Angelfish breeding project

Hello Fishlore !

very excited that my Angels have paired and have already had their first spawn.

However it’s just the beginning and will take any and all advice as I go forward. SparkyJones has given me lots of details of their experience in a “I thought my angel was sick thread“. Turns out that while he maybe a little injured may not be as sick as I thought.

Here is the scenario : 4 angels growing up in a 55 gl. 1 all black veil and 2 platinum 1 pearl coat platinum.

Other stocking 6 pearl danios (they got to go it’s way to warm for them …just so hard to catch).
3 Clown Plecos - these are wood chewers and max 3” mine are all about full grown.

Tank parameters in the 55 are ok. 0 ammonia 0 nitrates however closer to 40ppm nitrites. My tap is around 20-30 so hard to keep lower. There are lots of plants - photos to be added - but there is a spray bar so the flow is minimal (part of why plants are always covered in brownish gunk) as they don’t move around enough To ”shake” it off. the tank currently has a pink glow from all the red plants and maybe the fin and body cure I am just finishing up. (Probably did not need, but now need to finish).

speaking of - the black veil had some marks on it’s head about a month ago and parasite was possible probable cause so API general cure was used. Now 3 weeks later he has some new marks so I panic dosed the API fin and body. …just some background.

Now I have identified that the large platinum (male) and the pearl coat (female) have not only paired but already spawned. The black veil is also male and was dominant until parasite treatment time. The final platinum is unknown sex - I believe female making 2-2 but not 100% on it.

so what to do is the question now.

thoughts on moving current fish.
Pair can have the 55 and I can move the black veil and the unknown sex platinum To:
Tanks available -
40 gallon breeder would not be ready until tomorrow at the earliest. (Regrouping from guppie failure)
29 gallon “tall” it’s 30“ 12” 18” Second 29 gallon will be available in about a month as rainbow fish fry move out.

The breeder is more overall space the 29 taller. I am leaning towards the 40

whatever tank is not used for moving Angels will hold rainbow shark and pearl danios that need to move from other places etc.

opinions on tanks
breeding pair in 55 with three clown plecos only?
other “pair” duo in 40 or 29 ?

what other tanks/equipment do you recommend? Should I have a couple 20s or even 30s set up?

My intention right now is to chill (good advice again from SparkyJones) and see how it goes over next few days. I want to be prepared for what’s next so please experience and options on placement on current fish and future equipment needed.

I’ll be asking more about raising the fry as I go.

thanks !

eggs


dad



mom

 

So update here !

Water change and tested the 29 - added heater and now no more excuses -

I moved the pair. Was scared to do it. I hate netting and moving fish lol the more I do it the more I get used to it. These two though …would not leave each other so they got scooped up together. Did a little hiding for a few but have cruised the tank and seem a bit settled, they have also eaten all the lil snails that had built up from no tetras.

they had fungus and tried to move they eggs but then either a pleco or they self destructed them next day. Since then they have guarded their “corner” and I say the male grab a clown pleco by the fin and pull it. It got away and is fine … but answered my question on clowns and breeding Angel. Also the large black one was looking better but seems much much more at ease with them out in just a short time.


the New tank has a few vertical driftwood and a red slate propped up against the glass. lots o plants …so will see if they pick a new spot i Will update on their next try. I’m just glad they are moved.

 

Small marks can be due to angels pecking at each other. With 4 you will have some fighting. Typically angles will lay the eggs on the some plants - after about 5 or so days the eggs will hatch and produce wrigglers (these are little angels that can't swim); they will then move the wrigglers to a new location. After 2 or 3 days they will begin to swim. People who breed angles will do one of three things:
1) remove the breeding pair to their own tank
2) remove the eggs and put them in a container with a air stone and bit of meth blue (to prevent fungus); when the eggs hatch you have to make sure to remove the meth blue via water change. Once the angels are free swimming (and not before) you can start feeding them bbs (newly hatched brine shrimp).
3) remove the wrigglers.
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It is almost impossible for angels to raise frys in a tank with other fishes but they can get them to the wriggler stage (or at least mine could).
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Also nearly all cichlid i have bred actually learn to do a better job each time they lay eggs. The first time my angles couldln't even fertilize the eggs correctly. It took them 4 or 5 trys to get the eggs to the wriggler stage.
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Other angels in the tank will steal the eggs (to eat) or wrigglers. At least in my aquarium that was the case. Frequently one angel would distract the female while another would quickly charge in and eat as many eggs as it could grab before the female noticed.
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On tank options; a 29 is ok for a breeding pair short term but i would not leave an angel in anything smaller than a 55 long term. A 40 breeder is typically too shallow for adult male angels; but a bare bottom 40 might be ok for a little while and females are typically quite a bit smaller and will work in a 40b. Putting a growing angel in a tank that is too small can stunt it and putting an adult angel in a tank that is too small can make it 'depress' over time.
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I can't comment on clown pleco with angels. I had some pleco with my angels and it was mostly ok and clown pleco are pretty small but if they are mostly nocturnal and if they are hungry they will go after whatever they can find. if you keep them well fed then this is less likely to be an issue.
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Believe it or not leaving the room light on at night really helps (in my room i have dimmer on my lights and at night set it to the lowest setting - tank lights go off per normal day/night cycle. Fishes have very good vision and a low light helps here.

 

Thanks for the tips. I’m a few attempts away to be ready for fry so Im expecting them to fail a few. They are all by themselves in the 30.25” x12.5” x 18.75. Pretty sure this is a common size breeding tank, but these ones have plenty of space so far. I will need to set up some kind of grow out set up for babies. I’m thinking of getting a 30 gallon breeder for baby size (up to nickel + maybe’ and the. maybe use my other 29 as grow out for ones I may want to keep. But way ahead of myself . I’m also waiting on a better heater the ones I like are kind of expensive and I really need 3 ..one for Angel breeding, one for new 40 tetra, and 40 “leftover” I hate the silver tubes ones I have. They are hard to set and 2/3 have Air bubbles inside the glass. My temp goals are 82 breeding tank,79/ 80 Angel non breeding, 78/79 for tetras and a little lower in 76-77 in the “leftover” danios and shark going in it for now. I digress.

in my ssignature you can see the set up they have several flat surface choices most of which will be easy for me to remove for egg collection possibly etc. I may add an air stone but don’t think it really needed right now. My big concern is that the 5abk is on a high traffic area meaning I walk past it all day … they seem ok but at times will spazz when startled. I think They will adjust. Thanks again and I will update as I go!

My Tanks Updated - new tanks new photos. | Members Fish Tanks Forum | 521179

 

Good luck. My angels never seem to be bothered by my room movement. With a dedicated tank you should be able to leave the eggs and eventually the frys with the parents - at least for a few weeks.

 

Making the first try in the new tank Today is day 2.5/ 3 and there are already a few white ones. It Will likely be failed but it’s a first go in the new spot. They chose the same driftwood- I moved from the old tank. They are much more chill at least for now although they are eating the out of my cardinal plants. All of my angels are plant eating two are lil plant monsters - the big black one and the female They tear it up. Anyway if it progresses I’ll update !

 

My angles; thankfully; never bothered the plants.

 

Well well well ! The two in the 55 gallon are now also a pair … well not Exactly..

First the two platinum are trying the same driftwood for the third time now. Day 2 and there is fungus on 4-6 Ill bet they are gone tomorrow.. we shall see. Also all the rest are clear...so maybe not fertilized.

The other two the largest black one and the original “unknown” now proved to be female have eggs. I don’t know how interested the male is right now and it is still being very picky eating and harasses her at times when she try’s to eat. They still do a nip chase routine as well, but mostly he ignores her. He has been near the eggs a few times since I noticed them this morning but not much more then a pass by.

Same driftwood can see the white ones.





Using the filter intake glass is gross but you can see them mostly.


will update as we go.

 

clear is good (fertilized); white is not fertilized. Don't worry about fungus on the eggs; the parents will take care of it - even if you move the eggs to their own container fungus is normal and not a big deal.

 

First two attempts they all turned white and then got eaten around day 3/4


they placed them so high up that doing the water change is going to be minimal…

 

Hey new2fishlovinit, glad to see you decided to give it a go! I don't know how I missed this thread all this time.

from my experience, if the eggs don't all turn white in the first 12 hours after laying, then fertilization worked out. it's hard to tell in the first couple hours, there's a couple white ones that appear, the rest are clear and viable still for whatever the reason, but that first 12 hours is where either it takes or doesn't. the immediate white ones in the first hour or so were unfertilized, the ones that turn white in the first 12 hours it's a development problem with the eggs and just didn't work out for the embryo. After that, there will be a few white, but then the fungus comes if they don't eat the white eggs and the fungus will take over and kill all of it and the parents will abandon the attempt and eat them to start over.

I really found that 80-82F temperature, it keeps the hatch time right around 3 days or less, and free swimming in 3 days tops after hatching, which in general beats the fungus growth and take over without using the methelyene blue. That's if you just leave them with the parents of course.

if you pull the eggs from the parents to a 1 gallon rearing jar with an airline and airstone, I found that chlorinated tap water was the best antifungal and it will offgas the chlorine by the time the eggs hatch, (You can't feed the fry in the jar, it's not cycled, I learned that the hard way!) but they can stay there until freeswimming and ready for first feeding before a transfer to a cycled tank and then feed them.
but it still helps if you have the time and steady hand to knock off and remove the white eggs in the jar every 24 hours, even less fungus to grow and spread. but it's tedious.

I'm gonna be honest with you, my pair doesn't fight each other at all, they are big and lay eggs in a 10 gallon bare tank or a 20 gallon long bare tank and share the space in either without issues between them. 20 gallon High, not long, is really the smallest a pair should go into. I just have what I have, and make do with what I got.

I like the smaller tank for the fry once they are freeswimming, easy for them to reach the food without expending too much energy swimming around and easy for water changes. However, once they hit about 8 weeks, it's pretty cramped and you're doing daily water changes to keep the water nice.
At that point, I really like 55g or bigger for a grow out. and If I could, I'd have more than one so I could keep more. by week 8 they are looking like mini angels and nobody is found dead anymore, that's a good time for their move to a larger grow out or grow outs, depending on how you do it.

Ideally a good rule of thumb for grow out is:

• dime size bodies - 2 angelfish per gallon
• Nickel size bodies - 1 angelfish per gallon
• Quarter size bodies - 1 angelfish per 2 gallons
• Silver dollar size bodies - 1 angelfish per 3 gallons
• Adult ready to be paired - 1 angelfish per 5 gallons
• Full grown breeding pair - 20 gallon tall

You can start selling at dime onward if you have a place to sell them, to lower the numbers numbers. You can cull to make room for the ones you really want to keep as they grow. figure if you had 3 55 gallon tanks, you could probably sort and keep 350 up to dime size and 80-100 or so up to quarter size between the 3 tanks. double that if you were willing to do the work and water changes for the tank being overstocked. In a 55g, you could keep 12 unpaired male matures and they'd get along fine, maybe 15-20 if keeping and eye and doing water changes before things get bad. If you put in the work, you can do it with less space and less tank, but you have to be committed to water changes and vacuuming the tank bottom, and culling for any reason, like slow growth rate. if they are runts, if they stay with the group, they will always be behind the average and way behind the ones that thrive culling can be an effective tool to limit how many you have to keep and ensure you keep and raise only the best of the spawn. they have hundreds to thousands per spawn and will spawn every 15 days if the eggs and fry are removed from them, you have to draw a line somewhere or open a fish room!buy insane amounts of equipment.
Just a fact, a single 55g can be used for dime size, nickel, quarter, keeping up with water quality and doing changes, but you have to reduce the numbers somehow as they grow to keep them growing. they are pretty darn hardy at dime size to nickel size.

tough choices must be made on which are the best examples, and which need to be sacrificed for the good of the rest. in the wild the vast majority are getting predated on. unless you have a huge operation, you really can't keep them all.


Now lets get to freeswimmers! and worry about the rest once they've been freeswimming and eating for a week.

It's fun right?

 

BTW - many thanks for replys very helpful to have some others experiences shared.

I’m in it. I have a 55 gallon ready to use as a grow out - it will only be 1/2 ish full as it has a cracked brace/repaired now but I just don’t want to push it and to get to ok size I don’t need it full. I plan to run it bare tank with 2 large sponge filters that will be running in existing tanks starting this weekend. I need one more mid sized tank for smallest stage maybe ..I would love to leave them in with parents but we shall see. First need to get past first few days. I did turn the temp on the breeding tank to 80 I can go up and the 55 was at 79 so will up that one as well. …after I check if clown plecos will be ok.
is it odd my one male is still so disinterested and semi Aggressive?

 

BTW - many thanks for replys very helpful to have some others experiences shared.

I’m in it. I have a 55 gallon ready to use as a grow out - it will only be 1/2 ish full as it has a cracked brace/repaired now but I just don’t want to push it and to get to ok size I don’t need it full. I plan to run it bare tank with 2 large sponge filters that will be running in existing tanks starting this weekend. I need one more mid sized tank for smallest stage maybe ..I would love to leave them in with parents but we shall see. First need to get past first few days. I did turn the temp on the breeding tank to 80 I can go up and the 55 was at 79 so will up that one as well. …after I check if clown plecos will be ok.
is it odd my one male is still so disinterested and semi Aggressive?

Not really. They kind of settle in and go from supper aggressive defending eggs to easygoing and passive when they aren't on duty. Some can be downright neglectful after fertilization and if the female thinks he won't do a good job protecting the eggs she'll chase him off of them also. If that's the case he should be removed just to leave her with the eggs alone or jar rear the eggs yourself. Every fish is different and some pairs work well, some pairs don't last and need to be separated and a different male introduced to the female. If she don't trust he'll do a good job she won't let him get near them after fertilization. Best to keep an eye out for that each spawn just in case she sours on him, tanks are too small when a female is protecting eggs, shunning a male, and he can't get away from her.

You can re-pair the female with a different male if you think a different one would be a better match. She'll generally pick the strongest most aggressive to breed with if she has a choice, but any port in a storm works for her also. If he's removed, she'll pick a different one in a spawn of two and pair up there instead sometimes even if you just give her the one option.

Pairing and bonding is important to keep the peace with the pair but she'll replace a male that disappears in the wild, and breeders will pick mates to get desired results or separate a pair if its not working out instead of leaving it up to chance. Many times they will pair up just being put together and left alone to pair.
You can leave them with the parents for about 2 weeks or so after freeswimming, after that the fry get kind of big and always hungry and they will pick at the parents and pester them and it just gets worse the bigger they get until either your pair is raggedy, or the pair has lost it with the nips and start nipping back to stop being pestered. It's just starting at 2-3 weeks and mild, but it gets worse and worse as the fry grow. Again it's one of those situations that is inescapable in a tank that they could get away from in the wild.
It is really cool though when a cloud of freeswimmers hanging around mom and dad for the first couple weeks and watching it, it just gets old for mom and dad when the fish are big enough to start nipping at slimecoat, fins and scales.

 

Well this batch is another scrap - try 3 for platinum pair. All white this morning and cleaned up by this afternoon.

Batch one for 55gallon pair is about 1/2 solid white day3 ish .. its harder to see as they are wrapped behind filter stem and that tank is just darker.

I may use my 40 gallon breeder that only has 6 danios to raise a few juveniles and see if I can reset the dynamics (pick out a new male or two and let her pick ?) if this pair in the 55 does not work out. He is staying clear and while I have not seen her chase him off it would not surprise me, he was getting beat up by smaller male when I did not see. She seems to be in the whatever is available … see how it goes. He is still growing for sure - gets silvery scales as he expands then black fills in its kind of cool and scary cause so,e times I have I thought it’s disease. Has a line across him now. He is also still very picky eating - plants , snails, snails eggs, and frozen or some freeze dried foods aND he is teaching same behavior to female. If she try’s to eat food he does not like he harasses her, she ignored new pellets I tried couple days ago…

I will have A space for them if we get to week 2 ish but i think I may be a few trys away.

 

You want mine? Lol. These were laid in the last 4 hours (did a waterchange at 3pm and these were there at 7pm) and the spawn is massive. Gotta be 400+ just stacked on top of each other. Batch 4 since I started raising a batch of fry 11 weeks ago. Give it time, it gets better each spawn.

And I don't want to hear that a 10 gallon tank don't work from people. It works just fine if the pair continues to get along and aren't fighting each other! The only difference is majority of the time they choose to lay eggs on one of the horizontal slates instead of the vertical one.


I'll keep these eggs and update a picture at 12 and 24 hours, maybe 36 just to give you an idea of how many turn white by those time points and on if yours are working out or not compared to my proven pair thats been successful. I turned off my heater so water is like 77F,,,, to slow them down between spawns. So these eggs won't hatch quickly and fungus will likely take over but I'll pull these for food before they hatch also so it don't go to waste. White eggs are fine, fuzzy eggs ain't good food.

As far as picky eaters go, I don't give them choices. Flake works fine and they eat it. I'm sure live foods can put on weight and help with spawning and spawn recovery, but when I tried it, it just seemed like they wanted the junkiest foods and would ignore the staple food with the vitamins and stuff. My dog will take fatty meat and and bone marrow and table scrap and ignore her food also. It's why I don't give her those things and she just eats her food and stopped the picky strikes. Lol.

 

Lol on the last part. he eats mostly what’s in the tank..plants and snails it seems. They will try again this one is a scrap for both.

 

Are you sure your pair is two males and not female/female (which sometimes happens) ?

 

No I am pretty sure of two pairs now 2 boys 2 girls.

had an unknown for a bit - the two known males had squared off and the black one lost - first pair formed and then I move them. Now the unknown is laying eggs so .. not unknown

 

Ok so, grain of salt. Keep in mind my pair is beyond spawn 12 at this point, and have been successful before. Also keep in mind I keep the tanks VERY controlled, the pair alone, bare bottom and just a sponge filter, a heater and spawning slates its well cycled and nitrates always under 5ppm, that tank gets 2x a week water changes of 30% doesn't even matter what the nitrates are, I'm taking them down and waste out.

1st picture, that's the first few hours of spawning. 2nd picture is after 12 hours. 3rd picture is 24 hours.





This one is 36 hours



I'll go out 1 more day on this. And just do a pictures at 7am for 36H tomorrow for hour 48H. After that I gotta get rid of these eggs or they will hatch.
Please take pictures of a spawn, see what they are doing and how the eggs are progressing.

Like from these pictures I can tell the pair isn't eating anything currently to get rid of white eggs a couple that were on the right edge of the slate. If they don't, the fungus will grow and take over and turn a lot more white, it will blanket the eggs and wrigglers and suffocate them if they do hatch.
So this is day one, but it wasn't like this on the first half dozen spawns. Many many more were white by now, they stepped up their game especially the male ( he missed at least half the first four times or so,, and I stepped up my water quality game also.

*Updated for this mornings 36 hour picture. One more tonight at 48 hours. At about 80F-82F they should hatch right around 72 hours. so I won't go the last day just in case and feed this batch to my other fish after I take the 2 day picture.

 

And here is 48 hours, 2 days time.



This picture the white eggs are now halo'ed with fungus, if they were to hatch tomorrow on day 3, most would make it out of wriggler to free swimmer, especially if the parents move them. But because I'm cooler water at 77F they won't hatch until maybe day 4 to day 5 and by then that fungus is going to be blanketing the entire spawn and just the edges maybe survive. Once the fungus is covering them the ones under will be turning white so between hour 48 and 72 it's kind of critical to get them hatched if it goes beyond 72 hours to hatch the fungus will have most of it and likely the parents will eat the whole thing to start over in two weeks.

That's were people try jar rearing and removing white eggs every 24 hours before they fungus, or the methelyene blue or chlorinated water to ward off fungus, myself included.

 

Many thanks for all the detail very informative.

next spawn I will get they times and some photos and see how it goes. My spawns being early and the fish semi juvenile have much less volume and they seem to scrap within first 48 hours of so. I’m not hugely worried if they take there time and as long as not stressed I’m ok not having babies for a bit (won’t be harvesting for jar raising etc). However I want to be ready if there is a success or if I am ready to try full on. My sponge filters are seasoning in other tanks and I’m debating on grow out tank. Really don’t want to use that broken 55. it’s in this bar is the chlorine I have had to switch to using my python directly from the sink and dosing the tank with prime. I was using 5 gallon jugs ..but on as many tanks as I have I couldn’t anymore. So all my fish are getting a short chlorine dose ..ugh .. every time I water change.

Again thanks for detail and I’m going to keep updating - could be a good thread for others to reference as well !

 

Many thanks for all the detail very informative.

next spawn I will get they times and some photos and see how it goes. My spawns being early and the fish semi juvenile have much less volume and they seem to scrap within first 48 hours of so. I’m not hugely worried if they take there time and as long as not stressed I’m ok not having babies for a bit (won’t be harvesting for jar raising etc). However I want to be ready if there is a success or if I am ready to try full on. My sponge filters are seasoning in other tanks and I’m debating on grow out tank. Really don’t want to use that broken 55. it’s in this bar is the chlorine I have had to switch to using my python directly from the sink and dosing the tank with prime. I was using 5 gallon jugs ..but on as many tanks as I have I couldn’t anymore. So all my fish are getting a short chlorine dose ..ugh .. every time I water change.

Again thanks for detail and I’m going to keep updating - could be a good thread for others to reference as well !

The prime is almost instant. dose a bit before beginning to fill and then for the volume of the water while filling and it should be fine. I dose Prime into the container for the volume, fill it with water and pour direct into the tank without waiting and no issues for years.

 

I’ve read that it’s safe and fairly instant but still makes me feel ick. I
do enjoy the ease .. I don’t use the vacuum aspect of python, just to fill. I like the control of smaller siphon and buckets. For filling so so much easier. First time I did it freaked the fish out they were expecting one thing and got another ! Im improving my technique each time. As the shut off was part of the vacuum I have to walk the hose from sink to tank with a bucket kind of makes a splash on the floor when I move from bucket to tank .., I digress. I will update after next attempt!

 

I’ve read that it’s safe and fairly instant but still makes me feel ick. I
do enjoy the ease .. I don’t use the vacuum aspect of python, just to fill. I like the control of smaller siphon and buckets. For filling so so much easier. First time I did it freaked the fish out they were expecting one thing and got another ! Im improving my technique each time. As the shut off was part of the vacuum I have to walk the hose from sink to tank with a bucket kind of makes a splash on the floor when I move from bucket to tank .., I digress. I will update after next attempt!

water changes are a problem, I'd say once a tank is 40g and above really. it becomes so much more of a chore when it's 10g or more per change and everyone looking for an easier way. I do a 20% on my 10 or 20 gallon almost daily, it's a 10 minute job to drain and refill each.
I do a 20% on my 72g and it's an hour job, the filling part goes fast, but taking water out goes slow. I've got a big vacuum siphon, but I suppose there's probably bigger available. It makes light work to remove a 3 gallon bucket of water on a small tank, and vacuum and a bucket back in, but when the 20% is 15 gallons that's 5 buckets, and 5 buckets back, at 10 mins a pop. I saw those python things, but where my tanks are, they aren't near a faucet at all and I would need 100Ft of hose, they want $150 for one of those and I ain't feeling it. LOL
Speaking of hose, that was what I used when I drained or filled the 72g. I've got enough of that to go around the house from the outside that works to just take water out. and put it back from the outside faucet, same like a python I suppose. kind of wish I had a faucet closer to the tanks.

if water changes were easier, people would do them all the time probably, I dread the 1 hour each day for the 72g (It's severe OTS and I been trying to bring it back slowly to keep the fish in it instead of starting over but that's another story). Yeah. the hour to change 20% is what deterred me from doing the water changes and got me into the lazy habit of just topping off for evaporation instead. I need to build something. hahaha

 

Hello, just to keep it updated today started another cycle - pretty cool both happen in different tanks with in hours of each other.
The pair in the 55 gallon was in process around 2:30. I got to watch from around the corner for a bit. When I came in the room they stopped so I left and peaked 5 mins later. The other pair waited until closer to lights out about an hour ago and I’m leaving them to it. They both picked the same spots again.

 

Man that's awesome. If you can keep them spawning together and put the fry together it's just like raising the one big batch! Lol. Good luck!

 

Another attempt starting site was having issues so never updated last one. The pair in the 55 gallon picked a piece of driftwood I had just thrown in the tank to stay soaked…guess it’s staying for now. Both are on exact same schedule spawn was with hour of each other this time. I’m at 24 hours now. Lights do not come on for a few hours yet so will see.

 

I'd still suggest a spawning slate and hopefully they will use it, this way you have the option of removing the eggs and jar rearing yourself, or whatever you might want to try doing. can't exactly remove the driftwood or the filter intake.

 

Both pieces of driftwood could be moved the are just leaning against glass, but I’m going to let nature take it course this is only 4-5th try. shall See.

 

Just an fyi: mine always spawned on plant leaves and it took them about 5 trys to get it 'right' - and about 8 trys to become pretty decent parents. I also found leaving the room lights on (not tank lights) helped a bit.

 

What size did you angels begin showing signs of pairing up?

 

Soo new update all attempts have failed and it seems to be taking a toll? The pair in the 55 gallon were locking lips and have both done damage .. lights come on and I can see how night went. The male seems to have the worst of it with torn fins in several spots. The female has a injured fin that she can use but it’s red at joint and she is holding it close to body much of the time.


maybe I’ll make a separate post but for any who follow here thoughts on moving one ?
options 20 gallon no other stock.
40 gallon breeder so a little short and pretty stocked… if I moved the baby rainbows from the 29 gallon to the 55 but i think I would have to move both or they might get eaten.

my nitrites are just to high I think for spawning, the other pair seem to handle it better they just scrap early and go back to day to day. The female is lethargic sometimes I think from eating all the eggs ewww.
im running 20 ppm min up to 60-80 range by water change day. I could add more water changes and am going to 2x per week strategy on all the tanks. I think there is just so much dead plant build up … seems allot for 2 angelfish and three clown plecos to make that much waste on their own..

my other tanks also run high but one is very overstocked with grown rainbow fish that should be soon rehomed. my tetras a s danio tanks 40 gallon breeders seem to be doing the best only maxing at 40-60 so far. The baby rainbows (10 1 Inc or so) and other angelfish tank (just the pair) have closer to 20-40 both are 29 gallon.

the water is also much harder than they would prefer with PH that runs generally around 7.8 also not ideal but they seemEd to adjust.

im just not sure the fish are in a good spot the one pair maybe but the others between the water chemistry and their aggression any thoughts on what tank to move to or such.

female with partial clamping can see the red line at joint.



He has split tail torn fins and a chunk of fin torn From the lower top fin can’t see really in pic.

 

This is one of the reasons that the low low nitrates are clutch. It will aid them in healing from the damage and avoid infections.

They should be separated, and put on a break to recover, but move the male out. The female, who knows maybe you'll decide to try a different male.
Mine fight occasionally, it's mostly lip locking or ramming, but it settles in like an hour. but if the fighting is not stopping, she's refused him and it won't get better. She's decided it's not gonna work with him and moved on. Maybe you can reintroduce him later after they've healed up and gotten stronger, but leaving it as it is it's not usually gonna stop until she kills him or he goes away, or he kills her in defense of himself.

If you'd want to break all your pairs for a bit put females with females and males with males in separate tanks and let everyone recover, get their strength up to try again later and try pairing them how you want or stick them together again and let them pair up naturally again, or just reintroduce them again as it was and see if it changes anything.

7.8 shouldn't be a problem, mines 7.6-7.4 it works well for the eggs. It shouldn't matter to the fish but the harder the water and higher pH the harder it is to oxygenated the eggs properly, the outside is less permeable.

Water changes and nitrates. I run bare bottom in a 20g long. If I don't waterchange 20% daily nitrates will run up on me. Currently with 55 1" juveniles I'm adding 20 nitrates every 24 hours with a single 50% water change.
When I prepped the tank to breed I cycled and then water changed and cleaned to get nitrates down under 5 as close to pristine as I could. It will creep up with the pair but still manageable to keep it really low with 10 and 20% daily changes. When the fry start growing and you're feeding and they are pooping and they are growing it gets out of had quick if you don't just make it routine and do a bigger change or more change as they get bigger and bigger.

I'm taking 20 or so juveniles to the lfs today finally downsizing. last night I did a 50% and this morning I did a 50% to get nitrates down to under 10ppm hoping for a smooth transition to the petstores tanks. I'll give him my parameters and hope he acclimates accordingly. Best I can do I think.

 

Thanks as soon as lights are up and I can see how the night went .. not sure where to move male unless I do the male /female swap, but the other pair are ok. I’m going to water change everything including the two I did last night again today and retest. I have another post that I just need to remove some stock … two many species of fish. I also am going to 1/2 my feeding because something is off.. at least most of my other tanks are ok just a few problem ones. Thanks as always

 

What size did you angels begin showing signs of pairing up?

Its not really according to size, some grow slower than others if you are buying juveniles that have growing to do and are between nickel and quarter size, they are about 2-3 months old. Somewhere around 9 months they hit maturity and begin to pair up. They might be 3" diameter or 4" diameter, females are usually smaller than males but that's not a hard rule, I've had big and small males. Guaging it by time is a better estimate, but you'll know it when it happens, it will go from cool and everyone cruising around, to constant fighting unless you have just one male and one female.the pair will have half a tank and all other fish will be on the other side. When you see it you'll know what it is. Lol.

 

So seems like no more damage overnight, female is using fin pretty normal. Some posturing but they are in same space so ok for now. I’m doing another waterchange in a bit so they shakes em up as well.

 

Female will reject a male if breeding is not successful and then go looking for a new mate.

 

Well he turned the tables today and started to go at her on and off and then every time I went in the room. It was bad enough that I moved her about an hour ago. Almost immediately the swelling and red lines near fin joints seemed to settle down. She did one lap and now has picked a hiding spot in a semi active rainbow tank… see how she does, but I think it would have been severe injury or dead by morning.

 

Projected ended. last pair last attempt female never laid eggs, they could not seem to settle on a spot. Female began the fight but male finished it. i let it go for a couple days as it was just on and off and they were still resting together at night. 2 nights ago was non stop and he was cornering her and bashing into her with strike motion like going after prey. The next morning they were on opposite Sides of the tank and male started aggressive behavior as soon as lights came up. Female had torn fin and was looking sluggish.


she got moved to a 40 gallon breeder (always been a short one so think it’s ok) and she settled in fast and seems to be doing great,

I made a mistake with male and put it back in with other male … who said no thank you, and began to chase, charge, bite and when it found a spot to hide it would just stalk outside of hiding place … had three rips in tail in just a few hours … so he got moved to the 20 tall …it’s not ideal but only some redphantom tetras in at the moment and it’s taller than the other breeder. Seemed ok after a few hours red inflamed areas where settling down and he was exploring.

so now the 30 gallon they were in got a deep vacuum and is now holding some sick rainbows that I am treating. To much drama with no results …maybe ill try guppies again.

 

Projected ended. last pair last attempt female never laid eggs, they could not seem to settle on a spot. Female began the fight but male finished it. i let it go for a couple days as it was just on and off and they were still resting together at night. 2 nights ago was non stop and he was cornering her and bashing into her with strike motion like going after prey. The next morning they were on opposite Sides of the tank and male started aggressive behavior as soon as lights came up. Female had torn fin and was looking sluggish.


she got moved to a 40 gallon breeder (always been a short one so think it’s ok) and she settled in fast and seems to be doing great,

I made a mistake with male and put it back in with other male … who said no thank you, and began to chase, charge, bite and when it found a spot to hide it would just stalk outside of hiding place … had three rips in tail in just a few hours … so he got moved to the 20 tall …it’s not ideal but only some redphantom tetras in at the moment and it’s taller than the other breeder. Seemed ok after a few hours red inflamed areas where settling down and he was exploring.

so now the 30 gallon they were in got a deep vacuum and is now holding some sick rainbows that I am treating. To much drama with no results …maybe ill try guppies again.

Sorry to hear that but it happens. My pair fights between spawnings, and it gets rough, but I inspect them for damage and never see anything so I just let it ride and they end up spawning again. If damaged, one will end up killing the other. So separation is the only real answer.