German Blue Rams Laid Eggs!

[clark12]

Sorry, different time zone in UK...I have recently had similar experience, so what I learned from research:
1. Likely that parents need a few times to practice parenting without eating eggs or fry. Bad news is that some GBRs are sterile but you will know soon if eggs are fertile. Good news is a pair will likely spawn every 3-4 weeks
2. The corys and tetras are probably going to eat your eggs( corys) and fry ( tetras) and they would have better chances on their own.
3. You can remove eggs to put in separate tank, breeder net might work but eggs without parents are likely to fungus and you need a bubbler moving the water around them( give it a Google), also GBR fry are tiny and would escape those plastic live bearer breeding boxes. Also IMO it's amazing to have parents raise their fry and there are opinions that this teaches the fry better parenting once they are old enough to breed.
4. I would leave as is for first few spawnings and if your eggs are viable and you want to breed them consider your options again.

Let us know how it goes, maybe you have extremely nice corys and tetras

Oh- parents will get aggressive when breeding, but you might be ok with your stocking.
So, hope that helps!

thanks Harlequin, and sorry got a little excited and nervous. I'm not really trying to breed but we clean these tanks and wash them down, change the water, raise the fish, change their diapers and the my first pair of fish form and lay eggs that are fertile. oh ya, this morning I checked again and momma is sitting over her translucent eggs. I know the infertile eggs, in my 20l my shellie tank, they lay eggs every 3-4 weeks but they are solids white. the shells don't pair or act like these gbr's are. its pretty cool, and yes very aggressive behavior to protect. no cory is getting near these eggs to eat them, but daddy gbr doesn't mind a snack here and there. and as for my cardinals, they aren't bothering anything. its weird if they get even close to the eggs, the gbr's really don't care. now, if the other gbr's are even on that side of the tank...look out. thanks and I'm leaving it be.

Leave it. Fry are unlikely to survive after the parents stop tending to them, but it's a cool experience nonetheless.

If you want you raise the fry, in this case the parents and eggs would need to be removed and put into another tank. I always let cichlids raise their eggs and fry for a month at least. They do a lot better than we can.

The other GBRS and tetras won't eat the eggs, and in fact won't even get near the eggs as the parents are quite aggressive during spawning. The stress of the other fish may cause the parents to each the eggs themselves however.

exactly right, awesome experience. no fish is getting near those eggs, the other gbr's can't even go on that side of the tank. thanks Mike they're staying in. I'll put up some pics soon

 

[Harlequin]

MikeRad89- pretty sure my bandit corys snatched a lot of eggs of one batch - but only at night and before I left a little light on.
And I agree with the Tetras and other GBR's not getting to the eggs, but especially the tetras might hunt as soon as fry are free swimming.
Totally agree that the others most likely will spook the parents so they will eat their own- that's probably most likely.

My female is gravid again, can't wait to try my luck once more...

And a pic

 

[Culprit]

Are those all fry!? That's awesome!

 

[Harlequin]

All fry- another pic:

 

[clark12]

that's cool, can't wait to see what happens. nice pics

 

[Harlequin]

Any update on your eggs?

 

[clark12]

Any update on your eggs?

ya sorry, they both ate them. I think I could see a black dot or something forming in the eggs. they were I there for almost 4 days, they were definitely fertile eggs. I was a bit disappointed but out of 5 purchased gbr 3 male and 2 female I now have 2 pair. still very cool to watch. thanks for asking

 

[Culprit]

That stinks

But its awesome you have two pairs!

 

[philly27]

so i woke up this morning to a little surprise in my GBR tank. just the two of them in there. anything i should do? hopefully i dont come home from work and there all eaten. i got them a week ago and still thought they were juveniles.. I know they mature faster then most fish but dang.

 

[BigManAquatics]

From some of my random readings, i seem to recall that keeping the parents with is the thing to do, even though eggs might get eaten. I do not know from experience yet, as i haven't yet kept any rams myself.

 

[philly27]

Yeah I read the same as they’re good parents. I just don’t know if it’s acceptable to do a water change during this process as I don’t want to stress them out or disrupt the eggs.

 

[BigManAquatics]

Yeah I read the same as they’re good parents. I just don’t know if it’s acceptable to do a water change during this process as I don’t want to stress them out or disrupt the eggs.

The way i do it, when i first see newborn platy fry, i just push my water change back 2-3 days usually to give myself a couple of days for them to grow a little bit so maybe i have a chance of seeing them when i start vaccing. Since i generally do 50% weekly, things stay pretty stable so it doesn't really effect things too much if i wait 1.5-2 weeks every so often.

 

[philly27]

The way i do it, when i first see newborn platy fry, i just push my water change back 2-3 days usually to give myself a couple of days for them to grow a little bit so maybe i have a chance of seeing them when i start vaccing. Since i generally do 50% weekly, things stay pretty stable so it doesn't really effect things too much if i wait 1.5-2 weeks every so often.

Okay sweet thanks so much!
Also, what’s a reasonable expectation of survival of these potential eggs? I’ll do extensive research when I get back home.

 

[coralbandit]

Most of those eggs already look infertile . They are white .
You can see a few that are still amber .
That could be just because the pair is young , the pair is not a pair but 2 females , or the water is too hard to allow the eggs to become fertile .
Rams can breed as young as 4 months old but often have a learning curve that makes them in efficient until 6 months . In most cases unless kept properly and luck is on your side rams today make LOUSY parents ..
Not saying there are not pairs that are great parents but the % of pairs like that seems low ..
Pics of both fish so we know you have male female .
Tell me about your water ..Hardness and TDS are more helpful then just pH ..
Breeding rams is easy ..
Raising rams is another story ..
Enjoy ~!

 

[philly27]

Most of those eggs already look infertile . They are white .
You can see a few that are still amber .
That could be just because the pair is young , the pair is not a pair but 2 females , or the water is too hard to allow the eggs to become fertile .
Rams can breed as young as 4 months old but often have a learning curve that makes them in efficient until 6 months . In most cases unless kept properly and luck is on your side rams today make LOUSY parents ..
Not saying there are not pairs that are great parents but the % of pairs like that seems low ..
Pics of both fish so we know you have male female .
Tell me about your water ..Hardness and TDS are more helpful then just pH ..
Breeding rams is easy ..
Raising rams is another story ..
Enjoy ~!

thank you for replying! much appreciated for dropping the knowledge! and they ate the eggs about 18 hours later, i was back home from work and happy they were all there and then i witnessed them eat them one by one.. which was sad. my water is 7.6 pH (my tap is 8.2, but i put almond leaves in every week after water change). my KH is 6 degrees and general hardness is 8 degrees with a 82-84 water temp. they are currently in a 10 gallon. but will be moved to one of my bigger tanks. ill drop some photos. thanks again

 

[Jennmariexoxo]

thank you for replying! much appreciated for dropping the knowledge! and they ate the eggs about 18 hours later, i was back home from work and happy they were all there and then i witnessed them eat them one by one.. which was sad. my water is 7.6 pH (my tap is 8.2, but i put almond leaves in every week after water change). my KH is 6 degrees and general hardness is 8 degrees with a 82-84 water temp. they are currently in a 10 gallon. but will be moved to one of my bigger tanks. ill drop some photos. thanks again

Looks like a male/female pair to me so I would say probably because they're young and still figuring it all out.

 

[philly27]

Looks like a male/female pair to me so I would say probably because they're young and still figuring it all out.

yeah i thought so too while at the store.

 

[philly27]

Most of those eggs already look infertile . They are white .
You can see a few that are still amber .
That could be just because the pair is young , the pair is not a pair but 2 females , or the water is too hard to allow the eggs to become fertile .
Rams can breed as young as 4 months old but often have a learning curve that makes them in efficient until 6 months . In most cases unless kept properly and luck is on your side rams today make LOUSY parents ..
Not saying there are not pairs that are great parents but the % of pairs like that seems low ..
Pics of both fish so we know you have male female .
Tell me about your water ..Hardness and TDS are more helpful then just pH ..
Breeding rams is easy ..
Raising rams is another story ..
Enjoy ~!

Hello, happy Sunday! since last replied to one another my 2 GBRs have laid eggs twice. They ate them again, but this last drop of eggs is different as its been 60+ hours of them (eggs) being carefully watched over by the parents and the eggs are almost kind of bouncing around as if they're about to hatch. is there anything i should do? i did put a sponge over my intake HOB so nothing gets sucked up in addition to having a sponge filter installed. much appreciated btw!

 

[BigManAquatics]

Hello, happy Sunday! since last replied to one another my 2 GBRs have laid eggs twice. They ate them again, but this last drop of eggs is different as its been 60+ hours of them (eggs) being carefully watched over by the parents and the eggs are almost kind of bouncing around as if they're about to hatch. is there anything i should do? i did put a sponge over my intake HOB so nothing gets sucked up in addition to having a sponge filter installed. much appreciated btw!

Hopefully you get a great hatch like my peacock gudgeons just did...almost 100%

 

[philly27]

Hopefully you get a great hatch like my peacock gudgeons just did...almost 100%

im hoping! ive never been so stressed over something i cant control. im hoping for great results

 

[BigManAquatics]

im hoping! ive never been so stressed over something i cant control. im hoping for great results

I wouldn't stress over it too much. Eventually, between knowledge, skill, luck and dumb luck, it will all come together! This one was my first spawn of anything EVER and i got a huge hatch rate....survival rate TBD...while i did do a decent amount of research on breeding and had a clue, i still figure i have been mostly just lucky up to this point!

 

[coralbandit]

They will be wigglers likely as long as it took to hatch .
During this time the parents may move them to a new clean /safe location .
This may make you think they ate them but look to see if one of the pair is protecting a new area and you will likely find them . They won't swim till they are done wiggling / absorbing their yolk sac .
Good luck !

 

[philly27]

They will be wigglers likely as long as it took to hatch .
During this time the parents may move them to a new clean /safe location .
This may make you think they ate them but look to see if one of the pair is protecting a new area and you will likely find them . They won't swim till they are done wiggling / absorbing their yolk sac .
Good luck !

you were correct! they moved them to a new location within my java fern. i am feeding my 2 GBRs more often to help them not eat their eggs... i dont know if that's necessary or warranted. theyre each protecting the eggs in shifts it seems like.

They will be wigglers likely as long as it took to hatch .
During this time the parents may move them to a new clean /safe location .
This may make you think they ate them but look to see if one of the pair is protecting a new area and you will likely find them . They won't swim till they are done wiggling / absorbing their yolk sac .
Good luck !

I added a video. I think there getting close. I feel like they’re moving/bouncing around. Sorry if bad quality.

 

[philly27]

most of them hatched by this afternoon and some started moving pretty well. The parents continuously watch over them and move them back to the "safe" spot once they venture out far enough. i think im going to feed them powered egg yolk or some finely crushed up/powered flake food. hopefully there's a decent survival rate.

 

[BestFishTankGuy]

Hi all. I am running an experiment keeping German blue rams at 78degrees. I have heard a hardier German Blue Ram has been bred. Basically In 2005 or whatever petsmart German blue rams kept dying by the dozens so they stopped carrying them. They were recently introduced again and are supposedly hardier captive bred German blue rams . Able to tolerate lower temperatures. I picked up two about two weeks ago and added them to my community tank. I didn’t expect much. They are juveniles as well so I certainly didn’t except them to be laying eggs so soon. They haven’t even reached full size , I would say they are the size of a Quarter 25 cents.

Lo and behold they have laid eggs.

 

[devilson]

darn u are lucky. congrats

 

[Dunk2]

Hi all. I am running an experiment keeping German blue rams at 78degrees. I have heard a hardier German Blue Ram has been bred. Basically In 2005 or whatever petsmart German blue rams kept dying by the dozens so they stopped carrying them. They were recently introduced again and are supposedly hardier captive bred German blue rams . Able to tolerate lower temperatures. I picked up two about two weeks ago and added them to my community tank. I didn’t expect much. They are juveniles as well so I certainly didn’t except them to be laying eggs so soon. They haven’t even reached full size , I would say they are the size of a Quarter 25 cents.

Lo and behold they have laid eggs.

Congrats on the spawn, but if I’m being honest I’m a bit skeptical about what the result of your experiment will be.

Just out of curiosity, what is the purpose of your experiment? Are you wanting to keep GBR with cooler water fish? If so, there are other things beyond water temperature that you’ll want to consider.

I’m also curious about the source of your information about “hardier captive bred” Rams?

 

[Jack B Nimble]

I am a breeder of the much hardier GBR and all my tanks are around 78-79. My GBR are very healthy and I have never seen an issue other than when I fed blood worms so don't. If you look at some professional breeders in Israel and most in Florida do not have high temps as some claim. The GBR will live longer as its metabolism in slower and my GBR are much larger than imported ones. If you like rams and to further prove the temp theory watch this video and at about 3:00 in the owner describes temps at 78-79.

In my opinion and especially my rams are very hardy, long lived and healthier as they have been raised for generations in my very cold winters. They are long removed from soft waters of the Amazon with low PH and what I feel is false that their temps being 82 - 86. No where have I found proof that the natural habitat to be at those temps to be constant all year and more perhaps for only a brief time. I know some will get upset at my comments but, I think its still good to share our experiences with either philosophy as we can learn from each other.
To close I thought I would add that my pairs breed every 10-14 days with egg count of approx 250-400 with a 90% plus success rate to adults at 78 degrees.

 

[BestFishTankGuy]

Basically, just wanted a pair in my community tank. This all started by online shopping at liveaquaria and I saw captive bred GBR listed for sale temperature 72-79. I e-mailed live aquaria inquiring about what is likely an obvious error, but they stated that’s the temperature they keep them in and have been. I didn’t make a purchase because they couldn’t guarantee me a pair. later on I went to petsmart and saw they had GBR. I inquired about the temperature they keep them at and they have them at 75. I picked up a pair and they have been healthy and happy in my tank at78-80 ever since.


I agree with Jack B nimble on this. My tank also has panda Cory. Many would say my tank is too hot for panda Cory but we forget these fish especially from big chain stores have been mass produced for a long time and have been long removed from the wild. If you buy a GBR or panda Cory or any fish from a big chain LFS you can guarantee they have been bred to be hardy and withstand the temperatures that the store will keep them at. Cooler water fish temperature has been pushed up to 78 and hotter water fish temperature has been pushed down through selective breeding. This is why I believe the old way of keeping fish at specific temperatures is wrong, and I believe that you should keep fish at the temperatures from the LFS you received them at instead .

a perfect example would be Angelfish. I picked up a few angel fish from petsmart, they loved my tank perfectly healthy. And I picked up a few angelfish from a local LFS that were being housed with discus. Even though I acclimated them to my temperature slowly, and are a fish that can tolerate 78-79, they were VERY stressed. Because they had gotten used to being housed with discus they just could not handle my water temperature and I had to return them. I still have the petsmart angels today

 

[LowConductivity]

They are long removed from soft waters of the Amazon with low PH and what I feel is false that their temps being 82 - 86. No where have I found proof that the natural habitat to be at those temps to be constant all year and more perhaps for only a brief time.

82-86 is a stretch. 81/82* year round is not.

Ram Cichlids Mikrogeophagus ramirezi in the Wild - MIKOLJI - RIVER EXPLORER - AUDIOVISUAL ARTIST

Just ask Ivan. He spends more time in the llanos than anyone I can think of that will reply to an email.

 

[Linda1234]

I think these discussion of 78/79 vs 82/83 should of course include the water condition and hardness as well as tds. There is more than just temperature that will impact the longevity of the fish so discussions of this sort can lead to a false impression unless other details are provided.

 

[BestFishTankGuy]

78-79
400 TDS
PH 6.0

 

[Linda1234]

Interesting TDS is way high (i presume you also have hard water); but ph is way low - lower than most causal owners. I wonder if somehow the low PH is offsetting the hard water or perhaps 400 TDS is a typo and it is 40?

78-79
400 TDS
PH 6.0

 

[Jack B Nimble]

82-86 is a stretch. 81/82* year round is not.

Ram Cichlids Mikrogeophagus ramirezi in the Wild - MIKOLJI - RIVER EXPLORER - AUDIOVISUAL ARTIST

Just ask Ivan. He spends more time in the llanos than anyone I can think of that will reply to an email.

Read the article and all he says is the water was 82 in 1 foot of water the day he was there. That I agree with but, what I said is not all year and there are many other articles or videos of the water at 78 as well. Again we all differ but, my rams have lived in Canada for over 40 years with great success at 78. I also provided a video in my comments of someone who breeds literally millions of them at 78- 79.

I think these discussion of 78/79 vs 82/83 should of course include the water condition and hardness as well as tds. There is more than just temperature that will impact the longevity of the fish so discussions of this sort can lead to a false impression unless other details are provided.

My TDS target is 200, Tap water 156 and my temps always 78-79.

See below I have provided an article just from today on water temp of the amazon. Fyi - 78.8 conversion is from 26c and we can all agree region temp will vary etc but, this is a general idea of normal water temps in the area. I am of course aware of side rivers and pond temps vary but, this is what the temp of the Amazon is today. Why would anyone keep a fish at thier max normal temp anyway ? Im a big guy and can handle 84 but, much prefer 74 lol.

Article today July 17,2021:

Water temperature in Amazon river (near Manaus) today is 26°C. Based on our historical data over a period of ten years, the temp of the water in Amazon river (near Manaus) on this day was constant and was 26°C. Water temperature in Amazon river (near Manaus) is expected to rise to 27°C in the next 10 days. July average water temperature in Amazon river (near Manaus) is 26.7°C, the minimum temperature is 26°C, and the maximum is 29°C.

Throughout the year, the water temperature in Amazon river (near Manaus) does not rise above 20°C and therefore is not suitable for comfortable swimming. But on some days of January, February, March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November, December, the water temperature warms up to 20°C and above. The average water temperature in Amazon river (near Manaus) in winter reaches 26°C, in spring 27°C, in summer the average temperature rises to 27°C, and in autumn it is 27°C.

 

[LowConductivity]

Read the article and all he says is the water was 82 in 1 foot of water the day he was there. That I agree with but, what I said is not all year and there are many other articles or videos of the water at 78 as well.

Correct, the article refers only to one day. In my conversations years ago with Ivan, he was very adamant, that the Rams of the llanos were found in 81-82* water year round.

 

[BestFishTankGuy]

Interesting TDS is way high (i presume you also have hard water); but ph is way low - lower than most causal owners. I wonder if somehow the low PH is offsetting the hard water or perhaps 400 TDS is a typo and it is 40?

No it’s not a Typo my TDS from tap water is about 350-430
my actual pH is like 7.5 before it goes into the tank

But since I use fluval Stratum it brings down the pH to like 6.5 but with Co2 injection it brings it down to about 6
I live in Los Angeles and the city water here is moderately hard

 

[DuaneV]

82-86 is a stretch. 81/82* year round is not.

Ram Cichlids Mikrogeophagus ramirezi in the Wild - MIKOLJI - RIVER EXPLORER - AUDIOVISUAL ARTIST

Just ask Ivan. He spends more time in the llanos than anyone I can think of that will reply to an email.

Actually, this is incorrect. Mikrogeophagus ramirezi is from the Orinoco River Basin, not the Amazon, which winds through the savannas of Colombia and Venezuela. Since its close to the equator and the river basin is slow moving and exposed to the sun, daytime water temps can hover around 90 or more.

That said, we're talking tank raised fish, not wild caught, yeah? In that case, fish can be acclimated to a much cooler temp than the regularly stated "has to be 82-86" which I hear regurgitated non stop. Ive had pairs breed in community tanks that were 78 and I currently have a breeding pair in what I consider an "optimal" temp of 82.

When kept in cooler water they live much longer but arent nearly as active, in my experience. In warmer water theyre much more fun to watch, but they dont live as long. Ive had GBRs live in 78 for 3.5 years. When I keep them at 82, they usually 2.5-3, max.

Hi all. I am running an experiment keeping German blue rams at 78degrees. I have heard a hardier German Blue Ram has been bred. Basically In 2005 or whatever petsmart German blue rams kept dying by the dozens so they stopped carrying them. They were recently introduced again and are supposedly hardier captive bred German blue rams . Able to tolerate lower temperatures. I picked up two about two weeks ago and added them to my community tank. I didn’t expect much. They are juveniles as well so I certainly didn’t except them to be laying eggs so soon. They haven’t even reached full size , I would say they are the size of a Quarter 25 cents.

Lo and behold they have laid eggs.

Congrats! Since you have a parent hovering over the eggs and apparently fanning them, I think youll have swimmers in a couple days. GBRs breed YOUNG, like 3-5 months old. I currently have a pair guarding fry that hatched 2 days ago. The dad is MUCH more diligent in keeping them protected and keeps mom away too. Mine are about 3 months old.

Sometimes theyll eat the eggs, sometimes the fry, sometimes not. Keeping the fry alive is the trickiest part, and as youve found out, theyre much more hardy than some lead you to believe.

Have you managed to keep any alive? Did some make it? Let us know what happened.

 

[coralbandit]

I like 82-86 and have had pairs spawn for 3+ years when kept at that range .
Some of my lines are from Shahar Danziger[ guy in the video above] and they are fine in the same 82+ .
All my blacks are 82+ derived from Danziger lines .
Lower then 80 seems to reduce their immune systems.
Even with never having disease issue at lower temps I never saw any benefit to keeping any of my rams under 80 ..

 

[Linda1234]

I like 82-86 and have had pairs spawn for 3+ years when kept at that range .
Some of my lines are from Shahar Danziger[ guy in the video above] and they are fine in the same 82+ .
All my blacks are 82+ derived from Danziger lines .
Lower then 80 seems to reduce their immune systems.
Even with never having disease issue at lower temps I never saw any benefit to keeping any of my rams under 80 ..

Can you add another data point - how long do your rams typically live in the 82-86 range ? You mentioned they spawn for 3+ years but do they continue to live a while after they stop spawning ?

 

[coralbandit]

Longest I have had a pair for was just shy of 4 years .
Most last 2-3 years for me .

 

[Linda1234]

Longest I have had a pair for was just shy of 4 years .
Most last 2-3 years for me .

I have one other off topic question - I know you've been breeding rams for years do you have issues with inbreeding or genetic decay over time ?

 

[coralbandit]

I have one other off topic question - I know you've been breeding rams for years do you have issues with inbreeding or genetic decay over time ?

No problems crossing colors or breeding siblings together at all.
Every 3-4 years I add new blood from a reputable source [ like Shahar] to part of my lines and then gradually work them in to most fish as long as nothing is causing any issues ..

 

[DuaneV]

I have one other off topic question - I know you've been breeding rams for years do you have issues with inbreeding or genetic decay over time ?

Fish are one of the animals that can inbreed almost non stop without issue, and actually, inbreeding can be safer when you know the genetics of a brother and sister are good whereas if you introduce a new line you dont know the genetics and could have issues.

 

[Linda1234]

Fish are one of the animals that can inbreed almost non stop without issue, and actually, inbreeding can be safer when you know the genetics of a brother and sister are good whereas if you introduce a new line you dont know the genetics and could have issues.

That is interesting. I've purchased fishes in the past with serious visible defects like missing gill covering or similar (these were not injury). Cockatoo is another fish that is well known to have serious health issues due to breeding. I had assume this was due to generations of inbreeding but perhaps they are defects that form in attempts to get certain colour morph or similar. I have one guppy with a 'bad' gene in which off springs have bent backs. At first I thought it was injury but when i had multiple generation of frys with similar defect....

 

[LowConductivity]

Fish are one of the animals that can inbreed almost non stop without issue, and actually, inbreeding can be safer when you know the genetics of a brother and sister are good whereas if you introduce a new line you dont know the genetics and could have issues.

Can you site a source for this? Most of the peer reviewed stuff I read suggests a pretty fair amount of drift happening @ F1, and a cascade effect in subsequent generations