75 Gallon Mbuna Stocking

[Gogiants85]

Hello,

Now that my tank is finally cycled, processing 4 ppm Ammonia to 0 ppm Nitrites in 24 hrs, I have placed an order of fish and just wanted to ask if this stocking seems OK?

6 Labeotropheus Caeruleus (unsexed)
5 Red Top Hongi (1M 4F)
7 White Top Hara (unsexed)
4 Cynotilapia Afra Cobue (1M 4F)
5 Labeotropheus Ochre (unsexed)

My plan is to remove excess males from the unsexed species, and hopefully end up at good ratios.

After things settle down a bit I'd also like to add a harem of Maingano and possibly one more Mbuna harem or a Peacock or two.

The only concern I have with adding Peacocks is whether or not they will be seen as a threat from trying to mate. I'm thinking an OB should be able to hold their own and not hurt anything, as long as the fish aren't small enough to eat

How does this look compatibility wise? Obviously not counting the potential Peacocks (not trying to start a war here lol).

Any advice and opinions are appreciated!!

Pic of tank attached

 

[MacZ]

Can you change your order?

Because these are too many fish, individuals AND species.

I would only do the Labidochromis sp. "Hongi" (2m/4f) and the Labeotropheus trewawasae "Ochre Chilumba" (1m/4w), if you can get the latter sexed, and call it done.

Cynotilapia are much too aggressive and territorial for the tank size and with two variants of them hybridisation is also a problem. I would scratch those completely or do only one harem alone and nothing else. Getting them unsexed means either buying trouble in a bag or very expensive live food as unsexed sometimes means "too youg too sex", which will be a problem if one of the other species comes as adults.

Also the Labidochromis caeruleus (aka "Yellow Lab") are very overbred these days, so those might be a. of weak health and b. introduce diseases or parasites due to this. They are also notoriously hard to sex, even for experienced professionals.

I would not combine peacocks with Mbuna due to dietary needs. Either the Mbuna tend to get bad intestinal problems from too protein rich food the peacocks would need or the peacocks get dietary deficiencies due to eating Mbuna food. Only some people can pull it off with finely tuned food mixes and strategies. Most that state they have no problems turn out to not have a clue what they're doing and how to even tell if the fish do actually well. I would ask Islandvic for more info on that.

 

[Gogiants85]

Can you change your order?

Because these are too many fish, individuals AND species.

I would only do the Labidochromis sp. "Hongi" (2m/4f) and the Labeotropheus trewawasae "Ochre Chilumba" (1m/4w), if you can get the latter sexed, and call it done.

Cynotilapia are much too aggressive and territorial for the tank size and with two variants of them hybridisation is also a problem. I would scratch those completely or do only one harem alone and nothing else. Getting them unsexed means either buying trouble in a bag or very expensive live food as unsexed sometimes means "too youg too sex", which will be a problem if one of the other species comes as adults.

Also the Labidochromis caeruleus (aka "Yellow Lab") are very overbred these days, so those might be a. of weak health and b. introduce diseases or parasites due to this. They are also notoriously hard to sex, even for experienced professionals.

I would not combine peacocks with Mbuna due to dietary needs. Either the Mbuna tend to get bad intestinal problems from too protein rich food the peacocks would need or the peacocks get dietary deficiencies due to eating Mbuna food. Only some people can pull it off with finely tuned food mixes and strategies. Most that state they have no problems turn out to not have a clue what they're doing and how to even tell if the fish do actually well. I would ask Islandvic for more info on that.

So I'm fine with nixing the idea of Peacocks, but with some of your other points? I'm seeing a ton of information that says otherwise. I do understand that there's a risk of hybridization, but I do not plan on distributing fry.

The yellow labs are from F2 parents, so the genes shouldn't be too muddied up, and I had to pay a lot more for that.

The Cobues are albino (both male and female) with blank white barring and a yellow top. This was selected intentionally so the females do not look too similar to the Haras.

As far as the number of INDIVIDUALS, everything I'm seeing points to overstocking to curb aggression and between 25-30 is a good number for a 75 gallon provided you have the filtration and rock work to support it. With number of SPECIES, I honestly didn't think it mattered as long as you end up with good M-F ratios?? I could be wrong on that point.

I'm not stocking Auratus, Bumblebee, Johanni, Demasoni, etc...and trying to have a successful setup, but I will ensure that I have only one male of each species with females to keep them busy.

I'm not trying to negate your opinion or experiences by any means, but it sounds like your saying I can only keep 11 total fish between 2 species and to be honest...that sounds severely understocked to me.

 

[qldmick]

I definitely think you can do more than two species in that tank, I have a yellow, blue, red theme in my 350L (92G) + bottom dwellers.

 

[Gogiants85]

I definitely think you can do more than two species in that tank, I have a yellow, blue, red theme in my 350L (92G) + bottom dwellers.

Sounds like a good looking tank!! Do you have a complete stock list? Also, now you have to pay the photo tax, I want to see it!!!

 

[qldmick]

Ok you talked me into it.
1m, 3f albino dragon bloods
1m, 3f electric yellows
4m, 1f, plus 5 younger (look like girls) mirrorballs
1m 2f albino bristlenose
5 clown loaches
I don't like how they show up in vid but here you go,

 

[MacZ]

I do understand that there's a risk of hybridization, but I do not plan on distributing fry.

Good approach, because hybrids should not be spread. With some extra info, i.e. the one Cynotilapia species being albino ("Cobue" is usually not signifying that) the chances are much lower anyway than with the original info.

The yellow labs are from F2 parents, so the genes shouldn't be too muddied up, and I had to pay a lot more for that.

Another info, that changes a lot. With farmbred fish I would definitely scratch Yellow Labs from every stocking list. But F2 is not bad at all.

I'm not stocking Auratus, Bumblebee, Johanni, Demasoni, etc...and trying to have a successful setup, but I will ensure that I have only one male of each species with females to keep them busy.

I quote this first so the next paragraph makes more sense. Cynotilapia are in the same league of aggression as the species you list there.

As far as the number of individuals, everything I'm seeing points to overstocking to curb aggression and between 25-30 is a good number for a 75 gallon provided you have the filtration and rock work to support it. With NUMBERS of species, I honestly didn't think it mattered as long as you end up with good M-F ratios?? I could be wrong on that point.

The numbers in an Mbuna tank are really a bit complicated. Generally, when you have females in the tank the aggression level of the males is higher and they are even more territorial than e.g. in an all-male tank.
In a harem tank, the number of species determines the number of territorial males and hence the number of territories necessary. The size of a territory depends on species, given structures and sometimes even the individual.
This is where the plan here becomes problematic, because with two aggressive species of Cynotilapia and the Labeotropheus trewawasae being sometimes not far from their level this can mean three fish might be able to leave everybody else hiding in the rocks. Especially when most or all females are holding (and believe me that will be happening at one point.).
You could do at least a bit by dividing the tank. Right now the big lump of holey rock in the middle divides the open space into 2 territories. If you can manage to divide into three this can change a lot already.
Speaking of holding: You have generally great rockwork in that tank, which means there will be fry surviving. Keep that in mind, the numbers will shift with every juvenile that makes it to adulthood.

I'm not trying to negate your opinion or experiences by any means, but it sounds like your saying I can only keep 11 total fish between 2 species and to be honest...that sounds severely understocked to me.

I appreciate you even reading and considering, there have been people here that wouldn't listen and came back with a ton of problems because they didn't listen.
I generally tend to understock, as my approach is only going by behaviour and the room the fish need, not in the least by bioload. I would still estimate a good maximum longterm stocking at 12-15 fish in your tank size.
Finding the right balance may take a while and I would usually say: Start with 2 species, you can always stock more, when you know the dynamics of the tank.

Now with the extra info, you might consider 3 species. So maybe either the Yellow Labs or one species of Cynotilapia. One can still stock more, but starting out with too many in a tank where catching a fish is a pain in the behind is not what you will want. I speak from experience.

 

[Gogiants85]

Ok you talked me into it.
1m, 3f albino dragon bloods
1m, 3f electric yellows
4m, 1f, plus 5 younger (look like girls) mirrorballs
1m 2f albino bristlenose
5 clown loaches
I don't like how they show up in vid but here you go,

Your tank looks great! And the fish seem to be happily following the boss swimming laps

 

[MacZ]

But it's also a Peacock/Hap tank, same Lake but otherwise not comparable to an Mbuna tank. Just pointing that out.

 

[qldmick]

If your worried about feeding different haps/peacocks/mbuna I use NLS.

This is what they say about their products,
Easy to digest protein from whole Krill and whole Herring - without soybean products!
Formulated for all types of omnivore , herbivore and carnivore cichlids.
High nutrition density for less waste and cleaner water.
Enhances the full spectrum of your fish's colour.

Their also just under 40% proteins so not to much, and they also use several seaweeds in their formula.

These days I use NLS Probiotix but in the past have used NLS Cichlid and also tried NLS Algaemax as well, seem to be fairly equal in terms of growth, breeding and fry development, In terms of the electric blue icebergs and electric yellows I used to breed and raise.

 

[MacZ]

No, I was pointing that out due to differences in behaviour and space ratios of open water to rockworks.

Your only Mbuna are Yellow Labs, which are in a weird dietary limbo between the groups anyway.

I haven't heard of that manufacturer. When I kept Malawi cichlids (1992/93-2001/02) the pallette of manufacturers was limited to 4-5, of which we could get one only directly from the importer we bought the fish from and one was only available in 5kg buckets ordered via telefax.
I'm always sceptical when there are grains in fish food and when it takes some search to find a list of ingredients, bit seems to be ok stuff.

The important thing about Mbuna and protein: They can't have most frozen foods. Many people feed haps and peacocks bloodworms and that's the one thing Mbuna shouldn't get under an cicrumstances. Interestingly they have little to no problems with protein from crustaceans like artemia or cyclops.

 

[qldmick]

WOW you haven't heard of New Life Spectrum? Here you go,
FOODS — New Life Spectrum®: Fish Food (feedspectrum.com)
Here's my Container (Probiotix),

I don't think you can get away with zero wheat as its a binding agent, but as long as its not a main ingredient.
I have used NLS Cichlid (before Probiotix was released) on a variety of mbuna, hongi, kingsizi, maingano, several zebs, demasoni etc.
I'm aware of electric yellows selectively feeding on insects, crustations etc living in the algae/bio film and not predominantly browsing on algae.
I occasionally feed Mysis shrimp, which was recommended in an AD Konings book I have.

 

[MacZ]

They simply don't sell their stuff in my country. It's been hard to enter the market here since we have so many manufacturers having their headquarters here.
Looks ok so far, the whole wheat is my only problem in that list. I switched to foods that have only gluten as a binder instead.

Konings is always a good source. I have to get all my books back from my parents basement.