Electric Blue Ram Breeding Advice

Hi

My Electric Blue Rams have just spawned, I'd like to leave them in the main tank, its a 180L and there are only a total of 4 EBR in there including the breeding pair. However, I have read that they don't make particularly caring parents.

They have spawned in a little car ornament that I have in the tank and we realised they had spawned due to some weird behaviour, it seemed as if they were sucking up small little air bubbles or possibly sand and blowing this out in the car, taking turns over and over to do this.

When we looked we noticed a batch of eggs. I have checked this morning approx 24-36 hours after spawning and all the eggs attached seem to still be a translucent colour, but there do seem to be some white ones that have been moved off to one side.

Both the rams so far seem to be guarding the eggs in turn with one always being present. So, I have a few questions.
1. Given the behaviour so far of the prospective parents, does this seem a good start for them looking after their fry?
2. If they stay in the tank should I do water changes given my natural PH is 7.6 and I have to be careful about keeping the PH lowered.
3. Feeding wise, if they are kept in the main tank what's the best way to feed them as I understand they are limited to small food such as baby brine shrimp. I can syringe some into the car it has a roof so may contain some of it.
4. Air wise, the car is in a far corner away from the air pump and is below the outlet for the external filter so there is some water movement but not much. Should I add additional air near the car via a tiny air stone or is this needed?

Thanks in advance.

Denise

 

coralbandit

Welcome to Fishlore Denise! I've tagged a member above who is just the right person to answer your questions. He is a Ram breeding master.

 

Thanks stella1979
First if you plan on keeping the eggs and fry in tank you need to place a sponge over the filter intake or they will likely get sucked up [if not eaten].
How the rams act now is a good sign but they fail miserably even when they want to do right thing IMO. Rams are notorious as being slow learners when it comes to breeding with many saying it can take several attempts before they get it right. They will eat the fry IMO 95% of the time .
I have only raised enough ram with parents to count on my hands .
I separate the eggs and artificially hatch them. Then they get a small tank 2 gallon to themselves with just an airstone or very small sponge filter blowing bubbles gently.
If they become free swimmers after they are wigglers then the live BBS with a syringe is the way to go. At least 2 feedings a day with 3+ being better.
Fry are very small so careful for first two weeks not to overfeed, as this will quickly foul the water. Around 3 weeks old you can try to feed them very small prepared foods like first bites or golden pearls 200-500 micron.
I trick train the fish by adding a little of the prepared food with the BBS and they adjust to the prepared over the next week.
I feed live BBS all the way up to 2 months at least.

 

Hi

coralbandit thanks ok so it seems that probably the best option is to remove them. I have a sponge filter as well as the external filter in their current tank so will move that over. Would you put the tank bare bottom for the fry? It currently has very small gravel in it.

Thanks

Denise

 

BB will help the fry get around and make cleaning the tank easier.
If you can take the whole car before they hatch it will be best as moving fry even with a turkey baster or airline syphon is tricky and rarely successful at best.
Keep them at 82f. They hatch in a day or two into wigglers and then into free swimmers in another 2-3 days usually .Temperature has an effect on hatch time so warmer is faster.Don't get carried away 86 is tops and I try to stay around 84 for max myself.
Don't worry about your tap water.Soft water is only needed for the eggs to become fertile. If they are fertile they should be fine in your tap water.
I raise my rams in my sourcewater that is 7.6pH/2-3 KH/9GH with a TDS of 350. I breed in water that has a TDS of 100 or less.

 

My temp is 84 at the moment in both tanks so that sounds a good start. Thanks for the tip on the water because I have a real nightmare getting it down 7.6 is our standard and its buffered so any kind of ph reducer is only temporary.

How often will they produce eggs? Obv if all is as it should be in terms of tank params

 

If you take the eggs and continue to feed the pair well they may spawn again in as little as 5 days .2 weeks is most common though.
To lower your ph you should be mixing RO water with your source and not using buffers.
The mix of RO with your tap can be done exactly the same every time adding consistency for the fish and better true parameters .
I really only measure TDS with a HM TDS3 pen[$20].
As I mentioned t he low TDS/soft water is really only needed for the eggs but it is also documented that it is helpful in raising fry .I switch my fry to my tap at 2 months but also have some of my own rams spawn and raise fry in 7.6 pH /350+ TDS.
Now not to break your spirit but rams are considered one of the hardest common fish to raise.Many get many spawns that never make it past 2 weeks.
So don't get upset if they don't last .Just keep trying and treating your pairs like Kings and Queens and you will have fun and frustration..Welcome to breeding rams !

 

IMG_3066

• DeniseF
• Sep 27, 2018

Electric Blue Ram Breeding Pair

HI coralbandit thanks for the update, have got an RO unit on order coming next week. I have noticed today some wigglers and now some worm looking things in the tank I can't see a head on them though, is that the fry or have I just bred a nice batch of worms!

I know what you mean about Rams, I have always loved them but in the past been a bit ignorant of their needs and put them in a community tank.. now though they have a tank of their own 180L for just 4! When I got them I medicated them just in case and they get many MANY water changes lol! I truly think they are amazing and already they will feed from my hand - especially for bloodworms! But flake food is a big no no.

IMG_3066

• DeniseF
• Sep 27, 2018

Electric Blue Ram Breeding Pair

Kings and Queens they definitely are.

 

I have not seen worms before . You do know what wigglers look like ?
Having tanks BB is the difference in having something like that if you have them.
Most think rams are hard to keep. I just think they are inflexible ,and honestly respect it .
I am not so accepting of change or what 'others' think is good myself.
Once I started keeping rams in a species only tank the breeding just happened .
It took me years to gain the ability to raise as many fry successfully as I do now .
I know there is more then one way to anything and my way is not necessarily the right way but it is what has worked best for me so far .
I try to keep evolving in breeding and I can only learn through sharing and receiving feed back.

 

I don't know what wrigglers look like excuse my ignorance on it, what I have seen is the eggs looking like they have a tail and seem to quiver then I see some that are not attached to an egg, unfortunately some sand got into the tank when I moved the car over so its difficult to see them clearly I am afraid or get a picture. I think probably the worms are different, they move a bit like catepillars do along the floor... they could have already been in the tank - they are hair thick and about 6-8mm long, I googled them and they look like Detritus worms - I suspect they were in the gravel when I cleaned it out. It seems they are harmless to fish but don't know what that means for this batch.

I can see now why people get very clinical and encourage the rams to breed on a flat stone, the car was far too rough and full of sand. Still sounds like I have a few years to practice looking forward to it!

 

Its now Day 5 since they spawned and there are definitely fry in there, they are tiny though, look like a pair of eyes a round body and tail but some of them are now attempting to swim in the tank a few are able to swim up 5 inches from the bottom and around the whole tank. Some are still just going round in circles. There is some mulm that was in the car that dropped out, which they are hiding in it and feeding off it it seems and I swear I have seen one jump on one of the detritus worms and eat it! There are also some creatures I have identified as Cyclops in there - I am hoping they will eat those too.

The tank is on my desk so its very tempting to watch them instead of work . BTW coralbandit I saw a video of your fish room on YouTube - very envious! What a set up and so many beautiful rams

 

You have wigglers now turning into free swimmers . Congratulations !
They will need food the day they all[for the most ] part free swim.
When most are swimming they will be hungry within hours ..
Continued good luck !
Thank you for the compliment .I am pretty proud of my fish .What else does a crazy fish guy have to fall back on? !

 

And here they are.. not very clear I grant you. I think they are eating the mulm.. is that bad for them?

 

The mulm is not bad for them unless it impacts water quality . They may be eating microscopic life in it …
I use a turkey baster to remove as much as possible as there will always be some left .
A clear baster makes it easy to see if you suck up any fry.

 

HI I did a 75% water change today and 50% yesterday, I am constantly checking the water quality and its not ideal as I had to remove the small internal filter it would have been too strong but I will put it back in when they are bigger with a stocking (panty hose) over the intake. The vinegar worms I ordered haven't turned up yet so if I take it out now I only have liquifry and by all I have read that's rubbish. The water changes are literally taking forever though because I have to be so careful not to get any of the fry caught in the water I am removing and when I put it back I am being careful not to create a massive current.

I used to have lots of Molly fry, so once they get to that size I am more confident of caring for them, but these are just so tiny that its a whole different ball game! Thank you so much coralbandit for your advice, it is honestly really appreciated. I'll be on the hunt for a turkey baster tomorrow

 

3-4 weeks before they are the size of most livebearer fry !
You sound like you have a good plan IMO.
I love air driven sponge filters .Even uncycled they catch floating around and most of the food is going to be just that !
Less time for you to remove what the sponge catches .I clean some of mine every couple days when they get slimey from BBS.

 

Seems like a few less fry today, but having looked again there are more than I thought initially.

Definitely need a different set up for raising them though, so going to be watching more vids, including coralbandit again!

 

Until they are over 4 weeks old even an only 1/2 filled 10 gallon is a pretty lot of territory to cover.
The would do fine in a 2.5 g possibly until 2 months old maybe even longer.
keeping them close is important I think .
They see others eat and want to find out .They race a little faster to get there .
Even with my dip and pours they can see the activity of the tank they float in which is fed at the same time .
A little 'monkey see monkey do' !
I keep breeding pairs next to each other also with 1/2 a divider for privacy if wanted but to feed near the top they must see each other and compete.
It is very interesting to see how mad the fish that is fed after his neighbor becomes .

 

It's funny I told my partner the other day that I was going to turn our small lounge into a fish room.. I was only half joking! This tank is a little 27L so just over 7g they seem ok and there are lots of little very very tiny creatures in the tank they seem to be picking at (I can only see them with my phone camera on full zoom) hoping they will be ok until I can get some vinegar eels and baby brine shrimp cultures going as really doing this all on the fly as I was not expecting the rams to start breeding so soon. These ones came from Pets and Home (a bit like your petsmart type stores) and to be honest I didn't really hold out much hope of any breeding since I heard that they tend to be poor quality imports.

However, I de-wormed them, got the water right and fed them bloodworms and they've probably only been in that tank a month max and have produced. I will definitely be better prepared next time, the female is already looking a bit fatter in the belly so luck willing, I will get some more.

 

Here we are on day 5. I decided to keep doing the videos as its something I would be interested to use as a comparison myself.

 

I am struggling with the tank as its not cycled. Even the tiny internal filter I had on the tank is creating too much current. A lot of the fry have moved to the water surface which doesn't seem good! I have just done 2 changes to remove the ammonia I have gotten the nitrate to zero and the ammonia to 0-0.25ppm. I am really stuck! I am doing big water changes daily, sometimes twice. Since its likely I am not going to be able to get this small sponge filter to cycle would you suggest putting in some of the additive to neutralize the ammonia. Normally I would never do this, but I just can't see how I can cycle this tank safely with these tiny fish in it.

Update:
Don't know if this will work but I have taken the base of the cycled filter, and connected it via a stocking to the air pump, so fingers crossed this will work!

If I keep this lot alive it will be a miracle

 

If you use prime it can be used to detoxify ammonia and nitrite for up to 48 hours..
Try with a pad to clean up some of the mulm as I am sure that is where the nutrients are coming from .
They look good in the video.

 

HI coralbandit well I woke up this morning to approx 50% dead fry. There are still some that look ok though and it looks like those that are left have been feeding off the dead ones so I have not put any other food in at all. I have removed the majority of the mulm, it took a while since I kept accidentally picking up fry, there are probably about 25 survivors at this point.

 

Well day 6 and its looking a bit more pathetic.

There are more in there than you'd think, sadly I think the white bits floating round the tank are the remains of the brothers and sisters of my little fry!

 

They look pretty good to me .
My experience is dead fry sink and stay on bottom ,even in much smaller containers where there is more flow .
I think the white is bugs and some detritus.
The tank looks pretty clean so just keep up the good work .
Have the vinegar eels arrived or are you hatching BBS.
Miracles happen you know . They are hard work so most people give up before they happen .They do happen.

 

HI coralbandit

Maybe less dead than I thought then! The vinegar eels have arrived and I have made up my mixture, but it was an ebay purchase, you know the sort where it looks like you are ordering a massive bag and what you actually get is more the size of a postage stamp! I used a tip from aquarium co-op on making them and put some filter media in the neck topped up with water and the top stays clear so you can see the Vinegar Eels better. I have just looked there do seem to be more there, this morning I could barely see any.

I have also ordered some BBS so I'll have both. Fish definitely hard work, that's for sure but lots of fun! My RO unit has just arrived too, so will be excited to get that fitted. I daren't tell my other half how much all of this has cost

 

Look up the Wright way to harvest vinegar eels .It sounds like what you are doing and is definitely the best .
Raising rams is priceless IMO.
I get so amped up about them !
Just posted pics of eggs,wigglers ,free swimmers,2 week olds and 1 month olds
Have a look at my Albino Angel thread .
I think you are doing GREAT !

 

Hi, yes that's what I am doing with them, the water still does smell a bit vinegary (even though its clear), is that ok? Will go have a look at your pics.. for a novice like me any and all pics and videos are invaluable. thank you

 

There is no not smelling vinegar once it is in the air , like being at public pool with chlorine .
Yea as long as you cap the bottle neck with cotton and then fill the top with just water they should be good to go.

 

Day 7 and I am really having to hunt around now to find some survivors. I have been battling getting this tank cycling and there have been a lot of casualties. I have now made my own air driven filter with a kids water bottle and the tank already looks much better.

I have also switched from Vinegar Eels to BBS, the fry were so scattered and coralbandit said they need to be close, there are a few bright ones in there, but many just don't seem to notice and just pick at the bottom. A lot of the BBS sink so they are now eating.

Fingers crossed the tank will now have enough media to cycle and I can at least keep these ones alive.

 

Day 8 and no point making a video today I just think the ammonia was too much, I have also had difficulty in syphoning the bottom, fry hiding in there have gotten suctioned up and no matter how careful I have been its quite a traumatic experience for them (and me lol). For anyone else reading this thread I would suggest that before embarking on trying to raise fry that you watch the pro's videos and ensure you have the correct set up and a fully cycled tank. Frankly I am amazed that they survived this long in an uncycled tank, but as much as constant water changes in this big tank helped reduce ammonia, even if you are careful, constantly changing the water causes turbulence and these fragile fry just cannot take it. I've also had another problem, a white very fine coating/film - not sure if bacteria or something but it catches any detritus and the small fry are getting caught up in it, like a spiders web, this is both on the sides and bottom of the tank.

Lots of lessons learned.

P.S Looks like my pair are ready to go again so going to do a water change in the hope that spurs them on
P.P.S Typical, following installation of my DIY filter the fry tank has finally completed its cycle. I can see 2 fry left and I have searched hard.
P.P.P.S My pair have just laid their second batch of eggs, am going to leave them in this time as I know for sure my original set up does not work (looking for a new tank to suit)

 

Oh dear, The female EBR has just finished polishing off her eggs!! I gave them plenty of food to make sure she wasn't eating them because she was hungry, but she ate all the good ones first then the unfertilized ones last. They are still guarding their den but there isn't anything left to guard Planning my set up for breeding them, until then I will have to see if they cotton on that eating your own eggs isn't how its done!

Update: She didn't eat them - she moved them!!!

 

Oh dear, The female EBR has just finished polishing off her eggs!!

Update: She didn't eat them - she moved them!!!

And this is the tricky fish .
I have mentioned before my rams move the good eggs/wigglers away from the bad ones completely.Possible confusion but IMO they are taking the healthy ones to a completely clean ,healthy ,bacteria free area .
Good luck with these !

 

I've had the best luck with removing the female, it seems the females eat the eggs/fry more often. I have some fry being cared for and guarded by the male, he's doing great so far!

good luck!!

 

So, I have wrigglers again, parents are fiercly guarding them at the mo

 

My gold ram bit me really hard when I took his eggs a few days ago, it was odd as I’ve never gotten more then a tiny peck lol.

That's good they’re guarding!

 

AquaticJ they definitely were making contact and the second one has really coloured up where he was really wishy washy before. His ventral fins have gone almost a violet blue on the edges - very pretty. I am going to keep an eye on them and move them out if it gets nasty! The female of the breeding pair was also chiming in but sometimes she seemed to get mistaken as to her mate and bit him instead!

They feed from my hands so they are very friendly, I am not sure what they would do if I tried to take these eggs away, last time I put some bloodworms in one side of the tank while removing the eggs from the other side.. as you can see from my thread though it didn't go too well trying to cycle the tank with miniscule fry in it and all of them died!!!

 

So far so good, the fry are just starting to free swim - only one or two at this point. Both parents make sure they stay put with the rest though, carefully sucking them up in their mouths and spitting them back with the rest.

Edit: Think I will have to move the other pair, the fry are starting to free swim and they have already eaten one fry that was venturing out while the parents were busy trying to control the others.

 

Keeping the parents with fry is dangerous enough for fry IMO.
Any other fish in tank is like handing the parents bullets . Sorry to say ,personable ,pretty and interestingly active these fish are but smart they are not IMO.
I am willing to say we broke them but most are seriously broken...To get a pair to raise fry is a challenge . The math in my fish room says I am about two thousand times a better parent to the fry then they are !

 

Well no more babies today, yesterday evening they were starting to free swim and one got eaten so I prepared my smaller tank to move the other pair into this morning. My other half (who has previously shown zero interest and more annoyance in the fish) came up this morning and said wow there are loads of them, so I said turn the light off until I get a chance to get the other two out and he didnt do it! By the time my daughter came down 10 mins later they were all gone!!!

Up until then even though the babies were swimming the parents had kept putting them back on the nesting area, but once a few were moving at once they lost control.