Electric Blue Ram Breeding Advice

[AquaticJ]

Cory a video of the Ram farm in Israel , it was quite a sight to see.

 

[DeniseF]

Cory posted a video of the Ram farm in Israel in the group Denise and I moderate, it was quite a sight to see.

When was that Jake? I must have missed it: Edit: Found it and looking now

 

[Cale24]

Nice, I'm looking forward to the full video appearing on his channel. The Angel clip was awesome as well!

 

[DeniseF]

Well, just had my first tank blow out! One of my smaller breeding tanks. Of course, I bought them all as used tanks, but they had been running fine for weeks now. I'm not sure if it was heating the water that caused the problem, but anyway, I came into the room smelling of plastic burning and looked up! Thankfully due to the two part design the fish were safe in the front part of the tank which we re-sealed due to putting a tiled floor in. We can't see where the leak is, so are going to take it outside tomorrow and fill it up to see if we can work out where its leaking and re-seal it.

 

[coralbandit]

Hopefully that is just a one time /tank thing ..

 

[DeniseF]

Hopefully that is just a one time /tank thing ..

yes definitely! Last thing I need is to come down to a line of blown tanks! Looking at it though someone has re-sealed it already.. I expect they did half a job!!!

 

[DeniseF]

Edit: We tested the tank this morning and the seals are fine. What I think happened is that I have a large sponge filter in there, this must have gotten knocked when I was cleaning the tank and the outlet just high enough to take the water out of the tank!

 

[DeniseF]

So, update on my new fish room. I've had to do a bit of musical fish, putting pairs in together that didnt work and some fish just freaked out after being in such a big group so I had to pick bolder ones that could cope being in a tank of "two". One pair I had to put in some fake plants as they were just hiding all the time and almost as soon as I did that, they were out and about swimming.

I will do a video of the new fish room soon I promise.

My oldest GBR male with his new female spawned within days of being in the new setup, but the female ate the eggs. I'm going to give them a bit of time though to see if they can get it together and raise the fry. I now have two additional spawns, but in typical Ram fashion they both laid their eggs on the newly tiled tank base - so clearly the slate coloured tiles did their job. So, there is presently 1 EBR and 1 GBR spawn.. it remains to see if they will eat them, but I've decided to see how it goes at least for the first time.

 

[DeniseF]

So, another spawn last night, my electric blue/GBR pair. All of the pairs that have spawned bar my original GBR pair. spawned on the slate floor and not the plant pot tray! Typical. the EBR pair eggs have a lot of white, but today they have moved the viable eggs to the pot/tray so that's a good sign. I doubt it will be a large lot of fry but it will be enough for them to learn on without losing control.

The fish seem to be spawning either at night or early morning, I don't have lights on those tanks but I do have a blue led strip that I've threaded around the breeding trays.. it doesn't do much during the day, but at night it provides a beautiful moonlight effect, I think that's really helped get them in the mood

 

[Cale24]

Look forward to seeing the latest progress and good to hear they're all still spawning away.
What tds do you keep your breeding tanks at - 80? Our tap water here has a crazy low TDS of 40! Down from the usual 70, which was already pretty low. General hardness down 1 degree. BUT, our tap PH shot up from the usual 7.6 to 9!
And all inside a week. Then down to 7.5 then back up to 8.5 - all over the place and our local water department are vague and defensive when I called and asked was going on. They say they can legally keep it at a max of 9.7 (hand soap is 10). Ridiculous for this region.

Noticed my previously healthy rams in my community tank looking unhappy and tilted down at 45 degree angles, near motionless, a few hours after a 50% water change. Tested tank PH out of confusion and it was at 7.6 instead of the 6.3 I've kept it at for the last couple years. Then tested tap and worked out what had happened. I mix 5.5 PH spring water from a nearby source with treated tap usually.
So, clearly shock. Sadly lost one but the other couple in the tank have pulled through and are eating again after 3 days of unhappiness. I have a single Bolivian in there too and she didn't seem to even notice - tougher indeed.

More or less relieved. I mention it out of interest as I guess it IS possible for sensitive rams to ride out a more than 10 x more alkaline PH increase.
Some guy on another forum said our municipality gasses out the water supply pipes from time to time to eradicate sediment build up. Can't say for sure if that's true but am now having to test tap PH more frequently.

 

[DeniseF]

Look forward to seeing the latest progress and good to hear they're all still spawning away.
What tds do you keep your breeding tanks at - 80? Our tap water here has a crazy low TDS of 40! Down from the usual 70, which was already pretty low. General hardness down 1 degree. BUT, our tap PH shot up from the usual 7.6 to 9!
And all inside a week. Then down to 7.5 then back up to 8.5 - all over the place and our local water department are vague and defensive when I called and asked was going on. They say they can legally keep it at a max of 9.7 (hand soap is 10). Ridiculous for this region.

Noticed my previously healthy rams in my community tank looking unhappy and tilted down at 45 degree angles, near motionless, a few hours after a 50% water change. Tested tank PH out of confusion and it was at 7.6 instead of the 6.3 I've kept it at for the last couple years. Then tested tap and worked out what had happened. I mix 5.5 PH spring water from a nearby source with treated tap usually.
So, clearly shock. Sadly lost one but the other couple in the tank have pulled through and are eating again after 3 days of unhappiness. I have a single Bolivian in there too and she didn't seem to even notice - tougher indeed.

More or less relieved. I mention it out of interest as I guess it IS possible for sensitive rams to ride out a more than 10 x more alkaline PH increase.
Some guy on another forum said our municipality gasses out the water supply pipes from time to time to eradicate sediment build up. Can't say for sure if that's true but am now having to test tap PH more frequently.

My tap TDS is 225, PH 7.6 I haven't tested my GH/KH for a while but its pretty low. I have all my breeding tanks at TDS 100, I just mix it with RO, our tap water though is pretty consistent so I don't have the same worries of fluctuations as you do. Sorry to hear all your woes with the water though, that sucks!
Well my GBR pair now have wrigglers and the EBR pair did until lights out..but I just checked and unless they have moved the wrigglers they must have been eaten! Seems like GBR are much better parents overall! I'f I get a really big EBR spawn I will remove them, but this was only a small 1st spawn so I didnt mind giving them a chance.. thing is from my point of view its the same work if I raise 10 or 200!

 

[Cale24]

My tap TDS is 225, PH 7.6 I haven't tested my GH/KH for a while but its pretty low. I have all my breeding tanks at TDS 100, I just mix it with RO, our tap water though is pretty consistent so I don't have the same worries of fluctuations as you do. Sorry to hear all your woes with the water though, that sucks!
Well my GBR pair now have wrigglers and the EBR pair did until lights out..but I just checked and unless they have moved the wrigglers they must have been eaten! Seems like GBR are much better parents overall! I'f I get a really big EBR spawn I will remove them, but this was only a small 1st spawn so I didnt mind giving them a chance.. thing is from my point of view its the same work if I raise 10 or 200!

Ah ok, I try keep mine around 80. I can't really understand how our tap has such low hardness (namely KH) while having a high PH. Shouldn't have dropped biology back in the day I guess. Anyway, my first instance of PH/ osmotic shock. Some say its a change in hardness that is the concern but Kh/ Gh didn't fluctuate too much on testing.

Looking forward to some pics or video of the new fishroom setup!
Not sure if you saw the recent video with the Danzinger farm/ rams? Mostly just a talk through of pics so I'm keen to see the actual video footage next. Still cool to see - apparently even they still get very low counts of true black/ Dark Knights from spawns.

 

[DeniseF]

My EBR/GBR pair ate their eggs at lights out as well. I definitely think it will be easier to remove the eggs, my GBR Pair are promising, the female is guarding the wrigglers which is pretty rare from my view, having it always been the male before with the female eating them. She doesn't have many though as most went white.. I've filled up all my smaller tanks now with pairs, but I keep seeing others I like in my main tank. I also have some really dark rams that aren't so attractive at the moment being quite small, but I'm pretty interested to have a play around and see if they are paired, what the fry will look like. Once my bigger tanks are cycled I will put a pair or two in and see what happens.

 

[Cale24]

My EBR/GBR pair ate their eggs at lights out as well. I definitely think it will be easier to remove the eggs, my GBR Pair are promising, the female is guarding the wrigglers which is pretty rare from my view, having it always been the male before with the female eating them. She doesn't have many though as most went white.. I've filled up all my smaller tanks now with pairs, but I keep seeing others I like in my main tank. I also have some really dark rams that aren't so attractive at the moment being quite small, but I'm pretty interested to have a play around and see if they are paired, what the fry will look like. Once my bigger tanks are cycled I will put a pair or two in and see what happens.

Do black rams that show partial colour in their bodies darken further as they age? I only have a pair at 4.5 months so am unsure. That said they are very dark in general, just wondering.

 

[coralbandit]

I think by 4 months they are representing their grown appearance pretty close.
I know for fact my darkest rams were clear as bell to notice from others at 3 months . Before 3 months some darkening may still be taken place.
Over all a fish may continue to darken up IME but if it has Color other then black those colors with intensify also instead of fade away .

 

[Cale24]

I think by 4 months they are representing their grown appearance pretty close.
I know for fact my darkest rams were clear as bell to notice from others at 3 months . Before 3 months some darkening may still be taken place.
Over all a fish may continue to darken up IME but if it has Color other then black those colors with intensify also instead of fade away .

Ah ok, kinda figured as much I suppose - the pair I have are plenty dark but in slightly different ways with the male having a subtle colour sheen along his belly area while the female is largely black with some high contrast speckling of colour here and there.

Not sure if this video which features the Danzinger 'source' farm has been posted elsewhere but was interesting to see even they have small percentages of spawns being truly black:


Cool video in general but their actual video footage will apparently appear in a later YouTube video- for now its just s but cool to see nonetheless.

 

[Cale24]

To follow up, the video post at last:

Pretty awesome!

 

[coralbandit]

That is awesome . Shahar rocks and I don't feel like such a fish hoarder anymore !

 

[DeniseF]

haha I've watched that twice now.. wow something to aI'm for huh! What is amazing is that its all done in the desert!

 

[Thedudeiam94]

Those rams though! coralbandit

 

[coralbandit]

Those rams though! coralbandit

And that is why I drove to NJ on a moments notice when Rich told me DiscusMadness had those blacks over 1 1/2 years ago ! It was my first trip there and I am heading back this month hopefully for a minI FL meet up ..They have many of Shahars fish including some of his amazing discus ...Some day maybe ?
I have a nice selection of Shahars fish and actually talked water with him back when I first got my blacks ..
The Albino Dantumns are a real challenge that paid big for me . I still have one breeding pair and am hoping for a pair from the silver Dantumns soon ..
Part of breeding quality fish is starting the best quality fish you can get ..

 

[Cale24]

Was interesting to see they keep their water a couple degrees cooler than is usually advised? Also, their using Tetra food with such conviction? Ha, makes me glad I co-incidentally use their 'Pro Colour' flakes as a staple for my fish (amongst other stuff) although I'm sure there are loads of similarly good dry foods. I was also reminded of UV sterilzation - perhaps a good investment for a quarantine setup.
As to the black rams - I wonder if they'll ever get the spawn percentages (that are dark) to a high percentage?

Anyway, awesome setups, would love to visit myself.
coralbandit - what water parameters are they raising their rams in, out of interest? I imagine a lot of RO in the mix given the water in that region is very hard.

 

[coralbandit]

When I spoke to Shahar he said he did his water like me and that his water was like mine .
He used conductivity where I used TDS but basically he said his source water was 7.6 pH / 3 KH / 9 GH with a conductivity reading of 200 which is like my 7.6 / 2-3 / 9 with 350 TDS.
He said he cuts his source to around 60-75 Siemens [ 100 TDS ] with ro for breeding and switches his fry over around 2 months old to his tap .

 

[Cale24]

We now have another source of black rams locally, in addition to Marco's, that have come from Europe somewhere I'm told. Bought a pretty nice female just to add to my genetics pool. It's in my black-backed community tank, with black substrate. So, it's basically invisible. I was reminded of what you said coralbandit - unless the setup has a contrasting colour, they just disappear and definitely lose some of their appeal. My breeding pair are in a clear back tank, have some colour, and look awesome, so the setup really can make or break the appeal I think.
It's a bit smaller at 4 months than the pair I got which leads me to believe the breeder is still a couple steps behind in raising them and strengthening their line. Will see how long she lasts (hopefully years) but so far so good.

 

[DeniseF]

Well I must have some happy fish, there are spawns everywhere! Only one of them EBR though! So far I have one parent raising and another I am hopeful about. 2 More are in community tanks so I am not sure how they will fare and many eggs have gone white there because the water isn't set for breeding. The EBR Spawn is huge, but typical they have not laid on anything that can be removed..

 

[DeniseF]

So, came down this morning to find that one of the community tank spawns has been eaten - I think they were all white anyway. The other one has a big central patch that has gone mouldy but there are surprisingly a few that were separate from the main bunch that are fertilised.. so just for the heck of it I tested the PH 8.2 and the TDS shows 246 ! Havent tested GH or KH but my water can't be that hard after all!

Edit: Changing water today in the new community tanks (3 pairs in each) and found even more GBR fry, wrigglers looking like maybe a day of free swimming. They are literally popping out everywhere.

Plus the first pair who had been parenting their fry had spawned.. I didnt realise but noticed the female pecking at her fry and looking like the last one that did that so I got another tank ready to move the fry. It was only when I took the tank decorations out I noticed. I've successfully removed all the original fry and put the pair back in.. this spawn is much, much bigger though than the last.

I'm really nervous about the EBR though, since none of mine successfully parented.. I can't take the eggs out because they laid on the tiled base.. I may try once they are wrigglers as there are literally hundreds of them! But at the moment they are stuck to the floor and I would most likely damage them if I tried.

I do wonder though if this parenting thing is something to do with the genes, because all of my GBR parents, parent raised these fry... OK so that is a theory.. but so far all of the fry that are now grown up and spawning are raising them

 

[angelcraze]

My EBR pairs didn't raise their spawns. It was only type I tried to breed. I only had success hatching the eggs in Methylene Blue and raising them artificially. And my success was limited at that! My TDS was only 100 but the eggs still grew fungus. Some hatched though. It just wasn't the same as hatching angelfish scalare eggs.

 

[coralbandit]

Eggs hatched in 246 ?
you may not need to cut water as your generations progress.
Seems more and more of mine spawn in my tap while in grow out tanks .
I still switch them but have thought more about what water to use for the blacks .
So many say hard water and I have seen several spawns that hatched at 350 + TDS ..

 

[DeniseF]

Eggs hatched in 246 ?
you may not need to cut water as your generations progress.
Seems more and more of mine spawn in my tap while in grow out tanks .
I still switch them but have thought more about what water to use for the blacks .
So many say hard water and I have seen several spawns that hatched at 350 + TDS ..

Its the GBR that are doing that. Every single GBR has paired up in the communal tanks, and every single one has had a viable spawn. I checked again yesterday and they are at least 246 if not more. That was in 100% tap as well. I was just about to conclude that the EBR must need different water and was in the middle of changing all the tank water and setting up one EBR tank with RO and as I was syphoning the floor, an EBR male shot out of a cannon (yes I really do have a cannon ornament in one tank) on close inspection they had laid eggs in the cannon!

So following on from that I decide to try and move what I thought were eggs and the pair into one tank and a GBR Pair out that had spawned and eaten the eggs. I pick the Cannon out and put it in a bucket and my daughter says there are no eggs stuck to the inside of the cannon, we look down and the bottom of the bucket has wrigglers moving in it! So change of plan, we syphon the rest of the tank floor for any more wrigglers that had fallen out - and after unsuccessfully trying to then identify the parents in all the pandemonium - I set one of my fry trays up for them.

Having had the luxury though of parented spawns for a while though, I'd forgotten how much extra work hand raising them!.

I've just spent the last few hours painstakingly separating the wrigglers from lint and debris from the tank floor and all are looking lively! So that blows that theory!

I'm going to get a bit more scientific and start measuring all the tank temps/TDS - I can't check all the chemical levels daily but I will do a full set on noticing spawns from now on.. I am determined to see any connections.

I do have one EBR pair that also have wrigglers and I had toyed with the idea of putting these in with them, but they are only second time spawners and although they are caring for the wrigglers this time, I've already had to rescue 3 that the mum put on the filter sponge - not a good place for them considering the fact that everything gets sucked into it!

I'm trying to get my computer to recognise my iphone but its not playing ball, so I can't upload any video - not sure what is going on with the pics on here but I couldnt see bizaliz3 pics at all. Once I get it sorted I will upload some for you to see.

 

[DeniseF]

So, interesting update! In one of my GBR tanks, all three pairs have spawns. One is 48 hours ahead, but the other two look to go to wrigglers today. So far, in all of my community tanks every spawn has been parented successfully until free swimming, until the fry start really free swimming and then the parents lose control of them and either end up eating them, themselves or they get eaten.

What will happen when all 3 have free swimming fry.. will the same thing happen? Or will they just adopt whichever fry swim nearest to them and not kill any? Or will the parents fight each other tooth and nail for control of the entire brood? I will report on what happens.

 

[Cale24]

Wow, I'm amazed they can hatch at such high TDS. Even more strange that different colour varieties could prefer different water?
I would guess strong fish that are accustomed to a certain range for a period of time could acclimatize and 'find a way' so to speak.

I tend to keep mine at 100 TDS regardless in my breeding tank as its early days for me trying. My black pair, still less than 5 months old I think, have managed day 4 of free swimming fry with them on their first try which I'm quite surprised about? Both have been pretty good parents. The numbers have dropped a bit from an initial small spawn of maybe 30-40 to around 20-30 survivors.
My community is usually around 120 - 150 TDS but for whatever reason the several rams in it have not spawned in quite some time, even with a confirmed pair - male seems game, but not the female. No idea why - levels are all good and it is quite lush and not too crowded.

Look forward to seeing some pics and video of the fish room Denise

 

[DeniseF]

Wow, I'm amazed they can hatch at such high TDS. Even more strange that different colour varieties could prefer different water?
I would guess strong fish that are accustomed to a certain range for a period of time could acclimatize and 'find a way' so to speak.

I tend to keep mine at 100 TDS regardless in my breeding tank as its early days for me trying. My black pair, still less than 5 months old I think, have managed day 4 of free swimming fry with them on their first try which I'm quite surprised about? Both have been pretty good parents. The numbers have dropped a bit from an initial small spawn of maybe 30-40 to around 20-30 survivors.
My community is usually around 120 - 150 TDS but for whatever reason the several rams in it have not spawned in quite some time, even with a confirmed pair - male seems game, but not the female. No idea why - levels are all good and it is quite lush and not too crowded.

Look forward to seeing some pics and video of the fish room Denise

When I first started (seems ages ago now lol) my EBR pair had several spawns 8 days apart, then nothing for months.. they did start up again but I never got them breeding viable eggs again. That pair are HUGE now and I would love them to spawn.. just for a laugh I set them up an area today in my big community tank.. that's at 27-28 degrees and tap water.. who knows eh! Not saying yours will follow that plan, but what I mean to say is sometimes I think they will take a break.

Today I found another EBR spawn in my community tank. I'm thinking that all my efforts getting the RO tanks going may be wasted effort lol! I do have one pair parenting at the moment, but its early days. I've had pairs spawn, but where I've had a situation with one particularly dominant fish of a pair, I've swapped out the weaker one for a different fish. I've got one male that is so thin because he hid and hasnt eaten since the female spawned as the female went after him.. to me that's no good for breeding as I think he needs to be more dominant.

I am going to work towards getting some strong pairs that will parent. Its quite exciting!

Something funny to report... I have been busy fishing out Molly fry from my main tank as my two female mollies are like baby making machines! Anyway, yesterday I fed my main tank and suddenly all these Molly babies popped out of the wood, plants and seemingly every crevice. I did try catching them but they were so fast I gave up! I've been watching my EBR pair and noticed them spending a lot of time "still as the night" around where the fry were.. obviously they were trying to catch themselves tea! I don't think they have had so much luck though because the Molly fry get really near to them and they don't even try to go for them. Its unbelievable.. these fry are small and yet so fast that nothing can catch them..

 

[DeniseF]

Update: Community EBR eggs are gone - so shame I can't tell if they would have been viable or not! TDS 249! Have a Breeder Tank with new eggs, TDS 73.

 

[DeniseF]

Just bought myself a domain name for my fish... guess what it is drumrolls......

Ram.Fish

yes you can in fact get a domain name with the ending .fish!! lol

 

[coralbandit]

Web page has been on my mind lately also ..
Nice name !
Your going to get lots of hits from people who don't even know of you ..NICE !

 

[DeniseF]

Web page has been on my mind lately also ..
Nice name !
Your going to get lots of hits from people who don't even know of you ..NICE !

Hey you could do coralbandit.fish

If you need any help with setting up a wordpress site I am happy to do this, you've been a great help to me with the rams, its the least I can do

 

[DeniseF]

Ok, so here is the fish room

Fish Room View 2

• DeniseF
• Jun 25, 2019

Fish Room view 1

• DeniseF
• Jun 25, 2019

You can see here the tiled floor in lieu of a substrate. Most of the pairs have spawned on the tiles which has made taking eggs difficult..

Community Tank GBR Wrigglers

• DeniseF
• Jun 25, 2019

EBR Spawn in new Fish Room 21/6

• DeniseF
• Jun 25, 2019

These are now wrigglers and being parented by both fry.. fingers crossed for them when they go...

 

[DeniseF]

And here is a video of the 3 GBR pairs that have spawned

 

[Cale24]

Looks nice and neat! I can imagine the tiles appealing as laying surfaces to some of the rams like you say. You could perhaps put a shallow layer of something like a plastic grid over them, and under the actual pot lids, to encourage they lay on the right surface?
Just thinking out loud.
I expect fireworks once those three spawns hatch in the same tank! Maybe they'll end up stealing one another's fry and taking them 'home'.
Time will tell!

 

[DeniseF]

So my EBR Pair got to day 1 Free swimming then ate the fry, that's two separate pairs that did the same. I do have a blue LED Strip that provides some moonlight but I think as there aren't that many, they un-group when it goes dark and then the parents see them as fair game and not their babies. I've had GBR pairs do that as well, but on the whole all of those pairs seem more natural parents.

The 3 pair communal tank is just going free swimming now.. as I expected the fry are just being collected up by whichever parent is near and is being added to their own pile. I am interested to see how it works and have a lot of GBR fry on the go anyway, but I don't want the parents damaged, so if ructions start with the parents I will syphon all the fry out and put them in another tank. We will see though, for now I think the fry are safe.

There is another load of wrigglers in one of the other communal tanks (GBR again) so I don't think its a coincidence that the TDS of 246 range is good for them for breeding. One other thing I have noticed (which drives me nuts but I have to resist cleaning) is that the dirtier the tank floor is, the more likely there are to be spawns that make it to free swimming.

I do wonder with the GBR being better parents is because I have let them make mistakes and not taken the fry, whereas with the Electrics most of the time I've taken them. I really want to give them a go, so I think if I see a big spawn I may take some of the eggs (well wrigglers more likely since the eggs are stuck to the floor) and leave them a few to practice. I know coralbandit said that you had lots of parented fry and wondered if any of those were Electrics and if you had any theories on that.

 

[coralbandit]

I just added one of my bonded pair of EBR that had fry in their tank to my new discus tank with 3 other pairs of rams ..A sort of community ram tank ?
At this point I almost see no difference in the color variation and parenting skills .
I would say I have more success with GBR but I have had them longer and have always had more of them ?
When you proportion things out they seem pretty even ..I have a couple blacks even raising fry ?

 

[DeniseF]

I just added one of my bonded pair of EBR that had fry in their tank to my new discus tank with 3 other pairs of rams ..A sort of community ram tank ?
At this point I almost see no difference in the color variation and parenting skills .
I would say I have more success with GBR but I have had them longer and have always had more of them ?
When you proportion things out they seem pretty even ..I have a couple blacks even raising fry ?

I probably just have to give them a few more goes to get it right then.. I think its defo something to do with the numbers, even the GBR seem to be worse at parenting with smaller spawns.. the bigger the spawn from what I've seen the more likely they are to not eat them. I don't think I've gotten the water right though with the blues.. lots of white eggs not getting fertilized in the individual tanks.. but weird that in the communal high TDS they are fertilized. I think I might put a couple of my EBR breeder tanks that aren't spawning on my tap and see where it goes.
Wow you got Discus though, Brianna (my daughter) and I often drool over the discus at the stores, maybe one day.. just need to stop these mollies from pumping out babies. I should have never told mum to get them because they ended up in my tank and here I am getting over run with them and the babies too fast for any of the big fish to get! lol Much rather have discus haha!

 

[coralbandit]

There is another load of wrigglers in one of the other communal tanks (GBR again) so I don't think its a coincidence that the TDS of 246 range is good for them for breeding. One other thing I have noticed (which drives me nuts but I have to resist cleaning) is that the dirtier the tank floor is, the more likely there are to be spawns that make it to free swimming.
.

I have tanks that 'look' dirty with what I assume are diatoms on the bottom[brown] and it never seems to phase pairs or grow outs .
Since I haven't painted any of my tanks I sometimes think the fish are more comfortable before I clean the bottom ?
I have pairs in their own tanks ,so no real distractions that will lay whole batches of white eggs when my TDS is only 150 and others that have no issue with higher TDS .
I honestly think it is the fish in many cases not the water .I will note white eggs and 150TDS and rectify the tank and the next set are white also..I think this happens when one of the pair is not at peak condition and if not paired might just be on break ?
I know the male GBR [ from 2017] I just added to the discus tank just found new interest in his girl and is chasing everyone today !
Sometimes just moving fish to new tank changes them [for good or bad ?] .
I ended up with discus because of too much store credit and bad influences on this site !

Yea I am blaming the rams and others on this very forum for the discus and sticking to it !

 

[Cale24]

I probably just have to give them a few more goes to get it right then.. I think its defo something to do with the numbers, even the GBR seem to be worse at parenting with smaller spawns.. the bigger the spawn from what I've seen the more likely they are to not eat them. I don't think I've gotten the water right though with the blues.. lots of white eggs not getting fertilized in the individual tanks.. but weird that in the communal high TDS they are fertilized. I think I might put a couple of my EBR breeder tanks that aren't spawning on my tap and see where it goes.
Wow you got Discus though, Brianna (my daughter) and I often drool over the discus at the stores, maybe one day.. just need to stop these mollies from pumping out babies. I should have never told mum to get them because they ended up in my tank and here I am getting over run with them and the babies too fast for any of the big fish to get! lol Much rather have discus haha!

I was wondering that re spawn size. When the small surviving spawn of +-15 on day 6 from my black pair dispersed, eating and swimming well, come evening time (using natural light only on my breeder tank) when it was time to collect them up - and there not being a defined group - the female just gargled them too long as she went back and forth trying to find one, eventually swallowing them.
This morning there were only 6 left and I took them out, especially given the female looks ready to lay again.
Still quite impressed they made it to day 6 on their first attempt (minus the initial eggs that were laid when I got them into the tank, subsequently eaten). I wonder how much of it is down to the light, and how much is down to the fact that this pair has had minimal handling and moving around in their lifetime? Most say that shouldn't affect them, but they have just been a solid, chilled pair from day 1.

Interesting again re TDS and spawning as coralbandit says. I also would love to have a crack at Discus oneday, but need adequate space, time and money, etc. For now rams keep me occupied and amused!
Speaking of TDS, I remember reading on Marco's thread on another forum that in some native water places for rams, TDS can be as low as 30! His point was their water should be as clean as discus and I think its not emphasised (quite) as much because rams are simply smaller, cheaper and easier fish to replace if they die?

I'll probably start a thread of my own at some point to stop hijacking yours and others!

 

[DeniseF]

I was wondering that re spawn size. When the small surviving spawn of +-15 on day 6 from my black pair dispersed, eating and swimming well, come evening time (using natural light only on my breeder tank) when it was time to collect them up - and there not being a defined group - the female just gargled them too long as she went back and forth trying to find one, eventually swallowing them.
This morning there were only 6 left and I took them out, especially given the female looks ready to lay again.
Still quite impressed they made it to day 6 on their first attempt (minus the initial eggs that were laid when I got them into the tank, subsequently eaten). I wonder how much of it is down to the light, and how much is down to the fact that this pair has had minimal handling and moving around in their lifetime? Most say that shouldn't affect them, but they have just been a solid, chilled pair from day 1.

Interesting again re TDS and spawning as coralbandit says. I also would love to have a crack at Discus oneday, but need adequate space, time and money, etc. For now rams keep me occupied and amused!
Speaking of TDS, I remember reading on Marco's thread on another forum that in some native water places for rams, TDS can be as low as 30! His point was their water should be as clean as discus and I think its not emphasised (quite) as much because rams are simply smaller, cheaper and easier fish to replace if they die?

I'll probably start a thread of my own at some point to stop hijacking yours and others!

This is the thing with Rams I think, they are truly addictive.. I think partly its their absolute beauty (cue Discus on that as well) and partly its the sheer challenge when you hear they are so difficult!

This evening so far my community tank is keeping their fry segregated.. I added a couple of plants to the middle group, to create a barrier, since they were getting battered from both sides and it didnt seem fair.. the fry though are doing great, swapping from one parent to the next without harm.. as anticipated though the middle bunch have lost some of theirs to those either side.. I can tell the difference as those are a day older and swimming better than the other two lots.. I REALLY want to clean their tank though.. its driving me insane.. I think I must be a bit OCD haha

p.s no worries on adding to the thread, its nice to have others experiences on there.

 

[Cale24]

This is the thing with Rams I think, they are truly addictive.. I think partly its their absolute beauty (cue Discus on that as well) and partly its the sheer challenge when you hear they are so difficult!

This evening so far my community tank is keeping their fry segregated.. I added a couple of plants to the middle group, to create a barrier, since they were getting battered from both sides and it didnt seem fair.. the fry though are doing great, swapping from one parent to the next without harm.. as anticipated though the middle bunch have lost some of theirs to those either side.. I can tell the difference as those are a day older and swimming better than the other two lots.. I REALLY want to clean their tank though.. its driving me insane.. I think I must be a bit OCD haha

p.s no worries on adding to the thread, its nice to have others experiences on there.

Yup, I last kept rams nearly 20 years ago when last in the hobby and when it was only GBR available (if I remember right) as opposed to all the other colour variations. While I enjoyed them in general, I wonder why I dig them so much more now? I had greater interest in other fish back then, mostly loaches. Maybe that's just the way it goes!

Glad your fry are doing ok in their extended family - plants sound like a good idea as barriers. I guess the concern will be when the females are ready to lay again - maybe some of the fry will get absorbed into the other group, etc? Fun experiment to watch I'm sure.
Know the feeling of wanting to clean! I left the glass alone for the most part and just vacuumed a bit day to day. I run a small internal filter filled with mostly Matrix, and Macgyvered with filter floss zip-tied around the bottom intake. I clamp a small piece of the same foam into the filter's surface exit with a little plastic peg as even on the lowest flow setting its a bit too much for fry. Also run a small foam filter on the opposite corner for fry grazing and added aeration purposes. Will not be entering any aquascape competitions at this time.

 

[DeniseF]

My communal GBR is doing well today so pleased with that, also found another 2 pairs of 3 that have fry in another tank! At this point I think I am wasting effort with the RO as non RO tanks are doing just fine! So today am doing water changes in all the breeding tanks with just tap water and will see what happens!

On a down note, one of my EBR males (a really nice one) is sick, some intestinal thing - I'm pretty sure its down to overfeeding - I think my next thing is to sort out what they are being fed and try and find a better quality food for them. Not sure if this one will pull through as I've never seen one yet recover from this kind of thing.

 

[Cale24]

My communal GBR is doing well today so pleased with that, also found another 2 pairs of 3 that have fry in another tank! At this point I think I am wasting effort with the RO as non RO tanks are doing just fine! So today am doing water changes in all the breeding tanks with just tap water and will see what happens!

On a down note, one of my EBR males (a really nice one) is sick, some intestinal thing - I'm pretty sure its down to overfeeding - I think my next thing is to sort out what they are being fed and try and find a better quality food for them. Not sure if this one will pull through as I've never seen one yet recover from this kind of thing.

Do you feed boiled & shelled peas or cucumber? I do quite often to help their digestion - at least 3x per week in the mornings. Staple diet is Tetra Pro Colour flake; HikarI Vibrabites (although some don't enjoy it much and battle to eat if they're small); some local brand pellet and then the usual frozen foods. Used to do Tubiflex worms occasionally but read they are bad news so no more. I also add microworms or Ocean Nurtrition BBS to my breeding tank now and then to alert the pair of suitable food for fry.

 

[DeniseF]

Do you feed boiled & shelled peas or cucumber? I do quite often to help their digestion - at least 3x per week in the mornings. Staple diet is Tetra Pro Colour flake; HikarI Vibrabites (although some don't enjoy it much and battle to eat if they're small); some local brand pellet and then the usual frozen foods. Used to do Tubiflex worms occasionally but read they are bad news so no more. I also add microworms or Ocean Nurtrition BBS to my breeding tank now and then to alert the pair of suitable food for fry.

no I haven't fed peas but I did try cucumber and they left it. I've been feeding Baby Brine Shrimp and Bug Bites, but I'm going to be purchasing the same stuff that Marco does for his rams as I can get it sent from that company to the UK. Its quite expensive but the growth rates he gets on his rams is superb so am going to follow that plan. The nearest fish shop that does any specialist food locally is 30 miles away, which for us, in the UK would be considered quite a trek! (Small potatoes for you guys I'm sure )
I think the one thing I need to get really good at now, is the feeding!

So, I ended my 3 pair experiment tonight by removing the remaining fry. I do have plenty of fry so had accepted a few losses, but the parents were getting nasty with each other. I also removed 2 other sets of fry in another GBR communal tank and moved another who had laid their eggs on top of a car ornament, into their own tank.

I also witnessed something really weird with an EBR pair (well not so much of a pair apparently) The male had previously been with another female and beat up on her pretty bad, so I removed her and put another feisty female in who I thought had a better chance of an even pairing. Well, today she spawned and instead of the male coming in and doing his bit, he was diving in and trying to eat or maybe steal the eggs. She went for him bad and saw him off several times before rapidly eating the eggs she had laid.

I removed the male as that is not the sort of behaviour I want to breed and found a smaller less dominant male.. immediately the female went to pecking the ground and showing spawning flirting behaviour. I have no idea why the first male behaved like that.. whether because it was a different female he thought her laying on his patch was a threat.. but it was really bizarre.

 

[coralbandit]

I had 8 pairs going one season in my dorm style 40 g tank aka ram ranch !

All is well with the pairs as long as eggs are removed every time .
They breed and kept pretty much to them selves ..Almost perfect amount of aggression and defense just for territory without injury ..
Leave eggs for a day or miss them and all chaos breaks loose .
Also if a mate was lost in that setting no other was accepted and the loner was not long for the group ..
Kind of thinking/hoping I will be able to steal eggs from each of the 4 pairs I have in the discus tank..