What are your thoughts on feeder fish?

[DaniosForever]

What do you guys think about feeder fish?

I hate the way they are treated and deserve a good life until they get fed

 

[Ghelfaire]

I feel the same way. If I ever needed feeder fish I would just breed my own because the store owned ones are unhealthy.
They can make good pets too but would definitely need to be treated for parasites/other diseases

 

[DaniosForever]

They deserve a good life until the time comes

 

[BlackOsprey]

Poorly raised and sickly food is a health risk. I have no qualms about live food, but I'll raise them myself if I'm using them.

 

[OtherRSBettas]

Since general feeder fish don't have much of a self conscience, I don't find it cruel to keep them in boring tanks until the time comes. They lack the knowledge that tells them they're in a sad, gross place, so it would be more for my own sake. I personally think it's even more sad to put them in a big, fancy tank because I feel worse about feeding them.

 

[Sokamix]

What do you guys think about feeder fish?

I hate the way they are treated and deserve a good life until they get fed

i feel the same to. they need to be treated well to be nutritious to the animal you are feeding. if the yare sick, they could also cause diseases for the animal eating them. same with feeder worms ect.

 

[aquanata]

I think you know my perspective, that feeder animals are necessary so long as we keep carnivorous animals that require them. Any animal we keep should, imo, be kept humanely. The argument for excellent animal keeping applies to any creature in our care, including fish.

It pains me to see fish kept poorly, whether feeder or those intended as companions. Large commercial fish breeders rarely if ever, to my knowledge, keep any of them in conditions we'd accept as humane from a hobbyist or private breeder perspective. The pet trade deals in dollars & cents, which to a certain degree includes at least keeping stock alive if not healthy or well kept, but always it comes down to profit. Too, they accept a certain amount of 'loss' when calculating costs & profits, hence bettas in cups, goldies stuffed in small tanks, puffers housed cheek by jowl & guppies shipped together in masses regardless of gender. So long as hobbyists keep animals & it's profitable, the trade is unlikely to recognize quality of life as a tenet of its business.

Too, there's always contention when it comes to defining what is 'good' in animal keeping. Is it the 'good enough' of commercial trade that argues its care is only transitory or the 'good' of a hobbyist whose long term care, to another hobbyist or marine biologist, may be poor? There is no single standard & if there were, it would change. Standards in fishkeeping, whether of designated feeder animals, companion animals, commercial aquariums, etc... have changed significantly in a brief period. What was once considered excellent care is now recognized as very poor indeed. In 10 yrs, what we do now will likely be ajudged the same in many respects.

Every animal deserves a good life, in humane conditions. Unfortunately, those are not the premises upon which businesses operate or even what ultimately happens to many fish, feeder or companion once purchased. Forums like fishlore however, can be powerful resources for change amongst hobbyists who with increased knowledge, may put pressure on the pet trade to improve animal conditions.

It's a good question, with so many perspectives & issues to examine. It deserves a good think & I'm glad you posed it.

 

[SouthAmericanCichlids]

Since general feeder fish don't have much of a self conscience, I don't find it cruel to keep them in boring tanks until the time comes. They lack the knowledge that tells them they're in a sad, gross place, so it would be more for my own sake. I personally think it's even more sad to put them in a big, fancy tank because I feel worse about feeding them.

Regardless of a conscience, they do have pain receptors and can get sick, and often do in stores with small tanks and hundreds of fish. Along with being fed trashy food, like goldfish food that has next to no nutritional value. And as they aren't taking in any nutrients, they don't give any nutrients to the fish they're fed to. Along with this, any parasites or diseases would be spread to these fish.

Just curious, would you say other fish have "consciences?" Or rather a sense of quality of life. And general feeder fish are minnows, so would you say like a wcmm wouldn't either, as opposed to a tetra or cichlid?

 

[aquanata]

Since general feeder fish don't have much of a self conscience, I don't find it cruel to keep them in boring tanks until the time comes. They lack the knowledge that tells them they're in a sad, gross place, so it would be more for my own sake. I personally think it's even more sad to put them in a big, fancy tank because I feel worse about feeding them.

From a practical perspective, tank conditions for fish bred as feeders is not about consciousness, but about aggression, ammonia poisoning, starvation, uncontrolled reproduction, potential disease spread & casualties.

I find it disturbing that you appear to feel badly that a humanely kept fish may be fed to a carnivorous animal, preferring instead that
physical suffering pre-date its expiry.

 

[Debbie1986]

well, ethically it's no different than how we treat cows, chickens, pigs etc.

If i had to use them ( feeders) , it's best to keep them less stressed ( less disease) and moderately happy so that 'one bad day...' is all they have verses suffering day in and day out.

I hope the fish food I buy is ethically sourced. But just like my dog food, I look at the condition of my animals from it's intake to gauge the value since it is commercial.

Having to combat mystery illness in my 38 gallon tank that came out of no where last year and killed off half my bettas, it pretty shocking how fast stuff can go south.

technically, I had 'feeder ramshorns' for my crawfish for the 2 years I had him. He ate a few hundred usually before and after molting.

I never bonded to the snails , (unlike the 1 snail I had with my shrimps when I first start keeping shrimps), so I expect feeder fish are on the same level.

I used to watch a ton of homestead farming videos. The birds, etc all had a great life until that 'one bad day..' it's the reality of the food chain.

treat them the best you can, but you can't get emotionally invested because their purpose if something other than 'pet'

piglets are super cute, but do not get between me and bacon, won't end well... just saying

 

[GlennO]

I don't have an issue with it ethically but I wouldn't do it myself. You're playing Russian roulette. Sooner or later you'll be introducing a disease or parasites into your tank.

 

[aquanata]

I don't have an issue with it ethically but I wouldn't do it myself. You're playing Russian roulette. Sooner or later you'll be introducing a disease or parasites into your tank.

I think I've kept far different creatures than many here because when I think of feeder fish, I don't think of feeding them primarily to fish or of tank contamination. I think of feeding reptiles, amphibians & birds or of bait for fishing.

 

[KingOscar]

I've scooped wild fry out of my wetlands and dropped them into my tank for my "pet" fish to eat. Watching the fry dart around in a new, completely unknown environment while frantically searching for cover and safety seemed quite cruel to me. Not at all like in nature where the prey fish at least know their way around and have a fighting chance. I quickly decided that doing this is cruel.

Is my fish food derived from cruelty also? Likely... but at least I don't have to see it or know about it. The entire meat industry is sustained with this model. It's just one of the reasons why my wife and I opted out of being part of it.

 

[jaysurf7]

I actually knew some people that brought feeder fish and kept them as pets in their tanks. And they did just as well as any other fish in the tank.
I mean after all there still fish who got labeled as feeder fish, in the correct water conditions they could the same as any other fish you put in your tank from what I've noticed.

 

[SparkyJones]

I've kept feeder fish when I was doing a predator tank many years ago, ethically I have no real problem with it.
In general feeders are low quality fish, not fit for market that reproduce fast. They would be considered culls for breeders and farms if there were no use for them at all.

When I did it i was buying what i needed for a couple days or a week and finding out there was some risk of disease and spread to my fish. Shortly after figuring that out I was buying in bulk and holding them for months, feeding them, monitoring health for disease and feeding them and rotating tanks for holding them when I renewed so that they could sit in quarantine for two weeks before entering my tanks. Keeping my own supply on hand having to go and re-up like every 3 months.

My fish ate, I believe they were cared for until they were fed, and it limited the chanced of introducing diseases. The problem... the predator type fish wouldn't eat anything else, and they keep growing, outgrowing feeder guppies,but too small for feeder goldfish, then too big for feeder gold fish.
There were times the predators wouldn't eat because the size of the feeder was just too wrong, and I'd have to return well cared for fish for nothing, and spend on whatever was in that window size that they would eat, tetras, barbs, minnows, danios, whatever was the right size and cheap, but then it was difficult to keep a handle over disease risk reduction.

Overall, it was a hassle and annoying and the idea of keeping carnivore predator fish grew real old, real fast, and costly when I needed larger feeders than feeder goldfish that I'd grown out for 3 months. At that point I surrendered my predator fish and gave up on keeping them rather than trying to get shiners all the time at the bait store to avoid the costs of non-cull decent sized aquarium fish.

I don't have a problem with feeder fish, absolutely they overcrowd the feeder tanks and likely underfeed them, but they would be considered culls of no value or use and would be destroyed otherwise. They do have a use, and it's natural for a fish to eat another fish. I think the thought that they are low nutritional value If fed directly from the petstore is correct thinking, and risky using them immediately and possibly introducing disease or parasites. But I think that when I did it, I did the best I could for them and my fish that were eating them. But in the end I wouldn't do it again, too much extra hassle, work and cost. I'd rather keep easier fish that aren't a constant headache and money pit.

I see them the same as other live feeders though, it's all living things but that's the foods fish eat and some fish just won't touch flakes or pellets at all. Worms deserve more than a cup of dirt, brine shrimp deserve more than a million in a liter of water. Ect. In the end food is food to me.

 

[jaysurf7]

i do agree also that even feeder fish should be kept in clean humane conditions, some of those tanks I've noticed at some stores were absolutely filthy, even though they are going to be sold as food for other fish doesn't mean the conditions have to be like that.
Not great for the fish that's going to eat that coming from conditions in tanks like that also.

 

[DanPlanted]

I was just thinking about this. Here's my opinion. Live food or any food with little or zero processing is probably the best option we have. Just in general, for feeding fish, humans, etc. Pretty much any fish food has fish meal in it, so all your doing by not feeding live fish is shifting the "death" of fish from your tank to a factory. There's nothing wrong with killing other animals for food, that's just what's natural. Plus, when we start adding tons of processing we add on environmental and health problems.

Now the other question is what is actually the best diet for what you're trying to feed. What does it eat in nature? What does science tell us about the best nutrition sources for it?

Maybe the fish a lot of insects in the wild and don't eat any other fish at all. Well, that's why we are seeing a trend for more insect-based fish foods. Aqueon is in the process of launching a 100% fish-free food right now, made at the same factory as bug bites which have some fish product I believe.

 

[DaniosForever]

There's nothing wrong with killing other animals for food

Its not wrong its the way the fish are treated before being fed. They are stuffed in over populated tanks like the ones in petco and petsmart and do not have a good life.

 

[aquanata]

Its not wrong its the way the fish are treated before being fed. They are stuffed in over populated tanks like the ones in petco and petsmart and do not have a good life.

The thing is that big box & LFS are the very end of the supply chain. There's *a lot* of layers in the pet trade whether the animal is intended for live feeding, companion, fish meal or something else.

We'd have to define 'a good life' to make it appear in the pet trade & can you imagine the costs to consumers, depending on that definition? Many animal keepers would be driven out of their hobby, maybe not a bad thing. Minnows, goldies & other animals now kept in crowded vast tanks would be kept - how many per square foot by type do you think? What should the rules be for water & food quality? Temps? Shipping practices? Inspections & enforcement should be carried out how often & by what agency? Should the rules be different for those bred for processed foods as opposed to live feeding or bait? Different for what the public sees in stores versus the supply chain? It's an enormous task encompassing not just the lives of feeder fish, but all trade animals.

It's not just about the last step either, the one we see most often, at the LFS or big box store. Is it ok for the trade to remain as is, except for the part we see at the store? It's a lot to think long & hard about. After all, we haven't solved the 'good life' question for humans yet either. We need thinkers *and* doers.

Certainly, stores & corporations want to present a good front to their customers. Customers unhappy enough about betta cups & stuffed goldie tanks, can shut down a location, if not a large corporation, over cruelty issues. But the supply chain remains & will remain outside of a world wide decision to no longer keep captive animals.

We can change things tho. I'm seeing in my life time cultural shifts towards more humane animal keeping expectations. More who know betta & goldies don't go in bowls, more who raise their own live food & buy from ethical breeders instead of big box stores. That education is key to positive cultural shifts.

As I said, we need thinkers *and* doers. I keep responding to this thread because clearly you care & it seems are passionate about how fish are kept in the trade. You could be one of those thinkers whose outside the box creativity unlocks solutions.

 

[Azedenkae]

I think feeder fish is fine, to each their own.

 

[BPSabelhaus]

What do you guys think about feeder fish?

I hate the way they are treated and deserve a good life until they get fed

The two don’t need to be separate. In fact, your feeders should be the healthiest fish you own. I treat my feeders (Dubia roaches) like royalty because I’m feeding them to my little Princess.

 

[DaniosForever]

The first mistake people are making is using goldfish as feeders because they have a huge bioload and hundreds get stuffed into a 55 gallon tank. Rosy minnows are a way better option but either way they both need a good life

 

[BPSabelhaus]

I could see the occasional live goldfish for a large fish (arowana for example) or turtle as an enrichment for a diet of mostly fish filets. Minnows might be a bit small to elicit a feeding response in some cases. But again, we needn’t breed them in the numbers we do. Maybe collecting the eggs for use as feeders would be a better use.

 

[KadenSlone04]

I don't own predatory (fish-eating fish), but my stance on it would be to breed strains of live-bearing fish, and then feed the culls to the predatory fish and allow the desired livebearers to continue breeding.

 

[Fishfur]

The first mistake people are making is using goldfish as feeders because they have a huge bioload and hundreds get stuffed into a 55 gallon tank. Rosy minnows are a way better option but either way they both need a good life

All true but there is yet another downside to using certain species as feeders that has nothing to do with how anyone feels about the practice.

The carp family (including fathead minnows) happen to be among the many fish that contain an enzyme called thiaminase.

It destroys thiamine, aka Vitamin B1, which is critically important for normal neurological & cardiac function.

Any animal, including humans, that consumes so much thiaminase containing fish that they become depleted of thiamine can experience effects which can range from mild to fatal.

Treatment is simple enough but must begin in time to be successful. First step is to stop consuming the source(s) of thiaminase and the second step is to supplement heavily with thiamine. Then hopefully all goes back to normal.

Piscivorous species in the wild whose usual assortment of prey has become severely limited due to human fishing activity face severe consequences when the only prey left are full of thiaminase.

If you feed only goldfish or minnows to piscivorous species they will get into trouble and may die but if they get enough fish that don’t contain it along with those that do, no worries.

It is believed that guppies and their relatives don’t contain thiaminase so they can balance out fish that do contain it or replace them.

Of popular fish for human consumption, tuna, catfish, herring, most shrimp & a host of others contain thiaminase. Freezing doesn’t stop its activity although cooking does.

All the Salmonids & tilapia, among others, do not contain thiaminase and there is a useful list of fish known to contain or not contain at the link below. But a great many species have never been tested for it.

All About Thiaminase

 

[LightBrownPillow]

Any animals kept by humans (and thus entirely dependent on us for their welfare) deserve good care and a reasonably comfortable life, however long that may be. That means providing breeding populations with good water quality, healthy food, and enough space for their needs, and the same goes for the predatory fish we give live feed too. It's pretty sad how the pursuit of ever-bigger profits gets divorced from respecting the lives under human care.

 

[Fishfur]

Any animals kept by humans (and thus entirely dependent on us for their welfare) deserve good care and a reasonably comfortable life, however long that may be. That means providing breeding populations with good water quality, healthy food, and enough space for their needs, and the same goes for the predatory fish we give live feed too. It's pretty sad how the pursuit of ever-bigger profits gets divorced from respecting the lives under human care.

It certainly is.

 

[chromedome52]

I come at this question from a slightly skewed perspective. Most of the time I was breeding fish that were too small to eat feeders. I have never used Goldfish or "Roseyreds" as feeders. They are usually kept in poor, crowded conditions, where it is too easy for diseases to spread. I have used bait minnows on rare occasions (collected by me), but only when absolutely necessary (such as the time I was keeping a young Arapaima). Catching mine from the wild was actually less risky. And cheaper. I bred Oscars without feeding them a single fish, because they are not piscivores. Published analysis of their stomach contents showed less than 10% fish. Mostly it was insects (crickets), crabs, crayfish, and molluscs (snails). All of those things have shells, and Oscars have evolved very strong pharyngeal bones/teeth to deal with that.

The only strictly piscivorous fishes I've ever seen in the hobby were Freshwater Garfish, Xenentodon cancila. Even the fry would only eat other fish fry. Most of the fish that are given feeders are predators, but not strictly piscivores. I've kept a few Pike Cichlid species. They seem to have a preference for Cichlid fry, IME. Convicts are easy to provide. But they will readily take anything that provides protein, and they can be trained to eat even pellets. I have used excess livebearers to feed Belonesox, Pike Livebearers. Just seemed appropriate.

So in my general opinion, do more research on your fish, use any feeders sparingly, and don't use commercial feeder fish.