Extremely low pH / Fish struggling Help!

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My 65 gallon tank that was set up almost 3 months ago has been having a very low pH for about 2 weeks now and I have tried everything to boost it up. The current stock is 1 Juvi gold severum, 1 juvi Pearl Gourami, and 1 African Butterfly Fish. I have almost no clue how it started and no clue how to end it. The current tank pH is 5.8, ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, and Nitrate 0. They are all zeros because the tank completely crashed and all the beneficial bacteria died. We have ammonia spikes almost everyday and have been doing daily water changes. Our tap water is 7.0 and our tank has dragon rocks, neutral river sand, aquarium soil, and a large décor. We have no plants currently because they where decaying from the low pH. We have tried to add Marine sand for calcium, change all the filter media (Canister), add pH buffers, Feed the fish less, Removed the plants and the pH has almost not changed at all. Except when we change the water. When we did a large water change today (50%), the pH went up to 7 but after a few hours it drastically dropped back to 5.8. I know this is extremely bad for the fish and it can be deadly. All the fish are trying to get air and are very stressed out, more then I have ever seen, and I'm guessing they are on there last thread.

I think that the reason for the pH drop is the soil. We where told buy the people we bought it from, that it would keep it at neutral, but obviously that wasn't the case.
I don't know of any solution that would help them ASAP besides letting them be or removing the soil. If I left them alone there would still be ammonia and I don't think I will be able to do a lot of water changes anymore and at the same time dealing with the pH. And it would be very hard to remove the soil without emptying out the tank and putting the fish in a spare 10 gallon for the time being. If anyone has any other ideas, or supporting info for emptying out the tank, It would be extremely helpful. I am very attached to this fish and I really want the best for them, so I'm trying everything. Thank you.
 

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Maybe include a good sized chunk of limestone into the hardscape. That might buffer the water.
 

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Have you tested your kh and gh? One of my tanks has a low kh of 2. From what I've read on here that makes it possible for ph to crash. So far my ph has been holding at 7 but worry ill have a crash like you. I've read people
on here advise others to add crushed corral to the filter wich is supposed to raise the kh. I was going to try that if I can find some corral tomorrow
 
Hey, what is your ammonia level reading each day since the tank crashed? I can't imagine those three fish are creating that much of a bio-load in that decent size of a tank. Also how are you testing the parameters? Maybe bring some water to a LFS for them to test or buy a second api kit just to rule it out?

Adding crushed coral to the filter may help, along with salts to raise PH but I think those are only going to be short term solutions. Messing with it can cause more harm than good. Soil can throw pH, but usually only for a short term issue. Just keep doing water changes and work through it since your tap is at least a bit better.

I do think you might be on to something with the soil being the problem. Ohko stone is likely not the culprit in regards to lowering pH; as well as the river sand. Since the tank crashed already, maybe it is better to put them in a spare tank to remove the soil and test the water without it?
 
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  • #5
My Kh is 0 and my Gh is 25ish. Is there a way to change the Kh? And i will try to obtain limestone and crushed coral but it wont be possible for around 30 hours.

And yea, that's what I thought too. Its been testing around 0.25 ppm which made me wary that It wasn't possible but the weirdest part was we strip tested and water tested it (Api) and there was ammonia but when we went to test it at our LFS It was 0 today. It made no sense to me. And Right now, I am transfering them to the spare and removing the substrate.
 
My Kh is 0 and my Gh is 25ish. Is there a way to change the Kh? And i will try to obtain limestone and crushed coral but it wont be possible for around 30 hours.

And yea, that's what I thought too. Its been testing around 0.25 ppm which made me wary that It wasn't possible but the weirdest part was we strip tested and water tested it (Api) and there was ammonia but when we went to test it at our LFS It was 0 today. It made no sense to me. And Right now, I am transfering them to the spare and removing the substrate.
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You can alter the carbonate hardness by adding limestone.

I think that's the easiest way and should act as a buffer to your pH. BUT I would highly highly suggest trying to get an accurate reading on the kH before trying to "fix" something. If you have Low KH it might be effecting your pH and that's why its dropping. Generally though getting that higher KH should help buffer and keep it more stable.
 

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  • #7
Alright, Thank you. I will be sure to add some tomorrow. And my tank has been 0 kH sinse it was set up. If its helpful to mention, when the tank was cycling for the first 2 weeks and for a while after the severum, the tank was at a stable 6.4 which makes me question the drop even more.
 
My Kh is 0 and my Gh is 25ish. Is there a way to change the Kh? And i will try to obtain limestone and crushed coral but it wont be possible for around 30 hours.
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Raising KH is easy. Initially you can use baking soda or an alkalinity buffer such as Seachem Alkaline Buffer but in the longer term adding some limestone, aragonite, crushed coral or crushed oyster shells will help to keep carbonates in the water without having to add too much else. Try to achieve at least 4dKH (about 70ppm).
 
Hey,

DO NOT RAISE KH, explanation follows in a few minutes! wanted to get this out before you do something that will make everything worse
 

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  • #12
Ok. FYI, I already moved the fish to the back up 10 gallon and I'm replacing the substrate with something neutral in the 65. They look much calmer in the 10 then in the 65 so I will give them a day before moving them back to the bigger tank when its ready.
 
Hey,

okay so I hope I was quick enough, here's the explanation.

Your problem IS indeed the soil. If by aquarium soil you mean those small round balls. (And your KH being at 0 I would bet that's exactly what you have)

Soil is designed to push the KH close to 0 and the pH anywhere between 5.7 and 6.5, depending on the soil.
This works, simply put, by exchange. Soil takes the KH, some organic stuff (I don't want to go into too much detail) and releases whatever it is loaded with. Often that is ammonia, especially ADA has quite a bit of ammonia loaded. A great substrate for plants.

Now here is the thing ... soil is designed to be used with water of a KH up to 1, maximum 2. Most people use RODI water and remineralize it to KH 0.1 - 0.5°dH and GH 4-6°dH. That will make for a soft release of nutrients.
The higher the KH, the quicker the soil will drain. The higher the KH, the more stuff will be released into your water.
You have a GH of 25. That means the KH of your tap water will be around the 20 area. For soil this is HUGE. To put it in a picture, while others use a small chisel to extract a bit of powder from a small stone, you took a sledgehammer. :D
And that is exactly where your ammonia spikes come from! You change water daily. You put new KH in daily. The soil releases the ammonia it is loaded with daily. Spike.


Simply put: Your soil does exactly what it is supposed to do.

Don't raise the KH, that will make things worse. Get rid of the soil, as quick as you can. Or change to RODI-water ... but I would recommend getting rid of the soil.
 
What is the KH of your source water? Can you give us that reading please. It will help with options.

Sounds like you have an acid buffering soil? Do you know what the soil is? These acid soils are for blackwater tanks where you grow bacteria that lives at low pH. You can't fight it.
 
Also I had assumed that the GH of 25 was ppm not degrees, can you confirm that?
 
Solution is most likely very simple: remove the soil, put in gravel (INERT), and retest- parameters should match your tap. If you want a planted tank add root tabs and you’re good to go :) true aquasoil, which is what it sounds like you have, can be more of a pain than a gain.
 
PH 5.8 should not hurt your fishes and ammonia won’t be toxic. However a sudden change from 5.8 to 7 after a water change could be harmful, I agree with Zer0Fame that the easiest solution is to remove the soil. Incidentally I have very soft water with KH 0-1 and have never to my knowledge had a pH crash, it stays pretty constant at 6.6 to 6.8.
 
And….while TClare is correct, be sure to also monitor your ammonia w the new water and the 10g rescue tank. The difference in the bad ammonia(NH3) is pretty notable (in a higher more harmful way)when going from a pH of 5.8 to 7. I also say this bc most bb(beneficial bacteria) don’t do well at 5.8 which means you’ll have to nurse the build up of bb along so as to battle the free ammonia and nitrites that will get going in the new water and the 10g rescue tank water.
 
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  • #19
Thank you all for the information, it helped a lot. The Gh was 25 ppm, the soil I used was Oase scaperline soil. I'm not able to test the water right now, but I will find out the kH of my tap water when I can. We left the 65 cycling over night with river sand and aragonite, and tested it this morning to find a nice ph of 6.5. The 10 gallon was very close to that pH so we moved the fish back into there original take as both tanks where un cycled and I think it would be more logical to have our fish in a 65 un cycled rather then a 10 uncycled. We will be monitoring the fish, pH and ammonia very closly.
 
GH of 25 ppm is very low, so your source water is very soft, about 1.5 degrees GH.

Your KH is likely very low as well.

Are you on a well?
 
Hey,

25ppm? That would most likely be the lowest I have ever seen. But fits with the pH of 6.5
 

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  • #22
A reservoir and wells, yes. Our tap pH is 7. And, our LFS, who has the same water as us, never in my knowledge had any issues with water parameters like I'm having. I just tested my tank and the Tap and here is what came out.
Tapwater:
GH: 0
KH: 40ppm
pH: 7

My Tank:
GH: 0
KH: 0
pH: 6.5

I plan on doing a water change today to remove ammonia.
 
Under 7pH ammonia becomes less toxic to your fish. Still do the water changes yes but get that soil out and let the tank re set itself. You actually have water I would kill for , it’s not far off ro!! I thought mine was soft but wow !!

just a quick note the soils are usually magnetic if you’re struggling to pick stragglers out.
 
OP I have soft well water like you. It is ideal for fish actually. People pay money to get water that is this soft.

Your KH and GH are both about 2 degrees. This is very soft water. Just like my well water.

My well water comes out at pH of 5.6.

What I do is use soda ash to raise the KH. The soda ash will raise the KH and pH up together. The KH buffers the pH so it stays stable in a good zone near neutral. A Typical goal for KH is like 5.

You set the KH where you want and let the pH settle where it does.

For softwater fish I just raise the KH up with soda ash and leave the GH low.

But for my cichlids and snails I add salts to raise the GH up for the hard water tanks.
https://www.amazon.com/Cichlid-Lake-Salt-2-2-lbs/dp/B000255PJY


Your problem was you cycled the tank above pH of 6.0 and then the active acid soil removed all your KH. The pH dropped below 6.0 and the bacteria stopped. This is a hard stop. You would have to recycle the tank at low pH and then you would have a black water tank.
 
the aquarium soil used has depleted the KH, doing what it's supposed to do in order to drop the pH to acidic.
5.8 is fine, 6.5 is fine, ammonia is going to be sitting in a larger particle form called "Ammonium" and it's too big a particle for the fish to absorb, rendering it non-toxic.

Making these drastic water changes and chasing the ammonia is what is stressing the fish by fluctuating the pH, it's not good for them to go from pH 5.8 to pH 7.0, and back to pH 5.8 again.

Nothing wrong with the soil, it's doing what it's supposed to do. if you want to remove the soil, it's also going to shock the fish until they re-acclimate again to the neutral pH. at pH 7 or higher, you WILL need to be more concerned about the ammonia results also until the tank recycles.

it's not so much the tank lost it's cycle as the bacteria just dead stopped in the transition of the pH. and has to also acclimate to the change and then multiply. there is a die off but bacteria is resilient.

Whatever you are doing, if your source water is 0GH, and 40ppm KH, you are going to have to be really careful with water changes, Nitric and Carbonic acids are going to be created and eat away the KH, the soil just speeds it along. 20-25% water change at a time at most, like 1x a week, smaller and more frequent water changes would be even better for stability.

Currently I think chasing this inconsequential ammonia, is causing more stress on the fish than anything else, It's not good to go from pH 5.8 to pH 7 back to pH 5.8 in a couple hours. the fish are on an acclimation rollercoaster ride when you do that.

Just one persons opinion. ammonia on your test isn't ALWAYS toxic to the fish.
 
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  • #26
Yea, we noticed that the soil was magnetic when we dropped a magnetic algae scraper into the tank lol.
And I'm re-cycling it without the soil right now. Its day 3. The fish are already acclimated to the tank. Do you know if the KH Stays low if it will mess with my pH again or was I just unlucky? Basically do I have to raise the KH or is it just an option? I'm not lazy to do it but I just want to know exactly what's going on.

And it wont be going from 5.8-7.0 anymore as the pH is now 6.5 and it only changes that much in a 50% water change that I did 3 days ago while there was still soil in the tank, and before I stated this thread. I don't plan on doing those huge water changes anymore due to what you said.
 
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  • #29
I could acquire those things but don't tannins lower the pH? That would be the one thing I would not like happening right now.
And thank you! I'm trying my best.
 
Do you know if the KH Stays low if it will mess with my pH again or was I just unlucky? Basically do I have to raise the KH or is it just an option? I'm not lazy to do it but I just want to know exactly what's going on.
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I don't think that raising the KH is immediately urgent. Now that you've removed the soil the water should retain some of its buffering capacity. Still, a KH of 40ppm is quite low so keep an eye on your pH. Best if it doesn't drop below 6.5 while cycling.
 
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  • #31
My tank water is 0 KH? Its my tap water that is 40ppm.
 

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My tank water is 0 KH? Its my tap water that is 40ppm.
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Ok. Without the soil the tank water KH should rise a little with each water change but it wouldn't hurt to add some crushed coral or limestone. Also your fish will need some minerals in the long term and so will any plants if you decide to add some back. A GH of 0 is not ideal other than for blackwater species.
 
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  • #33
Alright. I will buy some limestone soon. If you don't mind me asking, what minerals should I use to buffer the GH?
 
Your KH will buffer your pH.

If you don’t want to monitor your KH as frequently bc it’s so low (2), you can gradually get it to 4or 5 just to be safe. Having a KH so close to 0 is risky imho. I even kept my adult Discus at 4-5 KH w a low (but not 0) GH as well.
 
Hey,

I could acquire those things but don't tannins lower the pH?
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Only in huge amounts. :)
For a 65G I would add 5-6 normal sized catappa leaves and 3-4 big or 5-6 small alder cones. Your mileage may vary as those are natural products, basically add enough to give the water a slight yellowish tint.
I usually put them in a heat resistant bowl, cook some water and let it cool to around 80°C/176F, pour the water over the leaves and cones, let it sit until cooled down and then dump everything including the water into the tank.
 
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  • #36
Would this be something I have to do every so often or a one and done thing?
Sorry for asking so many questions, I just don't want to make anymore mistakes.:D
 
Alright. I will buy some limestone soon. If you don't mind me asking, what minerals should I use to buffer the GH?
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Limestone or crushed coral will work slowly to raise pH, KH & GH. To raise just the GH just buy a branded GH booster. They are not expensive. They contain calcium and magnesium and sometimes potassium salts.

Cycling is also more reliable with some mineral content in your water.
 
Hey,

Would this be something I have to do every so often or a one and done thing?
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Every so often. :D
The leaves will wither, the cones can be removed once they gave all their tannins to the water. Rule of thumb is every 2-4 weeks.
 
I have very soft water, GH 1-2, KH 0-1. I keep soft water fish and have never tried to adjust the KH. Three of my four tanks have a fair amount of leaf litter, the other doesn’t but does have driftwood. I have not found the leaves or wood to change the pH significantly despite the low KH.
 
Here is what I would do: yeet crushed coral into the tank ( after its been rinsed) and wait for results if it helped but still have low ph then add more its not like godzilla will show up if you get some crushed coral... wait a second WHAT IS THAT HUGE LIZARD RUNNNN!!!!
 

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OP your cycle stalled because your carbonates ran out. The cycle needs carbonates.

You can add carbonates directly by adding soda ash or baking soda. Simple.

When folks have 0 KH aquariums what is happening is that the carbonates are coming from carbon dioxide in the water. In mature tanks, the decay of leaves and dead plants and algae makes carbon dioxide which makes carbonates. The cycle uses it up as fast as it is made so there is none in the water.

There is no problem with adding a little soda ash or baking soda to boost the KH up a bit.

Since you have very low KH like I do you will find that the crushed coral or limestone just is not enough and wont work. It does not dissolve fast enough. You will need to dissolve some carbonates into the water directly. In time as the tank matures and you get soil made from decayed plants and algae which will release carbon dioxide into the water too. Good aeration also injects C02 into the water and is enough to keep the cycle going in most tanks.
 
Crushed coral, is a calcium and carbonate source. When acids in the water work on it, some of it dissolves and the carbonates raise the KH keeping it from depleting while the calcium goes to the GH column.

Again though, ammonia isn't problematic at a low pH as it's all bound as ammonium whether it takes 30 days to cycle or 3-6 months with the pH being low, the ammonia isn't going to have an effect on the fish.

With no KH the problems would occur with plants and the lights on and off and the change of the plants from photosynthesis to respiration the pH would shift more drastically with a zero KH. In Blackwater tanks with leaf litter the tannins and humric substances would buffer the pH and keep it stable at least that's how I think it works.

You can cycle at low pH, it just takes longer.
Ammonium is non-toxic to fish, it's too large a molecule to penetrate the fish and be absorbed.
The large pH swings is what's causing the fish distress.
 
The large pH swings is what's causing the fish distress.
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I'm not sure, people like myself with CO2 injected tanks can experience up to one point pH drops on a daily basis with no apparent effect on livestock.

Perhaps the distress is related to the fact that the pH went as low as 5.8? The pH doesn't usually go that low even CO2 injected tanks.
 
I'm not sure, people like myself with CO2 injected tanks can experience up to one point pH drops on a daily basis with no apparent effect on livestock.

Perhaps the distress is related to the fact that the pH went as low as 5.8? The pH doesn't usually go that low even CO2 injected tanks.
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Yeah, I mean like there's " within range" then there's extreme short term swings. I think, like in a CO2 tank, it becomes the usual fluctuation on a day to day, and as long as it's only the pH changing, no other parameter changing, even more sensitive animals like shrimp can roll with it without a problem.

But if it's like a Water change, 50%+, GH and KH change, pH changes, maybe a temperature change also. then that soil sends the pH on the rollercoaster ride short term. I don't think it's solely the pH, but in combination with other parameters that causes the distress.
 
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  • #46
Yea the pH thing makes sense because before making this thread, 4 of my other fish died 1-2 days after getting them. If the ammonia is non-toxic then it had to be the pH. We didn't do a water change while they where in for minimal stress. (This was a week ago.)
I just tested the water of my tank today and the KH Of my tank went up to 30ppm without any water changes so I'm going to give it a little more time before starting to mess with it.
whether it takes 30 days to cycle or 3-6 months with the pH being low
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It can take half a year for my aquarium to cycle :eek:? Is it because the bacteria slows down at a low pH? I know it could take 30 days and that its going to take more time then at a 7.0 pH but I never knew it could take 3-6 months. When I first cycled the tank I cycled it at 6.4 and it finished at the 2 week mark (Tested it our self and got it checked just to make sure by our LFS and they said we where good to go.) Is there another reason why it will go so slow this time?
 
OP since you are on well water like mine, one other thing we have with our well water is low dissolved oxygen.

Can you recall if you changed most of the water in the tank before the fish started gasping?

That is what happens with my water. I have 3 ppm dissolved oxygen in my well water. I think you probably do too. This is actually what stresses the fish out. It has nothing to do with the pH actually.

If I change most of the water in a tank with my well water the fish will gasp for air.

So I put the water in barrels and aerate it first to make it fish ready. 8 ppm dissolved oxygen is what fish want to be happy.
 
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  • #48
I never knew that. Thanks for the info. The only reason I believed it was the pH is that they seemed fine during the water change and after when it went up to 7.0 from 5.8, but they started gasping the next day when it dropped all the way back down to 5.8.
I haven't changed the water yet since I put them back in the tank with new substrate as I'm letting everything be so they can relax. I do plan on changing it in 1-2 days though. Also, I have 3 other tanks which all get filled back up with the same water and none of them gasp for air after a water change.
 
I just tested the water of my tank today and the KH Of my tank went up to 30ppm without any water changes
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Because you took the soil out and did water changes before hand. More new water to buffer but then you removed the buffer.
It can take half a year for my aquarium to cycle :eek:? Is it because the bacteria slows down at a low pH? I know it could take 30 days and that its going to take more time then at a 7.0 pH but I never knew it could take 3-6 months.?
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Yes and no. It can take 6 months for your tank to be fully ready to manage an ammonia source at low pH. They are a completely different bacteria that colonise your tank and they grow more slowly than the ‘standard’ bacteria. It’s no less effective , it just grows much slower. Usually these tanks are accompanied by leaf litter , tannins and humic acids which take over the kh as a buffer. This is obviously much more extreme to your conditions but you do have soft water naturally , I don’t think you shouldnt fight it. Embrace it !! Add the leaves ( you can collect naturally for free!) monitor closely whilst it establishes and stop trying to chase the “ideal” pH. Obviously it wouldn’t be open to keeping higher loving pH fish .. have you read the blackwater basics info on here ?

Blackwater: Basics and FAQ
 

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