How many times do I cycle before it's safe for fish?

[Desertdame]

Not a total newbie, but first new cycled fishless tank using ammonia, 3rd new tank ever. I'm a bit confused about how many times to cycle before it's safe. What I mean is I see threads that say, once ammonia, nitrites and nitrates are at zero, it's safe for fish. Others say, after zeroing out, add more ammonia and make sure it cycles to zero in 24 hours. Others say do that several times.

It's a new 5 gallon tank. I added the teeny established filter from 2.5 gal, plus anubias, Java fern, wood & a couple hands full of gravel from 6 month old established tank. I'm doing fishless cycling. Used detritus from established tank for initial ammonia spike of .25ppm. Waited 3 days, no changes.

So I dosed Dr. Tim's ammonia to 4ppm & added Tetrasafe. 12 hours later it's cycling already! (That's so cool! ) It's now at 2ppm NH3, .25 NO2, & 5ppm NO3.

I know I wait for NH3 & NO2 to zero out. Then I change out water to reduce nitrates to safe level. Am I done after that? Is it safe to add Fred the betta? Or do I need to do that 1 or more additional times?

Ty much for your help!

P.S. I just discovered this forum, and I just love it!

 

[bored411]

you should be adding at least 2ppm of ammonia every day until the nitrite and ammonia turn to 0 after 24 hours. after that, you should be cycled!

 

[Dunk2]

Not a total newbie, but first new cycled fishless tank using ammonia, 3rd new tank ever. I'm a bit confused about how many times to cycle before it's safe. What I mean is I see threads that say, once ammonia, nitrites and nitrates are at zero, it's safe for fish. Others say, after zeroing out, add more ammonia and make sure it cycles to zero in 24 hours. Others say do that several times.

It's a new 5 gallon tank. I added the teeny established filter from 2.5 gal, plus anubias, Java fern, wood & a couple hands full of gravel from 6 month old established tank. I'm doing fishless cycling. Used detritus from established tank for initial ammonia spike of .25ppm. Waited 3 days, no changes.

So I dosed Dr. Tim's ammonia to 4ppm & added Tetrasafe. 12 hours later it's cycling already! (That's so cool! ) It's now at 2ppm NH3, .25 NO2, & 5ppm NO3.

I know I wait for NH3 & NO2 to zero out. Then I change out water to reduce nitrates to safe level. Am I done after that? Is it safe to add Fred the betta? Or do I need to do that 1 or more additional times?

Ty much for your help!

P.S. I just discovered this forum, and I just love it!

Welcome to Fishlore!

What you described in the first paragraph of your post are steps in the cycling process or different methods for cycling, not different or multiple cycles. Those steps basically involve feeding the tank with ammonia in order to start and grow a colony of beneficial bacteria. Some folks redose ammonia each time it falls below their “target” level (my preferred approach) and others wait until ammonia and nitrites reach 0 before redosing ammonia.

A tank is fully cycled when you are able to fully process your targeted ammonia level through to nitrates in a 24 hour period. Once this happens, you typically have 0 ammonia and nitrites and some level of nitrates. Unless you are able to use filter media from an established tank (which you did), a full cycle typically takes 4 - 6 weeks.

In your case, and given your tank size, I’d suggest that dosing ammonia to 2.0 ppm is plenty. When your tank is able to process the full amount of ammonia through to nitrates (0 ammonia and nitrites and some nitrates) in a 24 hour period, you’re cycled! It seems like your established filter gave you a good jump start!

Does that help?

 

[Desertdame]

Ty for that I info Exactly what I needed to know! I'll do that.

But I'm gonna beg your indulgence here for a bit further. I'm just so curious, and I want to understand this so I gotta ask. I guess there's something chemically here I don't understand in the cycling process.

Why continue to add ammonia and wait until it to zeroes out in 24 hours? Why isn't just once enough?

Ty again!

 

[Dunk2]

Ty for that I info Exactly what I needed to know! I'll do that.

But I'm gonna beg your indulgence here for a bit further. I'm just so curious, and I want to understand this so I gotta ask. I guess there's something chemically here I don't understand in the cycling process.

Why continue to add ammonia and wait until it to zeroes out in 24 hours? Why isn't just once enough?

Ty again!

Cause the bacteria are like kids. . . They need time and constant feeding to grow.

 

[Desertdame]

Welcome to Fishlore!

What you described in the first paragraph of your post are steps in the cycling process or different methods for cycling, not different or multiple cycles. Those steps basically involve feeding the tank with ammonia in order to start and grow a colony of beneficial bacteria. Some folks redose ammonia each time it falls below their “target” level (my preferred approach) and others wait until ammonia and nitrites reach 0 before redosing ammonia.

A tank is fully cycled when you are able to fully process your targeted ammonia level through to nitrates in a 24 hour period. Once this happens, you typically have 0 ammonia and nitrites and some level of nitrates. Unless you are able to use filter media from an established tank (which you did), a full cycle typically takes 4 - 6 weeks.

In your case, and given your tank size, I’d suggest that dosing ammonia to 2.0 ppm is plenty. When your tank is able to process the full amount of ammonia through to nitrates (0 ammonia and nitrites and some nitrates) in a 24 hour period, you’re cycled! It seems like your established filter gave you a good jump start!

Does that help?

Yes, that helped soooo much! Ty! I've read so much stuff everywhere about fish cycling that I think I'm on overload, and Fred wants to get in his new, more spacious home ASAP. I appreciate your help!

 

[Dunk2]

Yes, that helped soooo much! Ty! I've read so much stuff everywhere about fish cycling that I think I'm on overload, and Fred wants to get in his new, more spacious home ASAP. I appreciate your help!

Be sure to post a picture of Fred when he gets in his new home.

 

[Azedenkae]

Hi there! I believe the confusion here stems from the definition of cycling itself (versus what it may imply itself to be), and rightfully so! If I am not mistaken, the term 'cycle' to you seems to talking about the adding of ammonia, waiting, then re-adding, and so on. I mean that is a cycle, but not exactly what 'cycling' is referring to per se.

So in short, the term cycling is derived from the 'nitrogen cycle', the namesake of this subforum. However, it is not meant to define a cycling process. Almost everyone accepts the term cycling in this hobby as establishing nitrification in our aquarium, which is only one part of the nitrogen cycle. This translates to establishing microorganisms that can oxidize ammonia to nitrate, with nitrite as the intermediate. More specifically, it's a lithotrophic process, i.e. where the ammonia is used as an energy source. However, the minutia varies from one person to another in how they define it. I define a completed cycle as where there is enough nitrifiers (microorganisms that handle the nitrification) to completely oxidize 2ppm ammonia to nitrate in 24 hours, i.e. enough to handle even a very heavily fed, heavily stocked tank. In that sense, I would also expect that a tank is able to be fully stocked to 100% capacity immediately after a cycle, and I have always done so. Others consider a different ppm, and then there are those that consider any sign at all of ammonia and nitrite oxidation to consider a tank cycled... those cases are also where one has to stock very slowly, and should also expect to see at least some ammonia and/or nitrite even post-cycle anyways.

So to answer your question in your second post, adding ammonia more than once is not applicable in all cases. But in a lot of cases, it is needed.

So let's say one adds ammonia only once, say 2ppm, and it takes 20 days for both ammonia and nitrite to zero out. That means that currently, the tank can only fully oxidize 0.1ppm ammonia to nitrate (not considering exponential increases in oxidation rates at this point), which is not a lot at all. This is the case above where I mentioned how some people are adamant about slow stocking even after the cycle. I mean obviously if the oxidation rate is 0.1ppm/day, absolutely slow stocking is crucial.

But so long as there is an energy source for the nitrifiers, and space that they can continue to take over, they'll keep on using ammonia and nitrite as energy sources and continue to reproduce. So the rate of oxidation becomes higher and higher over time. 0.1ppm/day initially, then 0.2ppm, then higher and higher until it reaches 2ppm a day. And that's the idea. By dosing ammonia multiple times, we will hopefully reach a point where ammonia oxidation is at 2ppm/day, which is what we want.

 

[Desertdame]

Hi there! I believe the confusion here stems from the definition of cycling itself (versus what it may imply itself to be), and rightfully so! If I am not mistaken, the term 'cycle' to you seems to talking about the adding of ammonia, waiting, then re-adding, and so on. I mean that is a cycle, but not exactly what 'cycling' is referring to per se.

So in short, the term cycling is derived from the 'nitrogen cycle', the namesake of this subforum. However, it is not meant to define a cycling process. Almost everyone accepts the term cycling in this hobby as establishing nitrification in our aquarium, which is only one part of the nitrogen cycle. This translates to establishing microorganisms that can oxidize ammonia to nitrate, with nitrite as the intermediate. More specifically, it's a lithotrophic process, i.e. where the ammonia is used as an energy source. However, the minutia varies from one person to another in how they define it. I define a completed cycle as where there is enough nitrifiers (microorganisms that handle the nitrification) to completely oxidize 2ppm ammonia to nitrate in 24 hours, i.e. enough to handle even a very heavily fed, heavily stocked tank. In that sense, I would also expect that a tank is able to be fully stocked to 100% capacity immediately after a cycle, and I have always done so. Others consider a different ppm, and then there are those that consider any sign at all of ammonia and nitrite oxidation to consider a tank cycled... those cases are also where one has to stock very slowly, and should also expect to see at least some ammonia and/or nitrite even post-cycle anyways.

So to answer your question in your second post, adding ammonia more than once is not applicable in all cases. But in a lot of cases, it is needed.

So let's say one adds ammonia only once, say 2ppm, and it takes 20 days for both ammonia and nitrite to zero out. That means that currently, the tank can only fully oxidize 0.1ppm ammonia to nitrate (not considering exponential increases in oxidation rates at this point), which is not a lot at all. This is the case above where I mentioned how some people are adamant about slow stocking even after the cycle. I mean obviously if the oxidation rate is 0.1ppm/day, absolutely slow stocking is crucial.

But so long as there is an energy source for the nitrifiers, and space that they can continue to take over, they'll keep on using ammonia and nitrite as energy sources and continue to reproduce. So the rate of oxidation becomes higher and higher over time. 0.1ppm/day initially, then 0.2ppm, then higher and higher until it reaches 2ppm a day. And that's the idea. By dosing ammonia multiple times, we will hopefully reach a point where ammonia oxidation is at 2ppm/day, which is what we want.

First, I want you to know how much I appreciate your answer to my question. It took a lot of time for you to put that together, and it's sincerely appreciated.

That being said, I only had to read it three times and look up a couple definitions before comprehension kicked in ☺️ but I always love a challenge. I'm kinda geeky in that I want to understand the process as much as possible, not just the dumbed down version.

Anyway, you said, "So the rate of oxidation becomes higher and higher over time." That, in a nutshell, was what I didn't understand right there.I thought that, once I established any amount of oxidation, I could safely fully stock. So I think I understand now how some folks are doing one round - for lack of a better word - to zero, then stocking slowly afterward. I'm guessing they're doing a lot of water changes too

But I'd rather take the oxidation to 2ppm because it sounds like it's the safest for Fred the Betta, and I do intend to add at least one otocinclus and maybe some shrimp.

TY!

 

[MacZ]

I do intend to add at least one otocinclus

Otocinclus are finicky feeding specialists and should really not be added to a new-ish tank. Seasoned tanks of at least 6 months or longer are best. It takes an established 20 gallon to sustain 2-3 Otocinclus. If that isn't provided they starve pretty quickly. Supplementory feeding is advised but with the kind of food needed and especially the time it has to be offered (24/7 if possible!) the water quality in your tank will deteriorate quickly. It's just not feasable.
A 5 gallon tank, even fully established, is not going to sustain an Oto longterm with aufwuchs. Just stick to the shrimp.

 

[Azedenkae]

First, I want you to know how much I appreciate your answer to my question. It took a lot of time for you to put that together, and it's sincerely appreciated.

That being said, I only had to read it three times and look up a couple definitions before comprehension kicked in ☺️ but I always love a challenge. I'm kinda geeky in that I want to understand the process as much as possible, not just the dumbed down version.

Anyway, you said, "So the rate of oxidation becomes higher and higher over time." That, in a nutshell, was what I didn't understand right there.I thought that, once I established any amount of oxidation, I could safely fully stock. So I think I understand now how some folks are doing one round - for lack of a better word - to zero, then stocking slowly afterward. I'm guessing they're doing a lot of water changes too

But I'd rather take the oxidation to 2ppm because it sounds like it's the safest for Fred the Betta, and I do intend to add at least one otocinclus and maybe some shrimp.

TY!

Yep, you got it. And yep, that's why some people have to do heaps of water changes, dose Prime, stock slowly, etc., and may still even see quite a bit of ammonia even after a 'cycle' while others may take more time, but then they just chuck all their fish in at once and chill. XD