Albino Dantumn Angels Breeding In Coralbandits Fishroom And More !

[coralbandit]

Finally after having to go out of town all summer for the work week I am home to tend my fish. Before I left I did manage to separate 1 pair out of the 6 albino dantum angels I got from Danzinger farms in Israel . They spawned and I have raised [well they raised themselves] aprox 10 of the fry to healthy quarter sized juvis in a small tank[they get upgraded soon]. Yesterday I finally caught the first pair laying eggs and managed steal them [like a good bandit does ].I am thrilled as I know for fact that I missed at least 3 spawns while out of town. I figured some angels are better then others and the parents would catch on ...Well they have not so finally I am involved again. I stole the eggs yesterday and as stated am thrilled but even better is to see that second pair has formed on the other side and is laying eggs right now. This side of the 55 gallon has another hopefully pair of the ADA and four albinos congos for accent. Hoping to get these eggs today also and move forward finally with my effort to bring these fish to people more reasonably. Got to clean the out side of the glass but here is crappy video of pair #2 this am.

Better video with glass cleaned .
They are still laying eggs !

 

[WinterSoldier.]

WOW, so cool good luck!

 

[coralbandit]

Too make this even better [imagine for a moment] upon moving the un paired 2 dantumns to 40b and dumping the albino congos in with them what do see?
Eggs coming out of the container that the congos were in ! I have 1 male and 3 females so I guess they are breeding also ! They are egg scatterers so it makes sense to me. I am glad I cleaned the 40b good as it was easy to find the eggs on the bottom of the tank and use a turkey baster to re claim them.Sinking eggs sounds like a winner also huh ?
Never breed any kind of tetra so if I am correct this will be getting more interesting.

 

[bizaliz3]

Congrats!
Did you get any pics of the quarter sized juvies??

 

[coralbandit]

I will post pictures tonight.
I am going to sell a couple so I have to get good shot of them anyways.

bizaliz3 here are the juvis ;




^^ The largest is about quarter sized now ^^

Here are the eggs [safely stashed] and the happy pair. Well at least I hope they are a pair . All I need is one wiggler to confirm since this is their first spawn that I have caught.




Next the eggs from pair #1 that I took yesterday [note the five bad eggs ,maybe more before they hatch];


And finally maybe as many as 100 albino congo tetra eggs !


I have them on high tumble with a cover over dip and pour to block direct light[I read that about tetra eggs ?] .Anyways all my lights are LEDs with $5 ebay dimmers on them so the albino tank has been on low light all along for the fishes well being.
Now if this wasn't enough fish and eggs for one day wait one minute....
Who else decided today was a good day to spawn? My 4-6 month old EBA that were scheduled to go to HawaiI yesterday but postponed for Olivia till next week !




I artificially hatch all fish I breed on purpose.I use lees or toms dip and pours and they work great !
I need to start the coralbandit fish room thread since this was supposed to be about the Dantums..
I am going to sell 2 or 4 of the Dantum juvis for $50 a pair with 2-3 day shipping included if anyone is interested.
I think I will have more soon enough ?

Morning feeding and check in shows about 15 eggs from batch two going bad. The male was "all over the road" so I am not surprised. Still just hoping to get 1 wiggler to confirm they are a pair.
Pair 3 with the congos in their new 40b looks interested in their slate but I don't see any tubes yet. Hoping they are a pair also .
Off to work ,how I love rain days...

 

[JadeMau]

Oh! They're gorgeous! Good on ya and best of luck, indeed!

 

[bizaliz3]

Gorgeous babies for sure! If I wasn't so packed full with angels already, and didn't already have a list of breeding goals, I'd definitely consider buying some.

Question for you, have you found albinos to be "different" in anyway? Like...require a little extra TLC and attention? Do you find them to be weaker? Because I am having these issues with my P. scalare albinos.

 

[coralbandit]

So far these angels have been on 'auto pilot' . I am seeing any uncommon to angelfish issues.
I will say my white albino swordtails are a tough fish for me ! I can't say why yet though ??? I was surprised when the albino congos spawned so I guess I should keep the albino factor in play till I see how they go?
I was originally concerned with whether or not they demand special conditions ,but beyond keep their LED lights down pretty low I do nothing special in regards to the albinism.
What issues are you experiencing ?

 

[bizaliz3]

What issues are you experiencing ?

They just seem weak. I have done nothing different with them than any of my other angelfish babies. But they don't make it past the first couple weeks. Even after getting fat orange bellies from BBS and starting to develop fins. I don't have that kind of loss with other angels I have raised. They struggle to eat because they appear to be blind. But even once I get them going and starting to fatten up, they don't last more than a couple weeks.

I was keeping the light dim, but it seems the only time they stop surfing on the bottom is when I give them bright light.....so I feel like its backwards or something.

I don't know. Its not uncommon for creatures with albinism to be weaker. So I have just chalked it up to that. I have a big batch right now, so we will see how it goes this time around.

 

[coralbandit]

Besides keeping lights low I got nothing. Good luck with the batch you are working !

Well 24 hours plus in and most of the eggs from #2pair are still looking good !
I am getting excited at the thought that this pair will be confirmed shortly.
I now have the three pairs in their own space with 2 pairs sharing the 55 gallon with a poret sponge[2" thick] as a divider and the un confirmed pair in a 40b with the albino congos till they get a tank of their own. Expecting wigglers tomorrow I believe from pair #1 eggs !

Wigglers from both spawns !
So I have 2 pairs now …
Funny how eggs 1 day older have hatched less then the newer ones ?
But overall I think I am getting two pretty good sized batches of wigglers .
Pics when all are off the slate .

 

[Mcasella]

I'd be interested in them after I move (that way I have the tank space to raise them), you've got real luck to get that many pairs from a handful of fish.

 

[DioAquatics]

Just read through this thread and man how do you get so many fish to spawn at the same time?!? lol The angels are absolutely gorgeous. Dantum angels are one of my favorites

 

[coralbandit]

Just read through this thread and man how do you get so many fish to spawn at the same time?!? lol The angels are absolutely gorgeous. Dantum angels are one of my favorites

I think the moon ,massive water changes and heavy feedings [of frozen bloodworms] may have something to do with it ?lol …
I am not a big angel fan at all but when I realized what these were when I saw them I had to have them . I think I had a pair back 4-6 years ago but they were being sold under the name albino blues at my LFS from a local breeder [in Mass] ..They were this fish I have today and they were awesome .
Saw a breeding tube on one of the 2 in the 40b[still unconfirmed if they are a pair] ?
Have higher hatch rates and wigglers from batch #2 [new pair] then established pair whose eggs also took one whole day longer to hatch ?
All the EBA eggs have also hatched. Need to look in on the congos...

 

[DioAquatics]

I think the moon ,massive water changes and heavy feedings [of frozen bloodworms] may have something to do with it ?lol …
I am not a big angel fan at all but when I realized what these were when I saw them I had to have them . I think I had a pair back 4-6 years ago but they were being sold under the name albino blues at my LFS from a local breeder [in Mass] ..They were this fish I have today and they were awesome .
Saw a breeding tube on one of the 2 in the 40b[still unconfirmed if they are a pair] ?
Have higher hatch rates and wigglers from batch #2 [new pair] then established pair whose eggs also took one whole day longer to hatch ?
All the EBA eggs have also hatched. Need to look in on the congos...

Well I need the moon and some water changes to work in my favor when I set up my fish to spawn! lol I'm going to have to get some more frozen bloodworms too lol.
I would love to own a pair of dantum angels in a big display tank.

 

[coralbandit]

Well I need the moon and some water changes to work in my favor when I set up my fish to spawn! lol I'm going to have to get some more frozen bloodworms too lol.
I would love to own a pair of dantum angels in a big display tank.

If you are down near NYC the source is closer to you then me !
I still have 1 pair of the juvis left to sell but I got my breeders from Discus Madness in NJ.
They have some nice fish .Only "open by appointment " it is more like just let them know you are coming.

 

[Mcasella]

If you still have them available I'd like to go ahead and get them.

 

[DioAquatics]

If you are down near NYC the source is closer to you then me !
I still have 1 pair of the juvis left to sell but I got my breeders from Discus Madness in NJ.
They have some nice fish .Only "open by appointment " it is more like just let them know you are coming.

I'm about an hour north of NYC, upper Westchester so maybe it will work in my favor lol
I've heard of them before, I wanted to go to them to buy a few dark knight rams from them. I still want to but that's when my fish room is complete.

 

[coralbandit]

If you still have them available I'd like to go ahead and get them.

Pm sent .

I'm about an hour north of NYC, upper Westchester so maybe it will work in my favor lol
I've heard of them before, I wanted to go to them to buy a few dark knight rams from them. I still want to but that's when my fish room is complete.

That is where I got my Black rams from also .
They import directly from Danzinger Discus farms who has created both the Dantumn and Black ram .
I try to get as close to the original source for the fish I breed and sell as possible .

 

[DioAquatics]

That is where I got my Black rams from also .
They import directly from Danzinger Discus farms who has created both the Dantumn and Black ram .
I try to get as close to the original source for the fish I breed and sell as possible .

Are they really dark? I've seen pictures of some that are almost pitch black, that's what I want

 

[coralbandit]

What they had to sell was a mix.There were black and not so black ones there, I believe they are out of stock right now .
I have breed several times now and very few that are even dark.
I spoke with Shahar Danzinger when I got them and know I am doing things not only right but as he does so I guess I just need to work this fish longer before I will have dark ones to sell?

 

[Mcasella]

What they had to sell was a mix.There were black and not so black ones there, I believe they are out of stock right now .
I have breed several times now and very few that are even dark.
I spoke with Shahar Danzinger when I got them and know I am doing things not only right but as he does so I guess I just need to work this fish longer before I will have dark ones to sell?

That's what I've read about it. Its a color morph that isn't quite set in the selling population.

 

[coralbandit]

Here are some pics of the blacks I got ..

 

[DioAquatics]

What they had to sell was a mix.There were black and not so black ones there, I believe they are out of stock right now .
I have breed several times now and very few that are even dark.
I spoke with Shahar Danzinger when I got them and know I am doing things not only right but as he does so I guess I just need to work this fish longer before I will have dark ones to sell?

When you do get those really dark ones, I'll take the trip up to you and gladly buy some from you.

 

[DioAquatics]

Here are some pics of the blacks I got ..

The one to the left is pretty dark, is the one on the right a regular GBR?

 

[coralbandit]

The one to the left is pretty dark, is the one on the right a regular GBR?

In the first picture yes that is a standard GBR from Danzinger with one of his blacks .
The second picture is both blacks ,that can be the difference in appearance.

 

[DioAquatics]

In the first picture yes that is a standard GBR from Danzinger with one of his blacks .
The second picture is both blacks ,that can be the difference in appearance.

Oh wow that isa big difference with how black they are. In the second picture, that one on the right almost looks like a normal GBR

 

[coralbandit]

Oh wow that isa big difference with how black they are. In the second picture, that one on the right almost looks like a normal GBR

Without really knowing I don't think many would know some of the rams I have are black.They will probably be sold at the same price of GBR with a little note on the side that says " these guys are really not colored up black rams ..Enjoy !" They do look like really well colored GBR with strong black markings ...

 

[coralbandit]

So the race is on between wigglers and it looks like the EBA are winning. I would almost feed them today if they were swimming in the water column.They are all over the bottom of dip and pour so it won't be long.
The angel wigglers are doing what angels wigglers do and sticking together [literally]. I have seen this plenty of times and believe it is a 'reaction' to the adhesive that is left over from them, being eggs ? All is good and hopefully they will swim in a day or two.
The congo eggs have dis appeared ! I mean GONE?
Not a trace of a bad/good egg or even a fry? I will have to guess that either the tumbling or MB was not so good for them..
Need to get another tank running for them as two of the females look like they about to explode !
I guess like the rams my next mission is chosen for me ? I will raise Albino congos if it is possible .How many ? Time will tell..I sure hope it is more then one but that is where I will start !

 

[Mcasella]

The angel wigglers have a sticky thread on the top of their head (it isn't mom and dad's spit keeping them on a surface), so if they twist away from the surface they can come off of it briefly only to stick somewhere else.
On the congo eggs I would make it a gentle tumble or get an egg tumbler to incubate them, they might be small enough eggs to be bothered by methylene blue.

 

[coralbandit]

Ok pics from today ;


^^ A few [less then 10] Black ram fry.^^


^^ Wigglers in their sticky mess from pair #2


^^ wigglers from pair #1^^




^^ and believe it or not just 5 days later set of eggs #2 from pair #2 !
Sometimes you get lucky !
I'll get better pic of eggs in D&P tomorrow .They are already safely stashed.
I am surprised the pair not only spawned again so soon,I know 5 days is not unheard of ,but with the eggs and wigglers still in view of the parents in the tank I am surprised they were that ready to go again.Usually if I leave fry where the parents can see them [ most of my fish ] the parents will still try to tend their clutch.This pair was no different and 9 out 10 times I look in on them they are at the side of the D&P. I never even saw them looking frisky !

 

[coralbandit]

So fish breeding is a little give and take. I try to take as much as I can but sometimes things don't work out .


^^#2 set of eggs from second pair ,all bad ^^
I would worry more if the first set was not still wiggling ,but this is the give part I guess.
I will guess one of the two was not fully recovered enough to perform properly ?
The EB wigglers became free swimmers yesterday and have just devoured their second feeding of BBS !


^^EBA free swimmers ^^
And finally keeping an eye on all tanks [over 60] I found these yesterday in one of my black ram grow out tanks !


^^Taken yesterday they still look good today !^^

Now I am just waiting to be able to feed the angels if they ever swim !

 

[DioAquatics]

Glad to hear everything is going well for you! That’s awesome that you got black ram eggs! Crossing my fingers for you

 

[coralbandit]

Glad to hear everything is going well for you! That’s awesome that you got black ram eggs! Crossing my fingers for you

I have had good luck with the black rams [over 300 juvis] but this is my firstspawn from my juvis.
I will add not many of the black rams are dark...But they look like top notch GBR !

 

[DioAquatics]

Sheesh that’s a lot of rams lol. How many pairs of the black rams do you have?
What are your water parameters? I want to own and try to breed black rams myself and I’m curious to see if we have similar water.

 

[coralbandit]

My source water is ; pH 7.6 / KH 2-3 /GH9 with a TDS of 350+ .
I don't measure anything but TDS after that .I believe everyone should understand their source water but besides seasonal flushing or flooding of the overall source my water does not change much. I change it though to make it what my fish want. For most this a recipe for disaster but I am a creature of habit and consistency .I do the same thing every time and have measured containers that make my mixes easy . I do think once a tank is cycled that a TDS pen is way more important then any other test. If you need to be told to change water you will have little success. With over 60 tanks I change water almost every day as I choose to keep my fish in ideal conditions .
I mix my RO[ I don't waste DI resin on water I am going to re mineralize ] and mix it with my tap to get a TDS of under 100.
That is it besides keeping them at 80-84f.
I have been breeding rams for more then 4 years now so it is a habit of consistency for me and my fish..
I started with 12 Black rams in February and have had many spawn since then.
If you haven't check out the video in my signature … A customer [now buddy ] came to my house to get rams and did a video tour of my fish room.
I am forever grateful to Rich for this as my videos really don't compare...
I got a couple hundred rams besides the blacks from GBR to my EBR /GBR cross[F1&2] and working on getting my EBR back to selling numbers.
I just wish all these other fish I work would breed as easy and successfully as the EBA ! They are breeding machines that I put no effort into besides removing eggs and hatching.
I feed so many fry every day that I hatch 1-3 batches of BBS per day ! I feed the BBS to many of my other fish including full grown swordtails ![Maybe that is another secret ?]
I go through 1lb of BBS eggs [Brine Shrimp Direct] in around a year.

 

[bizaliz3]

I have had good luck with the black rams [over 300 juvis] but this is my firstspawn from my juvis.
I will add not many of the black rams are dark...But they look like top notch GBR !

This is very fascinating to me. I personally had no luck with black rams. It may be that my pair was a very young pair. After 4 failed attempts at raising their fry (I couldn't get the fry to eat BBS or microworms) I put the parents in my 75 community and stopped trying for now.

BUT I did manage to get ONE lone survivor. Just one. Out of hundreds and hundreds. And he is just a regular GBR. So I was wondering what % of their spawn would have been black, if any at all....

So with that being said, approximately what % of the babies were actually black?

I guess this means there is no recessive "black" gene. Or "dark" gene. Because if there were, then two black parents would make 100% black babies.

Granted they come in many shades of black. My male is dark, but not nearly as dark as my female. So there are also different levels of black....

Its just very interesting to me. And I am glad you mentioned them on this thread! Because I have been very curious what my two black rams would have produced overall. And hearing that the majority of the babies were NOT black is fascinating.

 

[DioAquatics]

Sounds like we have pretty similar water parameters from the tap. Have you bred them in your water without altering it? I’d like to breed the black rams sometime in the future but messing with water is something I’d like to avoid.
I heard that the warmer temps are must for breeding so that’s not a huge issue.
I am actually very familiar with Rich. I watched his videos almost religiously when he posted lol. I saw the video of your fish room tour, very impressed. So to see that you’re on this forum awesome!
I know about your rams. Every time someone mentions they got them from you, it’s very highly spoken of.
With the hundreds of rams you have, I’m not surpised that you go through that much BBS. Do you feed any other foods like micro worms and stuff?

 

[coralbandit]

This is very fascinating to me. I personally had no luck with black rams. It may be that my pair was a very young pair. After 4 failed attempts at raising their fry (I couldn't get the fry to eat BBS or microworms) I put the parents in my 75 community and stopped trying for now.

BUT I did manage to get ONE lone survivor. Just one. Out of hundreds and hundreds. And he is just a regular GBR. So I was wondering what % of their spawn would have been black, if any at all....

So with that being said, approximately what % of the babies were actually black?

I guess this means there is no recessive "black" gene. Or "dark" gene. Because if there were, then two black parents would make 100% black babies.

Granted they come in many shades of black. My male is dark, but not nearly as dark as my female. So there are also different levels of black....

Its just very interesting to me. And I am glad you mentioned them on this thread! Because I have been very curious what my two black rams would have produced overall. And hearing that the majority of the babies were NOT black is fascinating.

I know little about biology[I like to keep mentioning this ?] but the black is just a color variant.
I have had red finned angels that shot every color of angel under the sun except black and albino. They were impossible to predict ?
I have maybe 10 rams that I will call 'dark' but not nearly as black as their parents ?
I also have seen the fish change color ? Not drastic but some of the blacks I originally got were not that dark[I accepted what was in the tank at the supplier] and I have seen them get much darker for what ever reason.
My last batch of blacks had only 5 survivors but 2 out of them are so light they look almost gold or albino ?
I will continue to work these fish and probably get more blacks to keep the blood line fresh.
Even the fish directly from Israel were at best 15% black with another 10-15% being dark.

 

[coralbandit]

KingD
No other live foods offered. I mentioned before that many top notch breeders believe that freshwater fry eat salt water foods [BBS] and marine breeders feed Freshwater foods [rotifers].
This I believe is old school thinking of not adding food that may grow bacteria in your water .
Both of the above mentioned foods die in the tanks they are fed not allowing bacteria to gain a foot hold ?
My rams have breed successfully in my source water but I don't encourage it any more. I do switch my fry to source water 100% about 2-3 months but other then that I like the way I do it just fine.

 

[bizaliz3]

I know little about biology[I like to keep mentioning this ?] but the black is just a color variant.
I have had red finned angels that shot every color of angel under the sun except black and albino. They were impossible to predict ?
I have maybe 10 rams that I will call 'dark' but not nearly as black as their parents ?
I also have seen the fish change color ? Not drastic but some of the blacks I originally got were not that dark[I accepted what was in the tank at the supplier] and I have seen them get much darker for what ever reason.
My last batch of blacks had only 5 survivors but 2 out of them are so light they look almost gold or albino ?
I will continue to work these fish and probably get more blacks to keep the blood line fresh.
Even the fish directly from Israel were at best 15% black with another 10-15% being dark.

Ya, angels have so many different genes involved that it is very common for them to produce many different kinds of babies. Their complicated genetics are what got me obsessed with breeding them in the first place.

As far as the rams, I realize that black is just a color variant, but there would typically be different genes involved that would cause the different color variant. Just like with angels. So I didn't know if maybe there was some new "dark" gene for the rams. Angelfish have a "dark" gene for instance. If they have two dark genes they are very very black. But if they have only one dark gene, they can be dark, but not completely black. So I was wondering if it might be similar with the rams. But apparently not. Because they produce just a small % of dark babies.