Be Careful when using Flourish Excel!!

[AvalancheDave]

I feel like there are other underlying issues here other than Excel. I have been using it for a while now with no problems with my fish or anything.

There may be unseen damage or at the very least pain as it's a chemical irritant. A proper toxicology study would expose fish to glutaraldehyde and then examine the livers, kidneys, etc., under magnification to look for damage.

That was not done:

https://tropicalaquarium.co.za/threads/so-who-uses-excel-gluteraldehyde.5411/page-3

Glutaraldehyde toxicity also varies with pH, temperature, organic load, and numerous other factors not yet discovered. People who have issues probably have tanks where toxicity is enhanced and they'll see deaths while other tanks' fish are merely injured or subject to irritation.

 

[nil rare]

Not to go off topic OP, but sudden color loss/darkening and quick death of Blue Rams is very common with store bought Rams. It has to do with breeding conditions and the inability to fight off disease and things.

I guess multiple factors also could be the cause in the GBR but losing my 2 cory that I had for more than a year could not be explained. because both died the next day.

There may be unseen damage or at the very least pain as it's a chemical irritant. A proper toxicology study would expose fish to glutaraldehyde and then examine the livers, kidneys, etc., under magnification to look for damage.

That was not done:

https://tropicalaquarium.co.za/threads/so-who-uses-excel-gluteraldehyde.5411/page-3

Glutaraldehyde toxicity also varies with pH, temperature, organic load, and numerous other factors not yet discovered. People who have issues probably have tanks where toxicity is enhanced and they'll see deaths while other tanks' fish are merely injured or subject to irritation.

Wow that kinda explains why I did not lose my other fish die the first time but they died the second and third time. Maybe it causes damage when chronic uses cause organ damage or something like that.

 

[AvalancheDave]

The message about oxygen being reduced came from Seachem themselves in a forum FYI. (not saying they're being 100% truthful)

I get nothing relevant Googling "glutaraldehyde reducing agent." I also can't find its oxidation reduction potential.

While it may be that it reduces dissolved oxygen, it's not how it works as a biocide. Viruses, prions, etc., can't be killed by lowering oxygen levels a little.

Wow that kinda explains why I did not lose my other fish die the first time but they died the second and third time. Maybe it causes damage when chronic uses cause organ damage or something like that.

If you read the thread on the South African forum, a biochemistry professor talks about how it is literally pickling the organs.

And what happens when the kidneys of a freshwater fish are damaged? You get dropsy...

 

[DoubleDutch]

Seachem is very secretive about their ingredients. Almost everything is listed as proprietary in their MSDS.

Glutaraldehyde is used as a fish poison and no research had been done about chronic exposure at lower doses. In another forum Seachem admitted they didn't do the research either. They just picked an arbitrary dosage that worked for plants that didn't seem to affect the fish in their tanks. There's no guarantee the recommended dosage is safe for all fish in all tanks and no guarantee it doesn't cause long term damage.

I agree with Dave.
Glut is used as an insecticide / pesticide and sprayed in seacontainer to kill bugs.
Of course that's quite in a stronger dose.

If one kind of fish is more sensitive then another to waterparameter, Ph, TDS, Kh, Gh, temperature why wouldn't there be a difference in sensitivity to chemicals.
Some scaleless fish are also more sensitive to specific meds !

I've read hundreds of threads about this suspecion (Easylife Carbo is sometging alike here) so it could be true to me.

 

[AvalancheDave]

Its <2% of that. Also, there are a lot of banned fish products outside the US that we use with no problems. So when dosing per the directions, it should not be killing your fish. I know someone who doubles the dose with their Shrimp tank and has for years. If he hasn’t had deaths I just don’t really see how UNDER-dosing non-invertes would possibly cause any harm. It just doesn’t convince me because most people using it have no problems, including myself.

You can't tell unless you sacrifice the fish and do a histopathological examination. This is how safe levels are determined. Not by trial and error and gross examination.

 

[nil rare]

If you read the thread on the South African forum, a biochemistry professor talks about how it is literally pickling the organs.

And what happens when the kidneys of a freshwater fish are damaged? You get dropsy...

I wish more people like you were out there to inform others of the possible awful outcomes of such products. because fish's lives may not be as important as a human's but still its our responsibility to take care of them and keep them alive.

 

[AvalancheDave]

I agree with Dave.
Glut is used as an insecticide / pesticide and sprayed in seacontainer to kill bugs.
Of course that's quite in a stronger dose.

Yeah, they use higher doses because they want to sanitize the containers quickly. Nobody's really studied long term exposure to lower doses.

 

[WTFish?]

You can't tell unless you sacrifice the fish and do a histopathological examination. This is how safe levels are determined. Not by trial and error and gross examination.

I really enjoy reading what you’ve stated about this! Thanks so much sharing. May I ask what you use, if anything, for plants, algae etc?

 

[nil rare]

You can't tell unless you sacrifice the fish and do a histopathological examination. This is how safe levels are determined. Not by trial and error and gross examination.

That is true I studied biology and that is why from the signs and symptoms I saw kinda connected the dots to see there is correlation with its use and fish dying.

 

[AquaticJ]

There may be unseen damage or at the very least pain as it's a chemical irritant. A proper toxicology study would expose fish to glutaraldehyde and then examine the livers, kidneys, etc., under magnification to look for damage.

That was not done:

https://tropicalaquarium.co.za/threads/so-who-uses-excel-gluteraldehyde.5411/page-3

Glutaraldehyde toxicity also varies with pH, temperature, organic load, and numerous other factors not yet discovered. People who have issues probably have tanks where toxicity is enhanced and they'll see deaths while other tanks' fish are merely injured or subject to irritation.

A Seachem scientist offers a lot of info in that thread. Worth the read.

 

[nil rare]

I really enjoy reading what you’ve stated about this! Thanks so much sharing. May I ask what you use, if anything, for plants, algae etc?

I saw someone said something named "Thrive" fertilizer but still do your research before trying it out. You never know you may end up putting that one on sale too

 

[WTFish?]

I saw someone said something named "Thrive" fertilizer but still do your research before trying it out. You never know you may end up putting that one on sale too

Yeah I use Thrive...not for sale yet. Lol

 

[ETNsilverstar]

How poisonous it is to fish is determined by the dose, though who knows what the safe level truly is. Even the wrong dose of water can be fatal to humans, so it's a matter of knowing what that safe level is.

 

[Keith83]

I resisted along time because of these kind if warnings but my black beard algie was becoming a huge problem so I gave it a try. Fast forward 3 months, not one sick or dead fish, and I have about 30 in a 55 gallon. Plants are doing great and I no longer have BB algie on my plants it glass. 1 cap full per day. I do about a 60 percent water change once a week and I add 5 cap fulls after that as recommended

 

[nil rare]

How poisonous it is to fish is determined by the dose, though who knows what the safe level truly is. Even the wrong dose of water can be fatal to humans, so it's a matter of knowing what that safe level is.

Its so true but how would we know how much is safe? everyone just go by what the label says...

I resisted along time because of these kind if warnings but my black beard algie was becoming a huge problem so I gave it a try. Fast forward 3 months, not one sick or dead fish, and I have about 30 in a 55 gallon. Plants are doing great and I no longer have BB algie on my plants it glass. 1 cap full per day. I do about a 60 percent water change once a week and I add 5 cap fulls after that as recommended

Wow good for you. Personally have not had good results I just stick with keeping it plain and simple and no additives!

 

[AvalancheDave]

I have to run now but this discussion covers extrapolating long term exposure levels from short term toxicity tests:

 

[toeknee]

I get nothing relevant Googling "glutaraldehyde reducing agent." I also can't find its oxidation reduction potential.

While it may be that it reduces dissolved oxygen, it's not how it works as a biocide. Viruses, prions, etc., can't be killed by lowering oxygen levels a little.

Here's the forum discussion with seachem tech support with them mentioning excel in conjunction with other water conditioners can cause oxygen reduction. Poisoning reaction with Excel - Seachem - Aquatic Plant Central

 

[Crazycoryfishlady]

I just felt like a few things that weren't brought up in this topic should possibly be discussed and answered fully.

Re: the instruction says 5 ml for each 10 gallon (my aquarium is 30 gallon which should be around 15 ml of the solution) while I only added 5 ml to my entire 30 gallon.
I just added them everyday exactly at 12 pm just 5 ml capful which it says for 10 gallon 5 ml but my aquarium is 30 gallons and I only added 5 ml everyday. I usually have the lights on for 6-8 hours each day

the instruction says 5 ml for each 10 gallon (my aquarium is 30 gallon which should be around 15 ml of the solution) while I only added 5 ml to my entire 30 gallon.

Yea yesterday I actually measured with a syringe exactly on 5 ml. Honestly because I have seen this happening 3 times I just wanted to share with others who may face the same devastating outcome and let them know that the likely cause is this. Kudos to the people who had good luck with this solution.

I'm just a bit confused and perplexed by this post if others didn't follow this..

You said multiple times at noon you were doing 5ml and measuring 5ml every day.
Then you go on to say you were dosing 5ml the first day, then 3ml every day after that, so I'm a little confused on which is the truth.

This post since the beginning has reminded me of another post claiming prime and only prime killed the cycle of multiple tanks and put fish in extreme danger.
Such a freak occurence among all our other good ones.

Yea the first time that I added the solution for 3 days I used 5 ml the first day and did 3 ml the two days after . The last 2 times this occurrence happened I only started on the first day adding 5 ml after a water change but then the next day fish died so basically I stopped the process before it even started ))

Thanks. But you know what? I became so sad that I lost my fish because of my stupidity that I stick with just adding water conditioner and beneficial bacteria. if my plants start to die at least its better than my poor fish

You should not be adding beneficial bacteria to an already cycled tank.

JBL has a few blog posts about the dangers of "liquid carbon:"



Remember, there's no patent or trade secret protection for Excel. They could easily order a barrel of glutaraldehyde from Joe's Fracking Supplies and cash in like the rest of the manufacturers producing liquid carbon. But they chose not to...

What is this trade secret "protection" you speak of?
If the ingredients are listed as proprietary, that indeed means they are protected trade secrets so other companies cannot copy their exact formula without tearing it apart compound by compound.
Even if they purchased fracking material, they would supposedly still have to dilute and add other products to it, seems far too time consuming to me.
If it was simply one product, a chemist could test for it and easily copy their 'single ingredient proprietary recipe' and claim it does even better than excel, and save money while doing it, without having to even test it, because "excel already did that"

 

[goldface]

I dose Excel like I add ingredients in cooking: by guesstimating. Seriously, I just pour it in straight from the bottle. Sometimes I accidently add a lot more than I should. Oops. I used to dose 2.6g up to the first thread in the bottle's cap. Then I got lazy. I guess fishkeeping really is an art. If so, I'm a great artist.

 

[Crazycoryfishlady]

I dose Excel like I add ingredients in cooking: by guesstimating. Seriously, I just pour it in straight from the bottle. Sometimes I accidently add a lot more than I should. Oops. I used to dose 2.6g ip to the first thread in the bottle's cap. I got lazy.

That's IT!
You're fired!
We can't have you walking in here willy nilly with your crazy dosing! It's not allowed!

You get out of here before someone else realizes recipes are for the weak! We can't be (held responsible) teaching those radical ideas!

 

[VeiltailKing]

I dose Excel like I add ingredients in cooking: by guesstimating. Seriously, I just pour it in straight from the bottle. Sometimes I accidently add a lot more than I should. Oops. I used to dose 2.6g up to the first thread in the bottle's cap. Then I got lazy. I guess fishkeeping really is an art. If so, I'm a great artist.

I honestly do the same with my 6 gallon and have never had any problems lol

 

[Crazycoryfishlady]

I honestly do the same with my 6 gallon and have never had any problems lol

DOoooh!
Not you too!!!

 

[goldface]

That's IT!
You're fired!
We can't have you walking in here willy nilly with your crazy dosing! It's not allowed!

You get out of here before someone else realizes recipes are for the weak! We can't be (held responsible) teaching those radical ideas!

I don't use dechlorinator either!
But you're right. I don't think ppl like me much when I start giving out advice, lol.

 

[-Mak-]

The toxicity of excel, API CO2 booster, and every single other carbon supplement on the market is well known. It’s dilute glutaraldehyde. However, whatever dose manufacturers recommend has been safe for most people. I do not know why this particular dose was chosen, but to me it just makes sense that long term there would be some negative effects. Carcinogens don’t cause cancer immediately, it shows over time. But is an average fish or shrimp’s lifespan long enough for effects to manifest? There’s so little info on this topic.

Besides that fact, excel has little use besides killing algae, and the store should have recommended a light or fertilizer instead. Moss does not need extra carbon to be healthy.

 

[nil rare]

I just felt like a few things that weren't brought up in this topic should possibly be discussed and answered fully.





I'm just a bit confused and perplexed by this post if others didn't follow this..

You said multiple times at noon you were doing 5ml and measuring 5ml every day.
Then you go on to say you were dosing 5ml the first day, then 3ml every day after that, so I'm a little confused on which is the truth.

This post since the beginning has reminded me of another post claiming prime and only prime killed the cycle of multiple tanks and put fish in extreme danger.
Such a freak occurence among all our other good ones.





You should not be adding beneficial bacteria to an already cycled tank.




What is this trade secret "protection" you speak of?
If the ingredients are listed as proprietary, that indeed means they are protected trade secrets so other companies cannot copy their exact formula without tearing it apart compound by compound.
Even if they purchased fracking material, they would supposedly still have to dilute and add other products to it, seems far too time consuming to me.
If it was simply one product, a chemist could test for it and easily copy their 'single ingredient proprietary recipe' and claim it does even better than excel, and save money while doing it, without having to even test it, because "excel already did that"

Dude why are you attacking me? I am just stating what has happened to me. Jeez people these days have to tolerance to mistakes. this incident happened to me 3 times and each time the first day I added 5 ml and then only for the first time I added 3 ml on the consecutive days the other 2 times that I added 5 ml my fish died the next day.

P.S. if you are this seachem whatever representative it is already showing. STOP advertising your products that may be causing other people's fish to die and do some laboratory experimentation before please.

 

[VeiltailKing]

Dude why are you attacking me? I am just stating what has happened to me. Jeez people these days have to tolerance to mistakes. this incident happened to me 3 times and each time the first day I added 5 ml and then only for the first time I added 3 ml on the consecutive days the other 2 times that I added 5 ml my fish died the next day.

P.S. if you are this seachem whatever representative it is already showing. STOP advertising your products that may be causing other people's fish to die and do some laboratory experimentation before please.

I don’t believe they are attacking you. They are just pointing out the holes in the story. I’m still a little bit lost in the story.

There are no seachem representatives here. I can assure you that. We are just happy customers that have been using the seachem products for years without issues.

 

[nil rare]

I don’t believe they are attacking you. They are just pointing out the holes in the story. I’m still a little bit lost in the story.

There are no seachem representatives here. I can assure you that. We are just happy customers that have been using the seachem products for years without issues.

Which part are you confused on?

 

[AvalancheDave]

I really enjoy reading what you’ve stated about this! Thanks so much sharing. May I ask what you use, if anything, for plants, algae etc?

I don't have a planted tank but if I did I might make it easy on myself and make it plants-only. Then I wouldn't have to balance the welfare of plants vs. fish/inverts. I would buy or build a compressed CO2 system with components chosen for maximum reliability. I'm sure plenty of people out there have nice planted tanks without resorting to regular use of algaecides so that would be my goal.

Here's the forum discussion with seachem tech support with them mentioning excel in conjunction with other water conditioners can cause oxygen reduction. Poisoning reaction with Excel - Seachem - Aquatic Plant Central

I see sodium bisulfite and sodium dithionite mentioned in the scientific literature as inactivators of glutaraldehyde. Both can be/are used as dechlorinating agents so it may be that most dechlorinators will neutralize glutaraldehyde.

Adding a dechlorinator and glutaraldehyde simultaneously should actually make it less likely that either reacts with oxygen.

What is this trade secret "protection" you speak of?
If the ingredients are listed as proprietary, that indeed means they are protected trade secrets so other companies cannot copy their exact formula without tearing it apart compound by compound.
Even if they purchased fracking material, they would supposedly still have to dilute and add other products to it, seems far too time consuming to me.
If it was simply one product, a chemist could test for it and easily copy their 'single ingredient proprietary recipe' and claim it does even better than excel, and save money while doing it, without having to even test it, because "excel already did that"

AFAIK, Seachem has no patents and in recent years removed any mention of ingredients from their MSDS documents. That kind of implies that they're relying on trade secret protection which has its pros and cons.

Early MSDS listed glutaraldehyde as the active ingredient in Excel and plenty of other manufacturers are selling diluted glutaraldehyde as their own liquid carbon product not to mention the people making their own. I heard rumors Seachem tried to patent it but it didn't happen.

A barrel of glutaraldehyde is about $2,000 and can be diluted into about a half million dollars worth of Excel. They can dilute it in one big batch and then bottle it. Even if they did each bottle individually it wouldn't be that time consuming.

 

[Dave125g]

I use excel, root tabs, and injected co2. I only does excel once a week though. No fish deaths that I can directly attribute to excel. Plenty of people use it with no losses.

Dosing it according to the bottle can be dangerous. Here's why.... your 10 gallon tank (for example)only really holds 8 gallons of water. After substrate and hardscape. Less if you like a thick substrate, and lots of wood and rocks. Even less if you keep the water level very low. That's 20% less water volume which means dosing for the full tank size means your over dosing. Over dosing anything can be fatal. Hence lost fish.

 

[Thunder_o_b]

I have some flame moss which was not growing properly. Went to store they advice flourish excel and told me if you don't want to add CO2 this would help your plants grow better. I have added them based on schedule. 2 fish died 3 days after adding this solution. I thought to myself maybe that is not the reason but still titred down and stopped to add it for a while out of fear of losing more. Then again for experiment I restarted adding and again then the next day 2 more died, I stopped completely. Looking around on yotube and forums everyone was happy with the results. I got stupid again and added just a capful (which is 5 ml) to my 30 gallon. Today I found another fish dead :| Honestly I now believe 100% that this stupid solution is causing my fish to die. I just wanted to tell other people to be cautious before adding this to your tank.

I have not read the whole thread. So if any of what I say has been covered apologies.

I have been using Flourish Excel for MANY years in every aquarium we have (10 to 150 gallons) and it has performed wonderfully. Ottos, glass cats, guppies, mollies, ABN, nitrite snails, mystery snails, angels, rams, corys, several different loaches the list is lengthy. I would look to another reason for the fish deaths. Also dosing is critical they warn on the label not to over dose.

That being said I offer my condolences for the loss of your fish.

 

[Ed1957]

I started a post about 8 months ago about this also. I did the same thing you did. I added Excel under dosed and a number of my Cardinals died a couple of days later. I stopped Excel and all was well. But I couldn't leave well enough alone. I admit my plants looked good. So I tried again and more Cardinals died. That was it. No more Excel and no more dead fish. I got all sorts of remarks from posters like I overdosed. I always underdose any fertilizer I use. One comment was how do you know it is Excel. Did you do an autopsy. All I say is it is irresponsible to say Excel is safe. For some it works and some it doesn't. One of the ingredients in Excel is a disinfectant that was used in hospitals but banned.

 

[nil rare]

I started a post about 8 months ago about this also. I did the same thing you did. I added Excel under dosed and a number of my Cardinals died a couple of days later. I stopped Excel and all was well. But I couldn't leave well enough alone. I admit my plants looked good. So I tried again and more Cardinals died. That was it. No more Excel and no more dead fish. I got all sorts of remarks from posters like I overdosed. I always underdose any fertilizer I use. One comment was how do you know it is Excel. Did you do an autopsy. All I say is it is irresponsible to say Excel is safe. For some it works and some it doesn't. One of the ingredients in Excel is a disinfectant that was used in hospitals but banned.

Yeah that is why I have been trying to tell people too but some of the response I get is that its my own fault :| honestly I always keep my parameters within range and keep up with weekly water changed but this happened not once or twice but 3 times!

 

[Ed1957]

You did nothing wrong. Some fish are sensitive to Excel. I will never use it again. I am not telling anyone not to use it but never would tell anyone to use it. I tell my experience and that plenty use it without problems and let you make your decision.

I believe the posters that say they use it without problems but why can't they believe others are having problems using the product. Strange.

 

[goldface]

Y'all aren't following the instructions correctly!

 

[Crazycoryfishlady]

AFAIK, Seachem has no patents and in recent years removed any mention of ingredients from their MSDS documents. That kind of implies that they're relying on trade secret protection which has its pros and cons.

Early MSDS listed glutaraldehyde as the active ingredient in Excel and plenty of other manufacturers are selling diluted glutaraldehyde as their own liquid carbon product not to mention the people making their own. I heard rumors Seachem tried to patent it but it didn't happen.

A barrel of glutaraldehyde is about $2,000 and can be diluted into about a half million dollars worth of Excel. They can dilute it in one big batch and then bottle it. Even if they did each bottle individually it wouldn't be that time consuming.

I was refering to the part where you said "has no trade secret protection" but you sprta cleared that up I guess.
Thanks lol

Dude why are you attacking me? I am just stating what has happened to me. Jeez people these days have to tolerance to mistakes. this incident happened to me 3 times and each time the first day I added 5 ml and then only for the first time I added 3 ml on the consecutive days the other 2 times that I added 5 ml my fish died the next day.

P.S. if you are this seachem whatever representative it is already showing. STOP advertising your products that may be causing other people's fish to die and do some laboratory experimentation before please.

Lol I'm definitely not a seachem rep, probably far too young, and definitely too impatient for that.

I was only quoting multiple of your posts as you have varying information in them.
At first you said everyday you used 5ml, which may not be enough to kill right away, but is more than you should be using.
When someone mentioned that, you changed your dosage and said you only dosed 5ml once, which isn't true if you dosed it 5ml every day.

So I'm trying to figure out what is true and what isn't.

If you followed the dire tions very careful there "shouldnt" have been any deaths as millions of people safely use this product.

I also think it goes to say, regardless of product you should do your research and only use things that appear safe to you.
If an algaecide doesn't sound safe, do not use it.
If proprietary information does not sound safe, stay away from it.

I am by no means blaming you or saying anyone is at fault for deaths, I don't blame fish keepers for deaths unless they purposely killed their fish.

I just want to know which information is correct here and which isn't.

The first thing you said was capfuls, then measured 5ml, then 3's.
I'm only trying to help you understand why your fish may have died.

If you really did dose 5ml per day like your first posts say, then that is possible cause.
But if you're just saying you dosed 3ml to sound like you dosed less, then it could possibly make a product look more dangerous than it really is, due to misinformation.

Again, I'm in no way attacking you or framing you, I'm very sorry about your firsh loss, I know how much they mean to me.
I would just like correct information posted here so others can use factful information when deciding for or against excel.

I hope everything sorts out and you find something that works for you.

 

[mach6]

I've definitely OD on the Excel equivalent, Metricide, in my fish tanks without any adverse effects to my fish or shrimps. Fish like cardinals, neons, rummy nose, etc doesn't seem to last long for me regardless of dosing. I purchased plenty of ottos but stopped buying them because they'd just die and Petsmart no longer sells them for $1~. The only lone otto I have came from that batch more than 5 years ago and surprisingly still living.

 

[Ed1957]

No I didn't overdose and my Cardinals were 6 months old. 1 death when I bought them but after that they were all fine. 9 of them. After Excel I had 3 left. You believe what you want to believe. I know what I know.

I will never put carcinogenics in my tank water to get plants to grow. My fish are primary and my plants are secondary. To each their own.

 

[AvalancheDave]

Y'all aren't following the instructions correctly!

Glutaraldehyde toxicity, especially long-term exposure, isn't well-studied. If you use existing models to extrapolate from short-term exposure to long-term, the dosage is still too high.

The recommended dose should have been tested with a variety of fish and water parameters then the fish should have been subject to histopathological examination to discover any hidden damage.

A truly safe dosage level would probably be so low that it wouldn't benefit plants so one was chosen where the number of deaths wouldn't raise immediate suspicion.

From high to low dosage:

1. Instant mortality (raises too much suspicion)
2. Delayed mortality (fish die for no reason so this may escape notice)
3. Decreased life expectancy/unseen injury
4. Pain but no decrease in life expectancy or cumulative damage
5. No effect on fish whatsoever

People saying that millions of people use Excel without deaths are saying anything but #1 is OK.

We want to be at #5 but probably aren't.

Dosage level 5 is probably too low to benefit plants.

The solution is to find a less toxic alternative.

 

[goldface]

Glutaraldehyde toxicity, especially long-term exposure, isn't well-studied. If you use existing models to extrapolate from short-term exposure to long-term, the dosage is still too high.

The recommended dose should have been tested with a variety of fish and water parameters then the fish should have been subject to histopathological examination to discover any hidden damage.

A truly safe dosage level would probably be so low that it wouldn't benefit plants so one was chosen where the number of deaths wouldn't raise immediate suspicion.

From high to low dosage:

1. Instant mortality (raises too much suspicion)
2. Delayed mortality (fish die for no reason so this may escape notice)
3. Decreased life expectancy/unseen injury
4. Pain but no decrease in life expectancy or cumulative damage
5. No effect on fish whatsoever

People saying that millions of people use Excel without deaths are saying anything but #1 is OK.

We want to be at #5 but probably aren't.

Dosage level 5 is probably too low to benefit plants.

The solution is to find a less toxic alternative.

I agree! It's poison.

 

[jmaldo]

Every few weeks to a month, this type of thread gets started. "To Excel or Not to Excel",
I suppose this debate will rage on and on. Everyone needs to remember. Different strokes for different folks. Awhile back a thread of this type had to be closed due to the verbal attacking that was taking place. We are all here to share our trials and tribulations. And to get information to give our "Wet Pets" the best possible care. And we need to "Agree to Disagree". Remember every tank is as different as a fingerprint.
Best of Luck to all.

 

[_IceFyre_]

Just wanted to add that I’ve never had any issues with excel, even in tanks with super sensitive German blue ram fry, scaleless fish, and inverts.

 

[Authmal]

I'll reiterate that I've never had a problem with any Seachem problem, to date. That said, there may be other factors at play that are causing issues for some people, but no one is taking the time and effort to break it down to that kind of detail. For all I, and most other hobbyists, can determine, it could just be something in the local tap water that's not picked up via normal water tests that's the problem.

Maybe for another diagnostic, buy some polyfilter, cut a 2 inch square and throw it in your filter for a few hours. The color changes can tell you some things about your water, and that may point out the culprit.

I also understand people being confused about some of the details, because they changed 3 times in as many posts. I ignored the inconsistencies, because the concern was the deaths happening at all, and regardless of the dosing you did, they shouldn't have happened. My bristlenose pleco that has been with my during the year that I dosed Excel, and regular Flourish, regularly is still with me, and he's going on 8 years old now. I'm guessing that any mortality increase has been insignificant. I don't know why you're having the deaths, when so many haven't had any.

All that said, I've actually been pointed at Thrive, and it seems to have fewer unidentifiable components, so I've switched to that. Two weeks is too early to tell if there's anything weird going on, but I'm getting a *lot* of growth out of my fast growing stem plants that I wasn't getting 3 weeks ago.

 

[goldface]

I'm just careful I don't spill any on my hands. I heard it causes shrinkage.

 

[Kathryn Crook]

wow, really 98 posts for excel? Geez! Can I get as much activity if I post “sponge filters kill shrimp!”

 

[Crazycoryfishlady]

wow, really 98 posts for excel? Geez! Can I get as much activity if I post “sponge filters kill shrimp!”

Why narrow it to just sponge filters? All filters kill shrimp!

 

[Thunder_o_b]

I was refering to the part where you said "has no trade secret protection" but you sprta cleared that up I guess.
Thanks lol




Lol I'm definitely not a seachem rep, probably far too young, and definitely too impatient for that.

I was only quoting multiple of your posts as you have varying information in them.
At first you said everyday you used 5ml, which may not be enough to kill right away, but is more than you should be using.
When someone mentioned that, you changed your dosage and said you only dosed 5ml once, which isn't true if you dosed it 5ml every day.

So I'm trying to figure out what is true and what isn't.

If you followed the dire tions very careful there "shouldnt" have been any deaths as millions of people safely use this product.

I also think it goes to say, regardless of product you should do your research and only use things that appear safe to you.
If an algaecide doesn't sound safe, do not use it.
If proprietary information does not sound safe, stay away from it.

I am by no means blaming you or saying anyone is at fault for deaths, I don't blame fish keepers for deaths unless they purposely killed their fish.

I just want to know which information is correct here and which isn't.

The first thing you said was capfuls, then measured 5ml, then 3's.
I'm only trying to help you understand why your fish may have died.

If you really did dose 5ml per day like your first posts say, then that is possible cause.
But if you're just saying you dosed 3ml to sound like you dosed less, then it could possibly make a product look more dangerous than it really is, due to misinformation.

Again, I'm in no way attacking you or framing you, I'm very sorry about your firsh loss, I know how much they mean to me.
I would just like correct information posted here so others can use factful information when deciding for or against excel.

I hope everything sorts out and you find something that works for you.

LOL Do you remember not that long ago when someone was accusing me of being a Seachem rep? LOL some people can't stand long running success with the Seachem line

 

[-Mak-]

It also seems some people are relating the effects of excel and fertilizer.

To be clear, Excel has nothing to do with fertilizer like regular flourish, Nilocg Thrive, Easy Green, etc. Excel contains one ingredient and one ingredient only, glutaraldehyde, a toxic chemical that is regulated and should not be handled.
Fertilizers are just a mix of common nutrient compounds (good all-in-one fertilizers contain 10+ nutrients), a few of which are edible, and are nearly impossible to overdose unless you accidentally dump/spill a massive amount into a tank. We handle these in the form of powders, salts, and garden fertilizer. There should really be no suspicion around the toxicity of a regular fertilizer.

Glutaraldehyde products, on the other hand... we really just need more conclusive studies and information on them.

 

[Thunder_o_b]

It also seems some people are relating the effects of excel and fertilizer.

To be clear, Excel has nothing to do with fertilizer like regular flourish, Nilocg Thrive, Easy Green, etc. Excel contains one ingredient and one ingredient only, glutaraldehyde, a toxic chemical that is regulated and should not be handled.
Fertilizers are just a mix of common nutrient compounds (good all-in-one fertilizers contain 10+ nutrients), a few of which are edible, and are nearly impossible to overdose unless you accidentally dump/spill a massive amount into a tank. We handle these in the form of powders, salts, and garden fertilizer. There should really be no suspicion around the toxicity of a regular fertilizer.

Glutaraldehyde products, on the other hand... we really just need more conclusive studies and information on them.

Yeah, some how the Excel part did not make it to my post. I corrected the typo.

 

[Maxxx]

I have some flame moss which was not growing properly. Went to store they advice flourish excel and told me if you don't want to add CO2 this would help your plants grow better. I have added them based on schedule. 2 fish died 3 days after adding this solution. I thought to myself maybe that is not the reason but still titred down and stopped to add it for a while out of fear of losing more. Then again for experiment I restarted adding and again then the next day 2 more died, I stopped completely. Looking around on yotube and forums everyone was happy with the results. I got stupid again and added just a capful (which is 5 ml) to my 30 gallon. Today I found another fish dead :| Honestly I now believe 100% that this stupid solution is causing my fish to die. I just wanted to tell other people to be cautious before adding this to your tank.

You are overdosing!!!! I just bought a bottle for my tank and it says on it 5ml for every 10 gallon for the FIRST dose, then 1ml per 10 gallon. This stuff is actually used in a different form to sterilize medical equipment. This is what is killing your fish! 15ml for a 30 gallon is 5 times the recommended dose! Considering this stuff is basically a poison it can and will kill fish. 3ml is the correct dose for your tank (according to my bottle). It is poison if in too high of a quantity but if in a lower amount it will kill off some algae and break down into CO2.

 

[goldface]

LOL Do you remember not that long ago when someone was accusing me of being a Seachem rep? LOL some people can't stand long running success with the Seachem line

Oh yeah, I remember him. For someone who claimed to not care, he made quite a huge fuss about it, like a angry man screaming how he's not really angry.