Befuddled by ammonia

[Tezzy]

I’d appreciate any help - I’ve been struggling to figure out what’s going on in my tank.

A few days ago, I noticed a sudden change - all my platies were at the top gasping for air and my cories were sluggish. I could literally smell the ammonia - measured it and it was 2ppm. I did a big water change, started using Prime, and stuck an ammonia reducing media bag in my filter. I lost one of my darling panda cories initially, but several days later, everyone else is still holding on.

This happened soon after I did a cleaning and gravel vac to put in some new plants. I also replaced one layer of the filter. I thought perhaps I killed my cycle? I searched through all the rocks and plants and such and didn’t find any obvious ammonia producers. I can’t think what else could have caused this. My tank is a 20L and has been cycled for about a year.

I just finished yet another water change to bring the ammonia down and now it’s at 0.50 ppm ammonia, 0 nitrite, and 5.0 nitrate. What’s perplexing me is the ph is down at 6.0. My tap water is at about 8.4 and all the driftwood, etc usually brings it close to neutral. How is it swinging that low? I need some water chemistry 101, obviously.

I also just threw in some Stability in case it’s a matter of needing to rebuild the cycle, although I am still getting nitrate...so I’m starting to doubt that theory. Just so confused and not sure what else to do. While my fish are still alive, they are clearly not happy with me.

 

[GuppyGal7]

Wow, that is very strange indeed... One thing that concerns me is your stocking. 10 gallon is on the small side for platys and panda corys. Can you please list all the inhabitants of your tank? I have no answer for your pH, but I will say at lower pHs, ammonia is less harmful (still harmful), but that's likely how your fish managed to survive such a spike. Keep dosing Stability and try to do daily water changes. When cleaning, you may have come across a large pocket of waste and released it into the water column which could be responsible for the spike. When doing water changes, religiously vacuum your substrate to remove any waste.

 

[Flyfisha]

Hey Tezzy,
You tossed out some of your bacteria when you replaced one layer of the filter.
You tossed a very small amount when you did a clean.
You removed a very small amount when you did a gravel vacuum.

I doubt you have killed the cycle but you are going though a mini cycle as the numbers grow quickly back to what they were .

When a tank is cycling or in your case going through a mini cycle it is normal for the PH to swing wildly. That is not something you can or should do anything about.

Doing multiple small (40%) temperature matched conditioned water changes a few days a
art will not effect the bacteria if you do not clean any hard surfaces.

Wait a fortnight or more before you even begin to clean just the front panel of glass.

 

[LowConductivity]

If you can swing your tap water from 8.something to 7 with driftwood, it would seem you’ve got nil carbonate hardness.

nitrifying bacteria require 7ppm of carbonate hardness for every 1ppm of ammonia they convert.

the toxic level of “ammonia” at a pH of 6, is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 20ppm.

I’d be inclined to think there’s something else at play here.

 

[Tezzy]

Hi all - first off, thank you so much for the replies. This community is wonderful.

I’m inept at using quotes on this small phone, so apologies for referring to you guys directly...

Karen - sorry, I meant a 20 gallon long! But in any case, my stocking is fairly high - I have 5 platies (aka poop factories), 6 panda cories, 3 otos, and 2 ADFs.

Fly - great advice, thank you. The ammonia is up to 1.0ppm this morning. Everyone is happy and eating, but making frequent trips to the surface for air. I’ll add more prime and stability, and should I still wait on a water change?

Low - I picked up a carbonate hardness test (the more information the better). I’ve never paid attention to this before, so thank you for the explanation. It took “3 drops” to convert the color, which looks like 0-50ppm. Do I need to do anything about that?

Happy to measure other parameters - just trying to figure this out :-(

 

[ProudPapa]

. . . Wait a fortnight or more before you even begin to clean just the front panel of glass.

Where's fortnight on the calculator? ;-)

 

[Coradee]

Where's fortnight on the calculator? ;-)

Psst! A fortnight is two weeks

 

[Flyfisha]

A serious situation Tezzy.
Any ammonia is toxic. Making frequent trips to the surface is a warning sign.
Changing water will not slow down the growth of bacteria as long as you don’t clean or move hard surfaces you should change some water every time you have ammonia in a test. Replace water with temperature matched conditioned water. I suggest not changing more than 45% at one time . I am happy to change water ever 4 hours on my tanks. That can be more than once per day. I am just saying changing some water often is ALWAYS a good thing.

I repeat do not clean the glass for as long as you can stand looking at it .

 

[Tezzy]

A serious situation Tezzy.
Any ammonia is toxic. Making frequent trips to the surface is a warning sign.
Changing water will not slow down the growth of bacteria as long as you don’t clean or move hard surfaces you should change some water every time you have ammonia in a test. Replace water with temperature matched conditioned water. I suggest not changing more than 45% at one time . I am happy to change water ever 4 hours on my tanks. That can be more than once per day. I am just saying changing some water often is ALWAYS a good thing.

I repeat do not clean the glass for as long as you can stand looking at it .

Sounds good and makes sense. I’ll do a water change now and will continue to monitor/change the water until I’ve reestablished tank harmony. I’m all for scummy glass and rocks as long as my fish are happy and alive ;-)

 

[Tezzy]

I’m still battling this mini cycle! My daily water changes and Prime are keeping everything pretty stable at ~1 ppm ammonia, 0 nitrite, and variable low levels of nitrate. The ph continues to be low. In fact, since the API master kit bottomed out at 6.0, I suspected my ph would be even lower. So I got one of these seachem gauge things, and it would appear ph is even below 5.4? I’m continuously adding small amounts of ph up, but that doesn’t seem to improve things. I have a bag of crushed coral being delivered today, and will add that into the filter. Is there anything else I’m missing? I still haven’t lost any more fish, but they are really not happy - lots of time at the top, and a couple have developed white tips on their fins (which I assume is acid burn). All but the otos - acid agrees with them lol - I’ve never seen them happier and more social.

 

[jtjgg]

you are in an emergency situation with the pH that low, the yellow in the center actually looks a bit lighter than 5.4, so technically the tank water might be lower. you can use a little bit of baking soda for now. don't add a bunch all at once, gradually add a little over the course of the day.

when you test the pH of the tap, did you let it sit overnight in a bucket or cup/bowl to let it gas off?

you should get a GH/KH test and see what the levels actually are.

 

[Tezzy]

when you test the pH of the tap, did you let it sit overnight in a bucket or cup/bowl to let it gas off?

you should get a GH/KH test and see what the levels actually are.

I did not let the tap water sit out - I just measured it straight out. I’ll set a cup out so I can read it tomorrow.

As for the KH/GH - I do have a test and I check that as soon as I log off of work. You mean for the aquarium water, correct?

 

[jtjgg]

both the aquarium water and tap water. we need to see how much carbonate you start out with in the tap water and see how much is consumed in the aquarium afterwards.

 

[Tezzy]

Ok, kH is 1 drop - which looks like 17.9 if I’m reading this chart correctly. But I assume that’s really 0. GH was 4 drops, or 71.6ppm.

both the aquarium water and tap water. we need to see how much carbonate you start out with in the tap water and see how much is consumed in the aquarium afterwards.

Gotcha - I’ll test the tap water for all three tomorrow. Currently sitting out. Many thanks!

I did add the crushed coral to the filter - I hope that’s a good move

 

[Tezzy]

Making some progress today. Ph is up to 6.6 on the master kit, and looks like 5.8 on the Alert. I’m inclined to trust the master kit, but in either case, it’s increased. The kH is at 2 drops, and I ran out of test tubes for GH. I redo both of those later when I test the tap water. Should I do a water change for the ammonia at 1 ppm, or let it ride? The tank is all primed up and the fish seem much happier. The poop factory platies are back to what they do best...

 

[Tezzy]

both the aquarium water and tap water. we need to see how much carbonate you start out with in the tap water and see how much is consumed in the aquarium afterwards.

Ok, the tap ph is 7.4-7.6, kH is 3 drops, and GH is 4 drops. KH in the tank water was 1 drop yesterday, but now 2 drops after adding the crushed coral. GH in the tank is still 4 drops.

ph is the tank is still doing well, measuring 6.6-6.8 with the addition of the coral. Will this help kick start the cycle and then resolve the ph over time, or should I be looking to keep crushed coral going all the time? My ph was around neutral prior to this mini cycle.

 

[Flyfisha]

Sounds good Tezzy. Those are all good signs.

You ask about wither or not to do a water change.
A small temperature matched conditioned water change never did any harm . Without meaning to overload you with information as the PH increases the ammonia becomes more toxic. This is a chart on the relationship between ammonia temperature and PH in relation to how toxic ammonia is at a certain PH and temperature.
Regardless a small water change is a good idea in my opinion.
Only time will tell if the crushed coral needs to be in the tank forever. I suspect so?

 

[Tezzy]

Thanks both.

The ph chart is fascinating. So it wasn’t the 2.0 ammonia that killed my Cory, it was more likely the low ph?

I did a water change, ammonia is now down at 0.5, so that seems to be going down or at least holding steady. Now that I seem to be out of the emergency zone, this is actually quite interesting to observe the dynamics of the water parameters. Thanks for the education and support - much appreciated.

 

[Tezzy]

I’m not sure if anyone is still watching this, but just an update and new challenge. Things are cycling nicely - it took a while to stabilize the ph, and now nitrites seem to be spiking. Last measurements after a water change are ammonia 0.5, nitrite 0.25, nitrate 5, kH 3 drops. I predict ammonia will double and nitrite will 3x or 4x by morning. Fish are doing fine, even producing fry (as if I need more bio load). The problem is, after every 50% water change I get a full bacterial bloom - to the point it’s tough to see the fish. It clears within a few hours, but is leaving an unsightly white coating on everything after 5 or 6 times of this - and I’m sure the fish don’t love it. Anything I can do to avoid the bacteria blooms?

 

[Flyfisha]

I am baffled by the bacterial bloom after each water change and how it clears so quickly, unless it’s just mulm thats stirred up by the water change?
The white coating does that just float away if you run your hand past it?

Are you by chance still removing one layer of the filter at any time? I don’t understand how the bacteria is not back to the numbers needed to consume all ammonia and nitrites?
What filter/ filters do you have in the ten with the live bearers? It would seem there are not enough places for bacteria to safety grow?

 

[notamermaid]

Are you sure it's bacteria or could it be sediment from the coral? And you can add aquarium salt to reduce the toxicity of the nitrites.

 

[Tezzy]

I’m pretty sure it’s a bacterial bloom. The tank is clear after the water change, but then the “bloom” develops over the following hour or so. Here’s a picture of it helps - this is about 3 hours after the water change, so things are starting to clear up. It’s definitely not sediment as I’m doing most water changes w/o a gravel vac and the white film needs to be rubbed off the plants, glass, etc.

The filter is an aqua clear 50 with the standard foam/bio layers and the charcoal replaced by an ammonia reducer. I also have some crushed coral in a mesh bag in there, I haven’t replaced any of the layers since this debacle started, just a rinsing of the foam layer (with aquarium water).

 

[Tezzy]

Definitely going through the nitrite spike. This morning is 1.0 ammonia, 2(?) nitrite, and 5 nitrate. Also pictures of the tank post-water change last night (cloudy), and this morning (clear). Also a close up of the white gunk that collects everywhere during the bloom - it almost looks like hair algae, but it’s pasty. Going to do another water change now. I hope I’m getting somewhere :-(

 

[notamermaid]

Could it actully be algae & the white stuff/dust/bacteria is just sticking to it? Does the white come out of the filter or does it appear when you pour the water in? Does it appear gradually or suddenly? I think it might be something (a mineral maybe) precipitating out of the water column or you are stirring up dust. Can you add the water really gently one water change (pour it onto a plate maybe) & another water change wait a few minutes before turning the filter on? It might help you get more information about the origin of the cloud.

 

[Tezzy]

Could it actully be algae & the white stuff/dust/bacteria is just sticking to it? Does the white come out of the filter or does it appear when you pour the water in? Does it appear gradually or suddenly? I think it might be something (a mineral maybe) precipitating out of the water column or you are stirring up dust. Can you add the water really gently one water change (pour it onto a plate maybe) & another water change wait a few minutes before turning the filter on? It might help you get more information about the origin of the cloud.

It could certainly be the crud sticking to algae. It sticks to the glass and filter in a thin white film. Whatever it is, the otos like, because they are super fat and happy.

The water is clear after the water change, and the cloud gradually builds over the next hour or so. Then it starts subsiding a few hours later. The film on all the surfaces stays. It actually clogged up my filter yesterday and I had to go in and unclog the impeller and rinse the sponge, because both were filled with the pasty white stuff. I do think it’s being created in the water and then sucked into the filter, not the other way around. But I could be wrong.
I will try both suggestions with the next WCs. Goodness knows I’ll be doing plenty of them with the nitrite spiking...

thank you!

 

[Tezzy]

...and finally fully cycled!!!!!! From start to finish, it took a little over 6 weeks. Just a data point in case anyone finds this thread later on. My tank is fully stocked, so that’s likely why it took so long. I’m proud to say I didn’t lose a single fish wte of the first panda Cory that clued me into the ammonia issue. Lots of Prime and lots of patience!