Sick chocolate cichlid is it HITH?

Papasmerf73

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I have been trying to research but don't have an answer. A couple of days ago I saw a small scratch on the back of my chocolate cichlids head. Well, now today it is at least 2x the size. I can't determine if it is hole in the head as it doesn't seem, from research, that it progresses that rapidly but I have never dealt with it before. I just fed him some blood worms soaked in Metroplex for awhile. Please help. Thanks.
 

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I am not sure, but it doesn’t really look typical of HITH. To me it looks more like an injury that may have become infected. I could well be wrong though. Perhaps you should fill in the emergency template, it would be useful to know about water conditions, tank mates etc.
 

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Tank
What is the water volume of the tank? 75g
How long has the tank been running? 18 mos
Does it have a filter? Yes, 50 Aquaclear, tidal 110, xl sponge, spinning media filter.
Does it have a heater? Yes
What is the water temperature? 79-80
What is the entire stocking of this tank? Medium and small severum, small angel, medium altifrons, small tapajos, small albino Heckelli, siamese algae eater, 3 denison barbs, 8 red eye tetra, small atabapo pleco (Please list all fish and inverts.)

Maintenance
How often do you change the water? 8-10 days
How much of the water do you change? 60-70%
What do you use to treat your water? Fritz complete
Do you vacuum the substrate or just the water? Mostly just water

*Parameters - Very Important
Did you cycle your tank before adding fish? Yes
What do you use to test the water? Api freshwater test kit
What are your parameters? We need to know the exact numbers, not just “fine” or “safe”.
Ammonia:0
Nitrite:0
Nitrate:40
pH: 7.1

Feeding
How often do you feed your fish? 1x daily 4x, 2 days 2x when feeding frozen blood worms, then brine shrimp, 1 day fast
How much do you feed your fish? Probably too much
What brand of food do you feed your fish? Hikari, Xtreme, dr. Basseleers, northfin.
Do you feed frozen?yes
Do you feed freeze-dried foods?yes

Illness & Symptoms
How long have you had this fish? 6+ mos
How long ago did you first notice these symptoms? 2-3 days
In a few words, can you explain the symptoms? Looked like a small scrape behind the head. Today it looks like it has doubled in the size. Still eating and swimming no issues. No other fish have any similar issues.
Have you started any treatment for the illness? Mixed some Metroplex in with a frozen blood worms and tried to spot feed the chocolate. Ate a bunch.
Was your fish physically ill or injured upon purchase?no
How has its behavior and appearance changed, if at all?none

Explain your emergency situation in detail.
(Please give a clear explanation of what is going on, include details from the beginning of the illness leading up to now) Small scrape looking to doubling in size when I saw it today. I don't see anything bothering him as besides the gold severum he is the biggest in the tank. And the severum is a wimp.
 

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Is there anything in the tank it could have scraped its head on? Sounds like a cool tank btw.
 
The tank is pretty heavily stocked and nitrates fairly high so HITH is a possibility, if that is the case metroplex is the correct treatment but you should also do some more frequent water changes and try to reduce nitrates. If it is an infected wound then the metroplex won’t help and a different treatment would be in order (though water changes would still be good). I am really not sure what it is and if HITH it seems strange for it to appear so suddenly. I hope someone else will know. A201
 
Its definitely in a common HITH spot. Looks more like a gash though. The fact he's eating and acting normal is good. is it possible he was chasing something and scraped his head on a rock?

This might sound crazy, but check the heater just to rule it out. I had a fish get absolutely beat to shreds from a heater on the fritz. Didn't realize it until I was getting little shocks in my hand cleaning the glass haha.

Metro in the food as you are doing is definitely a safe bet. I also use seachem stress guard to protect open wounds from secondary infections. Lots of products on the market for scrapes like tea tree oil based products as well. Keep those water changes up, that's going to be the biggest part. Remove carbon if applicable.
 

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I had a fish look similar (I think, here’s pics). I worried it was columnaris, then figured he got wedged between rocks, and finally realized he had been beaten up. After a year in the tank with the bully and no issues. So it could be that even if your fish always got along in the past. Try separating or even putting in a breeder net and see if he gets better (and if he’s in a net you will see if a fish tries to attack).
 

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I had a fish look similar (I think, here’s pics). I worried it was columnaris, then figured he got wedged between rocks, and finally realized he had been beaten up. After a year in the tank with the bully and no issues. So it could be that even if your fish always got along in the past. Try separating or even putting in a breeder net and see if he gets better (and if he’s in a net you will see if a fish tries to attack).
Poor yellow labs. Always getting picked on!!!
 
Poor yellow labs. Always getting picked on!!!
Whats funny is they turned around (once the ones bullying them were gone) and killed 24 pristella tetras overnight. Tossed them like chum. I have only one Lab left and I love him. I’m thinking of moving him to my 40 breeder and having him as the only fish but I don’t know if he will have a depressing life and if I should instead just rehome him to my awesome LFS. I’m stuck and can’t decide.
 
Whats funny is they turned around (once the ones bullying them were gone) and killed 24 pristella tetras overnight. Tossed them like chum. I have only one Lab left and I love him. I’m thinking of moving him to my 40 breeder and having him as the only fish but I don’t know if he will have a depressing life and if I should instead just rehome him to my awesome LFS. I’m stuck and can’t decide.
That sounds like quite the villain arc story!! I wouldn't leave him alone in a 40 for a few reasons. If you want, try your hand at breeding. I could not stop my yellow labs from breeding in my 40. I hate giving fish back to the LFS, never know who is going to buy them. Anything I re-home, the LFS employees take it first haha. Least I know they're going to good knowledgeable owners.
 
That sounds like quite the villain arc story!! I wouldn't leave him alone in a 40 for a few reasons. If you want, try your hand at breeding. I could not stop my yellow labs from breeding in my 40. I hate giving fish back to the LFS, never know who is going to buy them. Anything I re-home, the LFS employees take it first haha. Least I know they're going to good knowledgeable owners.
Wait so I shouldn’t keep him or I should? You said wouldn’t keep alone for a few reasons that’s all! Should but with tankmates? Bc he’s killed a few. Or she!
 

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Wait so I shouldn’t keep him or I should? You said wouldn’t keep alone for a few reasons that’s all! Should but with tankmates? Bc he’s killed a few. Or she!
Pretty confident it is a male due to the black on the ventral fins. If you want to keep him, maybe make a breeding group in the 40? Feel like that's better then using a 40 gallon for 1 fish and keeping him alone. Also think it might be difficult keeping a strong cycle. Typically cichlids in general, do better in groups. Labs are considered more on the peaceful side, but still far too aggressive for typical community tank fish. Message me, lets not high jack this post any further haha.
 
Please remember this is Papasmurf73’s thread lets concentrate on their questions, if you have questions about your own fish then start a separate thread.
 
Hmm. Is the nitrates being at 40 after a water change or is it as high as it goes?

Reason being it's not in a location where I'd suspect it was HITH, close but a little too high up on the head and usually lower aroind the eyes, nose and cheeks, and you said it started with a scratch, not a pimple or cyst or bump. That's wouldn't be HITH if it started from a scratch.

It would be a bacterially infected wound. Generally if nitrites are high, the bad bacteria, the decay bacteria are also high and working overtime beaking stuff down especially when your changing about 100% of the aquarium water a month but the nitrates aren't low and in control and seem to keep running up. It generally means there's waste sitting in the tank that's breaking down.
Nitrates in and of themselves aren't that dangerous, but they get downplayed as to their actual significance on what they indicate, elevated levels of nitrates indicate elevated levels of decay bacteria.

So when nitrates are high, you have a lot more decay bacteria breaking stuff down, that stuff is adding nitrates, as well as dissolved solids. The nitrates and dissolved solids makes living harder on the fish and they get run down, specifically their immune system from stress, then an injury happens and the bacteria can set up shop in the wound and they can't fight it off and heal back up.

Meds will help it, slow it down even get it to clear up but unless you address the root cause of it it's going to return when you stop medicating at some point.

Just my opinion and it looks planted and you probably don't want to hear it but the tank is on 18 months, just water changing, a year and a half of food and poop buildup in the substrate, stuff the filter can't get to because it was too heavy that has settled in.
It's the likely reason your nitrates and bacteria are elevated, and why now wounds aren't healing as they should.

Because it's a year and a half I'd suggest cleaning the substrate, but no more than a quarter to a half the tank at a time until you've gone through it all, (could be some nasty built up at the bottom that releases, and doing it all at once from the start can sometimes kill fish if there's enough of it) then one entire once over to get it completely cleaned out, getting that out of there will make the nitrates manageable again and reduce the bacteria count, de-stressing the fish and allowing their immune systems to strengthen and fight off problems themselves again.
Unless you have plants that are really efficient at getting rid of nitrates and stock in a manner that a balance is created between nitrate production and nitrate consumption, and you don't feel you need to heavy feed to make sure everyone has enough to eat, cleaning the substrate will have to happen or it stacks up out of sight. The water changing alone becomes not enough after a while and the bottom of the tank becomes a bacteria and nitrate factory.

I don't think it's HITH based on the information given, I think it's an infected injury and believe that's your root cause for it getting infected.
I don't believe it's overstocked but it is too heavily stocked for what you are doing with water changing and at this point what's sitting at the bottom is producing more nitrates breaking it down than the plants can use and there's an army down there breaking stuff down. Removing the waste removes their food, and reduces their numbers. The fish will all look better and grow faster if they aren't fighting off bacteria infection attempts constantly also.

Wish you the best of luck! Vacuuming out substrate isn't fun can be a pain and usually messes up a person's entire scape to do it but sometimes it's just got to happen kind of like spring cleaning.

HITH, generally happens with the cichlids sensory pits, it's kind of specific in that regard. the sensory pits are in specific locations and if you really pay attention to the fish you'll see them, along the lateral line in a cluster, and clustered on the face and cheeks, between the nose and eyes they they are for detecting movement and keeping equilibrium and balance ect. there like tiny pockets or fluid and a fine short hair that detects changes and sends an impulse telling the fish what's going on. those sensory pits will get infected with Hexamita and it sort of forms a pimple or cyst looking thing that eventually pops and leaves a hole, and does spread along this system of sensory pits to other sensory pits as it progresses. seconday infections with bacteria, Heximita spreads to new pits, ect.
If you aren't seeing it function like that, it's not HITH.

If Heximita, I'd still tell you to clean up the tank, get the nitrates and bacteria down, and supplement the diet as a big step one, before going to medications.
 
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  • #15
Hmm. Is the nitrates being at 40 after a water change or is it as high as it goes?

Reason being it's not in a location where I'd suspect it was HITH, close but a little too high up on the head and usually lower aroind the eyes, nose and cheeks, and you said it started with a scratch, not a pimple or cyst or bump. That's wouldn't be HITH if it started from a scratch.

It would be a bacterially infected wound. Generally if nitrites are high, the bad bacteria, the decay bacteria are also high and working overtime beaking stuff down especially when your changing about 100% of the aquarium water a month but the nitrates aren't low and in control and seem to keep running up. It generally means there's waste sitting in the tank that's breaking down.
Nitrates in and of themselves aren't that dangerous, but they get downplayed as to their actual significance on what they indicate, elevated levels of nitrates indicate elevated levels of decay bacteria.

So when nitrates are high, you have a lot more decay bacteria breaking stuff down, that stuff is adding nitrates, as well as dissolved solids. The nitrates and dissolved solids makes living harder on the fish and they get run down, specifically their immune system from stress, then an injury happens and the bacteria can set up shop in the wound and they can't fight it off and heal back up.

Meds will help it, slow it down even get it to clear up but unless you address the root cause of it it's going to return when you stop medicating at some point.

Just my opinion and it looks planted and you probably don't want to hear it but the tank is on 18 months, just water changing, a year and a half of food and poop buildup in the substrate, stuff the filter can't get to because it was too heavy that has settled in.
It's the likely reason your nitrates and bacteria are elevated, and why now wounds aren't healing as they should.

Because it's a year and a half I'd suggest cleaning the substrate, but no more than a quarter to a half the tank at a time until you've gone through it all, (could be some nasty built up at the bottom that releases, and doing it all at once from the start can sometimes kill fish if there's enough of it) then one entire once over to get it completely cleaned out, getting that out of there will make the nitrates manageable again and reduce the bacteria count, de-stressing the fish and allowing their immune systems to strengthen and fight off problems themselves again.
Unless you have plants that are really efficient at getting rid of nitrates and stock in a manner that a balance is created between nitrate production and nitrate consumption, and you don't feel you need to heavy feed to make sure everyone has enough to eat, cleaning the substrate will have to happen or it stacks up out of sight. The water changing alone becomes not enough after a while and the bottom of the tank becomes a bacteria and nitrate factory.

I don't think it's HITH based on the information given, I think it's an infected injury and believe that's your root cause for it getting infected.
I don't believe it's overstocked but it is too heavily stocked for what you are doing with water changing and at this point what's sitting at the bottom is producing more nitrates breaking it down than the plants can use and there's an army down there breaking stuff down. Removing the waste removes their food, and reduces their numbers. The fish will all look better and grow faster if they aren't fighting off bacteria infection attempts constantly also.

Wish you the best of luck! Vacuuming out substrate isn't fun can be a pain and usually messes up a person's entire scape to do it but sometimes it's just got to happen kind of like spring cleaning.

HITH, generally happens with the cichlids sensory pits, it's kind of specific in that regard. the sensory pits are in specific locations and if you really pay attention to the fish you'll see them, along the lateral line in a cluster, and clustered on the face and cheeks, between the nose and eyes they they are for detecting movement and keeping equilibrium and balance ect. there like tiny pockets or fluid and a fine short hair that detects changes and sends an impulse telling the fish what's going on. those sensory pits will get infected with Hexamita and it sort of forms a pimple or cyst looking thing that eventually pops and leaves a hole, and does spread along this system of sensory pits to other sensory pits as it progresses. seconday infections with bacteria, Heximita spreads to new pits, ect.
If you aren't seeing it function like that, it's not HITH.

If Heximita, I'd still tell you to clean up the tank, get the nitrates and bacteria down, and supplement the diet as a big step one, before going to medications.
Thank you for the response. I did indicate water only when changing but every few months I do sand vac the substrate. I also usually will hover over the substrate sucking it up. High nitrates are always an issue with this tank. I know I need to feed less but I feel like not everything is getting enough food. I will up these water changes. Thanks for the help. To me it didn't seem like HITH but maybe scraped on a rock or piece of wood. Planning on adding more pothos to help keep the nitrates lower.
 
okay, jmo and I've never had that kind of fish, but....

18 months is when an established tank starts to really have stuff build up.

I started using FluVal

Waste Control Biological Aquarium Cleaner​


because even though I vacuum, having a featherfin catfish (messy) and feeding veggies to aquatic animals means matter is decomposing in the tank even if I cannot see it.

'anything that goes into tank stays in tank' if you are not removing it

I'd double up on water changes until the head heals. do 2 x35% water changes in 10 days verses 1 x 70%, or 3x at 20%.... say mall water change Mon, WEDS and SAT... nitrates no longer going Up and DOWN, Up and down... think of how sugar levels hit diabetics... they get open wounds because sugar level impair their living cells, autoimmune compromised ( sorry I have diabetes in family and ppl seem to understand this concept at large)

why?

all living organism want homeostasis - achieve an even keel at living, our bodies fight for this condition and when under too much stress, that's why we get ill. Homeostasis

having nitrates wildy or widely fluctuate operates against that idea of keeping the environment 'even' aka stable


and again jmo - garlic really helps fish. I'd soak the food in garlic. YUMMY! boost the autoimmune system

Best wishes on your fishes recovery!
 
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  • #18
okay, jmo and I've never had that kind of fish, but....

18 months is when an established tank starts to really have stuff build up.

I started using FluVal

Waste Control Biological Aquarium Cleaner​


because even though I vacuum, having a featherfin catfish (messy) and feeding veggies to aquatic animals means matter is decomposing in the tank even if I cannot see it.

'anything that goes into tank stays in tank' if you are not removing it

I'd double up on water changes until the head heals. do 2 x35% water changes in 10 days verses 1 x 70%, or 3x at 20%.... say mall water change Mon, WEDS and SAT... nitrates no longer going Up and DOWN, Up and down... think of how sugar levels hit diabetics... they get open wounds because sugar level impair their living cells, autoimmune compromised ( sorry I have diabetes in family and ppl seem to understand this concept at large)

why?

all living organism want homeostasis - achieve an even keel at living, our bodies fight for this condition and when under too much stress, that's why we get ill. Homeostasis

having nitrates wildy or widely fluctuate operates against that idea of keeping the environment 'even' aka stable


and again jmo - garlic really helps fish. I'd soak the food in garlic. YUMMY! boost the autoimmune system

Best wishes on your fishes recovery!
I just did a 60% water change. It seems to be slightly larger again today. It seems to almost have like a ring around it. How should I use garlic with the food? Something like Garlic guard or just soak the pellets in real garlic? I do have dr basseleers garlic pellets but but they are tiny. I was thinking of quarantining him but every time I do the fish winds up dying. Thanks for the help. I will wait a couple of days and do another smaller water change. I also sand vacced about 1/3 of the tank but it wasn't really dirty like some other tanks I have.
 
I have used garlic guard successfully, easier than using fresh garlic, just squirt a little on the food. Personally I think the water changes are more important than gravel vac, with sand you usually only need to skim the surface anyway. Just to try and reduce the nitrates and keep them low. Something like stress guard might help to protect the wound and allow it to heal. I still think it could possibly be HITH, or perhaps an ulcer? But if he is still eating normally that is a good sign and makes treatment a lot easier.
 
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  • #20
I have used garlic guard successfully, easier than using fresh garlic, just squirt a little on the food. Personally I think the water changes are more important than gravel vac, with sand you usually only need to skim the surface anyway. Just to try and reduce the nitrates and keep them low. Something like stress guard might help to protect the wound and allow it to heal. I still think it could possibly be HITH, or perhaps an ulcer? But if he is still eating normally that is a good sign and makes treatment a lot easier.
Thanks. What about stress coat which I have? He is still eating but does seem to be hiding more but he was never the most outgoing fish. I will try to get some garlic guard.
IMO it does look like HITH.
Really? It has progressed to the size of about a quarter in 5 days. I didn't think HITH progressed that quickly and was more like lots of smaller holes? Thanks for the help. I appreciate any assistance.
 
yeah, i just soaked the food in the garlic juice.

HITH is bacteria infection
ulcer is pretty much the same thing, bacteria taking advantage of a compressed immune system


really good read here:

Skin Ulcers in Freshwater Fish

I agree about water conditions - that's the best cure clean water, wound can heal faster.

do you have a local vet that sees fish? if it's the size of a quarter, you will jmo need meds


chewy lists metronidazole for HITH. If you can buy that in your area, i'd start that.

 
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  • #23
It seems to be about the same size today and is flapping slightly so I think it may be a scab and he injured himself on a rock. Am getting stress guard tomorrow and feeding food soaked in garlic guard along with more frequent water changes. Hopefully I am on the right path.
 
Yes, sounds like more of an injury. Although it looks somewhat like HITH, and this can be related to high nitrates, with a case that severe I would expect it to be acting more ill and not eating.
 
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