we all have such different setups, but on the other hand I do ask for advice. Internet schizophrenia?
Good luck with your setup, I hope it works out for you.

 

[Leeman75]

I can certainly feel your pain. I put a 7" Severum into an established SA/CA tank years ago with adult EBAs, Rainbow Cichlids, and Firemouths. He became insanely aggressive making the Firemouths cower and relentlessly chasing the EBAs, which I had never seen any fish do before. EBAs traditionally have had problems with bo other fish. Suffice it to say, after a month or so of trying all sorts of things, I had to rehome the Severum. And then all went back to normal.

What could potentially be part of the issue with the severums was adding 4 similar size and aged fish at the same time. They are instant opps and even moreso with pairing/spawning. I've always had much better luck starting my mix of fish off as juveniles and letting them grow together. Adult fish that are similar sized being added is much more likely to cause issues in my experience.