I'm So Embarassed - What's On My Angels?

I am so embarassed, because I know better. I am always telling people don't buy fish that don't look right, etc. etc. control your impulses patience and all that. But these guys...I couldn't...control myself.
I bought the last two koi angels in a tank of otherwise fine looking fish. As you can see, it was very plain there was an issue with their fins before I ever got them out of the bag. These little white whatevers are only on the fins. ONLY on the fins. I actually thought they were spots. There has been no flashing, no appetite loss, no other fish in my tank have any spots or lesions or any signs of disease or stress, including the tiny BN pleco. No clamped fins, everyone is eating heartily. I am on day 7 of careful dosing with Seachem Paraguard, and I can see no change in the fish at all. The same spots are there in the same places, no more or less. At least I am pretty sure because one has one dot in his tail and it's still just one dot. There are no spots on the bodies at all, and all the other fish are still symptom free.
These guys are little, between the size of a nickel and a quarter, and my eyesight is not the best. Is it possible for koi angels to get actual white spots on their fins? Like, they have streaks and irregular white in the pelvic fins...
I want it to not be ich. I want to believe I didn't knowingly and intentionally put sick fish in my tank with healthy fish. Don't we all come looking for the answer we want to hear?
I'm going to continue the treatment for a full two weeks regardless, but I'm curious on the opinion of others.

 

Hmm, it doesn't look like ich to me. The spots seem too big. It's also odd that they are only on the fins. Could it be some weird coloration? Do they look raised at all?

 

It could be part of their markings and not ich.

 

Hmm, it doesn't look like ich to me. The spots seem too big. It's also odd that they are only on the fins. Could it be some weird coloration? Do they look raised at all?

I can't tell...with the fins being clear mostly it's just hard to see if they are raised up or not. I'm going to try to get a better photo this evening. I've only had ich a few times before, and the most recent was several years ago on a betta, so that was pretty easy to treat with salt baths. But these guys don't even show the slightest indication of itch or discomfort. Their fins are always fanned out and they don't flick the edges or anything. They're all over the tank, hanging out together, annoying the pleco, browsing for little morsels in the plants...

 

Maybe this?

It could also be viral in which case there isn't much to do other than keep stress low.

 

It could be part of their markings and not ich.

I was hoping an angel expert would chime in. So you've seen fish with white spots or patches on the clear fins before? I just loved their yellow heads and really wanted white angels. Like I said, I will finish a course of treatment regardless

 

I was hoping an angel expert would chime in. So you've seen fish with white spots or patches on the clear fins before? I just loved their yellow heads and really wanted white angels. Like I said, I will finish a course of treatment regardless

I haven't kept domestic angels for a while. And why are you treating something that you don't really know what you're treating for?

 

I haven't kept domestic angels for a while. And why are you treating something that you don't really know what you're treating for?

Seachem Paraguard is labeled to treat parasitic and fungal infections and lesions caused by virus and bacterial infections and be filter safe and safe for scaleless fish. Lacking a microscope, it felt like the best I could do, to at least try to nip it in the bud before it became a crisis. I had an oscar in this tank for several months without incident or disease, traded him in at my LFS and got these two angels, 7 diamond tetras, and the pleco all at the same time. Paraguard is marketed as safe and reputed to be effective...better safe than sorry I guess?

 

Medications could lead to more harm than good. Best way to help cure whatever disease you're treating for is daily water changes. Medications is more of a last resort imo.

If the angelfish is showing healthy signs and is eating, then I wouldn't treat it for anything.

 

I am on day 7 of careful dosing with Seachem Paraguard,

That was a good move. If they are parasites, then you should have got rid of them.

These guys are little, between the size of a nickel and a quarter, and my eyesight is not the best. Is it possible for koi angels to get actual white spots on their fins?

If the fish are that small, then the spots are actually tine........ I would put that down to scar tissue as the spots seem to be on the spines of the fin.

Have a look at this post - someone else had a similar problem and everyone thought it was scar tissue! https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfishforum/threads/white-spot-on-angelfish-fin.389499/

 

I was hoping an angel expert would chime in. So you've seen fish with white spots or patches on the clear fins before? I just loved their yellow heads and really wanted white angels. Like I said, I will finish a course of treatment regardless

The white spots are definitely not normal coloration for any angelfish

I have had times where I have had one or two spots similar to that on a tail or dorsal fin. But not THAT many. I have read in the past that they are cysts or something along that line. But I don't know how accurate that is.

I suggest daily water changes for a bit and see what happens. If they do not grow or develop fungus or anything like that, I would just let it be for now and see if they go away with good pristine water. I'm serious when I say daily water changes.

Could you maybe get a better picture?

 

Maybe this?

This was my first impression. Most likely what I call scar tissue from fighting in a smaller tank. They do heal eventually, but it takes a long time from what I've seen. I've never saw quite that much, and mostly it's on their pectoral fins from angels bumping into eachother.

 

A picture of them outside the bag might be helpful ..

 

A picture of them outside the bag might be helpful ..

I took a video last night. My phone is terrible at taking pictures of tiny moving things through glass. I kinda miss my iphone for that... Here is the video. As you can see, no one in the tank behaves as if they don't feel well...
I was able to confirm that whatever is going on, it's not just coloration. The white spots are raised up. Still nothing on the bodies, and no new spots and no fewer spots than a week ago.

The white spots are definitely not normal coloration for any angelfish

I have had times where I have had one or two spots similar to that on a tail or dorsal fin. But not THAT many. I have read in the past that they are cysts or something along that line. But I don't know how accurate that is.

I suggest daily water changes for a bit and see what happens. If they do not grow or develop fungus or anything like that, I would just let it be for now and see if they go away with good pristine water. I'm serious when I say daily water changes.

Could you maybe get a better picture?

Thank you for the reply. I think daily water changes are a great idea. I give myself very good advice, but I very seldom follow it...
I don't think it's ich either...there are just zero other symptoms. Lymphocystis? Perhaps? God I hope not... I had a moonight grouami that got one of those scar pimples on a pectoral fin. It never went away.
Thank goodness I have a python now. I know what I'll be doing over the holiday weekend!

 

For what it's worth, I do not think it's Lymphocystis. Do you think it could be anchor worm? This was anchor worm on my kerrI tetra in QT

I had to use tetra parasite guard (discontinued) to treat it. A drug called diflubenzuron treats it. Or a med called treats it.

 

From your video, I do think it's ich. They are 3-dimensional, right? Are there any on the fishes' bodies?

 

From your video, I do think it's ich. They are 3-dimensional, right? Are there any on the fishes' bodies?

Looks really big to be ich no? It's been a long time since I've seen ich tbh.....

 

If you're still treating with paraguard, I would think it would be gone. If I remember, it took about a week to clear it up. You had to wait until the cysts ruptured, then all the oocytes were out to cause more ich. I used a product called methylene blue then. I do not know if it is still used.

I have angels, and have kept them for years. Lovely koi angels you have. I have a german blue blushing angelfish that I love. His name is Itty Bitty. He once was the size of a dime. Now it's a half-dollar.

 

If you're still treating with paraguard, I would think it would be gone. If I remember, it took about a week to clear it up. You had to wait until the cysts ruptured, then all the oocytes were out to cause more ich. I used a product called methylene blue then. I do not know if it is still used.

I have angels, and have kept them for years. Lovely koi angels you have. I have a german blue blushing angelfish that I love. His name is Itty Bitty. He once was the size of a dime. Now it's a half-dollar.

That's what I can't figure out. Last night made seven days of treatment with Paraguard, and no change for better or worse on any of the fish. The tank is at 83 degrees. The dots are three dimensional but there are no cysts on the fishes' bodies at all. I'm pretty sure Paraguard has methylene blue in it... not positive... I only get on fishlore at work lol.
Thank you they are beautiful. I've never seen one with as bright a yellow on them and it really pops against all the black. Now if I can keep them alive...

 

I'm pretty sure Paraguard doesn't treat anchor worm or fish lice. Paraguard is malachite green and aldehyde with protective polymers to induce healing similar to Stress Coat. Paraguard is effective against ich.

 

There's another old school medication called malachite green you might want to look at. I believe it's for ich specifically, but don't know if it's compatible with all your tank fish. I'm just so surprised the paraguard has not worked by now. What are your other fish in the tank, and do they have the spots?

 

I'm pretty sure Paraguard doesn't treat anchor worm or fish lice. Paraguard is malachite green and aldehyde with protective polymers to induce healing similar to Stress Coat. Paraguard is effective against ich.

That's right...I just remembered there was a color in there somewhere... should have googled first
I did google anchor worm and I don't think that's it...nothing stringy or loose about the dots. (ew those are gross and fish lice are more gross...)

 

Meh, I just treated the tank and that was the end of that. It's mostly common in ponds. I suspect that's where my super blue kerrI tetras came from. They were full of multiple parasites, you can see the white stingy poop. But diflubenzuron took care of the anchor worm. I didn't think it was anchor worm either until I saw the worms hanging out. A friend actually ID'd it here

I said the same thing after googling, that I didn't think it was anchor worm, but it looked like it turned out to be so.

Idk, if it was ich, the Paraguard would have helped or at least the spots would be changing places.

Doesn't look like scar tissue anymore since they are raised. What doesn't Paraguard treat that looks like that?

 

I think I would be treating with a different parasite med like rid ich ?
I have no experience with paraguard but have heard plenty like yours [it doing nothing ] ...
I would be inclined to believe the spots could be calcium build up on the rays of the fish but they look too much to not put effort into curing .
I would watch your other fish closely .

 

Just some info....
Rid Ich is formalin and zinc-free chloride salt of malachite green

Paraguard is aldehyde (a safer option of formaldehyde), malachite green and protective polymers. I'm not sure of the concentrations, but it's a similar medication.

This is just my experience
I do know of Paraguard treating ich and I haven't personally heard of it not working. Myself I've used it against columnaris in a QT tank. I can't say if it helped the affected fish, but death numbers went down (before I brought the affected fish back) and none of the other fish in QT became ill with it.

I would for sure be watching everything closely as coralbandit suggested, maybe even taking daily pics to see if the spots are dropping off and/or spreading.

At any rate, pls keep us posted.

 

I did a 30% WC last night and the daily dose of paraguard. I'll do that again tonight. It looks like I'm also getting a bacterial bloom, which puzzles me. This tank has been running since the middle of March and I traded in a 6"+ Oscar for these fish, so I can't imagine it's overloaded, but at any rate I will keep up with the WC's until things get cleared up properly. I think I have some Aqua Vitro Seed (It's like Stability, but supposedly it's better - more stable on the shelf) left in my cabinet so maybe I'll add some of that tonight as well. The dots seem less pronounced today, looking back over these photos. Not falling off, but maybe healing/receding?

 

Well I did some searching, and it's possible this is some kind of resistent strain of Ich. I really only heard of success treating with Paraguard against ich, but it is rather mild. I will say I've never seen ich like what's on your fish, so maybe it's a special strain? How long have you been dosing daily with Paraguard? What temperature do you have the tank at?

Further research tells me that anchor worm feeds on the fish's blood. They won't be feeding on blood attached to the fins. I'm boggled.

Idk why you'd have a bacterial bloom either. Hopefully BB catches up soon. You didn't clean the filter or anything? Yes, I'd add the bacteria or media from another healthy established tank. Btw, Paraguard is a reducer, and heterotrophic bacteria uses up a lot of oxygen too, so make sure your filter output is disrupting water surface or you have an airstone. Oh yeah, and what did the LFS say? I hope all goes well!

 

Well I did some searching, and it's possible this is some kind of resistent strain of Ich. I really only heard of success treating with Paraguard against ich, but it is rather mild. I will say I've never seen ich like what's on your fish, so maybe it's a special strain? How long have you been dosing daily with Paraguard? What temperature do you have the tank at?

Further research tells me that anchor worm feeds on the fish's blood. They won't be feeding on blood attached to the fins. I'm boggled.

Idk why you'd have a bacterial bloom either. Hopefully BB catches up soon. You didn't clean the filter or anything? Yes, I'd add the bacteria or media from another healthy established tank. Btw, Paraguard is a reducer, and heterotrophic bacteria uses up a lot of oxygen too, so make sure your filter output is disrupting water surface or you have an airstone. Oh yeah, and what did the LFS say? I hope all goes well!

Yesterday makes 7 days of daily dosing. I bought the fish Sunday, ordered the medicine Sunday night and received it on Tuesday. There was just no chance of catching these itty bitty fish in all that water to take them back.
I've done 2 ea. 30% water changes including yesterday's. I turned the temp up to 83. I didn't clean anything when I switched out the fish, except that I did a 50% water change/vacuum when I removed the oscar and before heading to the store to buy the new fish. The tank was only empty for a total of about an hour, so I don't think there was probably much die off in that short of a time. My other tanks are too tiny to be of much use in the way of established media, unfortunately...the next largest one is ten gallons and it just has Poret in the HOB filter. The output from my filter return pump is pointed at the surface (you can see it in the video)...it moves about 300 GPH through a Hamburg Mattenfilter.
I didn't contact the store. It's a pretty well-known store in the area, but not for their compassionate service if you catch my drift. I really should have gone elsewhere, but they're the closest. I was too impatient, and I really should have just not bought the fish. I'm also seriously averse to confrontation :/ Not their fault I made a bad choice.
I am hopeful that they will pull through this. They still aren't acting sick at all, and the diamond tetras and the BN pleco are oblivious to the problem. I put a cucumber skin in the tank last night and the pleco went to town on it. Everyone is eating and behaving normally still.

 

So if it's ich, 83°F should accelerate the lifecycle, but not enough to prevent them from reproducing. Temp needs to be 86°F to prevent reproduction as you may already know. But with the Paraguard, it hopefully is enough to kill the Tomites stage, so you won't see any reappear. Nothing will touch the spots you see until they drop off to multiply.

It's only been 8 days, and you might be seeing improvement, so I think that's a good thing. Seachem suggests 2 week (prophylactic) treatment. They suggest treatment until all spots are gone and 3 days after that at least. But as long as you're not seeing new spots, that is a good sign I think. At 83°F, the spots should be dropping soon if it's ich! I read 5/6 days at that temp.

 

I do not believe that is ICH though.....its only on the fins and the spots are much too large to be ICH. So I am confused why we are talking about ich treatments. Did I miss something?

I just watched the video and they sure appear to be healthy other than those spots.....

The lack of growth and lack of additional spots after a week leads me to believe it is not something to get overly concerned about to the point where you end up overmedicating.

But that's just me. If I were in your shoes, I would just do daily water changes and only take it a step further if I see appetite loss or the spots multiplying or growing fungus. As long as those things don't happen, I personally wouldn't be using medication of any kind. But again, that's just me!!!

 

So if it's ich, 83°F should accelerate the lifecycle, but not enough to prevent them from reproducing. Temp needs to be 86°F to prevent reproduction as you may already know. But with the Paraguard, it hopefully is enough to kill the Tomites stage, so you won't see any reappear. Nothing will touch the spots you see until they drop off to multiply.

It's only been 8 days, and you might be seeing improvement, so I think that's a good thing. Seachem suggests 2 week (prophylactic) treatment. They suggest treatment until all spots are gone and 3 days after that at least. But as long as you're not seeing new spots, that is a good sign I think. At 83°F, the spots should be dropping soon if it's ich! I read 5/6 days at that temp.

I do not believe that is ICH though.....its only on the fins and the spots are much too large to be ICH. So I am confused why we are talking about ich treatments. Did I miss something?

I just watched the video and they sure appear to be healthy other than those spots.....

The lack of growth and lack of additional spots after a week leads me to believe it is not something to get overly concerned about to the point where you end up overmedicating.

But that's just me. If I were in your shoes, I would just do daily water changes and only take it a step further if I see appetite loss or the spots multiplying or growing fungus. As long as those things don't happen, I personally wouldn't be using medication of any kind. But again, that's just me!!!

You both are so knowledgable about angels and things in general and I am so grateful for your input. I am torn between continuing what is reported to be a very safe medication that is recommended as a prophylactic by many, in the hopes that it will cure "whatever this is"...Or... stopping the treatment, calling it scar tissue (perhaps from an earlier fin issue, which would make sense with the placement of the spots in sort of an organized row on the fins) and hoping for the best with upped water changes and good food.
I am leaning towards the continued treatment just because Paraguard is supposed to be effective against a wide range of external parasites and fungus and protection against secondary infection as well.

 

You both are so knowledgable about angels and things in general and I am so grateful for your input. I am torn between continuing what is reported to be a very safe medication that is recommended as a prophylactic by many, in the hopes that it will cure "whatever this is"...Or... stopping the treatment, calling it scar tissue (perhaps from an earlier fin issue, which would make sense with the placement of the spots in sort of an organized row on the fins) and hoping for the best with upped water changes and good food.
I am leaning towards the continued treatment just because Paraguard is supposed to be effective against a wide range of external parasites and fungus and protection against secondary infection as well.

I am part of an angelfish group on facebook that is full of some very very talented angelfish breeders who have been keeping and breeding angels for decades.

I took a screen shot of your angelfish and sent it to one of them asking if they have any ideas. I'll let you know as soon as I hear something.

Ok, only one response so far...but I will have plenty more responses soon.

The one response so far says
"calcium deposits???"

 

I'm going to lean on genetics, though I'm not 100% certain.

 

I'm going to lean on genetics, though I'm not 100% certain.

So you think it's actual spots?

 

So you think it's actual spots?

Probably. If you say that your angels are healthy and that the spots are there for a week after the medications, then I would suspect that it's just genetics. However, I'm not 100% certain and that you should do daily water changes just to be on the safe side.

 

So you think it's actual spots?

No. These spots are not normal coloring for any phenotype.

Heres a good answer from a very experienced breeder.

"Its not ich. There is something called lympho-------something that it could be. Others think it is caused by calcium in the water. I do know its not contagious and not harmful. Just more unsightly than anything."


I also feel it is just an unsightly cosmetic issue that is not contagious or harmful. Which is why I personally wouldnt medicate. I'm leaning towards calcium issues.

 

OK. I got one good shot while I was taking my video the other day, and I zoomed it in and cropped it. It's still not the best. But you can see the spots are between the rays on the membrane of the fin...
I also cropped this photo and the original one from in the bag and put them side by side and the dots are really unchanged, which to me also indicates that it isn't "alive" whatever it is, since there has been no response to the meds... I think I will save my medicine for the future, throw some Seed in the tank and do water changes until it clears up, and take it from there.
If they start to look worse or show other signs then I'll go from there. I definitely won't be adding any more fish until this is figured out, so at least they'll have a guarantee of good water for a while.
Thanks again for everyone's help <3

 

OK. I got one good shot while I was taking my video the other day, and I zoomed it in and cropped it. It's still not the best. But you can see the spots are between the rays on the membrane of the fin...
I also cropped this photo and the original one from in the bag and put them side by side and the dots are really unchanged, which to me also indicates that it isn't "alive" whatever it is, since there has been no response to the meds... I think I will save my medicine for the future, throw some Seed in the tank and do water changes until it clears up, and take it from there.
If they start to look worse or show other signs then I'll go from there. I definitely won't be adding any more fish until this is figured out, so at least they'll have a guarantee of good water for a while.
Thanks again for everyone's help <3 View attachment 558975

I think that is a good choice.
For what it's worth, 3 more people have said calcium spots.....

I think they will be just fine. As long as you keep your water nice and clean!

 

I agree on calcium deposits .I searched like mad but the world of fish science and fish common sense rarely align !
So this is just the thoughts of guy who has few problems he can't solve himself with fish and is paid to solve puzzles !
It's a combo of possible injury /issue [even poor water quality or exposure to a damaging disease] in the past or possibly a surplus of calcium somehow in the ray of the fins .
I would not expect to see it go away at all without manual removal or exposure to a more serious med ..I agree with Liz on possibly over medicating for no good cause , but I am also one to dose in a more serious manner then most ..Since catching them is out then bathes would not be an option ..

 

Calcium deposits (never knew about this) make sense since they did not respond to meds and don't seem to be alive or change places. Your newest screen capture shot makes it really NOT look like Ich or Anchor worms. Too big and too opaque white to me. And both fish DO really look healthy, not scratching....

Tbh, I don't even use meds until I'm sure I need them, (or in QT), so I'm thinking although Paraguard is gentle enough to use as a prophylactic, fresh clean water is the best. I don't think it's a big deal to stop dosing the Paraguard, but I don't think it's a big deal you did use them. I just don't think it is needed. Whatever it is, it doesn't seem to bother them.

I really hope it's calcium deposits anyway as it looks to be