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Hi folks, what brands do you recommend as best quality and nutrition for white cloud mountain minnows. And is it easily crumbled to size?
High quality flakes for WCMM's
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I am happy with Ultrafresh, you would not need to crumble it, the pellets are small,"except for the jumbo sticks" more sensible for many fish. My second favorite is New Life Spectrum, my third is Bug Bites, fourth is Omega One.
OP
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A lot of searching and it appears many recommend a tropical food rather than a food specifically for temperate fish. Is it ok to feed these coldwater fish tropical pellets or flakes?
I was thinking of trying these.
https://www.hikari.info/tropical/t_02.html
I was thinking of trying these.
https://www.hikari.info/tropical/t_02.html
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By and large Hikari’s dry foods are not the greatest.
Ingredients are:
Fish meal, krill meal, soybean meal, flaked corn, cuttlefish meal, brewers dried yeast, wheat germ meal, wheat starch, fish oil, powdered cellulose, hydrolyzed vegetable sucrose polyesters, dried seaweed meal, lecithin, DL-methionine, garlic, spirulina, astaxanthin, choline chloride, vitamin E supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (stabilized vitamin C), inositol, d-calcium pantothenate, riboflavin, vitamin A supplement, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, niacin, folic acid, vitamin D3 supplement, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement,?disodium phosphate, salt, ferrous sulfate, magnesium sulfate, zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate, copper sulfate, calcium iodate.
To break that down, no name fish, krill, cuttlefish etc. meals can be of any quality from lousy to a long way from ideal but they are never excellent.
Soybean meal isn’t horrible but flaked corn isn’t great and both are very cheap. The yeast is fine, the wheat germ meal is cheap and the starch is dirt cheap filler and probably also used to bind the food.
The powdered cellulose is a very cheap filler that is 100% indigestible by most fish, because it’s made from wood. Yep, I said wood!
‘hydrolyzed vegetable sucrose polyesters’ are something I never want to see in pet food or any other food because the stuff is a fake fat. For humans it was brand named Olestra and used to make low fat potato chips that gave you horrible diarrhea if you ate a few too many. Has no business in anything that’s meant to be eaten, in any amount, in my opinion.
I’d feed them mostly live or frozen foods, if they were mine. Just my preference, I I try to feed as closely to what they’d eat wild as I can.
Can you get Northfin brand fish food? It’s quite good, no junk ingredients.
WCMM are carnivorous micro predators. In the wild, analyses of stomach contents reveal a diet that’s made up almost entirely of small prey, insects, crustaceans, worms, etc.
I‘d feed something like Northfin’s Krill Gold when necessary but mostly live or frozen foods.
Or get Fluval’s Bug Bites tropical pellets - which are far better and don’t contain as much filler or indigestible fillers and are based on soldier fly larvae so it’s insect based protein for the most part, which is better for these guys than all the suspect quality seafood meals are.
Black soldier fly larvae, salmon, fish protein concentrate, green peas, potato, wheat, dicalcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, DL-methionine, lecithin, choline chloride, L-lysine, vitamin E supplement, biotin, niacin, calcium L-ascorbyl-2-monophosphate, marigold extract, zinc oxide, manganous oxide, D- .
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OP
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In the uk we do get a food marketed for temperate species. Tetra do a temperate flake and love fish do one.
Wow, thanks for the valuable info. This will be my go to requirements when i purchase my next food for the minnows.
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I have the XTreme community crave and Cobalt Brine shrimp right now. I also feed the Bug bites flakes. They like the Cobalt the least of the 3. In between they get frozen selections. Sometimes live.
I would say Bug bites flakes are the best "cheaper?" food. The fish all like it too.
I would say Bug bites flakes are the best "cheaper?" food. The fish all like it too.
OP
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Food recommendations is always a hot topic. Lol.
IMO, all the noted name brand flake foods mentioned above would be just fine for your WCMM's. I've fed many of them to my smaller fish with positive results.
During the Covid, many of the sought after fish foods were no longer available in my area. As a result I started feeding the more abundant Tetra Min flakes. To my surprise the the fish continued to remain healthy & colorful & I saved a few dollars as compared to the other foods.
I usually mix in NLS Thera +A tiny sinking pellets for the bottom feeders.
IMO, all the noted name brand flake foods mentioned above would be just fine for your WCMM's. I've fed many of them to my smaller fish with positive results.
During the Covid, many of the sought after fish foods were no longer available in my area. As a result I started feeding the more abundant Tetra Min flakes. To my surprise the the fish continued to remain healthy & colorful & I saved a few dollars as compared to the other foods.
I usually mix in NLS Thera +A tiny sinking pellets for the bottom feeders.
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I guess it depends on the core flakes you are using now? They would be a lot better than the regular Tetra or whatever at the store. Omega One is also pretty decent food that is fairly easy to find.
Can you get frozen food at all? Like frozen not "freeze dried"? Blood worms and brine shrimp are treats to feed in between flakes for a more balanced diet. They like a little variety too. You wouldnt want to eat the same thing every day would you?
OP
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I certainly will get frozen treats for them. I will invest in some better flakes or pellets in regards to ingredients. I totally appreciate its a hot topic and a lot of it based on opinion but also biology! This is all useful opinions to me though being a newbie to all of thisI guess it depends on the core flakes you are using now? They would be a lot better than the regular Tetra or whatever at the store. Omega One is also pretty decent food that is fairly easy to find.
Can you get frozen food at all? Like frozen not "freeze dried"? Blood worms and brine shrimp are treats to feed in between flakes for a more balanced diet. They like a little variety too. You wouldnt want to eat the same thing every day would you?
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As manmade food for fish goes, they’re better than all the truly appalling stuff and would be better as a dietary staple if frozen or live foods aren’t going to be the mainstays.
There are downsides to any food that’s eaten too often. Fish and other seafood meals can have high levels of heavy metals, particularly mercury, for an example.
Soldier fly larva meal is currently produced by feeding the flies and the larvae with waste food - food that would otherwise have been composted or landfilled. So far, the flies are only raised and processed for animal feeds where safety standards are not nearly as stringent as they are for human grade foods and while results using the meal have been good so far, analysis has shown that heavy metal accumulation in the larvae is a concern and so is bacterial contamination - lots of bacteria are found in them which are a concern for human health, such as Stape aureus, E.coli, etc.
There’s also a potential for allergic reactions for humans that handle the stuff.
So it’s not perfect is the point but I suspect fish meal is a lot worse. Among other things, it’s often stored for very long periods of time and it absolutely must be preserved with a strong antioxidant so it can be safely shipped. Without the antioxidant additives, the stuff tends to explode. There have been ships sunk by exploding fish meal. The usual preservative is a controversial one called Ethoxyquin, which is also used as a pesticide - isn’t that special? Rosemary extract is also used but costs much more and is thus not used regularly - usually if foods were made with meals that were preserved with rosemary the package will say so because it really is a big plus.
All that said, there are only so many choices. Foods like Bug Bites are more sustainably produced and at least avoid the ethoxyquin and mercury from the oceans.
Foods that use a lot of plant based proteins and carbohydrates that are intended for fish may have reasonable looking crude analyses, which is all you will ever find on the package - Crude Protein, Crude Fat, etc., but if they’re intended for fish that are largely predatory they may not have enough animal based protein in them. Plant protein is cheap, animal protein not so much.
It’s useful to remember that fish preferentially get their energy from protein, not carbs. We get our energy preferentially from carbs and have to go into ketosis to get energy from fat or protein, but even fish that are exclusively herbivorous still preferentially get their energy from protein. It’s why protein levels in fish foods are as high as they are and sadly, they are not always high enough.
With manmade dry fish foods, what you want to see are named seafood meals (such as Whole Menhaden meal) or the fly larva meal and few if any complex carbohydrates.
Wheat flour happens to be a good binding agent and these are necessary to make the food extrudable or flakeable but it should not be high on the ingredient list.
For carnivorous fish you want the protein to come from an animal source and ideally no carbs beyond the necessary binding agent.
For herbivorous fish, you also don’t want to see a lot of complex carbs as they mostly eat green leafy plants or algae, which do not have much in the way of complex carb content.
The best ingredient lists won’t have grain on them, except possibly flour as a binder and will have whole named seafood meals, or the fly larvae meal and things like kelp, spirulina, etc. But those are expensive and the cheap foods don’t use them or use them in such tiny amounts that they are mostly there just to make the list look better than it really is - they will be at the list’s end with the vitamin/mineral supplements.
Ingredients I really do like to see are things like whole named seafood meals, the larval meal, kelp, spirulina, astaxanthin ( colour enhancer and antioxidant) Beta glucans. Seaweed is good, protein from soy or other legumes is ok ( but not ideal for carnivores).
Don’t know that they’re great but don’t mind seeing garlic or probiotic substances - not sure how valuable they are but they do no harm that I know of.
I do not want to see grains, not corn or rice or anything else ( exception for rice bran in some things) gluten meal, wheat germ, dried bakery product, hydrolyzed vegetable sucrose polyesters, and a few other things that escape me at the moment.
It can be a daunting task trying to decode what the labels truly mean
.
OP
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Absolutely mind boggling I think it will be a case of learning what bad ingredients to avoid, just like I've been doing as a human for years! Now I have to do it for my fish!As manmade food for fish goes, they’re better than all the truly appalling stuff and would be better as a dietary staple if frozen or live foods aren’t going to be the mainstays.
There are downsides to any food that’s eaten too often. Fish and other seafood meals can have high levels of heavy metals, particularly mercury, for an example.
Soldier fly larva meal is currently produced by feeding the flies and the larvae with waste food - food that would otherwise have been composted or landfilled. So far, the flies are only raised and processed for animal feeds where safety standards are not nearly as stringent as they are for human grade foods and while results using the meal have been good so far, analysis has shown that heavy metal accumulation in the larvae is a concern and so is bacterial contamination - lots of bacteria are found in them which are a concern for human health, such as Stape aureus, E.coli, etc.
There’s also a potential for allergic reactions for humans that handle the stuff.
So it’s not perfect, is the point but I suspect fish meal is a lot worse. Among other things, it’s often stored for very long periods of time and it absolutely must be preserved with a strong antioxidant so it can be safely shipped. Without the antioxidant additives, the stuff tends to explode. There have been ships sunk by exploding fish meal. The usual preservative is a controversial one called Ethoxyquin, which is also used as a pesticide - isn’t that special? Rosemary extract is also used but costs much more and is thus not used regularly - usually if foods were made with meals that were preserved with rosemary the package will say so because it really is a big plus.
All that said, there are only so many choices and foods like Bug Bites are more sustainably produced and at least avoid the ethoxyquin and mercury from the oceans.
Foods that use a lot of plant based proteins and carbohydrates that are intended for fish may have reasonable looking crude analyses, which is all you will ever find on the package - Crude Protein, Crude Fat, etc., but if they’re intended for fish that are largely predatory they may not have enough animal based protein in them if they’re cheap.
It’s useful to remember that fish preferentially get their energy from protein, not carbs. We get our energy preferentially from carbs and have to go into ketosis to get energy from fat or protein, but even fish that are exclusively herbivorous preferentially get their energy from protein. It’s why protein levels in fish foods are as high as they are and sadly, they are not always high enough.
With manmade dry fish foods, what you want to see are named seafood meals (such as Whole Menhaden meal) or the fly larva meal and few if any complex carbohydrates.
Wheat flour happens to be a good binding agent and these are necessary to make the food extrudable or flakeable but it should not be high on the ingredient list.
For carnivorous fish you want the protein to come from an animal source and ideally no carbs beyond the necessary binding agent.
For herbivorous fish, you also don’t want to see a lot of complex carbs as they mostly eat green leafy plants or algae, which do not have much in the way of complex carb content.
The best ingredient lists won’t have grain on them, except possible flour as a binder and will have whole named seafood meals, or the fly larvae meal and things like kelp, spirulina, etc. But those are expensive and the cheap foods don’t use them or use them in such tiny amounts that they are mostly there just to make the list look better than it really is - they will at the list’s end with the vitamin/mineral supplements.
Ingredients I love to see are things like whole named seafood meals, the larval meal, kelp, spirulina, astaxanthin ( colour enhancer and antioxidant) Beta glucans. Seaweed is good, protein from soy or other legumes is ok ( but not ideal for carnivores).
Don’t know that they’re great but don’t mind seeing garlic or probiotic substances - not sure how valuable they are but they do no harm that I know
I do not want to see grains, not corn or rice or anything else ( exception for rice bran in some things) gluten meal, wheat germ, dried bakery product, hydrolyzed vegetable sucrose polyesters, and a few other things that escape me at the moment.
It can be a daunting task trying to decode what the labels truly mean
Many thanks for your input.
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OP
- Messages
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- Messages
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Daily flakes ingredients are:
Raw protein 41%; raw fat 17%; raw fibre 1%; raw ash 6%. Ingredients: Whole salmon, whole shrimp, wheat flour, kelp, whole herring, wheat gluten. Additives: Nutritional additives (per 1,000 g): Vitamin A (3a672a) 14.000 IE, vitamin C (3a312) 800 mg, vitamin E (3a700) 680 mg, niacin (3a314) 100 mg, inositol (3a900) 100 mg, vitamin B2 (3a825i) 20 mg, vitamin B12 50 μg. Sensory additives (per 1,000 g): Astaxanthin (2a161j) 15 mg
No meals, not a lot of carbs. I wonder if the gluten is there to help keep flakes together? I’d have to do some research on that. But this is good.
The Daily Granulate contains
Raw protein 41%; raw fat 17%; raw fibre 1%; raw ash 6%. Ingredients: Whole salmon, whole shrimp, wheat flour, kelp, whole herring, wheat gluten. Additives: Nutritional additives (per 1,000 g): Vitamin A (3a672a) 14.000 IE, vitamin C (3a312) 800 mg, vitamin E (3a700) 680 mg, niacin (3a314) 100 mg, inositol (3a900) 100 mg, vitamin B2 (3a825i) 20 mg, vitamin B12 50 μg. Sensory additives (per 1,000 g): Astaxanthin (2a161j) 15 mg
Also made with whole fish & shrimp, no meals, not a lot of carbs - also very good.
Either one of these would be a good choice. I’d never heard of this brand before but I’ll have to keep it in mind. It’s right up there with Northfin’s stuff, which I have liked since they first hit the market.
For example, Northfin’s Krill Gold contains 85% krill which is an exceptionally high level. Few foods tell you how much of any ingredient there is so the only clue is the fact that ingredients are listed in the order of how much there is of each. Krill Gold contains;
Whole Antarctic Krill Meal (Euphausia Superba), Wheat flour, Organic Kelp (Laminariales), Garlic (Allium Sativum), Spirulina (Dietary Supplement), Astaxanthin, Montmorillonite Clay, Vitamin A Acetate, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate, Cholecalciferol, Alpha-tocopherol Acetate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Niacin, Pantothenic Acid, Thiamine, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Biotin, Choline Chloride, Cobalt Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Selenium, Zinc, Rosemary Extract (Rosmarinus Officinalis)
You can see why I like this brand. Named whole meals ( they use rosemary extract to preserve them, not ethoxyquin) but the Oase Organic seems every bit as good. Nice find.
I mix and match so as not to feed the same food continually. I don't currently do live food, but that would be my preference. I use frozen, dehydrated, Repashy and dry. My fish all love PE Mysis. I recently ordered from Legit Fish food to give it a try as it looks to be very high quality. Their web site is informative too. I've probably fed more NLS than anything else over the years because it was readily available and highly recommended when I got started with fish keeping. I haven't tried Northfin, but it's on my shopping list because of the reasons Fishfur mentioned.
Random Great Topic!
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