Water issue please advise

[ShinyMoose]

Hello, I have a cycled since February, 45 gallon tank that is showing strange water results.

1.0ppm ammonia 0ppm nitrite and 5ppm nitrate. I did a water change of 3 buckets today (I use a 5 gallon bucket and fill it up most of the way so I’d estimate 4 1/2 gallons each bucket for a total of about 17 1/2 gallon fresh water) and the ammonia etc still show the same levels after several hours (5+hrs).

I DID have a new couple fish (green emerald Cory’s) die the end of last week, I found one but could not find the other one. Three days ago my tests were 0 ammonia 0 nitrite and 5 nitrate, that was a day after a large water change of about 4 buckets so abt 22 gallons the previous day. I did the large water change because my ammonia and nitrite were 0.5 ammonia, 0.25 nitrite and 5 nitrate. I was trying to find the other dead fish, but figured my little crab or mystery snails got to it first since I still didn’t find it.

My tank is narrow and tall, a Marineland tank so in order to move things around to look without my arm being in the water up to my armpit, I needed to do a larger water change. I am short so have short arms!!

Could the dead fish still be in there somewhere? I did not pull out the moss tree, but I did lift up the ship to look under it, I can pretty much see everywhere else in the tank. Did I cause my tank to recycle because of the large water change? But wouldn’t that show more nitrite?

In the tank I have 2 Bolivian Rams, an emerald green Cory (which I’ve had for a few weeks before I got the 2 newer ones that died), 2 neon tetras (yes I know there should be more, I just have not had time to restock them yet), a crab, a couple rainbow shrimp and a few mystery snails.

I had been over feeding my tank a little until a week ago because my newer ram (4 weeks here now) has not been eating, so I was doing small daily water changes to pick up any leftover food and the water parameters were doing good still. I stopped feeding extra a week ago although she’s still not eating the food I put in the tank, I do occasionally see her peck at the moss tree or ship, and while she’s super skinny and still not showing interest in any foods I put in the tank, she’s still alive. I have a separate ongoing thread about my Ram issue already.

I have not fed yet today as I’m thinking I should hold off a few days until I can get my water corrected? Should I add some extra Prime to detoxify the ammonia? More water changes or what should I be doing? The test kit works fine, it’s not expired. I’ve also tested my 10 gallon tank with the same kit and that’s at 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 5 nitrate.

Adding photos of my tank that I took on Saturday. I also did not pull up the bamboo tubes, the crab and shrimp like to hide in those.

 

[Frank the Fish guy]

Sounds like the tank is having a small ammonia spike due to the dead fish. Smell the water and if you can smell rot, then you will need to go in there and find the carcass. Check the filter. Some tanks can get into a cycle where a dead fish rots and starts killing the next fish and you slowly kill the tank. You want to avoid that.

It's a nice tank. Hope it smells good too!

 

[ShinyMoose]

I don’t smell any rot in the water, it just smells like normal fish tank water… thankfully!

I have the Marineland Penguin 375 filter with the bio wheel. I replaced the filters with new ones a week ago, I left the bio wheels alone like you’re supposed to. It’s more than a 45 gallon tank needs but I like a clean tank so went with the bigger filter system. I also changed out the main intake on the hose and put a pre filter on there instead to make it safer for the fish. Before I did that I had an angelfish get stuck on the intake…. I think he was already a bit weakened, it was pretty small and the lfs had just gotten them in the day before I bought it, they told me he was the lone survivor of the group they got in. He lasted a few days in my tank before I found him stuck to the filter intake after work one afternoon….

Should I change out the water again tomorrow (and how much of a replacement), or do it every other day until the spike is under control? Also, should I add some extra Prime to neutralize the ammonia or just work with the water changes? I’m also holding off feeding for today, should I hold off a few days or feed once every other day?

 

[Aaronious]

I have literally lost fish in my 75, I have torn the tank apart and still no fish. Snails, bottom dwellers and even that ram would probably be happy to take a bit here and there.

I agree though, sounds like a bit of an ammonia spike from the dead fish. looks like you have all plastic decor, so I would probably pick everything up, give it a little jiggle and see if the dead fish turn up. If not, keep an eye on ammonia and do not change your filter media, but do check it for the dead fish. If you change it, you'll loose a bunch of bacteria that would otherwise help you fight the ammonia spike.

If you find that ammonia is still present, I would do water changes and try to keep it under 0.15 ammonia, remember a 50% cuts the amount in half.

 

[Flyfisha]

Here is the reason the tank has ammonia.
Quote
“ I replaced the filters with new ones a week ago”

Regardless of what the manufacturers say the normal practice is to only replace filter pads/ cartridges/ foam or sponge after a few years. Only when it’s falling apart. You tossed out most of the bacteria last week. Continue doing small water changes for the next fortnight if you have any ammonia present.

You are not the first person to have this happen.

 

[FishDin]

In 12 years of fish keeping I have never replaced a filter pad or media. I have fish that are as old as the filter pads. I know that it is a money maker for the manufacturers, but I've never read or heard what their reasoning is. Do they even explain why they "must" be replaced?

I checked with Fluval and they say that after a year or so they can no longeer be cleaned and they wear out. I say no to both of those points. They recommend changing them every 6 months before they wear out. Smart merchandising.

 

[ShinyMoose]

Here is the reason the tank has ammonia.
Quote
“ I replaced the filters with new ones a week ago”

Regardless of what the manufacturers say the normal practice is to only replace filter pads/ cartridges/ foam or sponge after a few years. Only when it’s falling apart. You tossed out most of the bacteria last week. Continue doing small water changes for the next fortnight if you have any ammonia present.

You are not the first person to have this happen.

I thought you were supposed to change out the filter pads regularly, but not the bio wheel in the setup I have. The Marineland Penguin 375 has two bio wheels, along with space for 1 or two filter pads on each side of it.

If the filter pads (which contain some carbon as well) are not supposed to be changed then should I rinse them monthly? There’s also a media basket for additional filtering if needed, and I have a pre filter sponge on the intake tube that I rinse monthly, but don’t change out.

With that said, today I did do about a 70% water change, I picked up both the bamboo moss tubes, and the one that was hidden behind the ship had a rotten smell…. And a little slime on it so I threw that one out. I’m assuming the crab was chowing down on the dead fish while on that tube as he likes to hide in the tubes.

After the large water change I checked my parameters after a couple hours, the ammonia was down between 0 & .25, 0 nitrite and 5 nitrate. I had assumed since the nitrates have been good and the same all this time, as well as the nitrites that the cycle was still ok…

I will check the parameters again tomorrow after I get home from work to see where they are. Hopefully throwing out that bamboo tube takes care of the issue!!

So, just to double clarify. With my particular filter system, with the (4) carbon filters plus 2 bio wheels, I should NOT be changing out the filter pads? And if NOT, should I be rinsing them monthly?

Thank you everyone for all the advice!!

In 12 years of fish keeping I have never replaced a filter pad or media. I have fish that are as old as the filter pads. I know that it is a money maker for the manufacturers, but I've never read or heard what their reasoning is. Do they even explain why they "must" be replaced?

I checked with Fluval and they say that after a year or so they can no longeer be cleaned and they wear out. I say no to both of those points. They recommend changing them every 6 months before they wear out. Smart merchandising.

Would definitely save me money to NOT have to change them like they recommend!!! The recommendation on the guide said to change every 2 weeks to a month!!

I have literally lost fish in my 75, I have torn the tank apart and still no fish. Snails, bottom dwellers and even that ram would probably be happy to take a bit here and there.

I agree though, sounds like a bit of an ammonia spike from the dead fish. looks like you have all plastic decor, so I would probably pick everything up, give it a little jiggle and see if the dead fish turn up. If not, keep an eye on ammonia and do not change your filter media, but do check it for the dead fish. If you change it, you'll loose a bunch of bacteria that would otherwise help you fight the ammonia spike.

If you find that ammonia is still present, I would do water changes and try to keep it under 0.15 ammonia, remember a 50% cuts the amount in half.

Oh gosh, I looked everywhere for that dead fish except for actually lifting up the bamboo moss tubes and the moss tree, which I did both today! And I found one tube that was smelly with a small amount of something slimy looking on it, so possibly remnants of the dead fish…. Lol. It’s now in the trash, so hopefully that was the main problem. And also it sounds like changing my filter pads out was the other issue.

By the way, the only thing plastic in my tank is the shipwreck! The rest are live plants (one in a terra cotta glazed pot and another wrapped up in a moss ball that’s already rooting into my sand, the rest are planted around the tank and hopefully will take off like the water Lilly bulb is (which is the red plant next to the blue dish). I have a layer of substrate beneficial for plants on the very bottom of the tank, then a layer of the pebbles, then sand on one side for the Rams to enjoy. Then I have 2 driftwood, moss ball/tree/tubes, the large Sandstone rock and a small terra cotta pot for hiding in and a blue glazed clay plant dish that I thought would be a nice area for the Rams to breed once the plants grew in more around it. (and if my female Ram ever starts eating and gets healthy enough to breed).

It’s still a new tank since February and needs a lot of work but I’m hoping for plants to fill in more before I add more to it.

 

[Flyfisha]

Yes rinse the pads each month or anytime the flow of water is backing up and going around the sides. Once a month should be fine.

Many people myself included use a chunk of foam cut from a sheet the appropriate thickness. That may last longer before it fall apart? Cartridges are ok but the carbon stops working quickly. On the matter of carbon it is not needed at all . Nobody in my local club uses carbon continuously. I don’t know of anyone that uses carbon at all . It can remove medication after a course of treatment is finished. But so do water changes eventually.

I can understand you tossing the bamboo out at this time. I don’t want to sound like an old nag? But I just want to say bacteria life on all hard surfaces including the glass and gravel. They decide where is to their liking. As the tank is new ish and the colonies of bacteria are not fully established, as their numbers are low for the time being don’t clean the side and back panels of glass . Don’t deep vacuum. Don’t wipe things clean. The sponge pre filter may or may not need a rinse this month. If it does just go gently on the ringing out . A rinse like a tea bag at time should be enough.
In a few weeks time you can clean one panel of glass then another next wee and so on. Change water as often as possible. Almost no bacteria live in the water. No bacteria live permanently in the water.

At the risk of shocking the fish it’s safe to change up to 50% at one time. Clearly your fish can handle bigger changes of 70% but don’t push it. Much better to change 45% to 50% in the morning and if you want, to change another 45% in the evening. Or the next day , anytime after a few hours.

 

[Aaronious]

I use sponges and plastic pot scrubbers from the dollar store. I do use some sponges specifically made for some of my canister filters. But that's just cause they fit perfectly and want one or two sections that catch everything leaving less space on the sides. Nothing else, just sponges for my filters.

 

[ShinyMoose]

Yes rinse the pads each month or anytime the flow of water is backing up and going around the sides. Once a month should be fine.

Many people myself included use a chunk of foam cut from a sheet the appropriate thickness. That may last longer before it fall apart? Cartridges are ok but the carbon stops working quickly. On the matter of carbon it is not needed at all . Nobody in my local club uses carbon continuously. I don’t know of anyone that uses carbon at all . It can remove medication after a course of treatment is finished. But so do water changes eventually.

I can understand you tossing the bamboo out at this time. I don’t want to sound like an old nag? But I just want to say bacteria life on all hard surfaces including the glass and gravel. They decide where is to their liking. As the tank is new ish and the colonies of bacteria are not fully established, as their numbers are low for the time being don’t clean the side and back panels of glass . Don’t deep vacuum. Don’t wipe things clean. The sponge pre filter may or may not need a rinse this month. If it does just go gently on the ringing out . A rinse like a tea bag at time should be enough.
In a few weeks time you can clean one panel of glass then another next wee and so on. Change water as often as possible. Almost no bacteria live in the water. No bacteria live permanently in the water.

At the risk of shocking the fish it’s safe to change up to 50% at one time. Clearly your fish can handle bigger changes of 70% but don’t push it. Much better to change 45% to 50% in the morning and if you want, to change another 45% in the evening. Or the next day , anytime after a few hours.

Thank you so much for the advice! I never even thought about not wiping the glass etc…. Makes sense! I thought it was just the two bio wheels I needed to never change unless they broke or something.

I threw out only the one bamboo tube as it smelled and had a little slime around the top edge…. Yuck!! But I kept the larger one since it didn’t smell and no slime. Lol

I actually bought some alternative filter/spongy like thing at petsmart for a hospital/quarantine tank I set up a couple weeks ago. It is an extra large piece that I cut down to the smaller size I needed because the filter it came with had carbon in it, which I didn’t want in the hospital/quarantine tank. That tank is currently cycling still.

I’m sure I could use the same stuff (I only used a small portion of it), to slowly replace the current filters in my main tank one at a time (I use 2 on each side of the filter unit so have 4 in total). But I can wait a while before I start doing that since these are new ones so it sounds like I need to get the bacteria growing on them and let them stay in a long time...

I don’t usually do that large of a water change, but was worried about the high level of ammonia…. The fish seem to be acting the same as they always have been so they must have tolerated it this time. Since those buckets are heavy I usually only fill two of them (abt 9 gallons) for weekly water changes. I’ve been using Prime to declorinate, Microbe-lift special blend and Nite-Out ll for tank cycling and at water changes.

Well, Mr. Crab still has the bigger bamboo moss tube to hide in, and he’s currently enjoying hanging out on the moss tree right now, waving his claw back and forth. I’m sure he’s throwing a few choice words at me for messing up the tank. Haha!


!

I use sponges and plastic pot scrubbers from the dollar store. I do use some sponges specifically made for some of my canister filters. But that's just cause they fit perfectly and want one or two sections that catch everything leaving less space on the sides. Nothing else, just sponges for my filters.

Thanks for sharing! Some day I’d like to get a better filtering system, but for now this one was decently priced and on sale so I figured it would be good to start with. I’ll try working in the sponge filters one at a time once my tank is cycled fully for longer. If I do it slowly over time it shouldn’t mess things up too badly since I have 4 filter cartridges in there now, replacing one every couple months.

 

[ShinyMoose]

Just an update, after the ammonia spike I had a nitrite spike, but both have settled down to 0ppm. Now the tank seems to have a bit of rising Nitrates, yesterday they tested around 10 to 20? The colors seem so close to the same so it’s hard to tell which…. I added some Microbe-Lift Special Blend to the tank which says it reduces Nitrates, so hopefully that will help. I have not tested the levels yet today but I will tonight since that will be about 24hrs since I added the Special Blend to my tank.

Does anyone have any advice on using this product?

Also, my plants have really taken off since my last tank photo, especially the lily bulbs I had in the tank! I love how they look, but might need to start trimming them back a little already…

So here’s an updated photo of my tank. My mystery snails have been laying eggs in both my tanks, so I have a container that is showing in this photo, floating at the top that has a couple clutches of eggs inside it from my other tank. I found a clutch today (the first one in this tank since I usually have the water line higher) that I thought I would just leave alone where it’s at and let it naturally do it’s thing.

 

[Nopsu]

I use only coarse sponges (cut from big sheet) and biomedia ( half of media is biomedia in canister). Never had to change any in 5 years due breaking. I gave up filter floss too since it just clogs up very fast but sure does make water more clear.

Those carbon filled cartridges can be cut open with scissors and remove the carbon. I've heard some do this on new ones too and just stuff the new one with the old cartridge instead.

 

[ShinyMoose]

I use only coarse sponges (cut from big sheet) and biomedia ( half of media is biomedia in canister). Never had to change any in 5 years due breaking. I gave up filter floss too since it just clogs up very fast but sure does make water more clear.

Those carbon filled cartridges can be cut open with scissors and remove the carbon. I've heard some do this on new ones too and just stuff the new one with the old cartridge instead.

Yes, I did find a big sheet of a course spongelike material that I will be cutting to the proper size and start slowly replacing the filter cartridges that are recommended (which I currently have in there) for my filtering system. I don’t want to do that yet as I don’t want to have a cycle restart issue like I had before, but maybe in another month I will change out one a month until all 4 are changed out.

For now though, I’m wanting to lower the Nitrates some since they are creeping up, so was wondering if just using the Microbe-Lift Special blend would be enough to help lower the Nitrates since the ammonia and nitrites have been at 0 for a few weeks now.

 

[Flyfisha]

Nitrates are bacteria poop.
All cycled tanks have nitrates in them .
Nitrates are safe for fish up to some very high amounts. Only long term exposure to very high levels of nitrates leads to health issues long term .

As I have to “pick a number “ in order to write an answer I am going to say 40 ppm is a safe level for fish just before a weekly water change.

We all do water changes to remove nitrates when we have fish .
Some say nitrates are safe at around 80ppm , other people choose to keep them at around 20 ppm or less.

Yes ok technically a very heavily planted tank will also use a little nitrates to feed plants.

I have not used that product you mentioned.
It is ( salt water) reef safe . I have no experience with salt water but believe nitrates are totally different in their world.

 

[ShinyMoose]

Nitrates are bacteria poop.
All cycled tanks have nitrates in them .
Nitrates are safe for fish up to some very high amounts. Only long term exposure to very high levels of nitrates leads to health issues long term .

As I have to “pick a number “ in order to write an answer I am going to say 40 ppm is a safe level for fish just before a weekly water change.

We all do water changes to remove nitrates when we have fish .
Some say nitrates are safe at around 80ppm , other people choose to keep them at around 20 ppm or less.

Yes ok technically a very heavily planted tank will also use a little nitrates to feed plants.

I have not used that product you mentioned.
It is ( salt water) reef safe . I have no experience with salt water but believe nitrates are totally different in their world.

Then I shouldn’t worry about the Nitrates being between 10 and 20 it sounds like. Good to know! After having to haul buckets repeatedly during my ammonia and nitrite spikes I ended up buying python water changer. Makes it sooo much easier to do water changes!

And yes this product says reef safe so it’s also able to be used in both fresh and salt water tanks. So far, along with Prime, this is what I’ve used to cycle my tanks and it seems to be a pretty great product. The combination of Microbe-Lift Special Blend and Nite-Out I’ve been pretty impressed with, although I’m just getting into the hobby so still have a lot to learn.

 

[Flyfisha]

I had a quick search for the microbe- lift special product. It seems the manufacturers would like you to add it to every water change forever. ( large bottles last 46 weeks) . At least with fresh water tanks that is completely unnecessary. I will not write about salt water but nobody in any of the Australian clubs I belong to uses any bottled bacteria at all.
If it gives you convenience and is working for you continue until the bottle runs out. I suggest you ask anyone who is not financially advantaged by telling you to use it what they think.

Definitely don’t worry about nitrates in your tank.

 

[FishDin]

Then I shouldn’t worry about the Nitrates being between 10 and 20 it sounds like. Good to know! After having to haul buckets repeatedly during my ammonia and nitrite spikes I ended up buying python water changer. Makes it sooo much easier to do water changes!

And yes this product says reef safe so it’s also able to be used in both fresh and salt water tanks. So far, along with Prime, this is what I’ve used to cycle my tanks and it seems to be a pretty great product. The combination of Microbe-Lift Special Blend and Nite-Out I’ve been pretty impressed with, although I’m just getting into the hobby so still have a lot to learn.

You are going to get various answers to your nitrate question. I keep mine out of the red, so 20ppm and below. Your plants don't need it to be that high. Some planted tank people keep it below 5ppm. For me, that has not worked.

Most of the research I've seen was done for the aquaculture industry, where long term effects are not an issue as the fish will live less than a year or so. Since we want our fish to live long healthy lives, I prefer to keep poison exposure to a minimum. Also, young, developing fish are much more sensitive to nitrate.

 

[ShinyMoose]

I had a quick search for the microbe- lift special product. It seems the manufacturers would like you to add it to every water change forever. ( large bottles last 46 weeks) . At least with fresh water tanks that is completely unnecessary. I will not write about salt water but nobody in any of the Australian clubs I belong to uses any bottled bacteria at all.
If it gives you convenience and is working for you continue until the bottle runs out. I suggest you ask anyone who is not financially advantaged by telling you to use it what they think.

Definitely don’t worry about nitrates in your tank.

Thank you for the advice! And yes, it can get pretty expensive if you’re adding it all the time with water changes. I haven’t been adding it with my normal water changes. I added it in the beginning to start the cycle, and then somewhat followed the directions on adding some on the directed days afterwards until the cycle became established. Then also when I did large water changes when I accidentally restarted my cycle and had the ammonia then nitrite spikes. I did add a little the other day to see if it would help the rising nitrates, I got busy yesterday so didn’t test the water but I’ll do that today. I feel better now about my Nitrate levels so thank you for your comments!