Biz's Black German Ram Breeding Journal :-)

[bizaliz3]

Hello fish friends! I am starting a new breeding journal. BLACK GERMAN RAMS!!!! And I am beyond excited about it!! Here is my story, and please stay tuned for pics and video!!

I have a local LFS who isn’t a very large store, but they focus on rare and unusual fish that you don’t see very often. They got in these Black German rams and I just HAD to have them! I am normally not super impulsive, particularly when getting a new species of fish that I don’t know a whole lot about. But I had to do it. They would have been sold out if I waited even one more day.

Luckily these ones were large enough that they were already sexable at the store. And I got a male and female pair for just $36. That was an EXCELLENT deal. I saw a pair being sold somewhere online for $100! (when I was doing my research on my new fish AFTER buying them….which is technically a no-no LOL)

I got a 25 gallon tank just for the two of them. I set it up for them to breed. Pristine water, sand, a corner of plants, a couple flat rocks and a “cave” and a temp of 82. The female had her breeding tube sticking out when I got her home. And after a couple days it went away. So I am thinking she laid eggs and they ate them immediately. Cuz I never saw a thing. Its understandable though, since they had just been imported from overseas earlier in the week and had to acclimate to two new tanks during that week (the LFS and mine). They just weren’t ready. Too much stress!!

Fast forward approx one month and they spawned again. Right in front of my face. I got to watch and take a great video. They laid the eggs on Sunday night (3 days ago) and they hatched last night. It was just under 48 hours when I caught them moving freshly hatched wigglers to a giant pit they dug in the sand. I had read differing accounts of how long they take to hatch. Some people would say 48 hours, others would say 3-4 days. Well, in 82 degree temps, per my experience, they hatch in 48 hours.

I didn’t want to officially start a thread until the eggs hatched. I didn’t want to jinx anything. And I still don’t want to! I hope I am not! Haha. I am feeling incredibly lucky right now because they have already made it further than most new pairs do.( According to all my research anyway). I even had someone who has years of experience breeding german rams, tell me straight up, they will not succeed this time around. They had no doubt about it. It didn’t make me very hopeful. And it is making me still very nervous!! I am unable to get too excited…or I am trying not to anyway. But it’s tough!

All of this has been a surprise to me. I have been on FL for years, and I while I haven’t done much research on german rams….I have seen them talked about quite a bit on here. And people always say they are hard to keep, super sensitive and yadda yadda. And I had been having really bad luck with rare and unsual fish lately. Always arriving sick and not lasting long. I just didn’t even think the parents would make it for me! Not with the string of bad luck I had been having!! BUT they are thriving and breeding! After just one month in my care. It feels SOOO good! They quickly became my favorite fish in my house. Which says a LOT for those who have seen many of my fish, I’ve got some stunners (not to brag haha) and I have 16 tanks of fish to choose from! So ya, these guys are seriously something SPECIAL!!!!!

I have so much more to say about all of this (I know, how is that possible right lol)…but this post is already ridiculously long! Thanks to those who took the time to read it all! Haha And again, stay tuned for pics and video! They are coming real soon!

 

[Mom2some]

Yeah!

 

[Blitzar]

Whoa! If you're sucessful, I might want a couple (or 83).

 

[shutterbug13]

If anyone can breed them, it's you! I can't wait to see the outcome!

 

[stella1979]

Loved reading your story, and I'll be excitedly following along.

 

[bizaliz3]

Here is when I first got them. Lookin a little stressed still.


Here's the female moments before she laid her eggs


Here's the male. He's not as black.

 

[Dave125g]

Fallowing. I hope I will be able to tell people that I know the first person in the US to successfully bred black German rams. Good luck.

 

[bizaliz3]

Fallowing. I hope I will be able to tell people that I know the first person in the US to successfully bred black German rams. Good luck.

haha! I am not so sure about that. I do think there might be a couple others working on it. In fact, during my research yesterday, I think I saw a US person who has been working on getting pure black rams. Rams that will be homozygous blacks (two black genes), that will produce only blacks. And they have been working on it for a while. I am pretty sure they were from the US. These black rams were created in Israel. And those folks likely had achieved homozygous black rams. But the homozygous ones don't exist in the US yet, I don't think.

And mine have been criticized for not being as "black" as the high quality blacks are supposed to be. But honestly, I don't think I would like them as much if they were JET black.....

If I am successful, I can shoot for linebreeding to create blacker ones or have a larger majority of the babies be black. But I am not really interested in that. I think dark german rams are really pretty. But jet black? I don't know if they would be as stunning to look at. I guess they would be if they retain their iridescent blue markings!

The reading I did yesterday did seem to confirm that this "black gene", if there is one, is recessive. And this pair will likely produce some regular german rams in addition to the darker ones. And possibly a portion will be darker than their parents too. But I need to have some further success to see those results!!

 

[Blitzar]

Black with the blue would be magical!

 

[Ryan P]

I'm following this journey!
I'm new to fishkeeping and fell in love with my GBR pair, right now I'm trying to hatch the 2nd batch of eggs they laid for me, half of it I lost to fungus but I can see some life on my DIY egg tumbler and hopefully some survive

 

[bizaliz3]

I'm following this journey!
I'm new to fishkeeping and fell in love with my GBR pair, right now I'm trying to hatch the 2nd batch of eggs they laid for me, half of it I lost to fungus but I can see some life on my DIY egg tumbler and hopefully some survive

Awesome! I have never tried using an egg tumbler before. Didn't even know they existed until recently. You'll have to let me know how it goes. I am hoping my ram parents might surprise me and do everything right on their first try! So far so good! They removed the freshly hatched eggs into a pit they dug in the sand, away from the eggs with fungus. I expect them to move the wigglers another couple times before they start swimming.

If my ram parents do not get it right (PLEASE DONT LET THAT BE THE CASE) I might look into getting a tumbler. I have removed angelfish eggs before, but I did the whole meth blue and a bubbler thing.

Thanks for following in my new journey!!! I love the support and it is a lot more fun when you have people to enjoy it with! (since none of my family or friends understand the excitement of it)

 

[Punkin]

(when I was doing my research on my new fish AFTER buying them….which is technically a no-no LOL

You are definitely an exception, you clearly know what you are doing! Hoping for the best for you with these little ones!

 

[Ryan P]

Awesome! I have never tried using an egg tumbler before. Didn't even know they existed until recently. You'll have to let me know how it goes. I am hoping my ram parents might surprise me and do everything right on their first try! So far so good! They removed the freshly hatched eggs into a pit they dug in the sand, away from the eggs with fungus. I expect them to move the wigglers another couple times before they start swimming.

If my ram parents do not get it right (PLEASE DONT LET THAT BE THE CASE) I might look into getting a tumbler. I have removed angelfish eggs before, but I did the whole meth blue and a bubbler thing.

Thanks for following in my new journey!!! I love the support and it is a lot more fun when you have people to enjoy it with! (since none of my family or friends understand the excitement of it)

I really was not intending to breed the, but yeah the excitement gets to you when see something like this lol. I only have 1 tank a 60 gallon community. And the first batch of eggs I had with them didn't last for 4hours and I think they got eaten. So 2nd batch I came in prepared. still unsure if this will be successful though.

and even my wife, she was ok with fishkeeping but really not in to until the rams laid eggs, is the one that's insisted to separate them and helped me build the DIY tumbler since the one I ordered has not arrived yet. Good luck to black ram they sure are interesting!

 

[bizaliz3]

Here are a couple spawning videos. Personally I like the longer one better but I included a shorter one too for those with a shorter attention span haha

 

[Dave125g]

I have to agree. I don't think I would like them jet black either. Black with a little blue (like yours) are beautiful.

 

[DioAquatics]

Congrats Biz! Can’t wait to see what the babies look like! I’ve seen pictures online of some that have black heads and vibrant blue bodies. Really stunning looking fish. I think jet black would be gorgeous also. When do we start making the list of who’s buying babies from you? lol

 

[JRS]

I am following. Very exciting! I wish you the best!

 

[jenmur]

Your Rams are beautiful! So following this! I can’t have any but still interested

 

[bizaliz3]

You can see the wigglers better this afternoon! The picture I took last night you could hardly see them.

They are in the back of the tank so I had to reach my arm around with my phone to capture the photo. I was one handed so luckily the phone takes a picture when I say a cheese!! Haha so I'm holding the camera behind my fish tank and shouting CHEESE!! Haha

 

[jenmur]

Hello little ones!!!

 

[bizaliz3]

 

[jenmur]

Someone is watching you

 

[Mcasella]

They are nice looking fish, I think crossing them into a line of electric blue with the black overlay would be stunning over the regular blue (does the orange and red show up on them still?).

 

[tfreema]

Yay!! Love seeing those little wigglers!

 

[Soocold]

This is so awesome. I definitely want some!

 

[chromedome52]

If they were developed in Israel, why are they being called German? I suppose you could call them Kosher Rams. ldman: Personally I would just refer to them as Black Rams.

I first expected them to be like real German Rams, with heavy black markings, but these are distinctly different, and darker. I find the dark pigment interesting. Most black genes are co-dominant, so if there is a solid black morph, these would be heterozygous for black. You would get some normal Rams, but also a few solid black fish. The fish would have to be solid black to breed true. But like BB Black Angelfish, they may also be weaker than the heterozygous fish.

Any blue spangling should appear on top of the black, as melanophores are the base layer of pigment in fish. Combining this with Electric Blue would probably produce a very different look. I would also want to find out what happens when they are crossed out with Golds. That could produce a very interesting result. Might take three or four generations to establish something like this.

 

[AquaticJ]

I’m working on getting these guys at the store I work at! They’re not too easy to get a hold of for even us, and we can get almost anything!

 

[DarkOne]

I’m working on getting these guys at the store I work at! They’re not too easy to get a hold of for even us, and we can get almost anything!

 

[AquaticJ]

That's false advertising because I can get them from our distributor, they’re just out currently.

 

[DarkOne]

That page was up a month ago so I guess more distributors have them now.

 

[Lucy]

Great thread. You just have a magic breeding touch. Best of luck!

 

[Dave125g]

Great thread. You just have a magic breeding touch. Best of luck!

Lol this is true. Fish go to bizs house to spawn.

 

[jenmur]

So far I’ve only seen them at one LFS here. We have 2 as well as many pet stores.

 

[jmaldo]

@bizaliz3
Congrats. Really enjoyed the spawning vids. What equipment did you use to shoot the vids? I recently had 2 spawns of Bolivian Rams. It was amazing to see them move the eggs then the wigglers from crater to crater, at first I thought, they were eating them. (Oh, No). And then finally to see the wigglers morph into fry. It is a very rewarding part of fish keeping few people get to experience. Let alone catch it on video.
As mentioned by others, I would definitely be interested in acquiring a pair, but, alas I feel like I'm in line at the DMV (Take a number) LOL
Thanks for sharing and Good Luck.

 

[bizaliz3]

Wigglers are still there this morning!! They are still in the same spot. The parents haven't moved them again yet, I am surprised by that. I am just glad they haven't eaten them!! I am still leaving the light on even though there are no predators. I have had angel pairs eat their eggs in the dark even when there were no threats. So, I don't want to risk anything!!

If they were developed in Israel, why are they being called German? I suppose you could call them Kosher Rams. ldman: Personally I would just refer to them as Black Rams.

I first expected them to be like real German Rams, with heavy black markings, but these are distinctly different, and darker. I find the dark pigment interesting. Most black genes are co-dominant, so if there is a solid black morph, these would be heterozygous for black. You would get some normal Rams, but also a few solid black fish. The fish would have to be solid black to breed true. But like BB Black Angelfish, they may also be weaker than the heterozygous fish.

Any blue spangling should appear on top of the black, as melanophores are the base layer of pigment in fish. Combining this with Electric Blue would probably produce a very different look. I would also want to find out what happens when they are crossed out with Golds. That could produce a very interesting result. Might take three or four generations to establish something like this.

YAY! Chromedome I love when you get involved in my breeding threads! I just love it. Thanks for your input!
I was wondering if the black might be co-dominant. That makes perfect sense the way you put it. Also, I do remember the fact that double black angels tend to be weaker. And with that being said, I might not want to shoot for homozygous pure black rams. I should get some from this pair anyway, but I don't think I want to attempt a breeding pair of homozygous black rams if it might mean weaker. How sure are you of that? or were you just speculating?

With the iridescent blue speckling is still present on a jet black one, I bet that will look really cool! I also kind of like the idea of getting some regular rams in the mix. They are quite stunning too!
If I am successful at this, and the babies do well in my tanks, I will definitely look into mixing them with electric blues or golds and play with the color morphs a bit. But I need to make sure the babies can handle my pH. A lot of what I read indicates that the babies need lower pH. Mine is in the mid 7 range. So we will see!

I am definitely getting ahead of myself here. HAHA It is only day 4 with wigglers. As we discussed in my angel breeding thread recently...there is no celebrating until you see those big fat orange bellies after their first feeding!

(does the orange and red show up on them still?).

On my current ones? yes. The babies, no idea.

I’m working on getting these guys at the store I work at! They’re not too easy to get a hold of for even us, and we can get almost anything!

AquaticJ my LFS has gotten them twice in the last 6 months. I wonder what distributer he uses. He won't release that info to me. Its a big secret I guess. haha Are you the same way with your distributors?
DarkOne If he is looking for black rams for his store, he certainly can't be paying $30 each! lol They should really update their website though. Claiming they are the only ones in the US isn't the most honest thing for them to say....Also, are they even considered a "distributor" if they are not selling them in bulk????

Great thread. You just have a magic breeding touch. Best of luck!

Lol this is true. Fish go to bizs house to spawn.

Thanks Lucy
I really don't know what it is guys! haha. The only thing I can think of is I just simply have very desirable water for breeding or something?? I mean...I do give my babies a lot of TLC and attention...more than a lot of the bigger breeders do.
The rams are my 5th different species I have bred. Started with dwarf crayfish, then angels, then plecos, then EBAs and now the rams. I hope the ram babies do as well as the others did!!! SOO BADDD!! haha It is going to be SO fun to see the different colors they produce!
I made the comment before about not wanting to disappoint and I was assured that wouldn't be the case....and I DO realize that you all wouldn't be disappointed in ME if it didn't work out....but I get the impression a lot of you are equally fascinated and curious and excited about the results of this pair! And I want to succeed for everyone! not just me! haha

@bizaliz3
Congrats. Really enjoyed the spawning vids. What equipment did you use to shoot the vids? I recently had 2 spawns of Bolivian Rams. It was amazing to see them move the eggs then the wigglers from crater to crater, at first I thought, they were eating them. (Oh, No). And then finally to see the wigglers morph into fry. It is a very rewarding part of fish keeping few people get to experience. Let alone catch it on video.
As mentioned by others, I would definitely be interested in acquiring a pair, but, alas I feel like I'm in line at the DMV (Take a number) LOL
Thanks for sharing and Good Luck.

Thank you thank you!! Ya, I was very lucky to get the chance to watch them spawn! And even get such good video of it!! It is incredibly rewarding! I am really glad you enjoyed them!
The only "equipment" I use for my photos and videos is my phone. Samsung Galaxy 8. Pretty amazing huh?
I love watching the parents move their young as well. I wish I had gotten video of them moving the freshly hatched wigglers to their pit. But I missed out on that one. (still surprised these rams haven't moved them again yet, I have a feeling they will get moved at some point before they day is over) I was the same way with my first breeding pair of angels. When the dad sucked the babies into his mouth to put them back on their leaf, I yelled and tapped the glass. like HEY NO DONT DO THAT!! hehe. I have a video of that experience as well. Its quite funny.

 

[chromedome52]

I was wondering if the black might be co-dominant. That makes perfect sense the way you put it. Also, I do remember the fact that double black angels tend to be weaker. And with that being said, I might not want to shoot for homozygous pure black rams. I should get some from this pair anyway, but I don't think I want to attempt a breeding pair of homozygous black rams if it might mean weaker. How sure are you of that? or were you just speculating?

It is speculation based on working with abnormal black strains of several species, as well as getting data on them from other sources. There are certain color variations that seem to follow specific rules regardless of the species in which they occur. I cannot think of a single species in which black pigment is not co-dominant with the normal color variety. However, when you start combining the abnormal black pigment with other color mutations, strange things can happen.

BTW, I forgot to comment on the videos, which were very good. It is always fascinating to watch the process. I've sat for an hour watching a pair of fish spawn, only to realize that I could have been photographing it all that time!

 

[Dave125g]

You mentioned your ph was a bit on the high side. I would think that since this generation was born in your higher ph they should have no problem breeding in it as well. Like so many other species. If you recall when I was breeding the diamond tetras. My ph is 8.2, all the info I read on there breeding they need 6.8.

 

[bizaliz3]

However, when you start combining the abnormal black pigment with other color mutations, strange things can happen.

BTW, I forgot to comment on the videos, which were very good. It is always fascinating to watch the process. I've sat for an hour watching a pair of fish spawn, only to realize that I could have been photographing it all that time!

Do you think I should avoid too much crossing of color mutations? I don't want to do anything irresponsible

Glad you liked the videos! I know what you mean, I have watched fun things in my tanks before and then thought after the fact..SHOOT, I should have recorded that! haha I am usually pretty on top of it though. I always have my phone close by if I am doing any tank-watching. What's funny is when there is something I really want to get a photo of and my phone is in the other room. I sprint to the phone and sprint back like a crazy person....but typically I miss whatever I was hoping to capture.

But ya, watching fish spawn is one of the most enjoyable, fascinating and rewarding experiences.

 

[bizaliz3]

You mentioned your ph was a bit on the high side. I would think that since this generation was born in your higher ph they should have no problem breeding in it as well. Like so many other species. If you recall when I was breeding the diamond tetras. My ph is 8.2, all the info I read on there breeding they need 6.8.

I am just being paranoid probably. Its not like the mid 7 range is insanely high or anything. I just can't stop thinking about all the different testimonies I have read about people unable to succeed breeding rams. Even real experienced breeders. I just feel like this is going TOO well.....I am waiting for everything to crash and burn!!! lol

But I am trying to stay positive and confident. The pile of wigglers look excellent on day 4 I am still wondering if I should plan to remove the babies or the parents once they start free swimming. I'd love to leave them with the parents for a bit.....I don't want to move the parents. And I worry that a tank move might be too much for sensitive baby rams.....I guess I will just play it by ear!

Side note, this tank is just a couple months old and beginning a terrible TERRIBLE new tank diatom explosion. A bunch of hair algae too for some reason (I have never gotten hair algae like this in any other tank) Those two things aren't harmful to the fish or anything, right? its just ugly?

 

[Dave125g]

I think you are being paranoid. You know algae is just harmful to our eyes lol. The hair algae is actually a good source of food for some fry. I can't speak to the baby rams though. Nor can I speak to weather or not the parents will be ok with the free swimming fry. I know experienced angels and Bolivian rams are ok with free swimmers. I guess just watch close when they start swimming in the next few days and see.

 

[bizaliz3]

I think you are being paranoid. You know algae is just harmful to our eyes lol. The hair algae is actually a good source of food for some fry. I can't speak to the baby rams though. Nor can I speak to weather or not the parents will be ok with the free swimming fry. I know experienced angels and Bolivian rams are ok with free swimmers. I guess just watch close when they start swimming in the next few days and see.

haha. I know. My paranoia is through the roof right now!

Ya, I will just play it by ear. If I notice the free swimming population getting thinner...I will step and move either the babies or the parents.

But first I need to get them free swimming!!! lol

 

[DarkOne]

DarkOne If he is looking for black rams for his store, he certainly can't be paying $30 each! lol They should really update their website though. Claiming they are the only ones in the US isn't the most honest thing for them to say....Also, are they even considered a "distributor" if they are not selling them in bulk????

I found them when I was looking for a couple of unique medium sized plecos (6-9"). They're close enough to me that I could go pick them up and they had a pretty good selection. I ended up buying from a LFS that was closer but kept looking at their website to see what they had in stock. I just remembered they had Black rams.

haha. I know. My paranoia is through the roof right now!

Ya, I will just play it by ear. If I notice the free swimming population getting thinner...I will step and move either the babies or the parents.

But first I need to get them free swimming!!! lol

When my EBA had their first batch of fry, I sucked up a little more than half just before they were free swimming and put them in a Marina breeder box with foam covering the output. It was easier to feed and shared the same water as the main tank.

 

[Dave125g]

I just realized something. You said you were keeping there light on at night, just I case? That's why the algae brake out ,I would think.

 

[bizaliz3]

When my EBA had their first batch of fry, I sucked up a little more than half just before they were free swimming and put them in a Marina breeder box with foam covering the output. It was easier to feed and shared the same water as the main tank.

I have used that box too. Ive got a couple of them.

My concern with the rams is they like really really warm water. Especially the babies. And no matter how fast I have the water flowing through the breeder box, the temp drops in that box because it is out of the tank. It doesn't go down by much, but enough to concern me with sensitive ram babies. And I don't even WANT the water flowing through the box too fast because that makes it hard for the babies to move around. So really, the temp in the box gets a tad bit cooler than the tank. And I don't like that. I will not be able to keep the HOB breeder box at 82 degrees like the tank. So I don't think I am going to try that.

I just realized something. You said you were keeping there light on at night, just I case? That's why the algae brake out ,I would think.

Well ya...obviously. haha. Although Ive read that diatoms actually flourish with less light. I am sure the diatoms are due to the tank being new. But the hair algae....ya, I am sure it is the light. BUT I have left lights on 24/7 frequently for my angel parents as well. No hair algae in the other tanks. But I don't care. As long as it isn't bad for the fish!

 

[Dave125g]

Agree.

 

[shutterbug13]

If you need to, could you try one of those breeder nets that sits in the tank? Something like this one:

 

[tfreema]

I am just being paranoid probably. Its not like the mid 7 range is insanely high or anything. I just can't stop thinking about all the different testimonies I have read about people unable to succeed breeding rams. Even real experienced breeders. I just feel like this is going TOO well.....I am waiting for everything to crash and burn!!! lol

But I am trying to stay positive and confident. The pile of wigglers look excellent on day 4 I am still wondering if I should plan to remove the babies or the parents once they start free swimming. I'd love to leave them with the parents for a bit.....I don't want to move the parents. And I worry that a tank move might be too much for sensitive baby rams.....I guess I will just play it by ear!

Side note, this tank is just a couple months old and beginning a terrible TERRIBLE new tank diatom explosion. A bunch of hair algae too for some reason (I have never gotten hair algae like this in any other tank) Those two things aren't harmful to the fish or anything, right? its just ugly?

You could try setting up a small tank and just pulling a few and leave the rest with the parents?

I have used that box too. Ive got a couple of them.

My concern with the rams is they like really really warm water. Especially the babies. And no matter how fast I have the water flowing through the breeder box, the temp drops in that box because it is out of the tank. It doesn't go down by much, but enough to concern me with sensitive ram babies. And I don't even WANT the water flowing through the box too fast because that makes it hard for the babies to move around. So really, the temp in the box gets a tad bit cooler than the tank. And I don't like that. I will not be able to keep the HOB breeder box at 82 degrees like the tank. So I don't think I am going to try that.



Well ya...obviously. haha. Although Ive read that diatoms actually flourish with less light. I am sure the diatoms are due to the tank being new. But the hair algae....ya, I am sure it is the light. BUT I have left lights on 24/7 frequently for my angel parents as well. No hair algae in the other tanks. But I don't care. As long as it isn't bad for the fish!

I noticed hair algae on my sword in the new 75 gallon last night and I have light schedule set for only 2 hours on at a time with 2 hours in between for 12 hours, then 12 hours off. It’s a test to see if I could control the dreaded brown diatom bloom. It has been greatly reduced versus other tanks, but not eliminated and now I have hair algae. I will probably remove those leaves in hopes it will not pop up on too many.

So ya, hair algae probably would have happened even if lights were not on 24/7. Just maybe not as bad.

 

[bizaliz3]

If you need to, could you try one of those breeder nets that sits in the tank? Something like this one:

Definitely worth looking in to! Maybe the parents will surprise me though! either way, the babies will have to be removed at some point for growing out. I'd like them to do their growing out in one of my 46 bows. A 25g is a bit small for grow out unless I am only growing out a few. But i'd rather wait for them to get a little stronger before doing that. So again, I just have to play this all by ear.

You could try setting up a small tank and just pulling a few and leave the rest with the parents?

This is what I usually do with angels. Let the parents keep some and move some. I have a 10 gallon with 2 week old angels in it. They can move up to a larger grow out in the next couple weeks. So I can totally use that 10G for the ram babies. But they would have to be ok with their parents for just a bit first! Typically I take the majority of the babies and leave just a small# with the parents. But with the rams, and my fear of their sensitivity, I will likely only move a small portion to the 10G (at first anyway)

For emergencies, I do still have a 10G and a 20G not set up (they are the two tanks I took down for my daughter's new 55) So depending on how things time out...I may end up with another tank on my floor. haha I hate having tanks on my floor!!!

 

[jenmur]

So exciting! . Glad the wigglers are still around. How often do you think the parents will move them?

 

[bizaliz3]

So exciting! . Glad the wigglers are still around. How often do you think the parents will move them?

It sure is!!! :-D
I am heading home for my lunch break in a moment. When I get there, I honestly expect them to be moved. But we'll see. My angels tend to do it once per day.