Adding a sump to non-drilled tank

[Lucifer]

Hi all,

I have a 330G tank which is not drilled and not interested in trying to drill it - I would no doubt screw it up lol.
Anyways it currently has an FX5 at one end and an FX6 the other. Mainly filled with central american cichlids.

Its nearly time to add more filtration I think.
I have a spare 75G 4 ft tank which I was considering to use as a DIY sump.

My thinking was to add in an overflow box which I would then plumb to the sump.
Thoughts? Silly idea?

Also any suggestions on the format of the sump. I've seen all different setups from one big space to multiple compartments etc.
I guess it depends on the type of media and how you want it to flow.

 

[SparkyJones]

Hi all,

I have a 330G tank which is not drilled and not interested in trying to drill it - I would no doubt screw it up lol.
Anyways it currently has an FX5 at one end and an FX6 the other. Mainly filled with central american cichlids.

Its nearly time to add more filtration I think.
I have a spare 75G 4 ft tank which I was considering to use as a DIY sump.

My thinking was to add in an overflow box which I would then plumb to the sump.
Thoughts? Silly idea?

Also any suggestions on the format of the sump. I've seen all different setups from one big space to multiple compartments etc.
I guess it depends on the type of media and how you want it to flow.

I have a wetdry on a overflow box, not the same but similar principle.ive wanted to transition to a sump but way too comfortable with the wet dry now to change.

Setting up your sump just depends on what you want to put in there for media and equipment. Some put a heater in there some put a doser in there, separate spaces for mechanical filtration and biological filtration, some have a lighted section or light the whole under and grow submerged and emmersed plants in the sump area for some natural filtration that's not in the tank. Some use it to hold extra cycled sponge filters or even some fish in a chamber. Really just depends on what you want it doing on how you design it. The baffles have to be right, how many compartments and what you want down there is up to you.

 

[Cherryshrimp420]

Used a sump for many years, not a big fan of the overflow compartment though. It always needed some maintenance due to bubble build up. Siphon had to be remade every few months.

For media I just put whatever with high surface area, dont think it matters too much.

 

[Lucifer]

I have had mixed reports regarding the overflow. I only mentioned that as it seemed like the most appropriate solution. To be honest though am open to any suggestions if there might be a better one

 

[Cherryshrimp420]

If you play around with the tube size and water pressure it may run smoothly for a very long time. I havent made it work myself though.

The simplest solution is just drill the tank and then no more worry about bubble buildup

Alternatively, an above-tank sump will not have to worry about losing siphon either, because water can just flow over the rim directly to the main tank

 

[TClare]

I was considering this for the 220 gallon tank, I didn't want to drill it, I read about over flow systems but got a bit confused and worried about what might go wrong. I already had two canisters so I am still using those along with two additional top filters the water goes into before returning to the tank. Sometimes I think I could do with better (or faster) filtration though.

 

[SparkyJones]

"bubble build up". I'm assuming this is referring to bubbles in the "U Tube" which build up?

There's a "sweet spot" by not keeping the U tube straight and angling it in the overflow box to the center away from the edges so when bubbles cascade in they don't get caught by the U tube and break before going in there.

On the other hand I have a pre-filter sponge on the tube down to the wet/dry sponge, and that thing gets nasty with food in just 2 days, it's slimy and a mess to clean so I'm cleaning it daily, spraying it out with the sink sprayer and putting it back. If you are doing this, and checking it regularly you'll catch the issues like the air bubble build up in the U tube. just have to cut that sponge short so if it does get blocked it come over the top and down the pipe to the wet/dry or sump and not over the top of the back section of the overflow box.

Sumps are definitely more risk than a wet dry for the amount of water that's in the sump. you want the overflow skinning off the surface and the output (return) up high also this way if it does back siphon somehow, or the pump fails at some point maybe an inch goes from the tank down below before the siphon breaks. once both ends are out of the water, ( water can't fall into the overflow and the output is above the water line.) no water is going below or leaving or rweturning to the tank anymore

I'd suppose with a sump, the water in the sump could pump back into the tank and make it top over if the overflow stopped working/got blocked somehow.

a sump or wet dry isn't going to necessarily be "better filtration" or even "faster flow",
A sump will provide more water volume though.
"Better and more filtration" by being able to filter in stages and adjust the media in parts or volume,
and room to hide equipment like heaters out from the tank above. a non drilled sump will pull off the surface though, meaning heavy waste is going to stay in the tank and the bad part of it, ammonia ect, will be broken down by the filter as it enters the waterand passes through the filter but there is more build up in the aquarium, in the substrate, it's like a dirt after a while, a fine silt.

A wet dry doesn't have as much additional water capacity, it still has a ton of volume for biomedia, and because of the water trickling over it in a shower, it's sort of a nitrate factory.. it's got better oxygenation and biological activity, Its same situation with an overflow box, it's just skimming off the surface. heavier solids will be breaking down in the tank after sinking into the substrate. It's why I prefer smaller river stones.gravel over sand in there. it all just settle in out of sight quickly.

The "flow" in either wet/dry or sump would depend on how big of a return pump you put on it. The pumps are cheap though compared to a canister filter. the canister filters in my opinion are good filters to keep the water contained, and if you set your intake or return or both down low I don't think there's a concern of a flood without a catastrophic failure of the canister filer or a hose. same concern you'd have with a wet dry or sump as far as that's concerned, hoses can fail.

Either the sump or wet dry has the advantage of being able to hold more stock., the sump because of the additional water volume the sump holds, the wet/dry because of the trickle method of oxygenation and biological activity, neither method gets you out of cleaning the tank regularly and vacuuming it out though, I don't think a canister filter will do that either though although some people try it.

I've had my wet dry since 1994, with probably 15 years of use or so over that period of time with a good 10 years of it sitting in the spare room clean and waiting for me to feel like keeping fish again.

In that time, I've only ever had to change the return pump once, then just change filter floss and prefilter sponges. the consumables regularly. I check the hoses, but they have never failed and still seem fine. I'm on light #3 for the tank since I've owned it. Mostly because lighting has changed a lot since 1994. LOL.

I'm personally afraid of canister filters. It seem too complicated to me, too mechanical too presurized and I'm not a very precise personality and tend to have extra parts when building Ikea. .
A wet/dry or sump, it's a siphon that takes water down below to the box, and a return pump to put it back up to the tank. about as simple as it gets, as long as the hoses don't leak, and you are test your set up:
1. for a power failure, what does it do? will it stop siphoning down to the below box? make adjustments so that it will stop siphoning if it doesn't.
and 2. If the overflow gets blocked, what will it do? does it pump all of the below box into the upper tank? if it does will it overflow it? can you make adjustments to water levels so that this doesn't happen also, or spend a minute of two each day making sure the overflow isn't obstructed?
Doing a check on the overflow takes about as long as feeding the fish in that tank. I do it at the same time each morning. Just make sure it's working as it should, rinse the prefilter sponge and put it back and a quick look at the hoses and around the tank to make sure they haven't cracked or popped and are leaking, I mean if it's leaking, it would generally be obvious, but sometimes it good to give it a once over and if something small, catch it before it gets to be something big.

One plus of a Sump I though I'd mention, is, I think it's possible to make a chamber for a deep sand bed or marinepure blocks. which either might start performing denitrification at some point for you. Obviously you'd want denitrification happening after your nitrification, so it would go to the end of the sump before the return pump. maybe mechanical for the heavies in the first, then sponge and biological for nitrification, then, deep sand bed or marinepure for denitrification, theres also people messing with algae beds or plants down there too which can work for denitrification, then last a bubble wand heater and the return pump to make sure the return water is oxygenated again.... there's a lot I'd like to play with with a sump myself to be honest, but I'm a "don't fix it if it ain't broke" kind of person.

 

[86 ssinit]

Overflow boxes work great. Just takes some time to adjust them correctly. I too have wet/drys. 3 of them running now. Sumps are somebody’s next idea from a wet/dry. None of my wet/drys are nitrate factories. The problem with sumps is people think the more they put in the better. It just doesn’t work that way. In the end they are still just filters. Still changing waste to clean water. Still bacteria doing the work. So there will always only be enough bacteria to eat the amount of waste available. By overfilling these things with the belief of denitrifying it just doesn’t work. Yes they may eat up the nitrates for a month or so and then none being there that bacteria dies off.
But that’s not the question anyway. Its overflows. Yes I use overflows on all of mine and would never drill a tank. The bad is overflows look like hob filters in the tank. They do tend to make noise. And with prefilter sponges in them these need to be cleaned. But they are easy to clean cause less leaks and are less chances of floods. Main problem with overflows is nobody sets them up correctly. Most just install and walk away. The box in the tank needs to be adjusted some. Only so much water flow into the sump. If not adjusted floods do happen on power outages. If adjusted correctly never a problem. Take no more than 1/2hr to adjust correctly. Again I use wet/dry systems. Tried and true for years! They are smaller versions of most cities water purification systems. Used with a dc motor they are more cost efficient. Now with a 330g tank you will need a larger sized one with 2 overflow tubes is at least 1” or 1 1/4”. So you will need 2 pipes or hoses going into your 75g. Hoses are nice cause they are flexible. Pvc is solid and will need unions to break the pipes apart. Many different ways to set up the 75g sump. Use as much of 5he media from your fx filter as you can. That should be all you need. For better filtration set up a k2 media section.

 

[SparkyJones]

Overflow boxes work great. Just takes some time to adjust them correctly. I too have wet/drys. 3 of them running now. Sumps are somebody’s next idea from a wet/dry. None of my wet/drys are nitrate factories.

I'd just say to be fair, you keep discus and water change on a level that nitrates aren't much of a concern for you anyways.
I'm sort of the water change slacker, and yes, ammonia in, nitrate out is always the case, so "factory" is a bad term for what I guess would be called "quite efficient at converting ammonia to nitrates". they aren't "mystery nitrates" in the end, they come from a persons stocking and how much ammonia gets produced and how long between water changes.

agree. correct setup and testing to know what it does for a power outage saves a bad situation from happening when power does eventually fail. It's also not a total "set and forget", you kind of have to keep an eye on it, make sure it doesn't need adjustment for evaporation ect.

you get used to what needs to be done though after that big set up adjustment, then it's a minute to 5 minutes tops to see if everything is how you want it and can be done at feedings, and maybe adjust down if some water has evaporated or adjust up and top off with a gallon or two. It becomes routine and quite easy though.

 

[tinylostwine]

So the issue with sumps is making sure there can't be a flood if your power go out (the pumps stop sending water back to the tank); and there can't be a flood if your overflow box clogs and water stops going into the sump. As long as there is enough wiggle room for those two cases the only other issue is setting things up to reduce noise. And yes they can make a lot of noise in some cases.
-
As to style - i like the one on swiss tropical site:
http://www.swisstropicals.com/wp_site/wp-content/uploads/Sump-layout.pdf
--
The general idea is the water goes into the 'sump' pass through a bunch of sponges which provides both mechanical and biological filtration and back to the tank. You don't want the water to flow too fast nor too slow. If you can drill the side of the sump the water can enter lower and that will help muffle it.
-
The negative is you have to clean those sponges and the sponges aren't cheap. You could end up spending $300 to $500 on sponges depending on size of sump and number of sponges you buy.
-

 

[TClare]

So the issue with sumps is making sure there can't be a flood if your power go out

That was the main reason we decided against it, I just didn't feel confident enough of getting it right, we do get occasional power cuts here. Plus already having the canisters. With my canister system I should have said before, I have zero problems with water quality, I do weekly water changes, have floating plants and nitrates are always below 5. Its just that when the water gets stirred up it can take quite a while to clear, I suppose not that important really.

 

[bgarthe]

I used to have a nearly 4’ custom built acrylic 25g sump above my 75g and a 20g above my 60g and they worked great. Simply pump up the water to the sump and gravity brings it back. Power out, no problem. My last chamber before return allowed only a cup or two of water to drain into the tank. If pump fails, all just sits there in sump. My return tube was that grooved flexible type so as to oxygenate water on the return.

Why you wonder did I take it down and rely on two AC 110s per tank? I got nervous about the weight of the sump. I wanted to build a stronger framework above the tank out from the daughter’s old room wall, but my wife said no. I had to remove it as I felt uneasy about supporting it with only heavy duty brackets.


Chambers:
1. Inlet hose from tank pump w mechanical sock and sponges and aerobic bb
2. Bags of Matrix and Biohome for anaerobic bb
3. More Matrix and a floating algae scrubber
4. Matrix and a second floating algae scrubber
5. For roots of Pathos plants for nitrate removal.. a light is at upper right above the sump for the pathos.
6. Outlet chamber with drain guard and hose back to tank. I even had a second drain hose should the primary somehow get clogged. This chamber was specifically designed for limiting how much water would drain back into the tank with a power outage. Some of the baffles had water going over and some with water going underneath.

You’ll notice that pic 1 had my pathos roots in the main tank. I later made the chamber just for them and moved the light to above instead of the side…..pics 2 & 3.

These two tanks were set up for when I had Discus and the water had to be ultra clean. It worked great to keep my nitrates in the 5-20 range depending on when I tested prior to the upcoming WCs. I also did not keep my heaters in the sump (although I wanted to) because if the pump should fail, the sump would be heated and the tank would go cold.

Pump to sump and hose are just left of center. Return hose is at far right.
Currently I’m happy with the two AC 110s for each tank. It wasn’t worth the fight (I’ve been married for over four decades and want to remain so ) to build out from the wall for sump weight support. Before I took them down, I even had a cable support to the ceiling, but was still uneasy/nervous. Perhaps had I not had the FX4 canister filter I used to use leak water (about 20g before I noticed), she might have given in. Oh well…..

 

[SparkyJones]

I used to have a nearly 4’ custom built acrylic View attachment 89947625g sump
View attachment 899474

Sump "OVER" sure is pretty unique. I don't think I see that very often! Awesome.
you know, if it's just about flow really, wave makers or power heads can do the job without reinventing the wheel. I just think you probably have adequate filtration (as far as bacterial colony) and they work, and you maybe just want more movement or circulation to pick things up into the water column where the filters can grab them, instead of a sump or wet/dry, simply adding some more circulation in tank would accomplish that.

Old school it would have been a closed loop system on the tank, it was before wave makers or power heads, you'd have a sump or wet/dry and for circulation in a saltwater tank, you'd pipe the bottom with PVC and an inline pump and this would just suck water in from one point in the tank and blow it out in a different point in the tank.

Closed loop has become pretty obsolete now since the power heads and then wave makers have hit the scene.occasionally in the 2nd hand aquarium market you'll see a tank with 6 or 10 holes in the bottom and be like "what the heck???" . it's old.
powerheads and wave makers basically fill this need without drilling the tank or having even more pipes and hoses into the tank. if you got the two FX filters, just the FX 6 is probably fine to do the job on the 330g by itself except you'll absolutely want more water movement, but filter wise and biologically, it's enough.
You might want to just try positioning some wave makers around to get better circulation and things kicked up a little more than they are now. and then set up that 75 with the FX5. hahaha

Just a thought.

 

[tinylostwine]

My biggest reason for using sump on larger aquarium (above 200 gallons); is they can be easier to monitor and clean than canister filters (my aquariums are drilled so it is a bit more robust). With the canister filter you can't visibly see if it is getting clogged et all though you might notice a change in the flow. And i gotta say i *hate* cleaning my fx6. One of the issue is mine is under a stand so i have to drag it out to access the media - i can't just take the lid off and pull out the media; which means i have to drain the water out of it to get the media out. Also i'm find the gunk that builds up around the propeller has a big impact on flow rate so i ahve to take the motor off time to time (approx once ever 18 to 24 months). It really annoys me.

 

[Lucifer]

I was considering this for the 220 gallon tank, I didn't want to drill it, I read about over flow systems but got a bit confused and worried about what might go wrong. I already had two canisters so I am still using those along with two additional top filters the water goes into before returning to the tank. Sometimes I think I could do with better (or faster) filtration though.

This is pretty much where I find myself now. It seems anything but the optimum flow rate will eventually cause problems. This has to be a common problem though surely.

"bubble build up". I'm assuming this is referring to bubbles in the "U Tube" which build up?

There's a "sweet spot" by not keeping the U tube straight and angling it in the overflow box to the center away from the edges so when bubbles cascade in they don't get caught by the U tube and break before going in there.

On the other hand I have a pre-filter sponge on the tube down to the wet/dry sponge, and that thing gets nasty with food in just 2 days, it's slimy and a mess to clean so I'm cleaning it daily, spraying it out with the sink sprayer and putting it back. If you are doing this, and checking it regularly you'll catch the issues like the air bubble build up in the U tube. just have to cut that sponge short so if it does get blocked it come over the top and down the pipe to the wet/dry or sump and not over the top of the back section of the overflow box.

Sumps are definitely more risk than a wet dry for the amount of water that's in the sump. you want the overflow skinning off the surface and the output (return) up high also this way if it does back siphon somehow, or the pump fails at some point maybe an inch goes from the tank down below before the siphon breaks. once both ends are out of the water, ( water can't fall into the overflow and the output is above the water line.) no water is going below or leaving or rweturning to the tank anymore

I'd suppose with a sump, the water in the sump could pump back into the tank and make it top over if the overflow stopped working/got blocked somehow.

a sump or wet dry isn't going to necessarily be "better filtration" or even "faster flow",
A sump will provide more water volume though.
"Better and more filtration" by being able to filter in stages and adjust the media in parts or volume,
and room to hide equipment like heaters out from the tank above. a non drilled sump will pull off the surface though, meaning heavy waste is going to stay in the tank and the bad part of it, ammonia ect, will be broken down by the filter as it enters the waterand passes through the filter but there is more build up in the aquarium, in the substrate, it's like a dirt after a while, a fine silt.

A wet dry doesn't have as much additional water capacity, it still has a ton of volume for biomedia, and because of the water trickling over it in a shower, it's sort of a nitrate factory.. it's got better oxygenation and biological activity, Its same situation with an overflow box, it's just skimming off the surface. heavier solids will be breaking down in the tank after sinking into the substrate. It's why I prefer smaller river stones.gravel over sand in there. it all just settle in out of sight quickly.

The "flow" in either wet/dry or sump would depend on how big of a return pump you put on it. The pumps are cheap though compared to a canister filter. the canister filters in my opinion are good filters to keep the water contained, and if you set your intake or return or both down low I don't think there's a concern of a flood without a catastrophic failure of the canister filer or a hose. same concern you'd have with a wet dry or sump as far as that's concerned, hoses can fail.

Either the sump or wet dry has the advantage of being able to hold more stock., the sump because of the additional water volume the sump holds, the wet/dry because of the trickle method of oxygenation and biological activity, neither method gets you out of cleaning the tank regularly and vacuuming it out though, I don't think a canister filter will do that either though although some people try it.

I've had my wet dry since 1994, with probably 15 years of use or so over that period of time with a good 10 years of it sitting in the spare room clean and waiting for me to feel like keeping fish again.

In that time, I've only ever had to change the return pump once, then just change filter floss and prefilter sponges. the consumables regularly. I check the hoses, but they have never failed and still seem fine. I'm on light #3 for the tank since I've owned it. Mostly because lighting has changed a lot since 1994. LOL.

I'm personally afraid of canister filters. It seem too complicated to me, too mechanical too presurized and I'm not a very precise personality and tend to have extra parts when building Ikea. .
A wet/dry or sump, it's a siphon that takes water down below to the box, and a return pump to put it back up to the tank. about as simple as it gets, as long as the hoses don't leak, and you are test your set up:
1. for a power failure, what does it do? will it stop siphoning down to the below box? make adjustments so that it will stop siphoning if it doesn't.
and 2. If the overflow gets blocked, what will it do? does it pump all of the below box into the upper tank? if it does will it overflow it? can you make adjustments to water levels so that this doesn't happen also, or spend a minute of two each day making sure the overflow isn't obstructed?
Doing a check on the overflow takes about as long as feeding the fish in that tank. I do it at the same time each morning. Just make sure it's working as it should, rinse the prefilter sponge and put it back and a quick look at the hoses and around the tank to make sure they haven't cracked or popped and are leaking, I mean if it's leaking, it would generally be obvious, but sometimes it good to give it a once over and if something small, catch it before it gets to be something big.

One plus of a Sump I though I'd mention, is, I think it's possible to make a chamber for a deep sand bed or marinepure blocks. which either might start performing denitrification at some point for you. Obviously you'd want denitrification happening after your nitrification, so it would go to the end of the sump before the return pump. maybe mechanical for the heavies in the first, then sponge and biological for nitrification, then, deep sand bed or marinepure for denitrification, theres also people messing with algae beds or plants down there too which can work for denitrification, then last a bubble wand heater and the return pump to make sure the return water is oxygenated again.... there's a lot I'd like to play with with a sump myself to be honest, but I'm a "don't fix it if it ain't broke" kind of person.

Thanks so much Sparky for the detailed response. You've made lots of good points there. The regular checking is fine if you had one of these systems and definitely mandatory anyways. One of the main aspects i was worried about is what if something goes wrong...power outlet, what if the pump stops, and I've had multiple pumps fail before ( need to stop buying cheap chinese ebay pumps!). So your points about thoroughly checking and testing will alleviate some of those concerns. I think like anything a lot of testing, then testing again both for when something goes wrong and to setup the ideal flow rate etc.

I do love the idea of how customizable a sump is. Pretty much how you described it here is along the lines I was thinking, i.e. mechanical, biological, the heaters down below, when I have them running, and yes for me a bunch of plants to help with the denitrification.

Just on vacuuming, I haven't done it on the tank for 6 months since I put a tone of sand in there. I used to have only river pebbles and it was a big chore I think every 2 weeks, 45 min gravel vac. I was lazy though i should have removed the pebbles first, instead I dumped all the sand over the top. Obviously over time some of the pebbles have made their way to the top. But it certainly looks clean on the surface. I know the waist sinks into the sand. Still working on a better setup for the substrate too but one thing a a time!

Overflow boxes work great. Just takes some time to adjust them correctly. I too have wet/drys. 3 of them running now. Sumps are somebody’s next idea from a wet/dry. None of my wet/drys are nitrate factories. The problem with sumps is people think the more they put in the better. It just doesn’t work that way. In the end they are still just filters. Still changing waste to clean water. Still bacteria doing the work. So there will always only be enough bacteria to eat the amount of waste available. By overfilling these things with the belief of denitrifying it just doesn’t work. Yes they may eat up the nitrates for a month or so and then none being there that bacteria dies off.
But that’s not the question anyway. Its overflows. Yes I use overflows on all of mine and would never drill a tank. The bad is overflows look like hob filters in the tank. They do tend to make noise. And with prefilter sponges in them these need to be cleaned. But they are easy to clean cause less leaks and are less chances of floods. Main problem with overflows is nobody sets them up correctly. Most just install and walk away. The box in the tank needs to be adjusted some. Only so much water flow into the sump. If not adjusted floods do happen on power outages. If adjusted correctly never a problem. Take no more than 1/2hr to adjust correctly. Again I use wet/dry systems. Tried and true for years! They are smaller versions of most cities water purification systems. Used with a dc motor they are more cost efficient. Now with a 330g tank you will need a larger sized one with 2 overflow tubes is at least 1” or 1 1/4”. So you will need 2 pipes or hoses going into your 75g. Hoses are nice cause they are flexible. Pvc is solid and will need unions to break the pipes apart. Many different ways to set up the 75g sump. Use as much of 5he media from your fx filter as you can. That should be all you need. For better filtration set up a k2 media section.

Thanks 86 - this actually gives me some confidence with someone that has had lots of good experience with the use of such systems. I'll be honest I'm not even sure what a wet/dry system is. I do seem to hear it more and more though. I'm assuming this was one of the main alternatives to cannisters before sumps became popular. Now I know popular doesn't mean better. Actually in this world usually the opposite. I'm certainly willing to look at wet/dry systems if that is a viable alternative too.

This tank sits in my shed so I don't mind the look etc and even a little noise. I have a central air pump running in the shed so it wouldn't be louder than that I assume.

Interesting point about the hoses. Most setups you see use the PVC but you are right it involves multiple joins etc. All cannister filters use hoses and obviously works fine and it would be much easier and more flexible to setup too.

What are you referring to when you say 5he media?

 

[Cherryshrimp420]

The design of overflow compartment is that power outage does not affect it. If pump stops, then water stop overflowing.

There is no need to match drain rate with pump rate, as long as the drain can accomodate more than the pump rate

"bubble build up". I'm assuming this is referring to bubbles in the "U Tube" which build up?

There's a "sweet spot" by not keeping the U tube straight and angling it in the overflow box to the center away from the edges so when bubbles cascade in they don't get caught by the U tube and break before going in there.

On the other hand I have a pre-filter sponge on the tube down to the wet/dry sponge, and that thing gets nasty with food in just 2 days, it's slimy and a mess to clean so I'm cleaning it daily, spraying it out with the sink sprayer and putting it back. If you are doing this, and checking it regularly you'll catch the issues like the air bubble build up in the U tube. just have to cut that sponge short so if it does get blocked it come over the top and down the pipe to the wet/dry or sump and not over the top of the back section of the overflow box.

Sumps are definitely more risk than a wet dry for the amount of water that's in the sump. you want the overflow skinning off the surface and the output (return) up high also this way if it does back siphon somehow, or the pump fails at some point maybe an inch goes from the tank down below before the siphon breaks. once both ends are out of the water, ( water can't fall into the overflow and the output is above the water line.) no water is going below or leaving or rweturning to the tank anymore

I'd suppose with a sump, the water in the sump could pump back into the tank and make it top over if the overflow stopped working/got blocked somehow.

a sump or wet dry isn't going to necessarily be "better filtration" or even "faster flow",
A sump will provide more water volume though.
"Better and more filtration" by being able to filter in stages and adjust the media in parts or volume,
and room to hide equipment like heaters out from the tank above. a non drilled sump will pull off the surface though, meaning heavy waste is going to stay in the tank and the bad part of it, ammonia ect, will be broken down by the filter as it enters the waterand passes through the filter but there is more build up in the aquarium, in the substrate, it's like a dirt after a while, a fine silt.

A wet dry doesn't have as much additional water capacity, it still has a ton of volume for biomedia, and because of the water trickling over it in a shower, it's sort of a nitrate factory.. it's got better oxygenation and biological activity, Its same situation with an overflow box, it's just skimming off the surface. heavier solids will be breaking down in the tank after sinking into the substrate. It's why I prefer smaller river stones.gravel over sand in there. it all just settle in out of sight quickly.

The "flow" in either wet/dry or sump would depend on how big of a return pump you put on it. The pumps are cheap though compared to a canister filter. the canister filters in my opinion are good filters to keep the water contained, and if you set your intake or return or both down low I don't think there's a concern of a flood without a catastrophic failure of the canister filer or a hose. same concern you'd have with a wet dry or sump as far as that's concerned, hoses can fail.

Either the sump or wet dry has the advantage of being able to hold more stock., the sump because of the additional water volume the sump holds, the wet/dry because of the trickle method of oxygenation and biological activity, neither method gets you out of cleaning the tank regularly and vacuuming it out though, I don't think a canister filter will do that either though although some people try it.

I've had my wet dry since 1994, with probably 15 years of use or so over that period of time with a good 10 years of it sitting in the spare room clean and waiting for me to feel like keeping fish again.

In that time, I've only ever had to change the return pump once, then just change filter floss and prefilter sponges. the consumables regularly. I check the hoses, but they have never failed and still seem fine. I'm on light #3 for the tank since I've owned it. Mostly because lighting has changed a lot since 1994. LOL.

I'm personally afraid of canister filters. It seem too complicated to me, too mechanical too presurized and I'm not a very precise personality and tend to have extra parts when building Ikea. .
A wet/dry or sump, it's a siphon that takes water down below to the box, and a return pump to put it back up to the tank. about as simple as it gets, as long as the hoses don't leak, and you are test your set up:
1. for a power failure, what does it do? will it stop siphoning down to the below box? make adjustments so that it will stop siphoning if it doesn't.
and 2. If the overflow gets blocked, what will it do? does it pump all of the below box into the upper tank? if it does will it overflow it? can you make adjustments to water levels so that this doesn't happen also, or spend a minute of two each day making sure the overflow isn't obstructed?
Doing a check on the overflow takes about as long as feeding the fish in that tank. I do it at the same time each morning. Just make sure it's working as it should, rinse the prefilter sponge and put it back and a quick look at the hoses and around the tank to make sure they haven't cracked or popped and are leaking, I mean if it's leaking, it would generally be obvious, but sometimes it good to give it a once over and if something small, catch it before it gets to be something big.

One plus of a Sump I though I'd mention, is, I think it's possible to make a chamber for a deep sand bed or marinepure blocks. which either might start performing denitrification at some point for you. Obviously you'd want denitrification happening after your nitrification, so it would go to the end of the sump before the return pump. maybe mechanical for the heavies in the first, then sponge and biological for nitrification, then, deep sand bed or marinepure for denitrification, theres also people messing with algae beds or plants down there too which can work for denitrification, then last a bubble wand heater and the return pump to make sure the return water is oxygenated again.... there's a lot I'd like to play with with a sump myself to be honest, but I'm a "don't fix it if it ain't broke" kind of person.

Im not too sure what it means to angle the U tube? From my understanding overflow compartments have about 3 U tubes. It can intake water from anywhere in the tank, does not have to be a surface skimmer

 

[Lucifer]

Sump "OVER" sure is pretty unique. I don't think I see that very often! Awesome.
you know, if it's just about flow really, wave makers or power heads can do the job without reinventing the wheel. I just think you probably have adequate filtration (as far as bacterial colony) and they work, and you maybe just want more movement or circulation to pick things up into the water column where the filters can grab them, instead of a sump or wet/dry, simply adding some more circulation in tank would accomplish that.

Old school it would have been a closed loop system on the tank, it was before wave makers or power heads, you'd have a sump or wet/dry and for circulation in a saltwater tank, you'd pipe the bottom with PVC and an inline pump and this would just suck water in from one point in the tank and blow it out in a different point in the tank.

Closed loop has become pretty obsolete now since the power heads and then wave makers have hit the scene.occasionally in the 2nd hand aquarium market you'll see a tank with 6 or 10 holes in the bottom and be like "what the heck???" . it's old.
powerheads and wave makers basically fill this need without drilling the tank or having even more pipes and hoses into the tank. if you got the two FX filters, just the FX 6 is probably fine to do the job on the 330g by itself except you'll absolutely want more water movement, but filter wise and biologically, it's enough.
You might want to just try positioning some wave makers around to get better circulation and things kicked up a little more than they are now. and then set up that 75 with the FX5. hahaha

Just a thought.

ahhhh you are not trying to encourage further MTS. I have that enough already lol. I do have one wave maker in the tank but I'm only really using it at the moment for further surface agitation. I don't really need it for that as I also have 2 large sponge filters that do that pretty well. It would be all about positioning I guess for the wave makers. Particularly for a 10 ft tank. Like how effective would they be. I would say you would need one at the end plus at least one or two somewhere in the middle to move it down to the return of the cannister?

Oh the other reason for considering a sump is my nitrates seem to be getting too high (40+ after a week). I do 40-50% weekly water changes but still. I know I can continue to de-stock which I've been doing and I need to do more but in the meantime.....

 

[SparkyJones]

ahhhh you are not trying to encourage further MTS. I have that enough already lol. I do have one wave maker in the tank but I'm only really using it at the moment for further surface agitation. I don't really need it for that as I also have 2 large sponge filters that do that pretty well. It would be all about positioning I guess for the wave makers. Particularly for a 10 ft tank. Like how effective would they be. I would say you would need one at the end plus at least one or two somewhere in the middle to move it down to the return of the cannister?

Oh the other reason for considering a sump is my nitrates seem to be getting too high (40+ after a week). I do 40-50% weekly water changes but still. I know I can continue to de-stock which I've been doing and I need to do more but in the meantime.....

Sounds like you have quite a few fish in there, or larger sized fish. That 40 nitrate reading, with a 50% water change leaves 20ppm behind. so it's gaining 20 nitrates a week. you are getting about 5.5ppm ammonia a week. My 10 adult angelfish in a 72g, will bump the nitrate test by 5ppm every two days.
I'll have 35-40 nitrates in 7 days.

A filter, any type of filter really, isn't going to save you the nitrates from happening.
It's either less stocking, or more water changing, or more plants that will help with that as the options.

More volume of water will lower the ppm effect of nitrates on the test less saturation, lower ppm, but that ammonia is becoming nitrates and you either need to remove the nitrates from the system with water changes or use them up in the system with plants, or lower stocking levels.
It can "help" to keep a clean filter and a clean tank bottom, this will reduce the nitrates from food/waste breakdown over time which also trickle into the mix, but it's not a whole lot there and the catch is even more cleaning to do that.

For me, if a pump fails, I get home from work and go by another one at the LFS, and switch it out. You can kind of sense by the sound it makes, and the water flow when the pump is getting old and weak, it could just seize up one day, but usually they just get weaker and slower, then one day seize up. So you can kind of see it coming. with a power outage or a failed pump, you can set it up a with siphon breaks or backflow preventers.
theres things you can do though, like the return pipe should be just at the water level of the tank, this will disrupt the surface for gas exchange, but in a power outage it will suck air and not just water and not get that back siphon effect the siphon breaks and it doesn't back flow. so the pump isn't pumping up to the tank, and the water is just minimally draining down into the sump and stops. it's just setting it up then shutting it off to be sure it will do as you intended it to, then your safe barring a hose blow out.

 

[Lucifer]

Sounds like you have quite a few fish in there, or larger sized fish. That 40 nitrate reading, with a 50% water change leaves 20ppm behind. so it's gaining 20 nitrates a week. you are getting about 5.5ppm ammonia a week. My 10 adult angelfish in a 72g, will bump the nitrate test by 5ppm every two days.
I'll have 35-40 nitrates in 7 days.

A filter, any type of filter really, isn't going to save you the nitrates from happening.
It's either less stocking, or more water changing, or more plants that will help with that as the options.

More volume of water will lower the ppm effect of nitrates on the test less saturation, lower ppm, but that ammonia is becoming nitrates and you either need to remove the nitrates from the system with water changes or use them up in the system with plants, or lower stocking levels.
It can "help" to keep a clean filter and a clean tank bottom, this will reduce the nitrates from food/waste breakdown over time which also trickle into the mix, but it's not a whole lot there and the catch is even more cleaning to do that.

For me, if a pump fails, I get home from work and go by another one at the LFS, and switch it out. You can kind of sense by the sound it makes, and the water flow when the pump is getting old and weak, it could just seize up one day, but usually they just get weaker and slower, then one day seize up. So you can kind of see it coming. with a power outage or a failed pump, you can set it up a with siphon breaks or backflow preventers.
theres things you can do though, like the return pipe should be just at the water level of the tank, this will disrupt the surface for gas exchange, but in a power outage it will suck air and not just water and not get that back siphon effect the siphon breaks and it doesn't back flow. so the pump isn't pumping up to the tank, and the water is just minimally draining down into the sump and stops. it's just setting it up then shutting it off to be sure it will do as you intended it to, then your safe barring a hose blow out.

One of the things I am doing is looking to add a bunch of plants. I have the baskets and the lights already which will sit at the top of the tank and I'll fill them with plants. I can't really have plants in the tank as apart from cichlids there is also 8 silver dollars in there. I have terrestrial plants in half my other smaller tanks and they work really well. Pretty much 0 nitrates in those tanks so I'm encouraged to try on the big tank. Half the reason for the tank was for additional volume and another place to add plants. Those two reasons will definitely help but I should instigate the plant project first. The cichlids are only half grown so unless I de-stock more now it will only get worse. I think in hindsight I have essentially treated the tank as one large grow out and bit by bit reducing the stock.

 

[SparkyJones]

Yeah. Your assessment is correct as they grow it gets worse. Pothos plants on a trellis behind the tank with the roots in the water can do quite a bit for you being the rest of the plant is out of the water. Just roots hanging down from the surface. Something like that might work there's people here that do it and some youtube videos of people with Pothos around their aquariums.

Duckweed which is a surface floater is also really good attempting nitrates. You fish likely won't destroy it faster than it will grow either. The emersed plants oand floaters have the benefit of taking co2 from the atmosphere/air so they have a faster growth than submerged plants.

 

[Lucifer]

Yeah. Your assessment is correct as they grow it gets worse. Pothos plants on a trellis behind the tank with the roots in the water can do quite a bit for you being the rest of the plant is out of the water. Just roots hanging down from the surface. Something like that might work there's people here that do it and some youtube videos of people with Pothos around their aquariums.

Duckweed which is a surface floater is also really good attempting nitrates. You fish likely won't destroy it faster than it will grow either. The emersed plants oand floaters have the benefit of taking co2 from the atmosphere/air so they have a faster growth than submerged plants.

Yeh I have pothos, alocasias, peace lili, parlour palms, monstera etc in other tanks.
Pothos are as good as any though and grow faster than most, therefore more effective at helping to remove nitrates.

I do have duckweed in a couple small tanks. One in particular, a 2 foot shrimp tank, I remove all I can each week and its completely full again the next week. I believe one of the fastest growing plants in the world. I usually drop the excess into the big tank but never lasts more than a day or two. Its also got pretty ordinary lighting on that tank so not conducive to much plant growth.

 

[86 ssinit]

Lots of great info here. For me the wet/dry is the perfect filter. So good even marineland added the name to their hob filters. The difference is a wet/dry the water flows vertically through your media. Gravity sends the water from the tank into the filter below ands pump returns it to the tank. No mater what the water is flowing vertically. If too much bio-film develops on the media the water flows a different way. The old way clears up by lack of flow. A ball pit never gets cleaned. The sponge in the overflow and a sponge before the water enter the return sump get cleaned at every water change. These can be rinsed in tap water. No need to worry about the bacteria.
A sump the water moves horizontally. Flow into a sock. This pull all large debris out of the water and needs to be cleaned as much as daily. Again rinsed I tap water. Next the water flow into other chambers of media. Most use porous rock of one sort or another. All of these types of media build up bio-film causing the water to flow past them. Some will have a chamber of sponge blocks. Now bringing the water has flowed past the rocks these sponges will collect and filter the water. After going through these chambers the last chamber is open with the pump sending water back to the tank. What happens with sumps and what the designers want is for you to fill these up with as much media as you can (selling media). Next they love to claim the added water to your system. So now your 330g system + your 75g sump=405g wow!!! Me I rather just put another tank in the space . In the end the media can only feed so much bacteria . Next if using a sump I would have the first chamber a k2 moving media setup. K2 is the most efficient setup. After that in the 75. You could set up a fully planted tank with shrimp before the return chamber. Just ideas.
As to above or below both work the same. Most above systems are much smaller than bgarthe’s. Most have many chambers and are growing plants out of them. Less weight to support. Not for 330g tanks as primary filters.
Next your 40ppm nitrate are not a problem. As long as your fish are healthy I wouldn’t worry about it. Nitrate is the reason to sell all the porous rock. The fear of nitrates appeared about the time bio-home media appeared. Really!! And your fish will grow big and create a lot of waste. Filtering is your main way of cleaning up. But changing water is a must. Fresh water and all the new minerals added back to the tank are what keeps the fish healthy. Lack of water changes is asking for diseases like hith. Cichlids are known for this. Best way to avoid is water changes. Your tank is huge. But I’d still change 100g a week for the fish . Yes I’m a water changer .

 

[bgarthe]

Lots of great info here. For me the wet/dry is the perfect filter. So good even marineland added the name to their hob filters. The difference is a wet/dry the water flows vertically through your media. Gravity sends the water from the tank into the filter below ands pump returns it to the tank. No mater what the water is flowing vertically. If too much bio-film develops on the media the water flows a different way. The old way clears up by lack of flow. A ball pit never gets cleaned. The sponge in the overflow and a sponge before the water enter the return sump get cleaned at every water change. These can be rinsed in tap water. No need to worry about the bacteria.
A sump the water moves horizontally. Flow into a sock. This pull all large debris out of the water and needs to be cleaned as much as daily. Again rinsed I tap water. Next the water flow into other chambers of media. Most use porous rock of one sort or another. All of these types of media build up bio-film causing the water to flow past them. Some will have a chamber of sponge blocks. Now bringing the water has flowed past the rocks these sponges will collect and filter the water. After going through these chambers the last chamber is open with the pump sending water back to the tank. What happens with sumps and what the designers want is for you to fill these up with as much media as you can (selling media). Next they love to claim the added water to your system. So now your 330g system + your 75g sump=405g wow!!! Me I rather just put another tank in the space . In the end the media can only feed so much bacteria . Next if using a sump I would have the first chamber a k2 moving media setup. K2 is the most efficient setup. After that in the 75. You could set up a fully planted tank with shrimp before the return chamber. Just ideas.
As to above or below both work the same. Most above systems are much smaller than bgarthe’s. Most have many chambers and are growing plants out of them. Less weight to support. Not for 330g tanks as primary filters.
Next your 40ppm nitrate are not a problem. As long as your fish are healthy I wouldn’t worry about it. Nitrate is the reason to sell all the porous rock. The fear of nitrates appeared about the time bio-home media appeared. Really!! And your fish will grow big and create a lot of waste. Filtering is your main way of cleaning up. But changing water is a must. Fresh water and all the new minerals added back to the tank are what keeps the fish healthy. Lack of water changes is asking for diseases like hith. Cichlids are known for this. Best way to avoid is water changes. Your tank is huge. But I’d still change 100g a week for the fish . Yes I’m a water changer .

Yes…..I agree 86ssinit. That’s why I settled for two AC 110s for each of my larger tanks. That dual AC 110 filtration per tank (w sponge and Biohome/Matrix bags in HOBs) is plenty…..if…..one includes WCs. The key (imho) is to do WCs with water “set to go”, or, in other words, matched, aged, and aerated to your tank parameters. I do not feel comfortable adding water straight from the tap…..too many differences can be present. I just now did my two 30% WCs on my 75g and 60g tanks with water virtually identical to the tank waters. I added water that I collected a week earlier that sat in my 45g Brut can being heated, degassed, and aerated. While 40 for nitrates is ok if fish are well, my systems rarely go above 20 for nitrates which I’m ‘good’ with. If I ever were to get an even larger tank going, I might go back to my sumps pictured above. Yes… I’m a ‘moderate’ water changer too.

 

[Lucifer]

Yep 40-50% water change weekly for this big tank. Never miss it on that tank at least.
All your arguments make sense and I agree the industry is full of merchandise they try to sell that we don't really need, well not as much as they tell us anyways.

After considering the comments here, I think I'll hold off on the sump for the moment then. Adding a bunch of plants should help with the nitrates and keep them in good check when combined with the water changes. So that is taken care of.

At the moment that 75G is used anyways as a hospital tank - housing a red devil from that big tank as it had a small lump on its head that appeared within 12 hours then burst in another 12. So had to get the spare tank up and running quickly. Luckily I had the spare. Probably not a bad thing to keep a spare around if I can continue to find the room for it.