PSA: Something I am seeing more and more often, fishless cycling....

[RayClem]

It is certainly possible to do a fishless cycle if you know what you are doing as JeremyW has stated. However, there are too many people who do not know what they are doing.

It seems that many people are using Dr Tims's ammonium chloride to cycle tanks these days. The problem is that ammonium chloride, unlike pure ammonia, is acidic. Thus, if you add too much or too often, the pH will drop below neutral which can slow down the cycle and even cause it to stall if the pH goes too low.

Ammonia is alkaline, so you do not have to worry about the pH dropping. However, it does not take much ammonia to overdose the tank, especially in smaller tanks. Many people test they water and get a test result of 5 ppm without realizing that the level might be far higher than that, but the color chart stops at 5 ppm. A teaspoon (5 ml) of ammonia in a 10 gallon tank is sufficient to raise the ammonia concentration to 40 ppm. I suspect some people subscribe to the "if a little is good, more is better" approach. However, high levels of ammonia are just going to stall the process. We have encountered too many people whose cycles have stalled only to have them complete successfully after doing several water changes to bring the ammonia concentration back to a suitable range.

 

[JTW]

Hopefully you will start a thread sharing your breeding journey with us so we can follow along with you. Please tag me if you do.

I can't commit to keeping a detailed journal or anything. But I can certainly share the highlights of my progress as I go. (Or the lowlights, if I'm wrong about the whole thing)

It is certainly possible to do a fishless cycle if you know what you are doing as JeremyW has stated. However, there are too many people who do not know what they are doing.

It seems that many people are using Dr Tims's ammonium chloride to cycle tanks these days. The problem is that ammonium chloride, unlike pure ammonia, is acidic. Thus, if you add too much or too often, the pH will drop below neutral which can slow down the cycle and even cause it to stall if the pH goes too low.

Ammonia is alkaline, so you do not have to worry about the pH dropping. However, it does not take much ammonia to overdose the tank, especially in smaller tanks. Many people test they water and get a test result of 5 ppm without realizing that the level might be far higher than that, but the color chart stops at 5 ppm. A teaspoon (5 ml) of ammonia in a 10 gallon tank is sufficient to raise the ammonia concentration to 40 ppm. I suspect some people subscribe to the "if a little is good, more is better" approach. However, high levels of ammonia are just going to stall the process. We have encountered too many people whose cycles have stalled only to have them complete successfully after doing several water changes to bring the ammonia concentration back to a suitable range.

And to complicate things further, the test kits we use are designed to have the best accuracy at very low levels. Levels that matter most to fish health. So you can trust that measurements close to 0 are pretty accurate. But the further you get from 0, the less accurate the measurements become. And that's assuming that you can accurately identify the color and match it up with the chart. Which can be a challenge in and of itself.

I don't have much trust in measurements higher than 2ppm ammonia or 1ppm nitrite unless I do a dilution test. And even then, I think there's enough error in the measurement that we only ever get a rough estimate at that point.

This is another reason I like to keep my ammonia dose levels low. So that I can actually see what is happening. If you can't see what is going on, then you end up guessing. And guessing is what gets people so wildly off the charts.

 

[RayClem]

I can't commit to keeping a detailed journal or anything. But I can certainly share the highlights of my progress as I go. (Or the lowlights, if I'm wrong about the whole thing)


And to complicate things further, the test kits we use are designed to have the best accuracy at very low levels. Levels that matter most to fish health. So you can trust that measurements close to 0 are pretty accurate. But the further you get from 0, the less accurate the measurements become. And that's assuming that you can accurately identify the color and match it up with the chart. Which can be a challenge in and of itself.

I don't have much trust in measurements higher than 2ppm ammonia or 1ppm nitrite unless I do a dilution test. And even then, I think there's enough error in the measurement that we only ever get a rough estimate at that point.

This is another reason I like to keep my ammonia dose levels low. So that I can actually see what is happening. If you can't see what is going on, then you end up guessing. And guessing is what gets people so wildly off the charts.

You are correct that the ammonia test is designed to be most accurate at low concentrations. The only way to get accurate measurements of higher levels of ammonia is through dilution.

If you mix one ml of tank water with 4 ml of distilled water or RO water, you will now be able to test the 5 ml sample and 5 ppm of ammonia will now show up as 1 ppm on the color chart. Likewise, a 2 ppm concentration would show up just slightly more yellow than 0.5 ppm on the chart. However, for accurate test results, the dilution has to be done accurately using a syringe or pipette.

I purchased 50- 5 ml disposable transfer pipettes on Amazon for about $6. However, the ones I purchased are currently out of stock. They are great for water testing. I also cut the tips off the bottom of the pipettes and use them for feeding my fish. They are great for both purposes.

 

[mattgirl]

Going to bump this up for those new to doing a fishless cycle and possibly encountering issues before it gets lost in the shuffle

 

[mattgirl]

We had another member just yesterday experiencing a mini-cycle in a tank that showed to be cycled and was processing 2ppm ammonia through to nitrates. Unfortunately I forgot to mention adding a bit of fish food along the way. Had I done so I suspect the mini-cycle would not have happened.

 

[Fisch]

I experimented now, specifically as my QT is empty after the Pandas moved into the big tank. I would like to keep it going, mainly because my egg laying Nerite is cruising around and places little white dots all over the tank walls and rocks, and I have a fully grown bladder and Ramshorn snail in the tank as well. My dilemma is always, how much food put I in there, what is the timing when food deteriorates to the point to create ammonia.

 

[mattgirl]

I experimented now, specifically as my QT is empty after the Pandas moved into the big tank. I would like to keep it going, mainly because my egg laying Nerite is cruising around and places little white dots all over the tank walls and rocks, and I have a fully grown bladder and Ramshorn snail in the tank as well. My dilemma is always, how much food put I in there, what is the timing when food deteriorates to the point to create ammonia.

I have to think as long as you occasionally feed your snails the tank will remain cycled. Eventually some bacteria may die off but not all of it will. Fortunately bacteria multiplies quickly so if there is not quite enough when you add more fish to the QT it should quickly grow enough to handle what will be a slightly higher bio-load than what the snails are providing. Plan ahead and start feeding your snails more than normal each day for a few days before getting fish for the tank. The extra food should get the bacteria busy multiplying and should prevent an ammonia spike once fish are added.

 

[Revan]

Well, I'm late to this thread, but it's very interesting.

I'd have to say that I think a fishless cycle does end up working just fine, I used Dr. Tim's ammonia, and had my tank fully setup with substrate, wood, plants, rocks, heater, filter, light, etc. I'd assume something dealing with this added a natural element that a lot of other tanks miss when doing a fish-in cycle. (I only have one tank, but it cycled fairly quickly with this method)

Opinion part starts here:
Fish-in cycles are a whole lot easier, simpler, and stress-free for me. I just dose up to 2 ppm, then let it drop to 0. I record how long it took to drop and then dose again. This way I can adapt it to my schedule, and I don't have to worry about putting my fish in danger.

However, the idea of adding a tiny bit of fish food to go with the ammonia is appealing to me to better replicate the way nature works. I usually go by the principle that nature does things much better than people can, so I think that my cycle would just be more robust in general with the fish food. I can also get behind the idea of cycling with a snail, like a nerite snail, as they are exceptionally hardy. However, with Dr. Tim's ammonia, I really have a better method to quantify input and compare it with the output. It just gives me a better sense of what goes on, which I feel would really help people who are new to the hobby.

I'd just say, go what method works for you. If you're doing this for the first time, look into all the methods, and see which one you think seems the most appealing, and which one you think you understand better (the cycling process is already a hassle for newcomers, no point in making it more confusing)

I would like to see the results of an experiment though! Would really clear up the way things like this work.

 

[KingOscar]

I am seeing more and more folks having problems when adding fish after fishless cycling their tank. I have thought about this for a while.

Hi mattgirl, thanks for this insightful thread. I just started reading it and have a quick question as I make my way through the 108 posts. Have you noticed these "not fully ready for fish" problems on ammonia cycled tanks that were seeded with BB form an established tank? It seems to me this bacteria would eliminate the "something is missing" wild card. Thanks!

 

[StarGirl]

Well, I'm late to this thread, but it's very interesting.

I'd have to say that I think a fishless cycle does end up working just fine, I used Dr. Tim's ammonia, and had my tank fully setup with substrate, wood, plants, rocks, heater, filter, light, etc. I'd assume something dealing with this added a natural element that a lot of other tanks miss when doing a fish-in cycle. (I only have one tank, but it cycled fairly quickly with this method)

Opinion part starts here:
Fish-in cycles are a whole lot easier, simpler, and stress-free for me. I just dose up to 2 ppm, then let it drop to 0. I record how long it took to drop and then dose again. This way I can adapt it to my schedule, and I don't have to worry about putting my fish in danger.

However, the idea of adding a tiny bit of fish food to go with the ammonia is appealing to me to better replicate the way nature works. I usually go by the principle that nature does things much better than people can, so I think that my cycle would just be more robust in general with the fish food. I can also get behind the idea of cycling with a snail, like a nerite snail, as they are exceptionally hardy. However, with Dr. Tim's ammonia, I really have a better method to quantify input and compare it with the output. It just gives me a better sense of what goes on, which I feel would really help people who are new to the hobby.

I'd just say, go what method works for you. If you're doing this for the first time, look into all the methods, and see which one you think seems the most appealing, and which one you think you understand better (the cycling process is already a hassle for newcomers, no point in making it more confusing)

I would like to see the results of an experiment though! Would really clear up the way things like this work.

Opinion part starts here:
Fish-in cycles are a whole lot easier, simpler, and stress-free for me. I just dose up to 2 ppm, then let it drop to 0. I record how long it took to drop and then dose again. This way I can adapt it to my schedule, and I don't have to worry about putting my fish in danger.

Did you mean fishless is easier?

 

[mattgirl]

Hi mattgirl, thanks for this insightful thread. I just started reading it and have a quick question as I make my way through the 108 posts. Have you noticed these "not fully ready for fish" problems on ammonia cycled tanks that were seeded with BB form an established tank? It seems to me this bacteria would eliminate the "something is missing" wild card. Thanks!

I don't know it for a fact but I don't think we would experience the something missing if we seeded the tank with bacteria from an established tank.

 

[KingOscar]

I don't know it for a fact but I don't think we would experience the something missing if we seeded the tank with bacteria from an established tank.

Thanks. The reason I asked is because I just initiated my first fishless cycle. I've always had at least one established tank up and running, so always did fish-in with seeded media. But this new tank is for cold water fish that are presently in an established tank at 62-65 degrees. My concern about doing my normal fish-in cycle with the new tank was that at that low temp the cycle would take forever, even with seeded media.

I refuse to bump the temps with the fish in just to facilitate the cycle, so here goes my first fishless cycle!

I raised the temp and used Fritz Fishless Fuel Ammonia as the source. In honor of your thread I'll toss a pinch of food in now and then for good measure! But I had the feeling that adding established BB from another tank would take care of the cycle as long as there was an ammonia source. I plan to add a little more BB every few days. I'm following the "Add and wait" method here:

Ammonia Instructions For A Fishless Cycle | Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle Forum | 19627

 

[Revan]

Opinion part starts here:
Fish-in cycles are a whole lot easier, simpler, and stress-free for me. I just dose up to 2 ppm, then let it drop to 0. I record how long it took to drop and then dose again. This way I can adapt it to my schedule, and I don't have to worry about putting my fish in danger.

Did you mean fishless is easier?

Lol my bad, yes I meant fishless over there.

 

[LightBrownPillow]

Interesting thoughts mattgirl. I've only done two fishless cycles, used Dr. Tim's Ammonium Chloride for both. The first was a small saltwater tank with live rock & critters right from the start, the 2nd a small freshwater walstad tank with dirt/plants/critters right from the start. Both completed their cycles in no time at all and never had an issue with ammonia since.

So maybe all that natural stuff helped make the nitrifying bacteria along in some way like you suggest the food bits would do. Something something biological materials, etc. Certainly makes me, as a walstad-method enthusiast, feel better about trying to replicate natural environments vs keeping tanks perfectly clean and almost sterile

 

[mattgirl]

keeping tanks perfectly clean and almost sterile

As I say so often. our fish tanks are the one thing in our home we don't want to keep spotlessly clean. We can keep them looking clean without cleaning all the good gross looking stuff out of them. It is that gross looking stuff that keeps our wet pets healthy.

 

[CindiL]

I’ll be testing this out in a month. I am going to buy a 20g long and plant it. Because this tank will be for a betta sorority of 5 girls I need the plants well established. So I’ll have plants and Dr. Tims ammonia drops and will see how long it takes.

I wonder if the plants offer the same benefit as fish food or a raw shrimp.

 

[RayClem]

I’ll be testing this out in a month. I am going to buy a 20g long and plant it. Because this tank will be for a betta sorority of 5 girls I need the plants well established. So I’ll have plants and Dr. Tim's ammonia drops and will see how long it takes.

I wonder if the plants offer the same benefit as fish food or a raw shrimp.

Fish food is largely made of aquatic animals. Thus, it is high in meat proteins. Some fish foods also contain plaint matter which contributes carbohydrates, fiber and plant proteins. When fish food is consumed by fish, they convert the proteins into urea, which then gets converted by bacteria into ammonia. When you use Dr. Tim's Ammonia, you are adding ammonium chloride to the tank. The beneficial bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrite and then convert nitrite to nitrate, can consume either ammonia or ammonium ion.

The advantage to using a protein source rather than pure ammonia or ammonium chloride for cycling is that you also develop colonies of benefecial bacteria that will break down uneaten food. However, they will develop sooner or later. That is why cycling with ammonia or ammonium ion works.

Typically, if keep adding ammonia/ammonium, it will take 2-3 weeks before you start to see an increase in nitrites and the ammonia dropping to zero overnight. After another 2-3 weeks, the nitrate level should start to increase and nitrites should drop to zero. Once you get ammonia and nitrite tests that show no more than trace levels for a few days in a row, you can consider the tank cycled. Keep adding your ammonium chloride to the tank until you are ready to add fish. After that, the fish food you feed the fish will provide the source of ammonia needed to keep the cycle going.

If you can obtain gravel or filter media from an established tank, it will contain beneficial bacteria that will kick-start the cycle process. Some people purchase bottled bacteria for this purpose, but natural live colonies of bacteria are the better option. If you already have a fish tank, you have access to seeded media. If not, try to get some from a friend or see if the local fish store will give you a cup of gravel from one of their tanks.

 

[mattgirl]

I’ll be testing this out in a month. I am going to buy a 20g long and plant it. Because this tank will be for a betta sorority of 5 girls I need the plants well established. So I’ll have plants and Dr. Tims ammonia drops and will see how long it takes.

I wonder if the plants offer the same benefit as fish food or a raw shrimp.

The plants will add bacteria so will help get this tank cycled. As plants melt as they often do when first added to a tank they may add some of what the fish food would. I don't think adding the fish food along with the liquid ammonia will speed up the cycling process but I think it grows a stronger more natural cycle. The plants may speed up the process though.

Most of the folks I started this thread for aren't quite ready for plants yet. For those the fish food should work well. The fish food isn't adding bacteria like plants will but will feed the bacteria well.

 

[JustAFishServant]

Emerged grown plants like pothos will consume a lot of nitrogen. I have never tried it, but I may do so. My primary tank is on the main living floor where I have two cats, One of them likes nibbling on plants. Pothos is toxic to cats, so I cannot use one for that tank. However, I am in the process of cycling a 40 gallon breeder in the basement. That would be ideal for emerged plants.

I use purple waffle for the same reason as pothos, and it's not toxic to cats.

I've also used basil, mint, strawberries, arrowhead and spider plants, chinese evergreen, monstera, garlic, philodendron, pothos, garlic, dwarf water onion, lotuses and many more.

I grew shallots in my goldfish tank until they rotted and fungus knats infested them. I simply plucked off those larvae and fed them to my betta girl

Also, IMO there's 2 ways of "cycling" a tank; fish-in and using plants.

As explained earlier in this thread, a fish-in cycle uses proteins, ammonia/ammonium and other compounds to cycle your tank, where a fishless cycle wouldn't do this.

The easy (possibly more expensive but better long-term) method is using plants. The Walstad Method doesn't use beneficial bacteria, it's plants that do all the work. If you lightly stock and heavily plant your tank, water changes are minimal. However, you need to use the right kinds of plants and a LOT of them. Aquatic plants for ammonia, nitrites etc, floating or riparium plants for nitrates. Water flow (or rather, surface agitation) adds CO2.

I prefer the Walstad Method because, as long as you use good soil, fertilizing isn't needed for up to 2 yrs. After that I add Aquarium Co-Op's Easy Green. I've gone a year without a water change in a 75 gal heavily-planted tank with 1 female betta. Walstad tanks use water changes for topping off without a lid as well as adding micro/macro/trace nutrients (at least calcium supplements for livebearers and especially breeding tanks)

 

[RayClem]

I use purple waffle for the same reason as pothos, and it's not toxic to cats.

I've also used basil, mint, strawberries, arrowhead and spider plants, chinese evergreen, monstera, garlic, philodendron, pothos, garlic, dwarf water onion, lotuses and many more.

I grew shallots in my goldfish tank until they rotted and fungus knats infested them. I simply plucked off those larvae and fed them to my betta girl

Also, IMO there's 2 ways of "cycling" a tank; fish-in and using plants.

As explained earlier in this thread, a fish-in cycle uses proteins, ammonia/ammonium and other compounds to cycle your tank, where a fishless cycle wouldn't do this.

The easy (possibly more expensive but better long-term) method is using plants. The Walstad Method doesn't use beneficial bacteria, it's plants that do all the work. If you lightly stock and heavily plant your tank, water changes are minimal. However, you need to use the right kinds of plants and a LOT of them. Aquatic plants for ammonia, nitrites etc, floating or riparium plants for nitrates. Water flow (or rather, surface agitation) adds CO2.

I prefer the Walstad Method because, as long as you use good soil, fertilizing isn't needed for up to 2 yrs. After that I add Aquarium Co-Op's Easy Green. I've gone a year without a water change in a 75 gal heavily-planted tank with 1 female betta. Walstad tanks use water changes for topping off without a lid as well as adding micro/macro/trace nutrients (at least calcium supplements for livebearers and especially breeding tanks)

When you add soil to a tank, you are adding a plethora of beneficial bacteria. Plants will consume ammonia, but the bacteria in the soil are also part of the biological filter. Without bacteria in soil, live on earth would not exist.

 

[JustAFishServant]

When you add soil to a tank, you are adding a plethora of beneficial bacteria. Plants will consume ammonia, but the bacteria in the soil are also part of the biological filter. Without bacteria in soil, live on earth would not exist.

Obviously, but it's the plants that do most of the work. Read 'Ecology of the Planted Aquarium' by Diana Walstad for more info.

Edit: just realized that might've sounded rude, didn't mean that at all! Bacteria is everywhere - in media, substrate, even on your fish's slime coat! But with a Walstad tank, bacteria isn't your main focus as the plants are using most of the nutrients anyway.

 

[Dedife]

Very interesting thread/read! Thank you all who explained the chemistry behind this.

When I set up my 36 gallon 3 years ago, I used TSS+ and the Ace hardware pure ammonia. It took about 4 weeks to cycle, and I did have a nitrite phase even with using the TSS. It was processing 2ppm ammonia through to nitrates when I added 6 zebra danios. The next day ammonia went up to 1. Resolved with a water change and no further spikes.

Last week I set up a 5 gallon for a betta using biomax I had seeded in my 36 gallon. I added the Ace ammonia to see how cycled it would be, and it’s processing about 0.5 ppm a day. I’m adding the ace ammonia up to 1ppm to continue to feed it while I’m waiting for a couple additional parts to arrive. Yesterday after reading this I added some frozen brine shrimp cubes (wrapped in cheese cloth to minimize mess!) and an IAL. It will be interesting to see if there is any ammonia spike after adding the betta.

I have also added fertilizers. Would the urea in the Seachem Nitrogen help feed the bacteria?

 

[mattgirl]

I have also added fertilizers. Would the urea in the Seachem Nitrogen help feed the bacteria?

I honestly don't know the answer to this question.

Please let me know how adding the shrimp works for you.

 

[RayClem]

I have also added fertilizers. Would the urea in the Seachem Nitrogen help feed the bacteria?

Seachem Nitrogen contains urea, but it also contains sodium nitrate. The urea has to be broken down into ammonia by either plants or bacteria before it can be utilized by the nitrifying bacteria. You could accomplish the same thing adding some fish food or a piece of fish or shrimp.

The problem with using Seachem Nitrogen is that you will start to see nitrate reading immediately. This, may lead you to think that the cycle is nearing completion when it isn't. Thus, I cannot recommend Seachem Nitrogen to start the cycle. However, it is a good fertilizer for plants if your tank is does not provide enough nitrogen for your plants.

 

[mattgirl]

Bumping this up from the depths of the forum for those that may find it helpful.

 

[Fisch]

Mattgirl is pretty silent thes days....moving this thread up as I see cycling questions.

 

[mattgirl]

Stopped in for a few minutes. Thought I would bump this up for those new to cycling or those that are experiencing issues.

 

[ProudPapa]

Stopped in for a few minutes. Thought I would bump this up for those new to cycling or those that are experiencing issues.

I hope you stay a while.

 

[86 ssinit]

Yes you’ve been missed! Great cycling thread running now. Hope all is well .

 

[espresso]

Man, such an interesting thread. Thanks everyone on this. I actually did fishless cycle with lots of plants, pure ammonia, nitrifying bottle to kickstart yet I experienced a mini-cycle after the cycling process. Unfortunately I lost the first fish that I added. Tried to help out an unwanted weak betta from a LFS but the mini-cycle didn't help. Anyways, want to set up everything better this time. My tank is currently processed 3ppm of ammonia over 24hrs, nitrite is still taking 48hrs to go down to 0 (previously both ammo and nitrite take 24hrs to get to 0). I'm waiting for nitrite eating bacteria to catch up then testing the final doses. Then after all of that I'm gonna add fish food to see how/how long the tank treats them (in my head it will be another 2 weeks at least). After that, adding fish, will update to this topic to see how the fish does.

 

[Kapoosta]

Soo.. I don't know if this was complete coincidence.. I started my fishless cycle just over 1 week ago and nothing was happening with my ammonia or nitrite level. I used bacteria in a bottle so was hoping it would help accelerate the process but nothing seemed to be happening.

I started adding fish flake over the past few days and my nitrites just spiked up today and my nitrates started rising too.

My water quality report from my city shows very little phosphate so I was thinking maybe the low phosphate level was the reason for nothing happening. So I started adding the fish flake and randomly read this thread a day later with others recommending the fish flake.

 

[ruud]

If you have any reusable drinking bottles, just soak them in your tank. The bacteria on this bottle probably has more effect than 'bacteria-in-a-(airtight-)bottle' bacteria.

 

[drat]

If you were not putting flakes, or something else, in your tank to create ammonia, you would never see nitrites. If you had been adding something, the only thing I might expect to see in a week would be ammonia. It takes time for the cycle to advance from converting ammonia to nitrite, then nitrite to nitrate. Generally it will take 4 to weeks unless you use already cycled media or substrate.

Soo.. I don't know if this was complete coincidence.. I started my fishless cycle just over 1 week ago and nothing was happening with my ammonia or nitrite level. I used bacteria in a bottle so was hoping it would help accelerate the process but nothing seemed to be happening.

I started adding fish flake over the past few days and my nitrites just spiked up today and my nitrates started rising too.

 

[Azedenkae]

This is very interesting. Coming at it from a purely scientific stand point though, it doesn’t quite make sense to me. Granted I am no biochemist, but I am majoring in bio with a minor in chem, so I have some background. I guess my issue lies in this idea that the pure ammonia isn’t growing the correct bacteria. You would have to differentiate the compound in pure ammonia from what is produced by fish in some way. What is difference in the ammonia produced by fish food and fish poo compared to bottled ammonia. I am not aware of any differences in the compound, but again, I could be wrong about that. But here’s why I think I may not be:

Straight ammonia is Nh3, we all know that. But in water, it will form ammonium, nh4. I believe that technically also happens at an equilibrium, so it’s a bit of both are present.

Dr. Tim’s ammonia is ammonia chloride: Nh4Cl. Which in water, just becomes Nh4, the Cl essentialy breaks off. Leaving us with the same compound: nh4. But again, that nh4 is in equilibrium with water, leaving both nh4 and nh3 present.

so unless there is a difference compound, besides nh3, produced by fish, there can’t be any difference on a chemical level.

subsequently, that would imply that there are differences in nitrifying bacteria that can exist within the tank. While it’s absolutely true that there are different nitrifying bacteria, they all carry out the same general process: ammonia to nitrite, nitrite to nitrate.

I think this phenomenon is likely due to other factors, rather then the “type” of bacteria we are accumulating in our tanks. Concentration of the bacteria that accumulates, time before adding fish (die off), and initial bio load seem like more likely explications to me.

this is all just coming from what I understand on the nitrogen cycle on a chemical level. If someone has a better understanding of what may be going on I would love to hear it. This kidna nitty gritty stuff is really interesting to me.

You are correct.

I am a microbiologist. The problem isn't the 'type' of ammonia. I have certainly used ammonium chloride and no fish food, and have established robust populations of nitrifiers using all manners of different sources of the microorganisms. From bottled bacteria products to more 'natural' means. Seeding from existing aquariums too. If it is an issue with the type of nitrifiers, I think I'd have seen it at least once.

Fish food may sometimes help, not because it provides a carbon source for nitrifiers - which are autotrophic, strictly so in fact apparently, which means they literally cannot use organic substrates as a carbon source. But rather, fish food could potentially provide other resources that may be utilized by nitrifiers. However, tap water at least for me had never failed to provide enough of what nitrifiers need.

Rather, fish food may give the illusion that it speeds up the cycle, by feeding non-nitrifying heterotrophs. The thing is, ammonia can be consumed not just as an energy source (i.e. via nitrification), but also as a nitrogen source. So when these heterotrophs grow and reproduce, they consume said ammonia, except not producing nitrite (and/or nitrate in the case of comammox) in the process.

 

[Kapoosta]

If you were not putting flakes, or something else, in your tank to create ammonia, you would never see nitrites. If you had been adding something, the only thing I might expect to see in a week would be ammonia. It takes time for the cycle to advance from converting ammonia to nitrite, then nitrite to nitrate. Generally it will take 4 to weeks unless you use already cycled media or substrate.

Sorry, I meant to add that I dosed with ammonium chloride to 4ppm and nothing was happening until the flakes were added.

 

[drat]

Sorry, I meant to add that I dosed with ammonium chloride to 4ppm

LOL, now your post makes more sense. My guess is the bacteria in a bottle did nothing, and your cycle is progressing on a normal schedule. I think the flakes were just coincidence. The cycle takes time, and I don't think it is at all surprising that you hadn't seen nitrites in just over a week. Patience is a virtue. In this hobby it is a necessity! Good news is it is working, and in 3 to 5 weeks (maybe sooner or later) your tank will be cycled.

 

[RayClem]

Sorry, I meant to add that I dosed with ammonium chloride to 4ppm and nothing was happening until the flakes were added.

It might be that you would have seen the same thing happen without adding the flakes, but I much prefer adding fish food than ammonia or ammonium chloride. It generally takes 2-3 weeks for the bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrite to develop and then another 2-3 weeks for the bacteria that convert nitrite to nitrate to develop. You won't see much of anthing happen in the first 7-10 days. The only way you will significantly speed up the cycle is to use seeded media from an established tank. That media will have the type of bacteria your tank needs. While the bottled bacteria might help, the strains of bacteria in the bottle might not be the strains that you need for your water conditions.

 

[lazylathe]

I have never cycled a tank with ammonia or really heard a lot about it.
You read about it every now and then but it's not too common where I have been.

My first tank, over 40 years ago, I was told to cycle it by using a pinch of dry flakes to the tank every second day.
Wait patiently and do not bother testing the first week.
At the start of the second week, test for ammonia and wait for it's spike to return to zero.
Keep adding that pinch of flakes every second day!
Once the ammonia spike is low, start testing for Nitrites. They will spike and drop and once zero, you can start adding fish slowly. Only a few at a time to allow the filter bacteria's population to grow.

I have never had a problem cycling tanks this way.

This 125G was done this way a year ago and is going strong!!

 

[Fishfur]

I am seeing more and more folks having problems when adding fish after fishless cycling their tank. I have thought about this for a while.

I am beginning to think something is missing when we cycle our tanks with only liquid ammonia. I am beginning to think the bacteria we grow isn't exactly the same bacteria needed to process the ammonia formed when we add fish and start feeding them. We start seeing an ammonia and/or nitrite spike in what we thought was a fully cycled tank. The ammonia we add goes down to 0 within 24 hours, we have gone through the nitrite spike and are seeing nitrates. Our numbers are 0, 0, and some nitrates so our cycle should be done and ready for fish. When the ammonia and/or nitrites spike after adding fish we are now doing a fish in cycle in what should have been a cycled tank.

There is certainly a very fundamental difference between fish-in and fishless cycles. In a fishless cycle, the ammonia is added all at once. In a fish-in cycle it’s being added constantly in trickles rather than a big dose at one time. I often wonder what effect, if any, that has on the nitrifiers.

Given the ratio of NH3 to NH4 in water, where the pH is less than 8 and the ammonia isn’t dosed too high, the chance there’d be enough NH3 to harm fish is quite small because most of it is NH4 and you need a minimum of .6 ppm of NH3 before fish are going to be harmed.

With nitrite there isn’t a useful ratio to refer to but if it gets to .75 ppm, that’s going to stress fish. By the time it has reached 5 ppm, it’s very toxic and fish will be suffering from methaemoglobinaemia but if it’s kept below .5 ppm, fish won’t suffer any harm.

So fish-in cycling that’s properly monitored so that the NH3 is never as high as .6 and nitrite isn’t higher than .5 is not a danger to fish.

I think the primary advantage to a fishless cycle is that no fish will suffer if mistakes are made and you don’t have to forget to test or do many water changes in a fish-in cycle before your fish are going to suffer some harm.

The nitrogen cycle was not known when I started fish keeping and when I got back into it after a long absence while working too hard with long absences from home, I learned about this nitrogen cycle thing and was sure it was a miracle that any of my fish from times before had survived. I was also convinced that fish-in cycling was a bad idea because it might harm the fish.

The more I learn the more I change my opinions and hopefully that won’t change.

I do know that there are some other species of nitrifiers aside from those in the bottles of nitrifiers that are useful in the cycle so if nothing else, doing a fish-in cycle allows time for these species to grow as well as the ones we think are most important.

 

[RayClem]

Having kept fish for over 6 decades, I have never attempted to cycle with ammonia or ammonium chloride. This method can certainly promote the development of some strains of nitrifying bacteria. However, fish do not excrete ammonia or ammonium chloride. They excrete urea and other nitrogen containing compounds that have to be converted to ammonia before the nitrifying bacteria can start to do their job. That is why I always cycle a tank using fish food, even if I am starting with seeded media. That insures that the tank is developing a full complement of microorganisms that will be needed. As soon as there are sufficient nitrifying bacteria to produce nitrites and some nitrates, I will add a few hardy fish to the tank to continue development of numerous strains of bacteria and other microorganisms. Only after the tank has stabilized do I add other fish.

 

[ruud]

Freshwater fish hailing from soft waters (most fish species in the hobby) excrete ammonia via the gills. Mostly passively. In soft water the ammonia converts to a shape that is no longer able to pass the gills.

I know of a few hard water species, or at least that have been documented, to rely more on urea excretion, like salt water fish. It is one of the mechanisms to deal with the toxic form of ammonia in high pH.

Hence, fishkeeping was perfectly possible before we created the concept of cycling (apart from what it is).

 

[fishywoo]

I am seeing more and more folks having problems when adding fish after fishless cycling their tank. I have thought about this for a while.

I am beginning to think something is missing when we cycle our tanks with only liquid ammonia. I am beginning to think the bacteria we grow isn't exactly the same bacteria needed to process the ammonia formed when we add fish and start feeding them. We start seeing an ammonia and/or nitrite spike in what we thought was a fully cycled tank. The ammonia we add goes down to 0 within 24 hours, we have gone through the nitrite spike and are seeing nitrates. Our numbers are 0, 0, and some nitrates so our cycle should be done and ready for fish. When the ammonia and/or nitrites spike after adding fish we are now doing a fish in cycle in what should have been a cycled tank.

I have often thought and have occasionally mentioned, I think we get a stronger more natural cycle when doing a fish in cycle. I have to think the reason for that is because we are growing the right bacteria. I think the bacteria in our tanks needs what fish and fish food provides. We can still do a fishless cycle but we need to give the bacteria what it will get once we put fish in the tank. We can still use liquid ammonia so we can somewhat control the amount of ammonia but it seems the bacteria needs more than liquid ammonia provides. The proof in that is the number of folks coming here for help when this happens.

I suggest, along with the liquid ammonia, we also add a small pinch of fish food daily. It isn't going to take much so there shouldn't be a big mess to clean up once the cycle is done. I will suggest using ground up flakes instead of some kind of pellets. Pellets seem to just fungus over instead of quickly dissolving. The flakes are going to dissolve/decompose so once the cycle is done there should be very little left in the tank.

I truly do think we will get a more natural cycle by adding fish food. If the bacteria has been grown with the right food there should not be an ammonia spike once fish are put in the tank.

As always just my humble opinion. I welcome all thoughts on this.

Sounds right to me! Good point on the type of food too. You just gave purpose to flake food.

 

[KadenSlone04]

Fishless cycle to me is just protecting the investment in the fish. I do fishless cycling with leaves, cones and seedpods. No artificial ammonia, no fishfood. Just dead plant matter. Works, never had problems afterwards. *shrug*

I confirm that I have been gradually adding leaves to my bedroom tank since last fall and I haven't had to water change since October.