Using Potassium Permanganate

coralbandit

There is lots of info on using potassium permanganate out there and I encourage all interested in trying this product to do as much research as possible.
I usually refer to 4 different links to describe what it is , how ,why and what I use it for .
The link for mixing is no longer available was originally found on BIDKA[ British International Discus Keeper Association ] if you all want to look for it ?

So it is simple and if you choose there may be other methods to make the solution you will use.One link I listed has a mix but if possible stick with mine .
You can math this out how you want but to get your stock solution you mix 75 grams of the powder with 1,000 ml water. If you have purified water [RO] use it . As I said you can math down however you want 1,000 ml is more then a pond keeper will need. So 7.5 grams to 100ml is fine also .
Once you have that mix ratio made you need 2 drops of the solution per gallon of aquarium to acheive the 2ppm treatment level. 1 drop per gallon equals 1ppm .EASY MATH .
It is important you read all the links .
All the info for safe and practical treatment is provided.
THIS IS NOT FOR EVERYONE ! It is not a short cut and there are real risk using this product.
Each link has warnings in them that should be heeded.
I am more then happy to answer questions for anyone who wants ,but lets try to make them ones that are not answered in the links ! YOU GOT TO READ THEM ALL IF YOU WANT TO PLAY !
This stuff is to serious to not read all the info.
So if you make it past that scare tactics I use and the ones that start a couple of the links and read all and learn about this product things that most struggle with disease wise will be made much easier for you. This is not so much for those with one small tank as much as multiple tanks or fish rooms ..
The applications for this product are so diverse that I use it when my tanks are healthy not just to cure issues ! Unlike many other 'medicines' this product will not treat one single thing .
It kills what you dose it strong enough to . A pathogen/parasite ,snail ,your fish . It kills .The beauty is you can measure proper application amount and with careful experiments/experience you can learn to confidently use it just like dechlorinator .
DeniseF ,richsfishes
 
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Ravynn

This is really great information with lots of medications being phased out in Canada. Thank you!
 

bitseriously

This is really great information with lots of medications being phased out in Canada. Thank you!
I agree, but I think potassium permanganate is one of the more controlled products. If you have a link or a supplier up here, would you share, please?
 

coralbandit

In the US it is sold at hardware stores to clean water softeners /iron filters I believe ?
Got Lowes or HD ?
 

Ravynn

I agree, but I think potassium permanganate is one of the more controlled products. If you have a link or a supplier up here, would you share, please?


Ships from Quebec.
 

bitseriously

In the US it is sold at hardware stores to clean water softeners /iron filters I believe ?
Got Lowes or HD ?
Pp is classified as antibiotic, along with other basics like meth blue. Sellers like ravynn linked to are likely not compliant w federal regs (I believe). Won’t stop me from giving them my business though.
 

Ravynn

Pp is classified as antibiotic, along with other basics like meth blue. Sellers like ravynn linked to are likely not compliant w federal regs (I believe). Won’t stop me from giving them my business though.

Yes, I planned on getting some before I can't find it anywhere.. it's cheap compared to some meds in stores. I'm curious though, you said methylene blue is classified as an antibiotic. Does that mean products with that in it are being phased out here as well?
 

bitseriously

Yes, I planned on getting some before I can't find it anywhere.. it's cheap compared to some meds in stores. I'm curious though, you said methylene blue is classified as an antibiotic. Does that mean products with that in it are being phased out here as well?
Yep, have been for a while. I have family is US who travel up here a couple times per year, and they’ve become my fish med bootleggers.
 

DeniseF

If you have meds in the tank first, should you do a water change to remove the meds and then do PP then change again?

Also, do you remove the filter/air sponges?
 
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coralbandit

You don't have to remove sponge if you can take bio out .
If your treating for disease leave it in and watch for minI cycle.
I think I would want meds out but no sure it is necessary .The treatment time will not be long ,4 hours tops .
Once you have read all this and feel confident I recommend you try it in the tank you risk the least with .
Go 1/2 dose which is 1ppm or 1 drop per gallon and keep an eye on the time .
A clean tank getting the 2ppm therapeutic dose should stay purple for 4 hours .Even after I have done my routine water changes I have seen the color change in 2 hours .It truly test and indicates organics in the water our API test never come close to showing !
I don't think any of you will see close to 4 hours . My guess is with test of 1 drop you will loose purple in under 1/2 hour .If so you have installed safely for your first time .If your fish flip out add 1ml H2O2 and then change water .This should not happen with the mix and procedure I am recommending. I made all the mistakes ..This is how I start on a new tank still today.
You need to understand to learn and gain confidence. You wouldn't drink a whole bottle of vodka first time ?
If it changes color quickly you can dose again [1 time] . The light dose is just a safe way to get familiar .Unlike meds it does do something and the change in color indicates it is exhausted unlike a med that in low dose would be ineffective. So even your first low dose counts and helps .
For illness I would treat every other day for 3 treatments max in 1 week.
For therapeutic 1 time a week is wonderful and easy when done before water change.
 

DeniseF

So, a couple of questions:

As a visual, your water should be a light pink colour?

It says it will kill snails, would you recommend removing the dead ones after the treatment, or if you have snail eating fish like My Clown Loaches, is it ok to leave them in to eat them?
 
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coralbandit

Pink is good !
Not sure on snails ?
 

DeniseF

Just wanted to give a big Thumbs up for @coralbandits PP thread. I followed the instructions and successfully did my first PP tank clean.
 

coralbandit

Just wanted to give a big Thumbs up for @coralbandits PP thread. I followed the instructions and successfully did my first PP tank clean.
That's fantastic ! I will say people who do this are as common as people who breed rams maybe !
You need to be pretty serious about it ,but once you grasp it you will use like dechlorinator. Properly and with confidence .
 

AquaticJ

Would 98.3% reagent grade PP be good to use? I found that on ebay
 

coralbandit

Should be no problem .
as long as the filler is 'safe ' which seems silly to say .
 

AquaticJ

It mentions treating fish in the description, so I think it should be okay then
 

jmaldo

Thanks! coralbandit
 

coralbandit

The whole Discus gang should read this and be ready ..
Thanks! coralbandit
The real beauty is it is healthy to use when your fish are healthy so some make it a regular practice like water changes !
 

fa4960

So that was a nice read / re-read of some very informative posts. Appreciate the effort coralbandit

Just ordered 1 kg of the stuff and should get it latest on Saturday, leaves me time to get some gloves and eye protection.

Except for the currently sick fish I have, the preventive use is very interesting. I from time to time see my fish rub against leaves due to flukes etc. and it would be nice to treat them mildly also without having to do QT when it is late / too late.

If I don't want to risk a minI cycle I can disconnect my sump for the duration of the treatment and just use a powerhead in the tank to circulate the water. Only thing I don't find discussed too much in the links is the impact on plants?
 

coralbandit

I unfortunately am not the planted tank guy so can't speak to its effect on plants .
I am almost positive there are applications to rid pest from plants just like alum ,but not sure if it is the same as for fish disease..
The beauty of this tool is you can adjust the strength you use it at , so it is possible for plants it is a much lower dose ?
A guess from me would say it is about the same since most would want to kill snails [ a large form of life so stronger dose?]..
 

mbkemp

I have used it in a planted tank. It was not brutal to the plants. It will overwhelm the system with potassium if you don’t adjust
 

fa4960

I have used it in a planted tank. It was not brutal to the plants. It will overwhelm the system with potassium if you don’t adjust

Sorry, but I don't see how the recommended dose of 2 ppm PP will overwhelm the system with potassium?

At 2 ppm I have added 2 g of KMNo4 to 1000 liters of tank water. In terms of mass % K is 25% of the total mass according to , in other words I have added 0.5g of K to the tank. I highly expect that the K is used in the PP process but if we for arguments sake assume that no K is used and it all stays in the tank then the 0.5g K is equal to 0.1 ppm potassium added in my 1000 liters. This will hardly overwhelm a system that I weekly dose with 9 ppm potassium, not even considering that I do the WC right after the PP has turned from pink to brown and hence remove much of the potassium as well as whatever else nutrition I have in excess.
 
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86 ssinit

Well because of plants,mts snails and cherry shrimp. I could not attempt this on any of my tanks. But would like to try it on a get tank. Think if done correctly this is a must for a qt tank. Thanks for the info. Good reading!
 

jmaldo

I mentioned in another thread I was going to treat some plants I just received. They are still in a quarantine bucket. Before I started I took a look and lo-behold I found about 6 baby snails.
Thanks 86 ssinit LOL
So, this is not a scientific test but I want to see the effect on plants and now snails. Since the plants will eventually be going in the "Discus" tank - no snails allowed right now.
During research at a 4ppm it was mentioned it should not harm the plants and would kill anything.
First pic is the original clean bucket the plants were quarantined in. Just about 1/3 of a gallon of tank water.



Second pic is right after the 4ppm treatment.



Last pic is the PP depleted after 2.5 - 3 hours.



Will do a water change and monitor.

Let's see what happens to the plants and snails?

Also, plan on doing the first treatment of PP on the 10 gallon QT tanks holding 12 Silver Hatchetfish. But only at 1ppm.
Did a 50% w/c on it today. Tomorrow I will unplug the filter and give it a go.
Will post pics.

Thanks Again!
coralbandit
 
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86 ssinit

Oh yeah I do have some snails in my tanks sorry. Had them for so long I don’t think about them. So how did it work out? Did it kill the snails? How do the plants look?
 
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jmaldo

So how did it work out? Did it kill the snails? How do the plants look?

It went well, did find about a dozen snails on the bottom of the bucket vs crawling on the sides. None were moving, so appears the treatment did it's job.
The plants look a little less vibrant. Time will tell they went into the 10 gallon after the treatment.
I did do the 1ppm treatment on the 10 gallon with the Hatchets. Dosing was 9 drops of the solution I mixed up per coralbandit recipe. It changed the water to a purple/pink color but within a 1/2 hour it slowly changed to the amber color. Then decided to do a 50% w/c.
So I have some Questions:
Was the 1ppm dose not strong enough?
The tank just did not have a lot of stuff to react with? (since I did a w/c yesterday, and has a very light bio load to begin with)
Could it be there might still be some Prime left over from the w/c yesterday? Which negated its strength.

Should I dose again.

Learning all the Time.
 

coralbandit

IMO the lite dose is cause of short exposure time ..
I found dosing dirty tanks much safer then clean tanks ! With less organics and such the PP works on other things . If not dosed correctly it can be a more serious issue in clean water then dirty ..That is why I say leave wood in and such ..Its a sponge yes but the line between safe and overdosing can be how clean your water was before you started ..
IMO the prime was not a factor ..Next time just for fun add 1 or 2 drops per g and then add prime or H2O2 and watch how fast it clears ..Minutes , like 2-3 ..
4 ppm may be over the limit for snails or possibly the exposure time was the deciding factor ? I am also not sure on how long people use it to dip plants ..I was always under the impression that Alum worked best on plants and snails ?
You can re dose safely once if you like according to all links . I have before .
This is why it is good to practice with this product .
Interested in seeing how the plants pull through ..I have definitely killed plants when I OD tanks with PP as a sterilizer ..I turn tanks black for days !
 

jmaldo

You can re dose safely once if you like according to all links . I have before .
This is why it is good to practice with this product .

Ok, then I will try again next Sat before the normal w/c. Practice makes perfect.

Thanks
 

BarbaraLocke

I mentioned in another thread I was going to treat some plants I just received. They are still in a quarantine bucket. Before I started I took a look and lo-behold I found about 6 baby snails.
Thanks 86 ssinit LOL
So, this is not a scientific test but I want to see the effect on plants and now snails. Since the plants will eventually be going in the "Discus" tank - no snails allowed right now.
During research at a 4ppm it was mentioned it should not harm the plants and would kill anything.
First pic is the original clean bucket the plants were quarantined in. Just about 1/3 of a gallon of tank water.



Second pic is right after the 4ppm treatment.



Last pic is the PP depleted after 2.5 - 3 hours.



Will do a water change and monitor.

Let's see what happens to the plants and snails?

Also, plan on doing the first treatment of PP on the 10 gallon QT tanks holding 12 Silver Hatchetfish. But only at 1ppm.
Did a 50% w/c on it today. Tomorrow I will unplug the filter and give it a go.
Will post pics.

Thanks Again!
coralbandit
This is a very interesting subject! Thanks jmaldo for sharing your experiment with us!
 

DarkOne

I've been following along quitely and decided to order some PP off eBay a few days ago. I got 4 4oz bottles for $17 shipped and it was just delivered today.

I read all the links and this thread but I still have a few questions....

1) After you mix 100ml/7.5g, can you keep it in a bottle or do you mix a new batch every time you need to use it?
2) I might've missed this but for those with plants, how was the end result?
3) How does this affect plecos and corydoras?

Thanks!
 

coralbandit

You can keep the solution for a year easy .
Cool and dark is best like everything else for storage ..
Just start on low dose like 1 or 2 ppm[drops per gallon] .
Everyone should watch it safely as they learn .
My understanding is there is no 'sensitive fish' to this product .It could kill them all if not used proper !
I have become super comfortable and feel more efficient doing my treatments before water changes as stated before ..Just makes sense to me .
 

jmaldo

Ok, then I will try again next Sat before the normal w/c.

Oops!
Water change today. Forgot all about trying it again. Next Sat. if I remember.

I might've missed this but for those with plants, how was the end result?

As mentioned I tried it a 4ppm treatment to ensure no snails. So far no snails and the plants are alive at this point, "Time will Tell".

Hey coralbandit
Setting up the "new" 29 gallon for the "Discus' tomorrow.
I think I remember you use it when starting up a new tank?
 
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coralbandit

Hey coralbandit
Setting up the "new" 29 gallon for the "Discus' tomorrow.
I think I remember you use it when starting up a new tank?[/QUOTE]

I use it to sterilize a tank that had other fish in it not new new ..
I turn tanks black [severe overdose] when switching things up just to make sure all is well. I let them soak for a day or more and they stay black the whole time !
 

jmaldo

Duh! I forgot to post a pic of the 10 gallon PP treatment 1ppm from previous post #27.
You can see the light pink color.

 

DarkOne

I just tried it on a 20 gallon long I'm getting ready for a cory growout tank. I had some guppies in there. I did a 25% change mostly to get the mulm out of the tank first. I did 2 drops per gallon and changed 75% after 4 hrs. The water was a light pink when I changed. It did not affect the few limpets that were in the tank. I might move the guppies and try again.
 

Elkwatcher

Potassium Permanganate was a go to disease cure that I remember as a child with my grandmother breeding and raising tropicals. She used to do fish dips adding enough to colour the water not too dark and watched the fish until they showed any signs of discomfort then they went back into the tank. I still have her bottle of permanganate, it was kept in dark glass so no light could get to it. The article below alerts that you can cause gill damage with overuse. I've also read that it is considered a carcinogenic so use it with care.
 

jmaldo

Well, I did it?
Decided to give the 29 gallon with #6-7 along with some EBAs and Bolivians a "PP" treatment today before the normal water change. Boy was I nervous .
All went well. I was so preoccupied with watching the fish for any signs of distress (H2O2 at the ready). I did not get any pics.
Maybe next time.
I followed coralbandit treatment of "2 drops of the solution per gallon of aquarium water to achieve the 2ppm treatment level.
Turned off the canister and turned up the bubblers, the water eventually turned a dark purple. I could still see the fish. Over the course of an hour I watched the fish intently as the color slowly lightened up to a pink then to an amber.
Then started to drain. I drained about half then filled back up with aged water then drained again about 20g. Filled again with aged water. And as mentioned by others the water was so clear it was unreal. And everyone is doing fine. In fact they just got fed.
Whew!
 

fa4960

Good job jmaldo

I think the addition of an airstone is quite essential, or at least it will be for me next time....

I did a double PP treatment this weekend before WC. Basically I added 2 ppm first. It had turned amber after app. 1 hour and all fish looked good, albeit not too happy with my actions so all hiding under the wood branch. For the first time I then decided to repeat the treatment so I added another 2 ppm. No airstone, just a powerhead to distribute the PP all over the tank. After another hour it started to turn amber but still had a pink tint to it and I decided it was enough for this time so I added H2O2 to stop the process. Before the water turned completely clear disaster struck in form of a power cut. So now no circulation and still some PP present in the tank. Fish were gasping for air after a while but fortunately only one was down on its side and looked "shocked" but most likely just oxygen depleted. I scared it up again and nothing else happen the next 30 mins before the power came back - just all fish standing absolutely still and not moving at all, again I think they tried to utilise the little oxygen available to just stand upright. I started the WC during the powercut but with no power on the water pump the water only ran at maybe 25% of normal pressure but I think still better than nothing....

Although we don't have frequent power cuts it happens a few times a year so I think I better get a battery powered air pump for this purpose. Also, with my temperature being around 31 C / 88 F there is already less oxygen available from the start and I think the PP process depletes some oxygen also. Hence going forward I will add two air stones while doing the PP treatment, one of them being battery powered.

In the end nothing serious happened but it was quite close, and could have been worse if the H2O2 hadn't been able to mostly stop the PP process before the power cut. I take it as another warning that although PP seems to be able to help in many ways it should never be taken lightly.....
 

86 ssinit

Wow you got very lucky. May pay to have a gas generator available. I do have one in case of emergency.
 

fa4960

Would be an option but mostly our power cuts are at night during rain storms etc. so before noticing, then getting up and getting a gas generator started electricity would in many cases probably be back again. I do run air stones in the sump return chamber at night so the return water has been stirred somewhat before entering the tank. If I had a fish room with many tanks I would probably look into getting a gas generator but since I don't plan to expand beyond my 2 tanks I will keep it as is - with the addition of a battery powered air pump for emergency cases.
 

Cale24

This is a great thread and has been helpful to read through. I have both PP and H202 on hand, and have done a fair amount of research on both, but am still unsure which to use when, given they are both oxidants and have similar benefits.
As I understand, PP has other health benefits for fish (as listed in the Koi related link ) primarily in the form of manganese and seems the primary benefit?

I have two general issues to deal with, one planted tank with some green hair algae (quite mild) which I could treat with either PP or H202 at prescribed doses. Fish are in the tank.

Next, I drained my community tank after mysteriously losing fish despite consistent, good water parameters. It was partially planted with 3 inches of gravel as substrate, with root tabs. I did the usual gravel vacs once a month, but someone suggested anaerobic gasses being an issue and that I should remove and bleach the gravel. I'll be disinfecting the entire, empty tank, so was going to do a round of 20% bleach, followed up by a heavy PP or H202 dose and then a few 100% WC. The tank had been running around 4 years and I've never removed and bleached gravel in my life. It was suggested to me to try do this once a year? I also had to deal with dreaded callamanus works (with Levamisole) a few months ago and at that time did the massive cleaning routine needed). Things went fine and all seemed well afterward, so given the gravel was thoroughly cleaned at that time, I'm all the more surprised it could be anaerobic. Parameters were always on track in testing afterward.

Some backdrop info:
As to the fish dying - zero visible symptoms. A mystery illness. Eating well and behaving totally normally, then suddenly unwell and less movement, and dead the next day. Never seen anything kill a visibly healthy fish so fast in an established, well maintained tank in my life, all the while other fish seemed (and remain) visibly fine.
Two of the fish that were moved to a different tank (heavily planted, ADA substrate, stable and healthy) went the same way 3 weeks later, one lasting 3 days, the other 2. No external symptoms. Wondering if it could be Fish 'TB' although no bent spines or sunken bellies, etc. My two swordtails showed some fraying on fins (again indicative of something bacterial) and lasted a few days before dying. I have been treating any symptomatic fish with Kanaplex (no improvement), and now Neoplex and Paraguard (minor improvement and will do another round of Neo).

Don't want to derail this thread into a disease related focus, but the topic of 'killing bad things I'm unsure about' led to research on PP and H202. Also have a UV steriliser on the way and that should help as a follow-up to any kind of treatment I'll do.
Any feedback appreciated.
 
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fa4960

I have two general issues to deal with, one planted tank with some green hair algae (quite mild) which I could treat with either PP or H202 at prescribed doses. Fish are in the tank.

The 2 ppm PP treatments just before WC I have done so far have done nothing in terms of killing off the green hair algae so I don't think PP will help you there unless maybe if you dip plants and ornaments in a much stronger e.g. 16 ppm solution for a while (but don't know how much plants can manage). H2O2 sprayed directly on the algae via a syringe with or without a length of airline tube on the end might be a better solution. Also you won't need to do a WC after H2O2 as it decomposes into H2O + O (Another reason to keep the lid on your H2O2 bottle tight or you are adding water to water )
 

jmaldo

As mentioned in post #25. I tried the 4ppm treatment of "PP" on plants. It did kill the pest snails attached but disappointed to report they never really thrived/grew much. Some melted. I still have a bunch attached to driftwood. Not really sure if it was the treatment affecting them or not.
Learning all the time.
 

Cale24

The 2 ppm PP treatments just before WC I have done so far have done nothing in terms of killing off the green hair algae so I don't think PP will help you there unless maybe if you dip plants and ornaments in a much stronger e.g. 16 ppm solution for a while (but don't know how much plants can manage). H2O2 sprayed directly on the algae via a syringe with or without a length of airline tube on the end might be a better solution. Also you won't need to do a WC after H2O2 as it decomposes into H2O + O (Another reason to keep the lid on your H2O2 bottle tight or you are adding water to water )

Hmmm ok thanks - I'll try H202 for that then!

As mentioned in post #25. I tried the 4ppm treatment of "PP" on plants. It did kill the pest snails attached but disappointed to report they never really thrived/grew much. Some melted. I do have a bunch attached to driftwood. Not really sure if it was the treatment affecting them or not.
Learning all the time.

Thanks I saw yeah - I have fish in the tank though so a slightly different approach needed. I'll give H202 a go, followed by a run with the UV steriliser for a while and hopefully that sorts it out.
 
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mattgirl

Very interesting thread. I keep seeing PP mentioned. Now I kinda know something about its uses.
 

86 ssinit

Cale anaerobic gases usually come with sand substrate. I have gravel in all tanks and have never had a problem. Uv sterilizer is a very good choice. I have one in my 90 after a similar accuracy. Thing is how olds are your fish?

Since your tank is planted and your worried about substrate releasing gasses there are 2 things I can think of to do. 1 vacuume weekly at every water change. Do a different section of the tank at every water change. 2 get mts snails. Sounds drastic but mts live in your substrate and eat whatever is in it and are constantly moving it. Even in big numbers they add little to the waste load. They don’t eat plants but do eat algae. Also with all there substrate movement they are beneficial to plant growth.

Unforunatly with mts the pp treatment can’t be done. It will kill snails. I have bought the pp but have not used it. I’m not one to use meds and pp is even more than a medication.

Also h2o2 will kill your hair algae. Dip the plants or whatever into it. Plants for 3 min anything else for 5 rinse and put back in. Than use an algaecide like excel or apI co2 booster to keep it away. Takes longer but either of the algaecide will kill off the hair algae in a few weeks. Another thing is shrimp. They will eat hairalgae. Another creature I keep in my tanks.

Hope some of this helps. Another thing is fish do die. People think that something is wrong but fish sometimes just die.
 

coralbandit

Some backdrop info:
As to the fish dying - zero visible symptoms. A mystery illness. Eating well and behaving totally normally, then suddenly unwell and less movement, and dead the next day. Never seen anything kill a visibly healthy fish so fast in an established, well maintained tank in my life, all the while other fish seemed (and remain) visibly fine.
Two of the fish that were moved to a different tank (heavily planted, ADA substrate, stable and healthy) went the same way 3 weeks later, one lasting 3 days, the other 2. No external symptoms. Wondering if it could be Fish 'TB' although no bent spines or sunken bellies, etc. My two swordtails showed some fraying on fins (again indicative of something bacterial) and lasted a few days before dying. I have been treating any symptomatic fish with Kanaplex (no improvement), and now Neoplex and Paraguard (minor improvement and will do another round of Neo).

Don't want to derail this thread into a disease related focus, but the topic of 'killing bad things I'm unsure about' led to research on PP and H202. Also have a UV steriliser on the way and that should help as a follow-up to any kind of treatment I'll do.
Any feedback appreciated.

That was what my columnaris experience 7-9 years ago was like .1 day fish was fine next I knew it was on 24 hour watch ! This was my first experience with PP !
I will never waste money on the antibiotic cocktails again .Firstly because they only work if the fish can heal itself and I don't believe for one second they can just kill the disease??
PP kills the issue ,maybe a weak fish you missed too ! It is how I 'cured' columnaris ..I only needed to euthan any visibly infected fish ,treat 2 times at 4ppm maybe 2 days apart and done ..I kept the fish that were infected for over 8 months without any other losses before just euthing the whole tank ...
It worked and is the only thing that ever worked for me ..
The symptoms your fish are displaying is type 4 columnaris ...
Sending you a pm as some of my best info is not allowed to be posted ..
 

LDan

Pardon me for butting in but I've been watching and learning a lot from this thread! coralbandit , would you pm me that info also? Just in case I ever come across something like what Cale24 is experiencing.
 

jmaldo

coralbandit pm me the info also.
 

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