Free Swimming German Blue Ram Fry...now What?

[PlainTofu]

Try adding a few fry back to the pair and see what the do .
The ' using a pipet to suck the fry up then spitting them out near the bottom ' could possibly be damaging them .
I see no need for two air stones either . One barely moving water is what I star fry out with .

I tried adding a few back to the pair but they would just eat it voraciously like food haha! I will stop using a pipet from now on. I'll take out one airstone hopefully that will help.

Update: Now that the fry is getting used to swimming I can see that about 3/4 of them are able to eat the SF BBS with orange bellies! From my count maybe 30-50 are full of BBS. Still hanging around the surface tho.

You're welcome. I dare to predict with a little irony: If you should at one point give up and move the fish to a regular tank to just keep and showcase them they suddenly breed successfully within two weeks.
Wouldn't be the first time it happens.

The pair are just in their own 20 gallons with a baby pleco happily eating and swimming together. I think I will let nature takes its course next time & putting an airstone nearby to help the pair with oxygenation and fungus prevention. From my observation, the spawns that I get the best hatch rate with is that using a small black flat rock. Using a flower pot saucer from home depot allows the female to lay eggs in a larger surface area making the male's job a lot harder. Having the eggs more clumped up in a tighter area is much better. Just my observation

 

[MacZ]

The pair are just in their own 20 gallons with a baby pleco happily eating and swimming together.

I meant when you should put them in a display tank with substrate, driftwood, more plants etc. eventually.

 

[coralbandit]

You're welcome. I dare to predict with a little irony: If you should at one point give up and move the fish to a regular tank to just keep and showcase them they suddenly breed successfully within two weeks.
Wouldn't be the first time it happens.

The spirit of competition often adds success to many breeders results .
I keep my pairs in separate tanks but right next to each other where they can see and 'mock defend' their territory .
I block view on the lower half of the tank but always feed where neighbors can see each other .

 

[Cale24]

Yeah, I've dug a bit since I last posted in your thread a few weeks ago. The domestic strains of not only GBRs but also some Apistos are becoming unable to care for their young, something simply first obeserved in GBRs, resulting in this becoming a thing firmly connected with them.
I would give it some more tries with the parents. This is a marathon, not a sprint.

If that doesn't work out your fish might be simply so overbred they don't produce completely viable (as in "surviving a certain stage", not as in "not fertile eggs") offspring.

Yup, local breeder I mentioned earlier in this thread doesn't attempt to breed any rams that don't show suitable paternal instincts, be it eating fry or not really caring enough.

I have a pair that spawned for the second time last week (ate their eggs first time round, two days after I added the female to the breeder tank) and the swimmers are on day 7 with the parents. This morning they spawned again and the fry are still being cared for, so it really can be luck of the draw I guess.

 

[PlainTofu]

Update: been over 3 weeks and I've been busy with work. One day I come back from work and I see wigglers and the very next day free swimmers! Saw that the female was hiding and distant from the male, soon after she was taking jabs at the fry eating them one by one. I finally netted her out and relocated her in another tank. Male is doing a good job keeping the fry huddled but I do see some fry wander off and exhibit the same behavior as artificially raising them (surface hugging). I fed them BBS and see that some of the fry are eating but not all. Is that concerning? Been 16 hrs since lift off. I turn off the filters when feeding to reduce flow, allowing the fry a better chance at eating. Having a patent around definitely solved the surface gathering issue that started this thread.

 

[coralbandit]

NICE !
Live BBS?
If not keep your bubbles going to give the food some movement ..
The fry don't know what food is .They learn to eat through aggression and attacking smaller life that moves ..
Once they realize what food is you can introduce artificial foods easier .
Females are the usual fry eaters .It is good you moved her as the male can sometimes kill the female for this .
It is probably why she was hiding .He had chased away and meant it

 

[PlainTofu]

NICE !
Live BBS?
If not keep your bubbles going to give the food some movement ..
The fry don't know what food is .They learn to eat through aggression and attacking smaller life that moves ..
Once they realize what food is you can introduce artificial foods easier .
Females are the usual fry eaters .It is good you moved her as the male can sometimes kill the female for this .
It is probably why she was hiding .He had chased away and meant it

Yes it is live BBS. I've been hatching baby brine shrimp every morning for the past two months. I'm sure you guys have been doing it for years haha!
Yea I've seen the female lose some scales an torn some fins... I wonder why she would eat the fry. The male is doing an excellent job at parenting.

 

[PlainTofu]

Couple questions:

When do I remove the dad?

How do I condition/train the fry from eating BBS to dry foods?

 

[coralbandit]

At 1-2 weeks eating the BBS you slowly mix in a very small prepared food with the BBS .
Many use Hikari first bites I like golden pearls 100 micron .
The dad can be gone at 2-3 weeks usually .

 

[Jack B Nimble]

I thought I would chime in on the fry grouping in the top corners once they are free swimming. I am certainly not coralbandit but, I have bred GBR in the thousands as well just to qualify my process. My solution was take a old dirty sponge filter from another tank and squeeze into a bucket just like when your cleaning them. Then take a turkey baster and suck the brown dirty water and gently spray into the fry that are congregating in their small groups. You will see them start to dart after microscopic foods like infusoria etc. I do this multiple times per day for the first 2 or 3 days from the bucket. If you shine a flashlight into the bucket water you will see the fog of organisms in the water column. This is an old breeder trick and if your a multi tank person we all have a dirty sponge in a tank somewhere plus making a culture of infusoria is stinky and not consistent. I also always start introducing to the fry after say 2 days some of the next foods they will be given such as egg yolk then brine shrimp then powdered growth foods. I do this while still feeding some of the prior food as well in the process it sort of graduates them in each phase. This also helps feed the smaller fry that are still eating the foods from the prior steps. There are other tricks but, I wanted to help you save some of those babies and it will for sure.

 

[Flyfisha]

hi all,
Post # 43 .
How to condition/ train the fry to recognise dry food as something to eat. ( paraphrased).

Start grinding up live baby brine into a paste with a small amount of fine dry fish food dust added.
It’s something I have done with other species of tiny fry anyway.

 

[PlainTofu]

I thought I would chime in on the fry grouping in the top corners once they are free swimming. I am certainly not coralbandit but, I have bred GBR in the thousands as well just to qualify my process. My solution was take a old dirty sponge filter from another tank and squeeze into a bucket just like when your cleaning them. Then take a turkey baster and suck the brown dirty water and gently spray into the fry that are congregating in their small groups. You will see them start to dart after microscopic foods like infusoria etc. I do this multiple times per day for the first 2 or 3 days from the bucket. If you shine a flashlight into the bucket water you will see the fog of organisms in the water column. This is an old breeder trick and if your a multi tank person we all have a dirty sponge in a tank somewhere plus making a culture of infusoria is stinky and not consistent. I also always start introducing to the fry after say 2 days some of the next foods they will be given such as egg yolk then brine shrimp then powdered growth foods. I do this while still feeding some of the prior food as well in the process it sort of graduates them in each phase. This also helps feed the smaller fry that are still eating the foods from the prior steps. There are other tricks but, I wanted to help you save some of those babies and it will for sure.

Thank you for the helpful tips! I can get the newly swimming fry to eat live BBS no problem with the dad. It's when I try to artificially hatch and raise them its when I see the grouping problem (see pictures above). Even if I squirt powdered food or something of the sort the fry rather huddle at the corner of the tank and not be interested in food. They eventually die off one by one from what I'm assuming is hunger. (5 spawns that I did artificially had the same results.)

hi all,
Post # 43 .
How to condition/ train the fry to recognize dry food as something to eat. ( paraphrased).

Start grinding up live baby brine into a paste with a small amount of fine dry fish food dust added.
It’s something I have done with other species of tiny fry anyway.

Thanks, I'll try that!
Update: All the fry are growing fast and strong with brine shrimp, bloodworms, and BBS. Trying to get them to eat flakes and pellets but it's hard since they are so picky! Treated the fry tank and the parents tank with some PraziPro since I noticed head shaking and flashing (flukes maybe?) Seems to have went away but appetite has definitely been lost. Surprised that even with PraziPro in the tank the parents decided to spawn again and 95% of them hatched! One thing I did realize is that using smaller flat rocks is better than using the flower pot saucers since the male has a better chance of fertilizing all the eggs because of a tight cluster rather than missing when he has a larger surface area! Will continue to update when the fry becoming free swimming. Hoping that the female doesn't turn rouge and eats the free swimmers. Currently, they are taking turns tending to the wigglers.

Mixed the last three spawns together and the first spawn rams are showing color!

 

[PlainTofu]

Update: The Blue ram fry are doing well with many water changes every week. Swapped them to a pellet diet with the starving and mixing different foods method. Last night got a batch of black ram eggs that I am trying to artificially hatch. Will post updates if I see the same huddling behavior or not since this is from a different strain. Hatching in a half gallon breeder box with few drops of HP to keep the fungus away. Hatching in my tap water which is around 350 TDS.

 

[PlainTofu]

Update: today fry are slowly starting to swim after consuming egg sac. Still witnessing huddling in the corner... Not sure why. Water levels are clean. Natural sunlight from window except when taking pictures. Fear that most will die just like before of starvation

 

[TClare]

Have you tried infusoria as suggested by Jack B Nimble, or squeezed hard boiled egg yolk the first few days? They might be too small for brine shrimp straight away?

I had a similar thing with Laetacara fry the first time I tried to rear them away from the parents. I first tried with liquifry and first bites, but no luck, they all gradually died over the next few days (actually one survived, though I didn't realize until much later!). The next time I gave them egg yolk, followed by BBS and they seem to be doing fine so far (just over 2 weeks free swimming), but when I try to give them first bites mixed with the BBS they spit it out!. I also have a few almond leaves decomposing in the tank.

 

[PlainTofu]

Have you tried infusoria as suggested by Jack B Nimble, or squeezed hard boiled egg yolk the first few days? They might be too small for brine shrimp straight away?

I had a similar thing with Laetacara fry the first time I tried to rear them away from the parents. I first tried with liquifry and first bites, but no luck, they all gradually died over the next few days (actually one survived, though I didn't realize until much later!). The next time I gave them egg yolk, followed by BBS and they seem to be doing fine so far (just over 2 weeks free swimming), but when I try to give them first bites mixed with the BBS they spit it out!. I also have a few almond leaves decomposing in the tank.

I have tried egg yolk and golden pearls which is dust pretty much. No luck. It's not that they aren't eating because the BBS is too big it's that they are huddling in the top corner not interested in any food at all. It's almost that they have no sense of direction since the parents are gone.

 

[coralbandit]

Even when I separate the fry from parents I keep them in a tank right next to each other so they can see and interact with each other ..

 

[TClare]

Well, yes it does make sense, the parents help to orient the fry and I know they help them to find food by mouthing the substrate and passing fine particles through their gills. Actually, until now I have only raised cichlid fry together with their parents and only separated the Laetacara fry because they have no chance of raising them in the community tank where the parents are. In fact the strange thing is the first time I tried I only got a few fry, and they did not huddle together, but instead all went separate directions and seemed to get lost. This time I got more, 30-40, and they all stayed together in a group for the first week or so. It is interesting though, because I know that many people,do raise cichlid fry away from the parents, and I have never heard of this issue before.

 

[PlainTofu]

Well, yes it does make sense, the parents help to orient the fry and I know they help them to find food by mouthing the substrate and passing fine particles through their gills. Actually, until now I have only raised cichlid fry together with their parents and only separated the Laetacara fry because they have no chance of raising them in the community tank where the parents are. In fact the strange thing is the first time I tried I only got a few fry, and they did not huddle together, but instead all went separate directions and seemed to get lost. This time I got more, 30-40, and they all stayed together in a group for the first week or so. It is interesting though, because I know that many people,do raise cichlid fry away from the parents, and I have never heard of this issue before.

I've also never heard of this issue before. I will try putting the parents in the tank next to them for some interaction next time! Most stopped huddling after me having to constantly suck them up / spitting them out near the group. More than half are eating BBS now

 

[PlainTofu]

Update: decided to let the parents take a go at raising the fry. Didn't do any funky business with water chemistry just changed with tap water. My tap is 350tds and pretty hard 7.5pH and 8GH. My goal was to keep it consistent instead of pursuing ideal conditions. And to my surprise a lot of the eggs were feritle. Watching the pair raise the fry together never gets old!

First batch of eggs from this pair are growing well. Can already distinguish black and gold Rams. Do you get half and half when breeding blacks?

 

[coralbandit]

Nice blacks ! Where di you get them ?
Until you can choose two blacks that carry the double black gene [ no way to see] you will get a mix of gold and black .

 

[PlainTofu]

Nice blacks ! Where di you get them ?
Until you can choose two blacks that carry the double black gene [ no way to see] you will get a mix of gold and black .

Thank you! They are from a local breeder in California Oakland.

 

[Lucy]

Oh wow, those are gorgeous fish!

 

[Racing1113]

Hello all,

I have two pairs of electric blue long fin rams and I'm trying to get fry from them. They've spawned twice the first time was uncessesscful. The second time I pulled the eggs and put them into a hatching container to hatch them myself. I used about 70% RO and the rest tank water to get my TDS to around 130 and my hatch rate was pretty good! (see pictures). Few days pass and the fry would continue to wiggle but unlike many others, my fry would take around 4 - 5 days to swim, and when they do they would all huddle at the very top corner of the tank and won't swim foraging for food. Sooner or later they would all continue to die off one by one eventually all of them. I've read on another forum that ram fry or rams, in general, are phototaxic? I have a pretty strong LED light above the tank and whenever I turn on the light the male would bully and chase the female. Once I turn the light off he would do a shimmy dance and be very friendly towards her. This is not a coincidence either since 10 out of 10 times he would act this way. I noticed the same thing with the ram fry, once I turned off the light the fry would start trying to swim towards the surface (this is when they were wigglers around day 2 from hatch).

Are you supposed to keep the lights on 24/7 when having fry in the tank? Maybe having day and night cycles really spooked the wigglers and when they start free swimming they had issues.

I did switch the fry to regular tap water which is around 300TDS after they hatched. Didn't think they would need the RO water after fertilization. Is this my problem?

I'm thinking about letting the next spawn be parent raised. What do you guys think? I heard rams are very poor parents thus I tried to artificially hatch them.

I feed my ram fry vinegar eels for a few days before switching them to bbs. I have a very good survival rate