Oto Swim bladder issue?

[FishSupreme]

Tank
What is the water volume of the tank? 10 gallons
How long has the tank been running? Two years
Does it have a filter? yes
Does it have a heater? no
What is the water temperature? 73 degrees
What is the entire stocking of this tank? (Please list all fish and inverts.) Cherry shrimp, Ramshorn snails, and 3 Otos

Maintenance
How often do you change the water? weekly
How much of the water do you change? 30%
What do you use to treat your water? Seachem Prime
Do you vacuum the substrate or just the water? I have sand substrate I do vacuum the surface

*Parameters - Very Important
Did you cycle your tank before adding fish? yes
What do you use to test the water? Api liquid tests
What are your parameters? We need to know the exact numbers, not just “fine” or “safe”.
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 10-20
pH: 7.2

Feeding
How often do you feed your fish? every day
How much do you feed your fish? 2 cucumber slices or Some Repashy Soilent Green gel
What brand of food do you feed your fish? Repashy Soilent Green
Do you feed frozen or freeze-dried foods? Does Repashy count?

Illness & Symptoms
How long have you had this fish? a year
How long ago did you first notice these symptoms? two days ago
In a few words, can you explain the symptoms? Some loss of appetite. Maybe buoyancy problems
Have you started any treatment for the illness? no
Was your fish physically ill or injured upon purchase? no
How has its behavior and appearance changed, if at all? It's not gravitating towards the cucumber like it used to.

Explain your emergency situation in detail.
My Oto was doing fine and eating his cucumbers, but one day I forgot to give prepare something because of a big test. I know that's negligence, but after that day on the next when I put in cucumber he just wasn't feeding on them. He became kind of geriatric. He's constantly on the glass. The next day I thought to feed him directly, so I used chopsticks to bring the food near him. The food touched him and pushed him and he wouldn't budge. I know he isn't lethargic as a shrimp started bothering him later and eventually he swam away. Later when the Repashy went in he was on the glass. He started surrounding it, but eventually seemed to lose interest and swim away. On the glass he kind of moved to horizontally while eating. It might have been nothing, but it almost looked like his body was moving that direction when he didn't, but this is the only time I've seen this behavior. A common sign of swim bladder is loss of appetite and some buoyancy problems. I've seen none of the obvious symptoms beside loss of appetite which could be a plethora of things. He is fat, but not bloated. I've definitely seen fatter Otos who are bloated. The only thing I can think of that I was doing before was placing a Mylar blanket over their tank due to the winter storm that hit my area . I had heat packs and a battery powered air pump ready. If it happened while I was sleeping hopefully some heat would be conserved until I woke up and started warming the tank up. I'm worried if I start treatment which would be fasting them his gut bacteria will die out in the three days. I've got some algae rocks, but so far they haven't grown too much algae.

 

[Passionfish]

Tank
What is the water volume of the tank? 10 gallons
How long has the tank been running? Two years
Does it have a filter? yes
Does it have a heater? no
What is the water temperature? 73 degrees
What is the entire stocking of this tank? (Please list all fish and inverts.) Cherry shrimp, Ramshorn snails, and Otos

Maintenance
How often do you change the water? weekly
How much of the water do you change? 30%
What do you use to treat your water? Seachem Prime
Do you vacuum the substrate or just the water? I have sand substrate I do vacuum the surface

*Parameters - Very Important
Did you cycle your tank before adding fish? yes
What do you use to test the water? Api liquid tests
What are your parameters? We need to know the exact numbers, not just “fine” or “safe”.
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 10-20
pH: 7.2

Feeding
How often do you feed your fish? every day
How much do you feed your fish? 2 cucumber slices or Some Repashy Soilent Green gel
What brand of food do you feed your fish? Repashy Soilent Green
Do you feed frozen or freeze-dried foods? Does Repashy count?

Illness & Symptoms
How long have you had this fish? a year
How long ago did you first notice these symptoms? two days ago
In a few words, can you explain the symptoms? Some loss of appetite. Maybe buoyancy problems
Have you started any treatment for the illness? no
Was your fish physically ill or injured upon purchase? no
How has its behavior and appearance changed, if at all? It's not gravitating towards the cucumber like it used to.

Explain your emergency situation in detail.
My Oto was doing fine and eating his cucumbers, but one day I forgot to give prepare something because of a big test. I know that's negligence, but after that day on the next when I put in cucumber he just wasn't feeding on them. He became kind of geriatric. He's constantly on the glass. The next day I thought to feed him directly, so I used chopsticks to bring the food near him. The food touched him and pushed him and he wouldn't budge. I know he isn't lethargic as a shrimp started bothering him later and eventually he swam away. Later when the Repashy went in he was on the glass. He started surrounding it, but eventually seemed to lose interest and swim away. On the glass he kind of moved to horizontally while eating. It might have been nothing, but it almost looked like his body was moving that direction when he didn't, but this is the only time I've seen this behavior. A common sign of swim bladder is loss of appetite and some buoyancy problems. I've seen none of the obvious symptoms beside loss of appetite which could be a plethora of things. He is fat, but not bloated. I've definitely seen fatter Otos who are bloated. The only thing I can think of that I was doing before was placing a Mylar blanket over their tank due to the winter storm that hit my area . I had heat packs and a battery powered air pump ready. If it happened while I was sleeping hopefully some heat would be conserved until I woke up and started warming the tank up. I'm worried if I start treatment which would be fasting them his gut bacteria will die out in the three days. I've got some algae rocks, but so far they haven't grown too much algae.

Ottos need a school to thrive, it could be he is stressed and alone. Get him some buddies, and I can 80% guarantee you he will go back to normal.

 

[FishSupreme]

Ottos need a school to thrive, it could be he is stressed and alone. Get him some buddies, and I can 80% guarantee you he will go back to normal.

Right now he is in a trio. I've read that's enough.

 

[MacZ]

Right now he is in a trio. I've read that's enough.

Actually it should be more, but a 10 gallon is not able to sustain the necessary group size.
Problem is as specialised aufwuchs eaters Otos need to be offered food 24/7, especially in a tank that likely isn't able to sustain them without supplements. A day without food can have a destabilising effect on their health. Otos are notorious for being problematic on so many levels. Get the nitrates down with waterchanges, and maybe start feeding other veggies than just cucumber. That stuff is bare of any nutrients besides fiber. And repashy doesn't count as freeze-dried, it's far too processed.

Just one important thing: What people often know as "Swim bladder disorder" is not a disease but just a symptom, just as dropsy is also just a symptom. There are numerous conditions that can lead to unstable swimming patterns. Actual swim bladder disorder is rare and almost completely untreatable.

 

[FishSupreme]

Actually it should be more, but a 10 gallon is not able to sustain the necessary group size.
Problem is as specialised aufwuchs eaters Otos need to be offered food 24/7, especially in a tank that likely isn't able to sustain them without supplements. A day without food can have a destabilising effect on their health. Otos are notorious for being problematic on so many levels. Get the nitrates down with waterchanges, and maybe start feeding other veggies than just cucumber. That stuff is bare of any nutrients besides fiber. And repashy doesn't count as freeze-dried, it's far too processed.

Just one important thing: What people often know as "Swim bladder disorder" is not a disease but just a symptom, just as dropsy is also just a symptom. There are numerous conditions that can lead to unstable swimming patterns. Actual swim bladder disorder is rare and almost completely untreatable.

I will definitely start feeding different vegetables. I used to have a fourth but he died a couple months ago. I didn't think one day would matter that much. I was snowed in and couldn't really go out to get anything. I know it's not a good reason, but I didn't have any vegetables that suited their needs. I'll try zuchinni which I was feeding before, but switched to cucumbers when it was the first thing they had accepted.

 

[MacZ]

I will definitely start feeding different vegetables. I used to have a fourth but he died a couple months ago.

You are quite lucky, survival rates below 50% are the norm for Otos, especially for the wild caughts.

 

[FishSupreme]

Maybe, but I'm not sure where my LFS gets their Otos as almost all Otos I've bought in the past have survived past 4 months. Anyways. I'll get the zuchinni going and probably do a water change along with cleaning out my sponger filter. There's been no gut bacteria death just yet and he definitely noticed the Repashy gel and swam near it. All of my other Otos love the gel and he's the only one I've ever kept who hasn't.

 

[MacZ]

Maybe, but I'm not sure where my LFS gets their Otos as almost all Otos I've bought in the past have survived past 4 months.

Either the LFS has a good quarantine system or gets tankraised fish.

I'll get the zuchinni going and probably do a water change

Good! Do 50% at least.

along with cleaning out my sponger filter.

I would actually leave the filter.

There's been no gut bacteria death just yet and he definitely noticed the Repashy gel and swam near it. All of my other Otos love the gel and he's the only one I've ever kept who hasn't.

Maybe a different batch or even species. Many can only be told apart by a handful of experts.

 

[FishSupreme]

Either the LFS has a good quarantine system or gets tankraised fish.


Good! Do 50% at least.


I would actually leave the filter.


Maybe a different batch or even species. Many can only be told apart by a handful of experts.

I think there may be something wrong with him as he has a black top. The top of almost all Otos I know are grey yet he is black. I always thought it was strange, but chalked it up to him being older. Is this something to be concerned about? Also by clean the filter I mean I'm going to squeeze out the brown water as mine is not coarse at all.

 

[MacZ]

The colouration doesn't necessarily say anything. It can actually hint at it being a different species, but nothing is for sure with them.
Ah, ok, the filter thing came across differently.

 

[FishSupreme]

He's on his side. I think not feeding for one day really destabilized his health. He was about a year old. What should I do next. I have a quarantine tank where he can die in peace. I think I have a lack of plants which may be stressing my other Otos out. What's my next course of action. Do I buy new ones or do I just leave my tank with the two Otos. He's definitely fighting. His belly is fat and completely white. One of his symptoms is definitely swim bladder disorder. He got up of his side and is sucking on the glass. The amount of people saying that Otos are beginner fish infuriates me. Fish death is a main reason people leave the hobby. Otos require a lot of care and are fickle. Otos are like the goldfish of the beginner hobbyists world.
Update: I've been feeding my quarantine tank and the nitrates are still a bit high. I've placed him in a bucket. I've decided to periodically add water to increase his oxygen. If he's still alive tonight I'll give a water change. My Otos have been coming out more recently and I'm worried they're stressed. I had some stones ready for a bigger project, but I think I'm going to add them to their tank once cleaned.

 

[MacZ]

I was going to write leave it in the tank, don't stress it on it's last journey. But now it's in the bucket, another move might make it kick it. In the bucket it will likely just be sped up.

But I agree, not a beginner fish and definitely not for the casual fishkeeper.

 

[FishSupreme]

I was going to write leave it in the tank, don't stress it on it's last journey. But now it's in the bucket, another move might make it kick it. In the bucket it will likely just be sped up.

But I agree, not a beginner fish and definitely not for the casual fishkeeper.

Definitely not my finest moment, but I will stand by my decision. Isolating him in his final hours were to ensure the safety of my other Otos. Dying in the tank would just release lots of ammonia that I wasn't ready to handle yet. I have the water ready and will probably do a water change tonight. Around 4 to 5 gallons.
Update: He finally has reached his end. I'm not at the stage where I can just throw him in the trash and buried the fish. I bought some zuchinni for them tonight. Tomorrow I will get more plants for hiding spots. Right now I'm going to gather my thoughts. I added some larger rocks after cleaning them in tap water. I bought them at an LFS, so I think this was enough. They are flat smooth river rocks.
Update: Got everything done, but now there is utter chaos. After the removal of the thrid Oto the largest of the two remaining is bullying the smaller one. I never knew there was going to be such a hierarchy, but before they used to get along perfectly. I don't know what to do. Please Help. I'm probably going to take a trip to the LFS tomorrow, so just tell me what I need to get. I've usually dealt with more peaceful fish. I don't know what to do. I'm panicking. I've got two zuchinni slices in the tank, so hopefully one takes one zuchinni slice and one takes another. MacZ what do I do. I've never dealt with aggression in Otos. This is what might've killed my other Oto. I need more plants and more foliage. They need to feed constantly so bullying like this could be disastrous. I'm losing my mind. I think this is bad for my health. I really need any help I can get.
Update: I moved another slice closer to my Oto but he seemed to have zero interest in it. Instead he went for the wide open cucumber that the bigger Oto had left. Should I left this play out and eventually a hierarchy will form and things will be peaceful. I'm still going to get the plants, but would getting new Otos to lessen aggression makes things worse or better? Thank you for all your help! Before I sign off for the night I want to know how you deal with fish loss and new problems coming your way. My anxiety seems to be higher because of them. They give me so much joy, but I can never enjoy that for more then a bit. I just want a fresher perspective.
Thanks,
FishSupreme

 

[MacZ]

Definitely not my finest moment, but I will stand by my decision. Isolating him in his final hours were to ensure the safety of my other Otos. Dying in the tank would just release lots of ammonia that I wasn't ready to handle yet. I have the water ready and will probably do a water change tonight. Around 4 to 5 gallons.

A fish that dies will not release ammonia immediately. Actually until decomposition starts it won't release ammonia anymore, because when fish breath they release ammonia through their gills all the time in small amounts.

Update: Got everything done, but now there is utter chaos. After the removal of the thrid Oto the largest of the two remaining is bullying the smaller one. I never knew there was going to be such a hierarchy, but before they used to get along perfectly. I don't know what to do. Please Help. I'm probably going to take a trip to the LFS tomorrow, so just tell me what I need to get. I've usually dealt with more peaceful fish. I don't know what to do. I'm panicking. I've got two zuchinni slices in the tank, so hopefully one takes one zuchinni slice and one takes another. @MacZ what do I do. I've never dealt with aggression in Otos. This is what might've killed my other Oto. I need more plants and more foliage. They need to feed constantly so bullying like this could be disastrous. I'm losing my mind. I think this is bad for my health. I really need any help I can get.

No offence, but I doubt you read the behaviour correctly. Otos sometimes follow each other when stressed, seeking company. You just netted one of them and they are still stressed out. Let them come to rest. Wait and see. The aquarium hobby is a patient game.

Update: I moved another slice closer to my Oto but he seemed to have zero interest in it. Instead he went for the wide open cucumber that the bigger Oto had left. Should I left this play out and eventually a hierarchy will form and things will be peaceful. I'm still going to get the plants, but would getting new Otos to lessen aggression makes things worse or better? Thank you for all your help! Before I sign off for the night I want to know how you deal with fish loss and new problems coming your way. My anxiety seems to be higher because of them. They give me so much joy, but I can never enjoy that for more then a bit. I just want a fresher perspective.

They will feed on what they see fit and the piece on already munched on is likely the perfect kind of mushy. There is no hierarchy, just let them do there thing. I'm honestly confused about you reporting normal Oto-behaviour as aggression. And don't get more Otos, just more plants. The tank is still too small to support a bigger group.
How I deal with losses... I'm in the hobby too long and I bred fish back in the day, so all I can say is: I've gotten used to it. I still regret when it happens because of my mistakes and I still feel a bit down for a while. Though unless a fish dies suddenly without warning I usually know when it will happen and when there's nothing I can do anymore. If necessay I can put a fish down.
And especially with Otos, don't be too harsh on yourself. Keeping them alive for over a year is a success!

If you want a fresher perspective:
Research the fish you have in depth. Read up on behaviour, needs, conditions, their natural biotope and think how you can emulate the best conditions possible for them. Also research with what fish they occur in nature and if one of the species that does fits in your tanksize, maybe get some of those. It's important to stay interested. And it's a bit like driving after a car accident. You have to, otherwise you won't drive anymore.

 

[FishSupreme]

A fish that dies will not release ammonia immediately. Actually until decomposition starts it won't release ammonia anymore, because when fish breath they release ammonia through their gills all the time in small amounts.



No offence, but I doubt you read the behaviour correctly. Otos sometimes follow each other when stressed, seeking company. You just netted one of them and they are still stressed out. Let them come to rest. Wait and see. The aquarium hobby is a patient game.



They will feed on what they see fit and the piece on already munched on is likely the perfect kind of mushy. There is no hierarchy, just let them do there thing. I'm honestly confused about you reporting normal Oto-behaviour as aggression. And don't get more Otos, just more plants. The tank is still too small to support a bigger group.
How I deal with losses... I'm in the hobby too long and I bred fish back in the day, so all I can say is: I've gotten used to it. I still regret when it happens because of my mistakes and I still feel a bit down for a while. Though unless a fish dies suddenly without warning I usually know when it will happen and when there's nothing I can do anymore. If necessay I can put a fish down.
And especially with Otos, don't be too harsh on yourself. Keeping them alive for over a year is a success!

If you want a fresher perspective:
Research the fish you have in depth. Read up on behaviour, needs, conditions, their natural biotope and think how you can emulate the best conditions possible for them. Also research with what fish they occur in nature and if one of the species that does fits in your tanksize, maybe get some of those. It's important to stay interested. And it's a bit like driving after a car accident. You have to, otherwise you won't drive anymore.

I don't know what's going to happen next, but I think I finally have a better understanding of the fish. They were one of my fist purchases in the hobby. Before I kept my Carnival Goldfish and some shrimp. I always kept different kinds of shrimp, but my Otos were purchased with me watching some tutorials. What I should've done was read articles which detail extensive quarantine processes. Everything told me they were beginner level, and since I had kept some of the harder shrimp species I decided to give it a try. Sorry about the aggression thing I was feeling a lot better after I changed the water, cleaned the filter, added some new river stones, and fed them. My zuchinni slices had finally been found by the smallest Oto. Before the Otos had just been on the same cucumber, but from my stressed out a bit down self it looked as if the bigger Oto came and made the little one swim off. I carefully watched them and the smallest Oto tried to swim up, but got shooed away over and over again. He would sometimes maintain a spot on the zuchinni slice, but when he tried to get close he got shooed away. Another zuchinni slice was mobbed by the shrimp in a higher flow zone, so I moved it towards the Otos. In the end they both ate on their own zuchinni slices. I kind of panicked there, but after a while I gathered my senses and realized that was no the case. Most of time in the hobby has been spent learning how to care for goldfish after I kept them in abysmal conditions. Otherwise my experience is mostly with shrimp. Thanks for all the help and I'm sorry if I acted like a complete and utter beginner in the hobby. With Otos you can't bring out any meds and they're so fickle that I became over cautious with them. Again thanks for the help and have a great day!

 

[FishSupreme]

Aftermath: I added some Jungle Val and Cryptocryne Wenditii Green. My java moss hasn't been doing too well and losing the battle to algae. I never have high ammonia, but I've got hair algae. I had a hair algae infestation for a while, but growth has stopped. I'm replacing my java moss which will hopefully thrive better now. It was the only plant to be taken over by the hair algae. The hair algae growth has nothing to do with Oto's death as it was growing when my tank first began. Green spot algae has started to become abundant. I've haven't bought a test kit for phosphates. I never had the problem before. Hopefully more plants will use up the nutrients and my algae scraper will do the rest. My Otos have started to hide more after the plants got added. They are a lot more cautious and swim off when spotting me. They love the zuchinni and I've been adding three slices a day. I've been reading up about Oto care more and some sites recommend only 30% a week, so the Otos aren't stressed out. One I've not spotted in days which does worry me, but I haven't seen a body on the aquarium floor. I've been readying a ten gallon quarantine which I think I'll throw in some snails to start it to cycle. Then I'll add some neon tetras which will hopefully go with my Otos. These were the only fish that might inhabit the Otos natural habitat of shallow river in Colombia. I might get more plants, but I'm waiting for my Aquarium Co-op Easy Green to arrive. New amazing looking snails might be added too, but I don't want to stress out my Otos. Anyways I want to know if there are any problems with my plan. I can lower my water's ph to suit the neons, but this might negatively effect the shrimp. I want to revamp the tank to better suit the Oto's needs. A more heavily planted look. More driftwood to make them more comfortable. Again thanks for helping me out. I hope you have a great day!