PSA: Something I am seeing more and more often, fishless cycling....

[mattgirl]

I have been keeping fish for the past 60 years including both freshwater and saltwater aquaria. I have never cycled a tank with ammonia and I would never consider doing so. Yes, feeding ammonia to the tank will allow the growth of nitrifying bacteria that will convert ammonia to nitrite and then allow growth of the bacteria that convert nitrite to nitrate. However, you are starting in the middle of the cycle, not at the beginning. In an aquarium, the nitrogen cycle does not begin with ammonia. It begins with proteins that are formed from amino acids. These amino acids are organic compounds that contain both hydroxyl (COOH) and amine (NH2) groups. It is these amine groups that are the source of nitrogen in the aquarium. When protein is consumed by our fish, the amino acids are metabolized and converted to ammonium ion in the liver of the fish. The ammonium ion is converted to urea in both the liver and kidneys of the fish. The urea is excreted as part of the waste products.

Urea is converted to ammonia by an enzyme contained in bacteria and plants. Thus, our aquaria needs a healthy colony of the bacteria responsible for breaking down the urea. When you start the nitrogen cycle with ammonia, you are limiting the growth of these very important bacteria. Live plants also consume urea. That is why many fertilizers contain urea as part of the available nitrogen.

Once the urea has been converted to ammonia, then the nitrifying bacteria take over and convert the ammonia to nitrite and then to nitrates.

Remember, though that when you talk about the nitrogen cycle, what goes around has to come around. The next step in the nitrogen cycle is the conversion of nitrates to nitrogen gas by anaerobic bacteria called denitrifying bacteria. Some biological media are specifically designed to foster the growth of anerobic bacteria deep within the structure of the media. In a saltwater aquarium, a deep sand bed or live rock provide such structures. In a freshwater aquarium, filter media like Seachem De-nitrate and Matrix are designed to do this. In nature this process also occurs in swamps and stagnant ponds.

The cycle continues in nature with legumes that absorb nitrogen from the air and with the help of nitrogen-fixing bacteria in root nodules are able to convert atmospheric nitrogen into amino acids/proteins thus bringing us back to the very beginning of the cycle.

Thus, in order for a tank to be considered fully cycled, you need to start with either protein or urea, not ammonia. Some people start with a small piece of frozen fish or shrimp to provide protein. Some people add urine to the tank to provide urea (yes, it will work). I take the less messy route and start by adding a pinch of high protein fish food to the tank each day. Because the food is broken down slowly by bacteria, you do not need to worry about dosing levels unless you dump way too much food into the tank.

Thank you for this very detailed explanation of what is happening. This does explain quite nicely what I have been thinking and trying to understand. It does explain why once fish and the food they eat is added it often causes at least a mini cycle in a tank that was showing 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and some nitrates after a long drawn out cycling process. Or if a cycle seems stalled, adding fish food gets it going in the right direction.

I do realize what most of us have isn't a full cycle since most of us never manage to grow the bacteria that removes the nitrates. I never get into that part of it since I've not accomplished it myself so it is above my knowledge level.

Like you I have never cycled a tank with ammonia but since so many folks do I have tried to learn all I can about doing so. I just felt something was missing in the process.

 

[RayClem]

Thank you for this very detailed explanation of what is happening. This does explain quite nicely what I have been thinking and trying to understand. It does explain why once fish and the food they eat is added it often causes at least a mini cycle in a tank that was showing 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and some nitrates after a long drawn out cycling process. Or if a cycle seems stalled, adding fish food gets it going in the right direction.

I do realize what most of us have isn't a full cycle since most of us never manage to grow the bacteria that removes the nitrates. I never get into that part of it since I've not accomplished it myself so it is above my knowledge level.

Like you I have never cycled a tank with ammonia but since so many folks do I have tried to learn all I can about doing so. I just felt something was missing in the process.

In saltwater tanks, doing water changes gets quite expensive due to the cost of marine salt. Thus, most folks in that segment of the hobby strive to get some nitrate removal through anaerobic denitrification using live rock.

Since water changes are not quite so expensive in fresh water aquariums, most of us do not worry about that part of the cycle and just do water changes to keep the nitrates under control. However, once you dump the used water into the sink, it goes to the sewage treatment plant where anaerobic bacteria gladly perform that portion of the cycle.

 

[mattgirl]

However, once you dump the used water into the sink, it goes to the sewage treatment plant where anaerobic bacteria gladly perform that portion of the cycle.

Unless like me you use it to water plants. In my case my plants get to enjoy all the goodness I've pulled from my tanks.

 

[RayClem]

Unless like me you use it to water plants. In my case my plants get to enjoy all the goodness I've pulled from my tanks.

That is a great way to recycle. In your case there may be anerobic bacteria in the soil or the plants might be consuming the urea and nitrates directly.

 

[Pfrozen]

I went out of my way to colonize denitrifying bacteria in my tank so for me the water changes are only for other dissolved solids that might be building up so far I'm finding it much easier to maintain with a big pothos rooted in my water to help out

 

[RayClem]

I went out of my way to colonize denitrifying bacteria in my tank so for me the water changes are only for other dissolved solids that might be building up so far I'm finding it much easier to maintain with a big pothos rooted in my water to help out

Emerged grown plants like pothos will consume a lot of nitrogen. I have never tried it, but I may do so. My primary tank is on the main living floor where I have two cats, One of them likes nibbling on plants. Pothos is toxic to cats, so I cannot use one for that tank. However, I am in the process of cycling a 40 gallon breeder in the basement. That would be ideal for emerged plants.

 

[mattgirl]

Emerged grown plants like pothos will consume a lot of nitrogen. I have never tried it, but I may do so. My primary tank is on the main living floor where I have two cats, One of them likes nibbling on plants. Pothos is toxic to cats, so I cannot use one for that tank. However, I am in the process of cycling a 40 gallon breeder in the basement. That would be ideal for emerged plants.

You may want to consider Chinese Evergreen instead of Pothos. We've not heard from him in a while but @oldsalt was a huge proponent of CE. The only tank I grow pothos in isn't actually a tank but is instead a 2.5 gallon jar that my ramshorn snails live in. It does a very good job in this jar. I don't have them in my tanks simply because I am not fond of the way the roots look in my tanks.

The only product I recommend for removing nitrates is Nitra-Zorb. I can confidently recommend it simply because it worked so well for me. I've tried other products that did nothing more than lower my bank account. If we can lower them with emerged plants that would be even better. In my humble opinion, natural ways of doing things are a much better option.

 

[RayClem]

You may want to consider Chinese Evergreen instead of Pothos. We've not heard from him in a while but @oldsalt was a huge proponent of CE. The only tank I grow pothos in isn't actually a tank but is instead a 2.5 gallon jar that my ramshorn snails live in. It does a very good job in this jar. I don't have them in my tanks simply because I am not fond of the way the roots look in my tanks.

The only product I recommend for removing nitrates is Nitra-Zorb. I can confidently recommend it simply because it worked so well for me. I've tried other products that did nothing more than lower my bank account. If we can lower them with emerged plants that would be even better. In my humble opinion, natural ways of doing things are a much better option.

Agreed. Natural processes are better.

There is nothing more natural than anaerobic bacteria living within the deep pores of biomedia converting nitrates to nitrogen gas.

Nitra Zorb may work, but it is an ion exchange resin designed to remove ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate from the water. While it may work well in a fish only tank, in a planted tank, it may be removing the nitrogen compounds the plants need to thrive.

 

[Pfrozen]

Good point about planted tanks. And I actually didn't know that pothos was toxic until yesterday lol.

I'll look into Chinese Evergreen, thanks for the tip. I've never heard of it but sounds like something I'd want lol. I have a spider plant that I'll be growing above my tank soon too

 

[RayClem]

Good point about planted tanks. And I actually didn't know that pothos was toxic until yesterday lol.

I'll look into Chinese Evergreen, thanks for the tip. I've never heard of it but sounds like something I'd want lol. I have a spider plant that I'll be growing above my tank soon too

I was not familiar with Chinese Evergreen, but it seems that it contains oxalates which are toxic to dogs and cats.

The spider plant is considered to be safe. However, it does contain some compounds that are similar to those in catnip that cats find mildly hallucinogenic. Thus, cats love to nibble on spider plants. While it won't hurt the directly, it might upset their digestion.

 

[mattgirl]

Agreed. Natural processes are better.

There is nothing more natural than anaerobic bacteria living within the deep pores of biomedia converting nitrates to nitrogen gas.

Nitra Zorb may work, but it is an ion exchange resin designed to remove ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate from the water. While it may work well in a fish only tank, in a planted tank, it may be removing the nitrogen compounds the plants need to thrive.

The best use for nitra-zorb is actually for folks that have high nitrates in their source water. That is when I most often recommend using it. Using it in the water used for water changes will remove them before the water goes in the tank. Since I've never managed to grow the bacteria the remove nitrates I just keep them down with water changes.

Before I switched to live plants water changes alone weren't getting them as low as I wanted them to be in my heavily stocked tank. That is when I started trying to find a product to help me out. I was pleasantly surprised to find this product did what it said it would do. Now that I have live plants in my tanks it is no longer needed but I keep it on hand just in case.

I was not familiar with Chinese Evergreen, but it seems that it contains oxalates which are toxic to dogs and cats.

The spider plant is considered to be safe. However, it does contain some compounds that are similar to those in catnip that cats find mildly hallucinogenic. Thus, cats love to nibble on spider plants. While it won't hurt the directly, it might upset their digestion.

I guess I've just been fortunate since I've never had a pet that nibbled on any of my house plants. I've never had a house cat though.

 

[mattgirl]

Bumping this thread up for those that might find it useful

 

[Dunk2]

I realize every tank is different, but for whatever it’s worth I’ve cycled two tanks with pure ammonia without any problems.

In both cases, I tested the water parameters often (daily) after stocking for a couple weeks. All was good.

 

[mattgirl]

I realize every tank is different, but for whatever it’s worth I’ve cycled two tanks with pure ammonia without any problems.

In both cases, I tested the water parameters often (daily) after stocking for a couple weeks. All was good.

You were one of the fortunate ones. I am sure there are lots of folks that have no problem after cycling with liquid ammonia. I seems there are enough others that do have problems to cause me to wonder if something might be missing.

 

[Dunk2]

As we all know, there are a bunch of different variables that can cause a cycle to go south. We’ll all have our own opinions about this, I’m just not convinced that cycling with pure ammonia is one of them.

In my case, I wouldn’t cycle a tank any other way at this point. And I’ve done both.

 

[mattgirl]

As we all know, there are a bunch of different variables that can cause a cycle to go south. We’ll all have our own opinions about this, I’m just not convinced that cycling with pure ammonia is one of them.

In my case, I wouldn’t cycle a tank any other way at this point. And I’ve done both.

I agree. In your case you can simply pull media from one tank to cycle another one. You already have well fed bacteria.

Most of this is for those that are just getting into the hobby and struggling to get their tanks cycled and eventually firmly established. I am wondering if you read this whole thread or just the OP.

 

[Fisch]

The best use for nitra-zorb is actually for folks that have high nitrates in their source water. That is when I most often recommend using it. Using it in the water used for water changes will remove them before the water goes in the tank. Since I've never managed to grow the bacteria the remove nitrates I just keep them down with water changes.

Before I switched to live plants water changes alone weren't getting them as low as I wanted them to be in my heavily stocked tank. That is when I started trying to find a product to help me out. I was pleasantly surprised to find this product did what it said it would do. Now that I have live plants in my tanks it is no longer needed but I keep it on hand just in case.

I guess I've just been fortunate since I've never had a pet that nibbled on any of my house plants. I've never had a house cat though.

Interesting, thanks for bumping. Originally I had low Nitrates in tap and tanks, but only because I used the test kit incorrectly.
Never tested afterwards until two weeks ago and source water has 20ppm Nitrates, which does not give me a lot of options.
Was thinking about RO water, and will now check Nitra-zorb. Thank you!!!

 

[mattgirl]

Interesting, thanks for bumping. Originally I had low Nitrates in tap and tanks, but only because I used the test kit incorrectly.
Never tested afterwards until two weeks ago and source water has 20ppm Nitrates, which does not give me a lot of options.
Was thinking about RO water, and will now check Nitra-zorb. Thank you!!!

In a case like this I suggest setting up a container big enough to hold enough to do your water changes. Run a HOB filter with nothing but in it but nitra-zorb. I've not had the need to do this since I have no nitrates in my source water so I don't know how long it will take to pull all the nitrates out of it. Doing this should be easier than setting up a RO unit.

 

[Fisch]

Thanks. I have my water change buckets and could do that. Don't have a Filter beside my sponges and the main canister. Wonder if I just use the sponge cage and it may so the same. I agree, won't want to start with RO or mixing water, the consistency is most likely hard to achieve.
LFS suggested today to leave tap water sit for a couple of hours and see if there is a change. I live in a big city, there is no farmer around spraying fields, so I will have to check a bit more in detail.

 

[mattgirl]

Thanks. I have my water change buckets and could do that. Don't have a Filter beside my sponges and the main canister. Wonder if I just use the sponge cage and it may so the same. I agree, won't want to start with RO or mixing water, the consistency is most likely hard to achieve.
LFS suggested today to leave tap water sit for a couple of hours and see if there is a change. I live in a big city, there is no farmer around spraying fields, so I will have to check a bit more in detail.

I can't imagine the nitrates gassing off but it is worth a try. Same goes for the way you are thinking about using the nitra-zorb. You aren't going to know until you try. I have been in the hobby so long and through the years have built up a few extra HOB filters that weren't up to par for my tanks but would work perfectly for something like this. I know not everyone happens to have an extra laying around though.

 

[Dunk2]

I agree. In your case you can simply pull media from one tank to cycle another one. You already have well fed bacteria.

Most of this is for those that are just getting into the hobby and struggling to get their tanks cycled and eventually firmly established. I am wondering if you read this whole thread or just the OP.

I had read the whole thread and my post was also directed to those who are just getting into the hobby.

Although I’m not at all opposed to fish-in cycling (even for beginners), I think that a fishless cycle using pure ammonia is an effective alternative that eliminates the cycling risk to fish, especially for beginners who are often not familiar with the cycling process, the need for water changes, etc.

I’m not saying that every fishless cycle using pure ammonia is going to be successful or without problems. There are likely at least as many failures with fishless cycles as there are with fish-in cycles.

But as I said in my previous post, I’m just not convinced that the ammonia source is the root cause of the failures.

 

[Fisch]

I can't imagine the nitrates gassing off but it is worth a try. Same goes for the way you are thinking about using the nitra-zorb. You aren't going to know until you try. I have been in the hobby so long and through the years have built up a few extra HOB filters that weren't up to par for my tanks but would work perfectly for something like this. I know not everyone happens to have an extra laying around though.

I guess I can find an HOB on classifieds for this purpose, I love to experiment though my husband will roll his eyes

 

[Aprilbeingbasic]

hey whilst your advice is good your facts are slightly off. The species of bacteria are the same and adding pure ammonia will grow the correct bacteria, RayClem above explained it very well. Ill add my 2 cents as a microbiologist,

unlike humans, bacteria have very simple genetics. They hold onto what they need and only utilise genes when their environment calls for it. Given enough generations they might even get rid of adaptions they dont use in the environment they are in. So when cycling with pure ammonia we are growing the correct bacteria, but we are heavily adapting them for one part of their energy cycle, converting pure ammonia to nitrite. We're making their life real easy. When fish are added the break down and release of ammonia is messy and wont be perfectly timed so the bacteria now need to turn back on different genes, mostly to have slower more stable growth, as they dont just have a food source readily available. You probably will have a certain amount die off once fish are added. I imagine this is what causes the ups and down of adding fish after a fishless cycle.

I would say whilst cycling with ammonia isnt growing the wrong bacteria, it also isnt growing the diversity of other bacteria, that do other jobs in the tank, that you need to process all the kinds of waste you will have once adding fish.

So I think your idea is good. if you have ammonia add it, but also adding fish food help put other wastes and proteins into the tanks too.

 

[mattgirl]

I had read the whole thread and my post was also directed to those who are just getting into the hobby.

Although I’m not at all opposed to fish-in cycling (even for beginners), I think that a fishless cycle using pure ammonia is an effective alternative that eliminates the cycling risk to fish, especially for beginners who are often not familiar with the cycling process, the need for water changes, etc.

I’m not saying that every fishless cycle using pure ammonia is going to be successful or without problems. There are likely at least as many failures with fishless cycles as there are with fish-in cycles.

But as I said in my previous post, I’m just not convinced that the ammonia source is the root cause of the failures.

Thank you for adding your thoughts to this thread. The more we share the more all of us will learn. I would feel better if folks would read about and understand the importance of the nitrogen cycle before getting fish but until they get into the hobby many of them have no idea it is important. Those are the folks that come to us for help when things aren't going well.

hey whilst your advice is good your facts are slightly off. The species of bacteria are the same and adding pure ammonia will grow the correct bacteria, RayClem above explained it very well. Ill add my 2 cents as a microbiologist,

unlike humans, bacteria have very simple genetics. They hold onto what they need and only utilise genes when their environment calls for it. Given enough generations they might even get rid of adaptions they dont use in the environment they are in. So when cycling with pure ammonia we are growing the correct bacteria, but we are heavily adapting them for one part of their energy cycle, converting pure ammonia to nitrite. We're making their life real easy. When fish are added the break down and release of ammonia is messy and wont be perfectly timed so the bacteria now need to turn back on different genes, mostly to have slower more stable growth, as they dont just have a food source readily available. You probably will have a certain amount die off once fish are added. I imagine this is what causes the ups and down of adding fish after a fishless cycle.

I would say whilst cycling with ammonia isnt growing the wrong bacteria, it also isnt growing the diversity of other bacteria, that do other jobs in the tank, that you need to process all the kinds of waste you will have once adding fish.

So I think your idea is good. if you have ammonia add it, but also adding fish food help put other wastes and proteins into the tanks too.

Thank you for this. Maybe calling it the wrong bacteria wasn't the right word. Diversity is a better word. I just felt like something was missing when just using bottle ammonia. I have actually learned a lot since posting this thread. Some of what I have learned has actually explained why what I've been seeing is happening and has kinda backed up my thoughts.

 

[luluvontepes]

i have always cycled with fish and recently live plants (lose a few plants but greatly helps with water stability). i dont use alot of chemicals (prime and occasional plant fertilizer). i watch water closely, do frequent water changes in beginning, and once i get my first ammonia spike and do a water change, i only need to watch nitrates. maybe ive been lucky, but it seems to work for me. i also use additives like tetra bio start in the VERY beginning. i do not use charcoal in my tanks, and ive added alot of bio material in the hob filters, so maybe thats why ive been lucky. i am a huge fan of live plants, and after setting up my first planted tank have really seen the difference it makes with cycling and maintaining any sized tank. when i was younger i lost alot of fish cycling without plants, but this time ive seen a huge difference in quality of life for the fish with the plants.

 

[Aprilbeingbasic]

Thank you for adding you thoughts to this thread. The more we share the more all of us will learn. I would feel better if folks would read about and understand the importance of the nitrogen cycle before getting fish but until they get into the hobby many of them have no idea it is important. Those are the folks that come to us for help when things aren't going well.

Thank you for this. Maybe calling it the wrong bacteria wasn't the right word. Diversity is a better word. I just felt like something was missing when just using bottle ammonia. I have actually learned a lot since posting this thread. Some of what I have learned has actually explained why what I've been seeing is happening and has kinda backed up my thoughts.

I feel like another way around this for beginners aswell is just add a heap of live plants. Plants eat ammonia up like crazy and you should have a pretty safe fish in cycle. Problem with that ofcourse is now you have to educate beginners on how to care for plants which is a whole new thing haha

 

[Dunk2]

mattgirl

It’s a great thread. The one and only thing I disagreed with is that one of the posts (not yours), in my opinion, discouraged using pure ammonia for fishless cycles.

While I’ve never used it, if anyone believes that adding fish food along with pure ammonia will enhance the cycling process, then by all means they should suggest that. But, again in my opinion, we shouldn’t be eliminating or discouraging proven cycling options, especially for the beginners.

I’m proud to say I’ve never lost a fish to either a fish-in or a fishless cycle using only pure ammonia. And I keep what some folks say is one of the most fragile fish you can keep.

 

[luluvontepes]

I feel like another way around this for beginners aswell is just add a heap of live plants. Plants eat ammonia up like crazy and you should have a pretty safe fish in cycle. Problem with that ofcourse is now you have to educate beginners on how to care for plants which is a whole new thing haha

this forum taught me all about the benefits of a live planted tank, and other tank learning the basics, i think it makes fish keeping way easier than the synthetic way. i think pet stores should be pushing the benefits of a live planted tank. it makes life easier for me and my fish.

 

[dMog]

biggest issue with fish in cycle....new fish keepers kill a lot of fish... using a dead shrimp . or pure ammonia an dosing to 4ppm not 1 ppm., well it works.. an no fis h suffer or die. Sure you all here commenting are experts or better when it comes to cycling and do not run into the problems a novice or a beginner will inevitably run into wit fish in cycles. You all aso know most pet stores will sell an aquarium and send people home with fish that ay ,or, instructions to come back in 4 days an buy 10 fish... I have no issue with experts with a fish in cycles... but even giving most new fish keepers great instructions ....they still run into issues and fish suffer for it an lots end up worse

 

[mattgirl]

i have always cycled with fish and recently live plants (lose a few plants but greatly helps with water stability). i dont use alot of chemicals (prime and occasional plant fertilizer). i watch water closely, do frequent water changes in beginning, and once i get my first ammonia spike and do a water change, i only need to watch nitrates. maybe ive been lucky, but it seems to work for me. i also use additives like tetra bio start in the VERY beginning. i do not use charcoal in my tanks, and ive added alot of bio material in the hob filters, so maybe thats why ive been lucky. i am a huge fan of live plants, and after setting up my first planted tank have really seen the difference it makes with cycling and maintaining any sized tank. when i was younger i lost alot of fish cycling without plants, but this time ive seen a huge difference in quality of life for the fish with the plants.

So have I. I had never heard of doing a fishless cycle until I joined this forum. Since so many folks here do fishless I've tried to educate myself on what it takes to be successful. Over time I realized some folks were having problems after they thought the tank was cycled.

That is the reason for this thread and why I have suggested using both liquid ammonia and a bit of fish food. With the liquid ammonia we can control the ammonia level. With the fish food we can add what seems to be missing.

I feel like another way around this for beginners aswell is just add a heap of live plants. Plants eat ammonia up like crazy and you should have a pretty safe fish in cycle. Problem with that ofcourse is now you have to educate beginners on how to care for plants which is a whole new thing haha

Up to a couple of years ago I never had live plants in my tanks. For me they have brought on a whole new set of issues. The biggest issue is the black beard algae I am dealing with. Before plants I never had any kind of algae in my tanks. Don't get me wrong, I do like my plants now that I am having more success with them but it is a whole new set of issues.

 

[dMog]

When you have plants in a tank and you are doing a cycle, fish in or fishless, and the plants are beginning to grow... you are getting an indication that the cycle is starting and coming in nicely for you... still nee to test parameters through

 

[ProudPapa]

biggest issue with fish in cycle....new fish keepers kill a lot of fish... using a dead shrimp . or pure ammonia an dosing to 4ppm not 1 ppm., well it works.. an no fis h suffer or die. Sure you all here commenting are experts or better when it comes to cycling and do not run into the problems a novice or a beginner will inevitably run into wit fish in cycles. You all aso know most pet stores will sell an aquarium and send people home with fish that ay ,or, instructions to come back in 4 days an buy 10 fish... I have no issue with experts with a fish in cycles... but even giving most new fish keepers great instructions ....they still run into issues and fish suffer for it an lots end up worse

I don't think I agree that it's inevitable that new fish keepers will run into problems with a fish-in cycle. As long as they do water changes when needed to keep ammonia and nitrites down to safe levels there shouldn't be any issues.

 

[mattgirl]

I don't think I agree that it's inevitable that new fish keepers will run into problems with a fish-in cycle. As long as they do water changes when needed to keep ammonia and nitrites down to safe levels there shouldn't be any issues.

I agree. When I got into this hobby many many years ago. Well before the internet and having information right at my fingertips any time of the day or night I had a little leaflet to guide me. It stressed fresh clean water to keep the ammonia level down. That is the main message I took away from it and still stress it today. It didn't go into any detail on cycling but I knew the tank had to grow bacteria and it took time.

 

[ferg42995]

I have to say, mattgirl, your advice on doing ammonia but also food worked PERFECTLY in my tank when I was cycling. The bacteria got super strong. I have added a ton of fish, snails, shrimp and the only casualties I had were from the one small school I bought from a place other than the LFS I most trust. Water parameters continue to remain constant and stable.

 

[mattgirl]

I have to say, mattgirl, your advice on doing ammonia but also food worked PERFECTLY in my tank when I was cycling. The bacteria got super strong. I have added a ton of fish, snails, shrimp and the only casualties I had were from the one small school I bought from a place other than the LFS I most trust. Water parameters continue to remain constant and stable.

Thank you bunches. I am so glad you posted this. I knew it had worked and worked well for you. Thank you for letting others know.

 

[Plecolover4477]

I definitely have to agree with you Mattgirl, has also helped me with my cycling..and a fish in at that.But her advice and knowledge is very dependable and proven.

 

[Katie Dawn]

This has been such an interesting read! Thank you mattgirl for creating the thread. And an even bigger thank you from me and the countless others you have helped through the nitrogen cycle - whether fish in or fishless. You are a gem!

 

[Plecolover4477]

This has been such an interesting read! Thank you mattgirl for creating the thread. And an even bigger thank you from me and the countless others you have helped through the nitrogen cycle - whether fish in or fishless. You are a gem!

Yup Mattgirl is the best

 

[Sputnik]

I think you hit the nail on the head. I have to think the problem resolves when the "right components" were finally in there to grow and feed the right kind of bacteria.

I didnt see this when I used ammonia to do a fishless cycle, but maybe because I plant all my tanks, usually fairly heavily. Maybe shed leaves stand in for fish food or fish poop? A planted tank always has organic detritus.

 

[mattgirl]

I didnt see this when I used ammonia to do a fishless cycle, but maybe because I plant all my tanks, usually fairly heavily. Maybe shed leaves stand in for fish food or fish poop? A planted tank always has organic detritus.

I agree. The plants were probably adding the extra things needed. I need to pay more attention to the tanks this happens to. I have to think the majority of them aren't planted.

 

[Dechi]

My opinion on fishless cycling with ammonia not working is that it’s a difficult process, although it seems very easy.

I think experienced fish keepers would be a lot more likely to have success with it than newbies, because they know the value of going slow, measuring and testing. I also suspect most of the failures when doing fish-in cycling are due to lack of general knowledge of water chemistry and fish keeping. Also, the instructions on Dr Tim’s bottle and website are confusing and sometimes contradictory. I can’t blame anyone for making mistakes. Anyone would.

I, myself, have always been doing fish-in cycling. And it takes time and is a ton of work if you don’t want it to impact fish health ! So many water changes for so long...

This time I’m setting up a saltwater tank and I didn’t want to be doing costly water changes everyday and risk losing expensive fish, invertebrates and corals. So I went the Dr Tim’s way. I read a lot and still had to make adaptations to the instructions because they just didn’t work.

I’m on day 11 or 12 of my cycle and I must say it has been a breeze. No water changes, no stress over fish being affected by ammonia or nitrites. Right now I’m entering the nitrite spike phase and if everything goes well, I might be done in a week, which means my cycle will have taken 18-20 days instead of my usual 25-30 days for a fish-in cycle. Oh, and if I had followed the instructions on the bottle blindly, my cycle would have probably been stuck for weeks.

We’ll see how it goes, I’ll let you know. Maybe I jinxed it and I will be cycling for months, lol !

 

[Sputnik]

My opinion on fishless cycling with ammonia not working is that it’s a difficult process, although it seems very easy.

I think experienced fish keepers would be a lot more likely to have success with it than newbies, because they know the value of going slow, measuring and testing. I also suspect most of the failures when doing fish-in cycling are due to lack of general knowledge of water chemistry and fish keeping. Also, the instructions on Dr Tim’s bottle and website are confusing and sometimes contradictory. I can’t blame anyone for making mistakes. Anyone would.

I, myself, have always been doing fish-in cycling. And it takes time and is a ton of work if you don’t want it to impact fish health ! So many water changes for so long...

This time I’m setting up a saltwater tank and I didn’t want to be doing costly water changes everyday and risk losing expensive fish, invertebrates and corals. So I went the Dr Tim’s way. I read a lot and still had to make adaptations to the instructions because they just didn’t work.

I’m on day 11 or 12 of my cycle and I must say it has been a breeze. No water changes, no stress over fish being affected by ammonia or nitrites. Right now I’m entering the nitrite spike phase and if everything goes well, I might be done in a week, which means my cycle will have taken 18-20 days instead of my usual 25-30 days for a fish-in cycle. Oh, and if I had followed the instructions on the bottle blindly, my cycle would have probably been stuck for weeks.

We’ll see how it goes, I’ll let you know. Maybe I jinxed it and I will be cycling for months, lol !

If successful, would you consider writing an article about your modifications? I think it would help a lot of people! I have never used Dr. Tims, but I know many people do. Good luck and show us your salty tank!

 

[mattgirl]

My opinion on fishless cycling with ammonia not working is that it’s a difficult process, although it seems very easy.

I think experienced fish keepers would be a lot more likely to have success with it than newbies, because they know the value of going slow, measuring and testing. I also suspect most of the failures when doing fish-in cycling are due to lack of general knowledge of water chemistry and fish keeping. Also, the instructions on Dr Tim’s bottle and website are confusing and sometimes contradictory. I can’t blame anyone for making mistakes. Anyone would.

I, myself, have always been doing fish-in cycling. And it takes time and is a ton of work if you don’t want it to impact fish health ! So many water changes for so long...

This time I’m setting up a saltwater tank and I didn’t want to be doing costly water changes everyday and risk losing expensive fish, invertebrates and corals. So I went the Dr Tim’s way. I read a lot and still had to make adaptations to the instructions because they just didn’t work.

I’m on day 11 or 12 of my cycle and I must say it has been a breeze. No water changes, no stress over fish being affected by ammonia or nitrites. Right now I’m entering the nitrite spike phase and if everything goes well, I might be done in a week, which means my cycle will have taken 18-20 days instead of my usual 25-30 days for a fish-in cycle. Oh, and if I had followed the instructions on the bottle blindly, my cycle would have probably been stuck for weeks.

We’ll see how it goes, I’ll let you know. Maybe I jinxed it and I will be cycling for months, lol !

Like you I have always done fish in cycling. I didn't even know folks did fishless cycling. I didn't even now there was such a thing as bacteria in a bottle until I spent some time here on this forum.

Since I now know there is such a thing as fishless cycling with or without bottled bacteria I have spent time learning all I can about the process. If done right it does work and is a lot less work than doing a fish in cycle. Since no lives are at stake fishless shouldn't be as stressful as a fish in.

Please let us know how your fishless cycle turns out.

 

[Dechi]

If successful, would you consider writing an article about your modifications? I think it would help a lot of people! I have never used Dr. Tims, but I know many people do. Good luck and show us your salty tank!

I don’t know how it works for writing articles, but if it the process is successful it would be my pleasure.

 

[Sputnik]

I don’t know how it works for writing articles, but if it the process is successful it would be my pleasure.

Not sure either but there must be a thread somewhere- when I have a bit of time I’d like to do one on Madagascar lace plant care...ones on cycling are really helpful though!

 

[mattgirl]

I, myself, have always been doing fish-in cycling. And it takes time and is a ton of work if you don’t want it to impact fish health ! So many water changes for so long...

This time I’m setting up a saltwater tank and I didn’t want to be doing costly water changes everyday and risk losing expensive fish, invertebrates and corals. So I went the Dr Tim’s way. I read a lot and still had to make adaptations to the instructions because they just didn’t work.

I’m on day 11 or 12 of my cycle and I must say it has been a breeze. No water changes, no stress over fish being affected by ammonia or nitrites. Right now I’m entering the nitrite spike phase and if everything goes well, I might be done in a week, which means my cycle will have taken 18-20 days instead of my usual 25-30 days for a fish-in cycle. Oh, and if I had followed the instructions on the bottle blindly, my cycle would have probably been stuck for weeks.

We’ll see how it goes, I’ll let you know. Maybe I jinxed it and I will be cycling for months, lol !

Just checking in with you to see how this cycle is progressing. It has been 2 weeks since this post so hopefully by now the cycling process is done.

 

[JTW]

I'm a bit late to this thread, but I'd like to put my 2 cents in. I have a few points to address, so this might get a bit long.

I've had consistently good results doing fishless cycles. I've done them from scratch and I've done them with filtered media. I have always used pure ammonia. I've never had problems during the cycle or afterwards. I find it to be a stress free method that adapts to my schedule, instead of vice-versa.

So I stand by the method in the way that I have applied it.

Bu I have never done a true barebones fishless cycle. One with just a tank, filter, heater, substrate and water. I have always had plants, bladder snails, and natural wood/rocks right from the start in every tank. So all those details might be making a key difference when compared to the more spartan setups.

We also need to acknowledge that there is no generally agreed upon method for fishless cycling. There is a lot of variability in how people are going about it.

Some people are dosing very high levels of ammonia. Up to 5ppm. Others are dosing 2ppm. Some people are keeping the ammonia level steady all the time. Others let it drop to 0 and then dose again. Some people are waiting until ammonia and nitrite levels go to 0 in 24 hours. Others are satisfied to see it happen over a few days. Are all these methods getting the same end result? I doubt it.

Personally I think that many people are heavily overdosing their tanks with ammonia and I think that is causing problems during the cycle and possibly after it as well. They aren't simulating the actual conditions that will exist in the tank.

I have cycled tanks with ammonia levels dosed to 1ppm or less, and then let it drop to nothing before dosing again. And I might let it stay at zero for a little while if the nitrite levels aren't dropping yet. People get very nervous about starving their bacteria, and I think those fears are unfounded. I also don't wait for the ammonia/nitrite to be processed within 24 hours. As soon as I see that there is a stable process in place I start adding fish and feed sparingly. But again, I always have plants, and snails, and wood and rock, and that might be the key to my method.

Its also important to remember that we've seen a lot of new people enter the hobby this past year. And people who aren't having problems don't seek help from forums. So we're seeing a very biased data sample. Only the people with problems end up here.

At the end of the day I will continue using my method, because in my experience, it is a robust method that requires very little work, and is not demanding of my time.

 

[mattgirl]

JeremyW Thank you for your well thought out reply. You have made some very good points. I have to think in your case you are already adding what the fish food will add.

The cycles I've observed having problems are only being fed liquid ammonia. There is nothing else alive in these tanks. Not all tanks being fed only ammonia are having a problem but enough of them are having one to have prompted this thread and also my recommendations out in the open forum.

I also agree in most cases too much ammonia is being added and is overwhelming the tank. I try to base the amount of ammonia on the size of the tank being cycled. The amount of ammonia needed truly is not a one size fits all situation.

 

[JTW]

Yeah, I'm not entirely surprised that those are the tanks with problems.

I think the key takeaway from all this is that biodiversity is key to finding a robust balance.

New tanks with nothing but water and ammonia can find a balance, but its fragile. Like a spinning basketball on the tip of your finger. Plenty of people do it, but when the conditions change, that balance can be lost completely and quickly.

But the more layers of biodiversity we add, the more stability we add to the system. As long as each layer falls within the limitations of the tank of course.

I'm actually starting to venture into the realm of fish breeding which I'm excited about. I've got my first breeder tank in a fishless cycle right now actually. My instincts tell me that these principles of biodiversity and stability will apply there as well, and I'm going to test that out. Much of the internet recommends minimalist, bare-bottomed tanks. But I'm going the other way. Sand substrate, lots of rocks, wood, leaf litter, and a bunch of plants. We'll see how it goes.

 

[mattgirl]

Yeah, I'm not entirely surprised that those are the tanks with problems.

I think the key takeaway from all this is that biodiversity is key to finding a robust balance.

I think you are absolutely right.

New tanks with nothing but water and ammonia can find a balance, but its fragile. Like a spinning basketball on the tip of your finger. Plenty of people do it, but when the conditions change, that balance can be lost completely and quickly.

But the more layers of biodiversity we add, the more stability we add to the system. As long as each layer falls within the limitations of the tank of course.

Agreed, and this is why a seemingly cycled tank fails once fish are added. Adding fish changes the food the bacteria is being fed. I often say cycling a tank is a balancing act.

Change one thing and the house of cards can come tumbling down. A little super glue (fish food in this case) should prevent the crash. Plants instead of fish food may accomplish the same thing but often someone new to this hobby has enough on their plate without having to learn how to take care of plants too.

I'm actually starting to venture into the realm of fish breeding which I'm excited about. I've got my first breeder tank in a fishless cycle right now actually. My instincts tell me that these principles of biodiversity and stability will apply there as well, and I'm going to test that out. Much of the internet recommends minimalist, bare-bottomed tanks. But I'm going the other way. Sand substrate, lots of rocks, wood, leaf litter, and a bunch of plants. We'll see how it goes.

Hopefully you will start a thread sharing your breeding journey with us so we can follow along with you. Please tag me if you do.