White spots on angel fish

[Atk3and2]

My angel fish has developed these white spots. It’s a 65 gallon community tank. Ammonia, 0; nitrite, 0; nitrate, 8, temp 77F. Professor Google seems to think ich or hole-in-the-head or something like that. Are those the same thing? The fish store opens at 10am tomorrow. What do I need to get to treat it?

 

[Fishfur]

My angel fish has developed these white spots. It’s a 65 gallon community tank. Ammonia, 0; nitrite, 0; nitrate, 8, temp 77F. Professor Google seems to think ich or hole-in-the-head or something like that. Are those the same thing? The fish store opens at 10am tomorrow. What do I need to get to treat it?
View attachment 911015

Welcome to Fishlore.

In this case, Professor Google can’t be trusted because it isn’t Ich and I’m fairly sure it isn’t HITH or LLE

HITH or HLLE follow the lateral line or affect the sensory pits on the head and these spots don’t appear to line up quite right.

Ich do not protrude like that from the skin and can’t appear from nowhere.

Those might be Epistylis - but I am not sure.

A pic taken from directly in front of the fish & clearly focused would be helpful to see and maybe one taken from directly above too.

 

[Atk3and2]

Welcome to Fishlore.

In this case, Professor Google can’t be trusted because it isn’t Ich and I’m fairly sure it isn’t HITH or LLE

HITH or HLLE follow the lateral line or affect the sensory pits on the head and these spots don’t appear to line up quite right.

Ich do not protrude like that from the skin and can’t appear from nowhere.

Those might be Epistylis - but I am not sure.

A pic taken from directly in front of the fish & clearly focused would be helpful to see and maybe one taken from directly above too.

I took a bunch. Hopefully I got a good view.

 

[Fishfur]

I hope some of our members with a lot more experience with Angelfish & other SA cichlids look at this - I’m not sure what’s going on. Maybe more than one thing.

SparkyJones, you out there? 86 ssinit?

 

[SparkyJones]

I was thinking HITH but that's not right with the ones on the eye edge otherwise it's falling the line of the sensory pits of angels though. I'm not sure but I'd think it's a parasite. I'd use 82F aquarium and paracleanse or metroplex to see if that clears it up. I'm 90% it's a parasite of some sort, not ich, maybe episylis, but I feel like it's more like Hexamita and that's why it's presenting sort of like HITH which is infected sensory pits.

Paracleanse works for both epistylis and hexamita, I think it would be the best place to start.

 

[Atk3and2]

I was thinking HITH but that's not right with the ones on the eye edge otherwise it's falling the line of the sensory pits of angels though. I'm not sure but I'd think it's a parasite. I'd use 82F aquarium and paracleanse or metroplex to see if that clears it up. I'm 90% it's a parasite of some sort, not ich, maybe episylis, but I feel like it's more like Hexamita and that's why it's presenting sort of like HITH which is infected sensory pits.

Paracleanse works for both epistylis and hexamita, I think it would be the best place to start.

I will start with that when the fish store opens this morning.

 

[SparkyJones]

The more I'm thinking on it, hexamita sounds right. Fish come with them in low numbers in the gut, it's pretty common. Some stress or weak diet causing weak immune system, can cause them to over populate. And you'll get these white heads of infection popping up around the sensory glands those white heads eventually pop and then it's a hole there. I think you just noticed it early to where it's not that bad yet and kind of looks like ich still.

Is the poop looking good good still or is it white and stringy? That would be another confirmation that it's hexamita between the pimples and the poop going white and long instead of more pellet like and thick and colored like the foods it eats.

Assuming hexamita with HITH from the hexamita, you may need metronidazole (meteoplex) plus it's good to help counter secondary infections and limit damage.

It may just clear up and reverse with the paracleanse though I'm not seeing anything far along enough to think you have to worry about secondary infections, but usually when the white heads pop, the hole that's left keeps growing from bacterial infection. And the metro comes in handy to treat that.

I wish I could find that diagram on the internet, its the locations of the sensory pits on cichlids but on all cichlids, they run down the lateral line of the fish and on the face they start at the nose and curve around both the eyes. Angels and discus have curved lateral lines from their body shape down their sides. It was good diagrams just can't find it to share it. Ot gives a better understanding of where they are and helps to diagnose if its sensory pits or not. Pretty sure the diagrams were in a scientific article on LLE/HITH.

Anyways I think in your case the HITH is secondary to the Hexamita and treating the hex will revert the HITH. If not and the white heads grow bigger and protrude more, you'd need the metro next so they don't get bacterially infected when they do pop.

Increased temp to 82F for angels is just to speed metabolism, it keeps their appetite up and aids in the medications running through the fish faster. A little food here or there every few hours, can be helpful also, when fish are sick they burn calories faster and don't feel good, dont want to go for the food so enthusiastically, so smaller more frequent feedings and hopefully he eats enough still and doesn't get rundown and weak.

 

[86 ssinit]

Hey sorry about your angel fish. Those dots are like pimples (nodes). Yes it will develop into hith/hex. Only thing needed to do is start changing water. Those dots are a sure sign that the water needs to be changed. Do every other day 50% water changes and they will go away. How often are you changing water now and how much?

 

[Atk3and2]

The more I'm thinking on it, hexamita sounds right. Fish come with them in low numbers in the gut, it's pretty common. Some stress or weak diet causing weak immune system, can cause them to over populate. And you'll get these white heads of infection popping up around the sensory glands those white heads eventually pop and then it's a hole there. I think you just noticed it early to where it's not that bad yet and kind of looks like ich still.

Is the poop looking good good still or is it white and stringy? That would be another confirmation that it's hexamita between the pimples and the poop going white and long instead of more pellet like and thick and colored like the foods it eats.

Assuming hexamita with HITH from the hexamita, you may need metronidazole (meteoplex) plus it's good to help counter secondary infections and limit damage.

It may just clear up and reverse with the paracleanse though I'm not seeing anything far along enough to think you have to worry about secondary infections, but usually when the white heads pop, the hole that's left keeps growing from bacterial infection. And the metro comes in handy to treat that.

I wish I could find that diagram on the internet, its the locations of the sensory pits on cichlids but on all cichlids, they run down the lateral line of the fish and on the face they start at the nose and curve around both the eyes. Angels and discus have curved lateral lines from their body shape down their sides. It was good diagrams just can't find it to share it. Ot gives a better understanding of where they are and helps to diagnose if its sensory pits or not. Pretty sure the diagrams were in a scientific article on LLE/HITH.

Anyways I think in your case the HITH is secondary to the Hexamita and treating the hex will revert the HITH. If not and the white heads grow bigger and protrude more, you'd need the metro next so they don't get bacterially infected when they do pop.

Increased temp to 82F for angels is just to speed metabolism, it keeps their appetite up and aids in the medications running through the fish faster. A little food here or there every few hours, can be helpful also, when fish are sick they burn calories faster and don't feel good, dont want to go for the food so enthusiastically, so smaller more frequent feedings and hopefully he eats enough still and doesn't get rundown and weak.

Got the metronidazole and started treating the tank. I’m not seeing white poop at this point. This particular fish was not as enthusiastic for feeding time as usual yesterday. I got the paracleanse just to have on hand in case I need it.

 

[SparkyJones]

Got the metronidazole and started treating the tank. I’m not seeing white poop at this point. This particular fish was not as enthusiastic for feeding time as usual yesterday. I got the paracleanse just to have on hand in case I need it.

Paracleanse is good to have if you buy wild caught fish or where you get fish is sketchy for parasites or fungus ect. Like the big box stores that don't really care so much sometimes. So if you get fish that might be sketchy, not quite right, quarantine and give them the paracleanse to be safe if all checks out then put them in your tank. It's saves a bigger headache with sketchy or sensitive or expensive fish.

Goes Without saying but just going to say it anyways, don't use both metro and paracleanse at the same time! It's a really bad idea. The two do different things but between the two they can knock most everything out by following the instructions.

Best of luck. I hope he feels better soon!

 

[Atk3and2]

Paracleanse is good to have if you buy wild caught fish or where you get fish is sketchy for parasites or fungus ect. Like the big box stores that don't really care so much sometimes. So if you get fish that might be sketchy, not quite right, quarantine and give them the paracleanse to be safe if all checks out then put them in your tank. It's saves a bigger headache with sketchy or sensitive or expensive fish.

Goes Without saying but just going to say it anyways, don't use both metro and paracleanse at the same time! It's a really bad idea. The two do different things but between the two they can knock most everything out by following the instructions.

Best of luck. I hope he feels better soon!

Thanks. I’ll definitely keep the paracleanse for if I really need it. The spots seems a bit smaller on the angel today. I’ve had a few fish suddenly die the last couple weeks, so maybe they were affected too but didn’t hang out for me to see them. The last was a kuhli loach, and I don’t see them very often.

 

[SparkyJones]

Could be totally random but for something to do, you could try water testing and temp testing randomly through the day, see if you get different or consistent results for a couple days. The random deaths could all be related to stress including the hexamita. Could be a slow heater or cold drops at night, or not enough aeration at points. Your parameters for ammonia nitrite and nitrate look good, how is the KH and GH and pH? 77f is ok for angels and should be a problem there unless it's swinging lower at night?

Maybe just log the parameters at various times for a couple days and see if it's stable and consistent.

 

[Atk3and2]

Could be totally random but for something to do, you could try water testing and temp testing randomly through the day, see if you get different or consistent results for a couple days. The random deaths could all be related to stress including the hexamita. Could be a slow heater or cold drops at night, or not enough aeration at points. Your parameters for ammonia nitrite and nitrate look good, how is the KH and GH and pH? 77f is ok for angels and should be a problem there unless it's swinging lower at night?

Maybe just log the parameters at various times for a couple days and see if it's stable and consistent.

Ph is 7.4. I am on a well, and the natural ph is over 8, so I lower it before using in the tank. Gh was 10 and KH was 4. I have very hard well water with particularly high iron, and I bypass my water softener, then flush the pipes before using the water for the tank.

Hard to tell for sure, but there is a new spot on this rainbow. I can’t really tell if it’s a scratch or a white spot.

 

[SparkyJones]

That looks like early ich to me but pretty early.The metro treatment you're doing will work on it also though. Ich doesn't lead to HITH, but what the angel has isn't ich, it wouldn't be on or around the eyes. So I think you got a couple things going on at once. The metronidazole should fix both though.

 

[Atk3and2]

That looks like early ich to me but pretty early.The metro treatment you're doing will work on it also though. Ich doesn't lead to HITH, but what the angel has isn't ich, it wouldn't be on or around the eyes. So I think you got a couple things going on at once. The metronidazole should fix both though.

Thank you so much. This has been so helpful with my first experience with a fish health issue in the tank.

 

[SparkyJones]

issues like you have, in my opinion stem from stress, the fish get run down from stress events and they get sick with something, and while Ich or hexamita or a variety of illnesses COULD happen, they generally don't happen one after another or at the same time, when you get this "cascade" effect of illnesses and deaths, you'd be checking diet, parameters, cleanliness and consistency of the tank and water, looking for what might be causing stress. When the immune system gets run down from stress, various minor issues that their immune system keeps in check can get out of hand and cause this situation you have.

I'd just recommend really keeping an eye on testing, and review their diet and the water quality and look for any event that might be causing the fish to stress, check the fish regularly also. see if you notice anything "odd" in behavior.
Signs of Stress would be:
Loss of appetite.
Hiding or Isolating
Frantic swimming running into things, odd swimming that's out of norm.
Gasping and puffing their gills, gulping at the water.
Fading color of the fish
Out of character aggression for the species, it's also a behavior change from stress in non-aggressive species, they'll chase and nip relentlessly sometimes when they should be cruising it would be caused by stress.

May help you find the issue that's causing these various illnesses.