Are all blackwater fish tropical

Ghelfaire

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I've recently come into posession of a lot of Indian almond leaves (way cheaper to buy in bulk) and am planning on doing a blackwater biotope in an empty 20g I have.

My question is: are all blackwater fish tropical?
 

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A lot of them are. But Livebearars are not (if you consider them tropical) They like harder water with more minerals. So I would say that keep away from them.

Which fish are you talking about (so I can get a clearer idea) :)
 

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  • #3
Very specifically talking about fish that live in a blackwater environment in the wild.
 
Well, that question can be taken many ways, but we need to define what 'blackwater' is.

In short, it is pretty much a tannin saturated location stream/river with relatively low flow.

By that definition, it would be hard to say that these types of systems are only in tropical areas, which, surprise, they aren't.

An example close to home for me is the Ocqueoc River, or the Tahquamenan River. Both are considered 'blackwater' due to their slower flow and heavy concentration of tannins (according to wikipedia).

As for temps here, I have seen snow in June, 70F and sunny on Christmas Day, 120F in July, and -35F in February. I call it the Bipolar State, where you can quite literally experience 4 seasons in one day. Come april its 35F at 7am, but by 1pm its 80F out, I am literally not kidding. Pretty much as far from topical as possible.

Now the fish in these rivers are basically the same as all the other rivers and lakes. Muskellunge, Pike, Bass, Bluegills, Shad, Crappie, etc.

You could consider them blackwater I suppose, but people with well water here say its so hard the common term is 'Liquid Rock' (Like GH-18+ and KH-18+).

The truth is that most fish are very adaptable and living in a pH of 6.5 vs 7 vs 7.5 or 8 really doesn't matter too much. The major reason is stability.

Most fish could do blackwater conditions, but I would avoid those who really need the extra electrolytes to thrive, like cichlids, livebearers, puffers, etc.
 
Well, that question can be taken many ways, but we need to define what 'blackwater' is.

In short, it is pretty much a tannin saturated location stream/river with relatively low flow.

By that definition, it would be hard to say that these types of systems are only in tropical areas, which, surprise, they aren't.

An example close to home for me is the Ocqueoc River, or the Tahquamenan River. Both are considered 'blackwater' due to their slower flow and heavy concentration of tannins (according to wikipedia).

As for temps here, I have seen snow in June, 70F and sunny on Christmas Day, 120F in July, and -35F in February. I call it the Bipolar State, where you can quite literally experience 4 seasons in one day. Come april its 35F at 7am, but by 1pm its 80F out, I am literally not kidding. Pretty much as far from topical as possible.

Now the fish in these rivers are basically the same as all the other rivers and lakes. Muskellunge, Pike, Bass, Bluegills, Shad, Crappie, etc.

You could consider them blackwater I suppose, but people with well water here say its so hard the common term is 'Liquid Rock' (Like GH-18+ and KH-18+).

The truth is that most fish are very adaptable and living in a pH of 6.5 vs 7 vs 7.5 or 8 really doesn't matter too much. The major reason is stability.

Most fish could do blackwater conditions, but I would avoid those who really need the extra electrolytes to thrive, like cichlids, livebearers, puffers, etc.
Totally agree with this lol. I should have gone more in depth!!

Although the dwarf cichlid, Apistogrammas like blackwater so if your set on a cichlid, there is an option
 
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  • #6
Zach, not helpful. I know what blackwater is.
I didn't realize my question was difficult to understand.
Is there a list of blackwater fish that
1: can be found in an aquarium store
2: that fit in a 20g
3: that aren't tropical?
Although the dwarf cichlid, Apistogrammas like blackwater so if your set on a cichlid, there is an option
Cool I didn't know that, Google keeps mentioning tetras and bettas
 

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Zach, not helpful. I know what blackwater is.
I didn't realize my question was difficult to understand.
Is there a list of blackwater fish that
1: can be found in an aquarium store
2: that fit in a 20g
3: that aren't tropical?

Cool I didn't know that, Google keeps mentioning tetras and bettas
I think its the term ‘tropical’ that may have confused things. Presumably you are just after a list of fish that may/can live in coldwater blackwater environments, that could fit in a 20? I cant think of any off the top of my head that would meet that criteria but im sure MacZ may be able to help - he knows a thing or two about blackwater.

if you were after a tropical blackwater set up there are loads of options for a 20 - apistos, pencilfish etc.
 
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  • #8
I think its the term ‘tropical’ that may have confused things. Presumably you are just after a list of fish that may/can live in coldwater blackwater environments, that could fit in a 20? I cant think of any off the top of my head that would meet that criteria but im sure MacZ may be able to help - he knows a thing or two about blackwater.

if you were after a tropical blackwater set up there are loads of options for a 20 - apistos, pencilfish etc.
Yeah I was using "tropical" in the needs an aquarium temperature of 75-80f sense.
I just wanted to try a tank with less equipment sticking out. Plus I've never kept cooler water fish and wanted to see if any would fit in with this tank setup.
 
1: can be found in an aquarium store
2: that fit in a 20g
3: that aren't tropical?

I'm going backwards here:
Nontropical: Yes, possible.
Small enough for a 20: Yes, still possible.
Found in the trade: Ooof.

The closest would be Flagfish from the Everglades, but that can almost be counted as tropical.

The further you go away from the Equator, the less blackwater rivers you will find, most outside the tropical zone are located in the South East of the US. There are NONE in Europe, none that I heard of in temperate and northern Asia either. In South America there are little to none south of northern Argentina and none west of the Andes. In Africa there are also none south of the Congo basin. Australia has some in the East.
That limits blackwater mostly to South America, Central and Western Africa, South and South East Asia, South-Eastern US and Eastern Australia. And except the US all of them are tropical regions.

Well, that question can be taken many ways, but we need to define what 'blackwater' is.

No, we don't. The definition is clear: Extremely poor in minerals and nutrients with a low pH. TDS 0-20mg/l, EC 0-40 µSi/cm, pH 4-6. That is all. Extreme examples with pH below 4 are peat bogs in Indonesia and Malaysia, that can go as low as 2.5 pH. I myself keep my tank's readings between the readings of black- and clearwater. TDS < 40, EC < 80, pH < 6.0.
Flow and tannin-saturation are not part of the definition.

In the hobbyist sense you can only divide between true blackwater (parameters like in/close to the wild) and faux blackwater (tinted tapwater).

If a river is called blackwater that doesn't match the chemical parameters, the term blackwater is only used colloqually.

Although the dwarf cichlid, Apistogrammas like blackwater so if your set on a cichlid, there is an option

Apistogramma borellii could live in non-tropical temperatures (There are reports of them being caught in as low temp as 13°C in Paraguay depending on the season.), but they are not blackwater. They are clearwater.
 
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  • #10
So nothing in the minnow, paradise fish or cooler water loach department.

If I just did tinted water instead of a true blackwater aquarium would that bump my options up to anything else?
 
If I just did tinted water instead of a true blackwater aquarium would that bump my options up to anything else?

Yep, the tint alone has no influence on the water chemistry. The only difference would be the colour and the fact that your choices in plants might be reduced to low light species.
 

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  • #12
Good to know, I only keep lowlight species of plants anyway.
I might just do that then.
 
That limits blackwater mostly to South America, Central and Western Africa, South and South East Asia, South-Eastern US and Eastern Australia. And except the US all of them are tropical regions.

There are a few Blackwater rivers in Tasmania that run through temperate rainforests or peat bogs. I’m not aware of any aquarium fish available from those areas though.
 
There are a few Blackwater rivers in Tasmania that run through temperate rainforests or peat bogs. I’m not aware of any aquarium fish available from those areas though.

I forgot Tasmania is temperate, you're right!
I neither know of any fish from there available...
 
Zach, not helpful. I know what blackwater is.
I didn't realize my question was difficult to understand.
Is there a list of blackwater fish that
1: can be found in an aquarium store
2: that fit in a 20g
3: that aren't tropical?

Apologies, you didn't really define those other questions within your original post. I did go down a rabbit hole and it was about 4 am so I may have gotten off the beaten path lol.

When you say aren't tropical, what temperatures do you really mean? Are you talking like really cold, or are you just planning on keeping a tank room temp?

I do like how MacZ did define blackwater as being a hobbiest sense "True vs Faux Blackwater". That does really define things much better than I did.
 
Apologies, you didn't really define those other questions within your original post. I did go down a rabbit hole and it was about 4 am so I may have gotten off the beaten path lol.

Now you know how I often feel. When you all start to be really active here, it's already between midnight and 1 am where I live. :D
 
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  • #17
No problem, I have a bad habit of thinking people know what I mean based off of the limited information I give them.

The aquarium is in the basement I would have to do a test to see what the lowest temperature it drops to. Depending on the results I'm thinking of anything that can survive in colder water. If I had room upstairs the lowest temperature would be 70f so if I HAD to guess I would say around 65f
 
So nothing in the minnow, paradise fish or cooler water loach department.

If I just did tinted water instead of a true blackwater aquarium would that bump my options up to anything else?
Are you saying you are not interested in Paradise fish? If I misunderstood, you could keep a pair. They can be kept in blackwater and like cooler temps. I knew an aquarist here in the Netherlands who keeps them in an outdoor pond all year-round. That didn't work for me. I bought some from him and they lasted through the summer. (This was about 10 years ago.)
 
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  • #19
Are you saying you are not interested in Paradise fish? If I misunderstood, you could keep a pair. They can be kept in blackwater and like cooler temps. I knew an aquarist here in the Netherlands who keeps them in an outdoor pond all year-round. That didn't work for me. I bought some from him and they lasted through the summer. (This was about 10 years ago.)
No, no I'm interested but there was a long list of places and I was just trying to clarify if I could keep either fish.
 
I actually found a fish that might work for you. They can be hard to get sometimes, but very nice looking.

The Rainbow Shiner or Notropis chrosomus

Coldwater, pretty non-particular when it comes to water chemistry, and very nice looking.

Also, various types of darters. With darters, don't bother looking to buy them honestly (you can, but they are expensive and hard to find). Go down to the local river and check out the sand beds. It sounds really weird, but they are very common. I just saw like 50+ today at the local river. Thinking about nabbing some up for myself.
 
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  • #21
I see rainbow shiners often at big al's, kind of expensive but they are beautiful. I'll have to wait until stores open again (not a fan of curbside pickup on live animals).
I also need to set the tank up first.
 

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The Rainbow Shiner or Notropis chrosomus

Aren't those needing some current and swimming space? 20 seems too small somehow.
 
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  • #23
Aren't those needing some current and swimming space? 20 seems too small somehow.
Apparently they only get 5-8cm so a 20g should be fine for a small group. I can also adjust the filter to be a bit stronger too if needed.
 
Apparently they only get 5-8cm so a 20g should be fine for a small group. I can also adjust the filter to be a bit stronger too if needed.

I know the size, that doesn't matter actually, there are a lot of small fish with enormous space requirements. I find a 20 a bit short for them. Is it a high or a long?
 
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  • #25
High. Is there another type of minnow that would work better or are paradise gourami my best bet?
 
I have not much experience with minnows, honestly. Macropodus might really be the most interesting fish for that tank.
 
I have not much experience with minnows, honestly. Macropodus might really be the most interesting fish for that tank.
The Paradise fish, (the kind I had was Macropodus opercularis) needs a lot more space than 20 liter. It is, imo, too territorial and aggressive to keep with tankmates. It is a stunning fish, with interesting behavior (like all Anabantidae). I'm too lazy to google, but if I remember correctly, it was the first aquarium fish. (My memory could be faulty.)

)
 
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  • #28
The Paradise fish, (the kind I had was Macropodus opercularis) needs a lot more space than 20 liter. It is, imo, too territorial and aggressive to keep with tankmates. It is a stunning fish, with interesting behavior (like all Anabantidae). I'm too lazy to google, but if I remember correctly, it was the first aquarium fish. (My memory could be faulty.)

)

My tank is 20 gallons which would be about 75 liters
 
Sorry. I read that yesterday, but my brain is Euro-set today, lol.
 
I came across a cold water blackwater fish a little while ago but I can't remember the name now. Ugh.

It was available locally so I looked into it... iirc it was very rare so probably wouldn't help even if I did remember the name

EDIT: FOUND THEM! Jae Barbs
 
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  • #32
I came across a cold water blackwater fish a little while ago but I can't remember the name now. Ugh.

It was available locally so I looked into it... iirc it was very rare so probably wouldn't help even if I did remember the name

EDIT: FOUND THEM! Jae Barbs
My lfs has had some odd fish in stock, I'll keep an eye out for them
 
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