If you have a water softener you must use alternate water source for freshwater tank

[Fisheye]

Yes or no

I don't know how to do a poll

 

[esqueff]

Not in my experience. I've had a 55 set up at my parents house for 6 years now and haven't had any related issues. I would like to hear what others think however.

 

[Bambam787]

My 55g gets water changes weekly from my house's water, which has a softener. No problems that's I've occurred.

 

[AvalancheDave]

I used to think softened water was OK but now I know that fish need some calcium and magnesium in the water.

 

[Tinytail]

It was a concern for me when I first started keeping fish almost 3 years ago but things have gone okay. I think the most difficult part is the lack of pH buffering which can cause problems and be confusing for a beginner. In terms of the salts used to soften the water, I think that’s okay too. I was supposed to get it tested for free at a FS about an hour away from me that has a fancy test system but then quarantine happened so I don’t have a definitive answer there. The thing that perplexes me the most his how I can have almost zero hardness but alkaline pH sometimes lol fortunately it’s usually around 7 out of the tap.... most of the time

 

[Fisheye]

Question for everyone...do you know if you have potassium or sodium chloride softening your water?

 

[Donthemon]

You have to add salt or whatever to the water softener. So hopefully you know what you add unless you have a water softener company do it then check with them. I looked into getting a salt one but didn’t. Can’t use the water for gardening or fish tank I was told by the water softener co.

 

[Fisheye]

Thanks Donthemon (great handle). Asking for a new forum member. I think from my research that potassium chloride is safer than the salt. Your comment confirms.

 

[Sorg67]

I by pass my water softener to get water for my aquarium. I use sodium chloride in my water softener. I have considered potassium chloride, but it is a lot more expensive.

Before I was aware of the issue, I used the water softener water. My guppies did fine. My plants did not. My Betta seems better now than before, but not sure that had anything to do with the water.

 

[fishkeeper19524]

most water softeners can't completely take all of the minerals out of the water.

 

[Sorg67]

most water softeners can't completely take all of the minerals out of the water.

Water softeners work by replacing minerals with other minerals. In my case Calcium and magnesium is replaced with sodium. Total dissolved solids is not changed. My GH of my softened water goes to almost zero, but my KH stays about the same. Before the water softener both GH and KH are between 7 and 8 degrees. After the water softener KH is about the same and GH is between 0 and 1.

 

[munguin]

Related question: I live in the northeast US where there is a lot of hard water. I'm starting 2 small 5-gallon tanks over again after betta fish did not survive the first attempt. My initial thought is that my tanks hadn't cycled properly, so over the past 6 months I have learned how to do a fishless cycle. My tanks are now zapping 4ppm of ammonia down to 0 in 1 day. (I feel ridiculously, absurdly proud of that. ) However, just as I was telling my kids we are OK to try again with fish, it occurred to me that perhaps the slow and unexplainable demise of their prior fish was somehow related to our whole-house water softener. I've been doing online research and, as this thread suggests, there is conflicting information on whether water from this type of softener is safe for aquariums. My questions are:
(1) For those who are using unsoftened water (so, the water is still hard), do you have to do anything special to that hard water before putting it in the tank? And if so, what, and why?
(2) For those who are using softened water from a home softener, are there minerals you need to add back in?
Thanks.

 

[Fisheye]

My tap water is liquid rock so I only keep fish that are ok in my out of the tap water. I don't monkey with anything.

Hope someone can answer #2!

 

[Donthemon]

Most but not all water softeners use and add salt to the water to soften it. That is what the problem can be for the fish......small enough tanks if you had to get water somewhere else. Some softeners have a hose to get water from before it goes to the softener .

 

[CTYankee79]

The thing that perplexes me the most his how I can have almost zero hardness but alkaline pH sometimes lol fortunately it’s usually around 7 out of the tap.... most of the time

I have a water softener and my pH is 8.1-8.3.
Just ordered a GH/KH test kit last night, hopefully that can shed some light on my water situation.
But so far so good using the softened water, no issues yet but I’ve only had a tank for a month.
That being said—I really need to spend the $400 quoted me to install a bypass...first I couldn’t water my garden (bought a rain barrel) now I’m worried about my fish! And buying the potassium pellets are about 5 times the cost of the salt, that will add up quick...

 

[Sorg67]

Related question: I live in the northeast US where there is a lot of hard water. I'm starting 2 small 5-gallon tanks over again after betta fish did not survive the first attempt. My initial thought is that my tanks hadn't cycled properly, so over the past 6 months I have learned how to do a fishless cycle. My tanks are now zapping 4ppm of ammonia down to 0 in 1 day. (I feel ridiculously, absurdly proud of that. ) However, just as I was telling my kids we are OK to try again with fish, it occurred to me that perhaps the slow and unexplainable demise of their prior fish was somehow related to our whole-house water softener. I've been doing online research and, as this thread suggests, there is conflicting information on whether water from this type of softener is safe for aquariums. My questions are:
(1) For those who are using unsoftened water (so, the water is still hard), do you have to do anything special to that hard water before putting it in the tank? And if so, what, and why?

Whether you need to do anything with the “hard” water depends on how hard and what is in your tank. I do not do anything to my hard water (GH and KH 7 to 8 deg, pH 8.2) at the moment. Messing with water can get complicated and a lot of people mess it up if they do not know what they are doing. It is important to keep it stable.

I have driftwood in all my tanks and that seems to do little or nothing. Most people who want to soften their water do so by mixing it with RO or distilled water. In my case, a 50/50 mix would result in KH and GH of about 4.

I believe there are some substrates that can soften water. But I do not know about that. It is my understanding that softening water is harder than increasing hardness. Softening required taking minerals out. hardening requires putting things in. Adding is easier than taking out.

Swimming pools mess with pH by constantly adding things. These substances build up over time. My pool has TDS of 1,600! My tap water had TDS of 165. My pool has 25 years of adding stuff to mess with pH and never taking anything out.

(2) For those who are using softened water from a home softener, are there minerals you need to add back in?
Thanks.

Softened water with a home water softener does not create the right kind of water for fish who like soft water. The minerals that are removed are usually replaced with sodium, sometimes potassium. That does not show up in GH or KH tests, but is a part of TDS total dissolved solids and can impact osmoregulation processes. When I was using the water softener water, my guppies did just fine, but my plants struggled. My Betta did okay. I think my plants might do a bit better with potassium, but as you say it is five times as expensive. $5 vs $27 a 40 lb bag. I use about 30 lb per month.

You can replace GH with a product like SeaChem Equilibrium, but that does not address the issue of the sodium. If you want to keep plants, that may be a problem. And if you put Equilibrium on top of the sodium then your TDS will be really high. That might create some osmoregulation problems for some fish. I am not sure how that works so I really do not know. I just know it is not ideal and can create problems depending on the fish.

I am currently playing with water in a bucket. I do not want to mess with the water in my tanks until I know what I am doing. I started down the road of messing with water because I thought my water was not ideal for shrimp. But my shrimp are doing great. So I do not think I am going to mess with their water. I might mess with the water in my Betta tank.

I believe my Rasboras would prefer softer water, so I might mess with their water, but that is a 40 gallon tank so that is more RO or distilled water to gather for weekly water changes. I think my plants might do a little better with softer water. Not sure about that yet.

$400 sounds like a lot to install a bypass to the water softener. My water softener can be bypassed in two ways. There are valves that can be turned to put unsoftened water into the house. I can run water for a few minutes to run the soft water out of the pipes and then get unsoftened cold water at the tap. Not hot water, that would require running water for long enough to drain the hot water heater. But in Florida, temp matching is not a big deal since cold water is not that cold. There is also a hose bib in the line leading to the water softener. This is what I am using now to draw water from before the water softener. I run a hose to the back door and fill containers outside and carry them to the fish room.

I do not know much about water softeners, but I had understood that these bypass methods were pretty standard. It might be worth investigating a bit to make sure you do not already have the ability to draw water before the softener. Saying “bypass” to a plumber might mean something you do not intend.

My water softener is 20 years old and sits outside the house. Maybe the new ones are different.

 

[CTYankee79]

Whether you need to do anything with the “hard” water depends on how hard and what is in your tank. I do not do anything to my hard water (GH and KH 7 to 8 deg, pH 8.2) at the moment. Messing with water can get complicated and a lot of people mess it up if they do not know what they are doing. It is important to keep it stable.

I have driftwood in all my tanks and that seems to do little or nothing. Most people who want to soften their water do so by mixing it with RO or distilled water. In my case, a 50/50 mix would result in KH and GH of about 4.

I believe there are some substrates that can soften water. But I do not know about that. It is my understanding that softening water is harder than increasing hardness. Softening required taking minerals out. hardening requires putting things in. Adding is easier than taking out.

Swimming pools mess with pH by constantly adding things. These substances build up over time. My pool has TDS of 1,600! My tap water had TDS of 165. My pool has 25 years of adding stuff to mess with pH and never taking anything out.


Softened water with a home water softener does not create the right kind of water for fish who like soft water. The minerals that are removed are usually replaced with sodium, sometimes potassium. That does not show up in GH or KH tests, but is a part of TDS total dissolved solids and can impact osmoregulation processes. When I was using the water softener water, my guppies did just fine, but my plants struggled. My Betta did okay. I think my plants might do a bit better with potassium, but as you say it is five times as expensive. $5 vs $27 a 40 lb bag. I use about 30 lb per month.

You can replace GH with a product like SeaChem Equilibrium, but that does not address the issue of the sodium. If you want to keep plants, that may be a problem. And if you put Equilibrium on top of the sodium then your TDS will be really high. That might create some osmoregulation problems for some fish. I am not sure how that works so I really do not know. I just know it is not ideal and can create problems depending on the fish.

I am currently playing with water in a bucket. I do not want to mess with the water in my tanks until I know what I am doing. I started down the road of messing with water because I thought my water was not ideal for shrimp. But my shrimp are doing great. So I do not think I am going to mess with their water. I might mess with the water in my Betta tank.

I believe my Rasboras would prefer softer water, so I might mess with their water, but that is a 40 gallon tank so that is more RO or distilled water to gather for weekly water changes. I think my plants might do a little better with softer water. Not sure about that yet.

$400 sounds like a lot to install a bypass to the water softener. My water softener can be bypassed in two ways. There are valves that can be turned to put unsoftened water into the house. I can run water for a few minutes to run the soft water out of the pipes and then get unsoftened cold water at the tap. Not hot water, that would require running water for long enough to drain the hot water heater. But in Florida, temp matching is not a big deal since cold water is not that cold. There is also a hose bib in the line leading to the water softener. This is what I am using now to draw water from before the water softener. I run a hose to the back door and fill containers outside and carry them to the fish room.

I do not know much about water softeners, but I had understood that these bypass methods were pretty standard. It might be worth investigating a bit to make sure you do not already have the ability to draw water before the softener. Saying “bypass” to a plumber might mean something you do not intend.

My water softener is 20 years old and sits outside the house. Maybe the new ones are different.

Agreed that those methods to bypass the softener are standard, in fact everyone I know that has a softener has the ability to bypass. Even at my parents house growing up id have to turn a valve before I watered the garden. Unfortunately the previous owners of my house did not have the foresight or the need to install any type of bypass. The water goes directly from the well tank to the softener tank in my basement. The hose bib is installed after that.

I have driftwood too, and peat moss in the tank for a month, and neither have touched the pH. I’ve thought about mixing in spring water or distilled water to lower the pH but I don’t want to mess with anything as fish and plants are doing well right now.

 

[Sorg67]

Agreed that those methods to bypass the softener are standard, in fact everyone I know that has a softener has the ability to bypass. Even at my parents house growing up id have to turn a valve before I watered the garden. Unfortunately the previous owners of my house did not have the foresight or the need to install any type of bypass. The water goes directly from the well tank to the softener tank in my basement. The hose bib is installed after that.

Is there exposed PVC pipe feeding the water softener? If so, it seems like it would be pretty easy to turn off the water, cut the PVC pipe and install a hose bib. It would be more complicated to install the valve system to bypass. The valve system for my water softener has three valves. One controls water to the softener. Another controls the flow through the bypass. And the third controls water from the softener. Seems like the one to and the one from the water softener are redundant. One would suffice to stop the flow. Well, perhaps the need for two is to service the softener. You could cutoff flow to the softener to let it drain. I will have to go check that out.

It would seem to me that there would need to be some means to control the flow to service the softener. I suppose you could just cutoff the water supply completely. It might be worth following the water supply all the way back to the source to see if there is some access point. There would be a place to turn the water off.

I have driftwood too, and peat moss in the tank for a month, and neither have touched the pH.

My understanding is that at a certain level of KH it is extremely difficult to adjust pH.

I’ve thought about mixing in spring water or distilled water to lower the pH but I don’t want to mess with anything as fish and plants are doing well right now.

That has been my feeling. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[CTYankee79]

Is there exposed PVC pipe feeding the water softener? If so, it seems like it would be pretty easy to turn off the water, cut the PVC pipe and install a hose bib. It would be more complicated to install the valve system to bypass. The valve system for my water softener has three valves. One controls water to the softener. Another controls the flow through the bypass. And the third controls water from the softener. Seems like the one to and the one from the water softener are redundant. One would suffice to stop the flow. Well, perhaps the need for two is to service the softener. You could cutoff flow to the softener to let it drain. I will have to go check that out.

It would seem to me that there would need to be some means to control the flow to service the softener. I suppose you could just cutoff the water supply completely. It might be worth following the water supply all the way back to the source to see if there is some access point. There would be a place to turn the water off.



My understanding is that at a certain level of KH it is extremely difficult to adjust pH.



That has been my feeling. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

It’s all copper piping, and goes directly from the well tank to the softener right next to it. I would have to shutoff the whole house water valve in order to service the softener. Some welding and valve installation would have to be done. The only other valve upline from the softener is for the water filter, just a plastic housing to shutoff water while changing filters. It’s not a great setup unfortunately.

 

[Lswims11]

It was a concern for me when I first started keeping fish almost 3 years ago but things have gone okay. I think the most difficult part is the lack of pH buffering which can cause problems and be confusing for a beginner. In terms of the salts used to soften the water, I think that’s okay too. I was supposed to get it tested for free at a FS about an hour away from me that has a fancy test system but then quarantine happened so I don’t have a definitive answer there. The thing that perplexes me the most his how I can have almost zero hardness but alkaline pH sometimes lol fortunately it’s usually around 7 out of the tap.... most of the time

lucky to have a low ph. my tap is at 8.5 and i'm a beginner so i don't really know what to do. any advice?

 

[Tinytail]

lucky to have a low ph. my tap is at 8.5 and i'm a beginner so i don't really know what to do. any advice?

Most people recommend not to fight your pH. If it’s high, get fish that like high. Um let me think of some species for you.... shell dwellers are a fun one that I’ve been wanting to try but they can be pricy and hard to find for a beginner. Neolamprologus multifasciatus (try saying that 5 times fast) is a small shell-dwelling species. Guppies/platys/swordtails/mollies are a standard recommendation. I find they are mostly likely to be sickly at chain stores but if you find some good ones I recommend getting only males because they can overrun your tank with babies before you know it.
African cichlids are a popular choice if you have a large tank. Apparently paradise fish like hard water. I’ve never had those before so I’m not really sure but I saw an albino one today that was pretty sweet looking.
Hope that helps

 

[Lswims11]

Most people recommend not to fight your pH. If it’s high, get fish that like high. Um let me think of some species for you.... shell dwellers are a fun one that I’ve been wanting to try but they can be pricy and hard to find for a beginner. Neolamprologus multifasciatus (try saying that 5 times fast) is a small shell-dwelling species. Guppies/platys/swordtails/mollies are a standard recommendation. I find they are mostly likely to be sickly at chain stores but if you find some good ones I recommend getting only males because they can overrun your tank with babies before you know it.
African cichlids are a popular choice if you have a large tank. Apparently paradise fish like hard water. I’ve never had those before so I’m not really sure but I saw an albino one today that was pretty sweet looking.
Hope that helps

I've been told that all fish can be acclimated to high ph and captive bred are more hardy. the fish i want is a black angelfish, as my centerpiece fish

 

[Sorg67]

I've been told that all fish can be acclimated to high ph and captive bred are more hardy. the fish i want is a black angelfish, as my centerpiece fish

I have been told that pH is not that big a deal. It is KH. KH is highly related to pH and pH is easier to test so pH has become the thing people focus on even though it is really a proxy for KH.

KH is important for its use in osmoregulation. Most fish that like low KH can adapt to high KH. But fish that like high KH have a difficult time surviving in low KH because they do not have what they need to support the osmoregulation process.

Not sure I have it quite 100% right. But the gist of it is that it is easier to adjust to high pH / KH than the reverse.

 

[Lswims11]

I have been told that pH is not that big a deal. It is KH. KH is highly related to pH and pH is easier to test so pH has become the thing people focus on even though it is really a proxy for KH.

KH is important for its use in osmoregulation. Most fish that like low KH can adapt to high KH. But fish that like high KH have a difficult time surviving in low KH because they do not have what they need to support the osmoregulation process.

Not sure I have it quite 100% right. But the gist of it is that it is easier to adjust to high pH / KH than the reverse.

how to test KH?

 

[AvalancheDave]

I have been told that pH is not that big a deal. It is KH. KH is highly related to pH and pH is easier to test so pH has become the thing people focus on even though it is really a proxy for KH.

KH is important for its use in osmoregulation. Most fish that like low KH can adapt to high KH. But fish that like high KH have a difficult time surviving in low KH because they do not have what they need to support the osmoregulation process.

I don't know...I think carbonate is more important for acid-base regulation. I did a Control-F for "carbonate" of the entire Fish Osmoregulation book and didn't find anything suggesting carbonate/bicarbonate were important.

 

[Lswims11]

I don't know...I think carbonate is more important for acid-base regulation. I did a Control-F for "carbonate" of the entire Fish Osmoregulation book and didn't find anything suggesting carbonate/bicarbonate were important.

i think from what I've heard, the KH affects the levels of ph

 

[CTYankee79]

lucky to have a low ph. my tap is at 8.5 and i'm a beginner so i don't really know what to do. any advice?

you could try using peat moss, driftwood, or almond leaves to lower the pH. Mine is 8.3 out of the tap and those are the natural methods recommended to me. I am new to this myself and when my water tested so high I was worried about getting any fish—my water was out of the recommended range for almost anything! I didn’t have much luck using those methods above, and I starting buying chemicals like pH down, but then I just accepted the fact that my pH is high and I never even used the chemicals. Instead I did a very slow acclimation when I brought the fish home. They are all thriving a month later. What long term effects the pH will have I can’t speak to. But I believe if you do a slow acclimation it will really help, most fish can acclimate. It’s better than chasing your pH. Good luck with your tank!

 

[Lswims11]

you could try using peat moss, driftwood, or almond leaves to lower the pH. Mine is 8.3 out of the tap and those are the natural methods recommended to me. I am new to this myself and when my water tested so high I was worried about getting any fish—my water was out of the recommended range for almost anything! I didn’t have much luck using those methods above, and I starting buying chemicals like pH down, but then I just accepted the fact that my pH is high and I never even used the chemicals. Instead I did a very slow acclimation when I brought the fish home. They are all thriving a month later. What long term effects the pH will have I can’t speak to. But I believe if you do a slow acclimation it will really help, most fish can acclimate. It’s better than chasing your pH. Good luck with your tank!

i have driftwood and then I also bought acid buffer which i have stopped using. how did you do your acclimation?

 

[CTYankee79]

i have driftwood and then I also bought acid buffer which i have stopped using. how did you do your acclimation?

I used the float method in this link. It took a couple hours but was worth it. If you want to do an even slower acclimation you can do the drip method, also in this link.