Wild vs captive bred cardinal tetras

[KribensisLover1]

Hello!

I go to a few fish stores in my local area. One has been around forever and sold me non aquatic plants. One sold me balloon rams. You get the idea. None are perfect which is to be expected. Anyway I’m about to stock my 26 gallon flatback hex with cardinal tetras. It’s black background and Amazonia Ada version 2 substrate (so also dark) with a gorgeous stone and wood and then plants. That’s it. Sooo I was deciding what fish would pop the best and I was between neons and cardinal tetras and bgarthe convinced me to get cardinal tetras. I would like to get as many as 25 of them or as many as I can and either nothing else or 5–6 small Cories. ANYWAY I was at the one store yesterday and they had some stunning wild caught cardinal tetras. My tank isn’t finished cycling so I was not buying but they were $7 a pop. clearly a lot more than captive bred CT’s. My ph is 6.4 so it’s great for wild caught.
The thing is, I really want them to pop against the background of my tank and read wild caught have much better and brighter coloring. Is this true? What are the advantages and or disadvantages to buying wild cardinal tetras (not other types but the cardinal tetras specifically). I mean 25 X 7 is a Lot of money compared to what the captive cost but it’s. One time cost that I am happy to pay if they’re far more beautiful. It’ll be the showpiece so I’m happy to do it IF they really are better. If not then forget it! And of course I want to make sure I get healthy fish. TY!!!!!!!!

 

[bgarthe]

With your lower pH (6.4) than mine which is 7.8, you can surely go with Wild CTs. I would suggest that you buy from a seller/store that has had them for a while and I would check the store pH to see that their pH is in the same area as yours.
My main reason for encouragement Tank Raised CTs is more for their being accustomed to harder water parameters their whole life and for the slight increased risk (with Wild caught CTs) of internal parasites.

Some claim coloring is better with Wild, but the Tank ones are pretty darn gorgeous imho.

Be sure to post pics.

 

[KribensisLover1]

With your lower pH (6.4) than mine which is 7.8, you can surely go with Wild CTs. I would suggest that you buy from a seller/store that has had them for a while and I would check the store pH to see that their pH is in the same area as yours.
My main reason for encouragement Tank Raised CTs is more for their being accustomed to harder water parameters their whole life and for the slight increased risk (with Wild caught CTs) of internal parasites.

Some claim coloring is better with Wild, but the Tank ones are pretty darn gorgeous imho.

Be sure to post pics.

Will do! And Thank You!! It will be a little while, my cycle is a joke but I finally went from the darker ammonia to the bottom which is a tiny bit lighter (the newest have the handwritten word today on them).
Which is basically almost nothing but huge for me.

Also I don’t like the idea and have never wanted to buy wild caught fish. I felt bad they were snatched from their homes. Any merit to that?

 

[A201]

If you decide to buy the wild caught fish, it would be a good idea to deworm them

Prazipro is my choice for a preventative dewormer.

 

[KribensisLover1]

If you decide to buy the wild caught fish, it would be a good idea to deworm them

Prazipro is my choice for a preventative dewormer.

Well I was shocked to learn most CT’s ARE wild caught! Maybe that’s older info though.

 

[chromedome52]

Cardinal Tetras are one of the most sustainable fisheries in Brazil. They collect them not long after their breeding season, when waters are high and food is plentiful. When the dry season arrives, most of these fish would die off naturally as the forest dries up. The survivors then grow up to become next season's breeders. Check out Project Piaba for more details.

The risk of parasites from wild caught is minimal due to the environment these fish come from. There is greater risk of disease with commercially bred fish, as they are crowded into less than perfect conditions and often treated with prophylactic medications that weaken their immune systems. This is especially well known from the Neons we get from the Eastern breeders.

I don't think there are that many captive bred Cardinals being produced. It is far more economical to import the wild collected fish. Higher prices using the "wild caught" labelling is simply deceptive practices. However, if you can find a hobbyist/fish breeder who has bred them, I would use those for breeding as they are adapted to living in a controlled environment. They may survive in a higher pH, but you still need to get below 6.0 to breed them.

 

[Gnop1950]

Well I was shocked to learn most CT’s ARE wild caught! Maybe that’s older info though.

I'm not sure about LFS, but I know one of my favorite online vendors, Dan's Fish, has tank-bred and raised CTs. They are kind of pricey at $9.99 each and are used to pretty hard water. Dan says his tanks are at 8.3 pH and about 300 TDS, but says customers with soft water haven't reported any issues.

After my sole abysmal experience with neon tetras and my only LFS, PetSmart, I'd likely go with an aquarium-bred and raised fish. A lot/most of the tetras I looked at on Dan's site today are aquarium-raised and bred. I don't know how many other online vendors offer aquarium-bred and raised CTs but there has to be others.

 

[KribensisLover1]

I'm not sure about LFS, but I know one of my favorite online vendors, Dan's Fish, has tank-bred and raised CTs. They are kind of pricey at $9.99 each and are used to pretty hard water. Dan says his tanks are at 8.3 pH and about 300 TDS, but says customers with soft water haven't reported any issues.

After my sole abysmal experience with neon tetras and my only LFS, PetSmart, I'd likely go with an aquarium-bred and raised fish. A lot/most of the tetras I looked at on Dan's site today are aquarium-raised and bred. I don't know how many other online vendors offer aquarium-bred and raised CTs but there has to be others.

I wonder how soft they can go bc my tank as of now is 6.4
My TAP is way higher to when my cycle is finished I could be at 7.4–7.6.

 

[Gnop1950]

I wonder how soft they can go bc my tank as of now is 6.4
My TAP is way higher to when my cycle is finished I could be at 7.4–7.6.

For CTs, really any fish, stability is IMO more important than exact numbers when it comes to pH. If you choose to try fish from a particular vendor, I'd email them and ask.

I know my 90-gallon is around 7.0-7.2 pH, and all the fish came from Dan's.

A lot depends on your goal. If you use tap water for your water changes, the pH will rise based on the pH of your tap water. I'm not sure how fast.

I'd wait to add fish until your pH is stable for a while. pH is logarithmic, so a change from 6.4 to 7.4 is a pretty big swing, going from slightly acidic to slightly alkaline.

You can slowly acclimate fish to different pH values, but if you think there are going to be large, relatively fast pH swings, I'd probably wait to add fish until the pH is pretty stable.

pH in home aquariums is a good read.

 

[Mudminnow]

I've read that buying wild caught Cardinal Tetras creates an economic incentive for people in South America to conserve their native habitats. Currently, that's enough reason for me to opt for wild caught.

I've kept both captive bred and wild caught Cardinal Tetras and haven't noticed a big difference in hardiness or color.

Some sites, like The Wet Spot, give you the option to buy Tank Raised (presumably captive bred) or wild caught Cardinal Tetras. They even identify if the Cardinal Tetras for sale are from Brazil or Colombia. The prices are similar for all.

 

[Gnop1950]

I've read that buying wild caught Cardinal Tetras creates an economic incentive for people in South America to conserve their native habitats. Currently, that's enough reason for me to opt for wild caught.

I've kept both captive bred and wild caught Cardinal Tetras and haven't noticed a big difference in hardiness or color.

Some sites, like The Wet Spot, give you the option to buy Tank Raised (presumably captive bred) or wild caught Cardinal Tetras. They even identify if the Cardinal Tetras for sale are from Brazil or Colombia. The prices are similar for all.

From what I've read, there are only a very few programs like that. The only one I could find is Project Piaba in Brazil, along the Rio Negro, although I'm sure there are others. Since that is a major fishery for CTs, there is a chance that wild-caught come from that program.

If I could be guaranteed that my fish came from Project Piaba or a similar program, I'd consider it, but not every CT, even from Brazil, comes from those programs. However, only if the supplier did their own quarantine, or I was set up to do quarantine myself, would I consider buying wild-caught.

My personal preference for fresh and saltwater is captive-bred, as I know that captive-bred has minimal impact on the wild populations.

 

[Mudminnow]

My personal preference for fresh and saltwater is captive-bred, as I know that captive-bred has minimal impact on the wild populations.

Fair enough. I just worry that unless there's an economic incentive to protect something, people will eventually destroy it in an effort to feed their families some other way.

 

[KribensisLover1]

I've read that buying wild caught Cardinal Tetras creates an economic incentive for people in South America to conserve their native habitats. Currently, that's enough reason for me to opt for wild caught.

I've kept both captive bred and wild caught Cardinal Tetras and haven't noticed a big difference in hardiness or color.

Some sites, like The Wet Spot, give you the option to buy Tank Raised (presumably captive bred) or wild caught Cardinal Tetras. They even identify if the Cardinal Tetras for sale are from Brazil or Colombia. The prices are similar for all.

So I am looking on the site and I wonder
**they do in fact have the Brazilian caught and Colombian caught CT’s. Wny Are the Brazil CT’s more expensive? They are $5.99 for the XS and the Columbian are $4.99 (or $5.99 for the larger size). What’s funny is the larger Brazilian ones are also $5.99, so there’s no increase in price for an increased sizing?

 

[Mudminnow]

So I am looking on the site and I wonder
**they do in fact have the Brazilian caught and Colombian caught CT’s. Wny Are the Brazil CT’s more expensive? They are $5.99 for the XS and the Columbian are $4.99 (or $5.99 for the larger size). What’s funny is the larger Brazilian ones are also $5.99, so there’s no increase in price for an increased sizing?

Yeah, I'd guess it has more to do with availability than random pricing, but I don't know.

 

[chromedome52]

First, 6.6 is not a hardness, it is pH, and while softer water tends to have a lower pH, it is not a dependable indicator. And Cardinals still need lower pH than 6.0 to breed but live just fine at 7.6.

Second, hardness itself tends to be more important with Cardinals, as those raised in water above 100ppm TDS may never spawn. There is a very old book, Spawning Problem Fishes by Willy Jocher (2 volumes), that details very carefully the requirements of certain species, and Cardinals are one of the most exacting. If you can find these books, the information within is still better than most of what you find on the internet. I foolishly sold mine, and prices for used copies are ridiculous.

Incidentally, this is the source that mentions that Neons live and breed at much lower temperatures than Cardinals. This information seems to have gotten lost in the early stages of the internet.

I do not have enough information on Colombian (Orinoco) Cardinals to make comments. The geographic separation between these and the Rio Negro population in Brazil makes me suspicious. i wish Dr. Weitzman was still around to ask about this.

 

[KribensisLover1]

First, 6.6 is not a hardness, it is pH, and while softer water tends to have a lower pH, it is not a dependable indicator. And Cardinals still need lower pH than 6.0 to breed but live just fine at 7.6.

Second, hardness itself tends to be more important with Cardinals, as those raised in water above 100ppm TDS may never spawn. There is a very old book, Spawning Problem Fishes by Willy Jocher (2 volumes), that details very carefully the requirements of certain species, and Cardinals are one of the most exacting. If you can find these books, the information within is still better than most of what you find on the internet. I foolishly sold mine, and prices for used copies are ridiculous.

Incidentally, this is the source that mentions that Neons live and breed at much lower temperatures than Cardinals. This information seems to have gotten lost in the early stages of the internet.

I do not have enough information on Colombian (Orinoco) Cardinals to make comments. The geographic separation between these and the Rio Negro population in Brazil makes me suspicious. i wish Dr. Weitzman was still around to ask about this.

Wow cool! Ty! Why does it make you suspicious?

 

[tinylostwine]

I don't think there are that many captive bred Cardinals being produced. It is far more economical to import the wild collected fish. Higher prices using the "wild caught" labelling is simply deceptive practices. However, if you can find a hobbyist/fish breeder who has bred them, I would use those for breeding as they are adapted to living in a controlled environment. They may survive in a higher pH, but you still need to get below 6.0 to breed them.

Just an fyi there are some large cardinal farms in florida - i know our local store import tank raise from them exclusively. I mostly buy wc but most of my aquariums are blackwater though even in tap water (kh 3 gh 6 tds 140) they do fine.

I would like to point out that 26 gallon hex is way too small for 25; these are a fish that do really well if the water quality is good but if it gets polluted they die rather quickly and overstocking is one way to do it. I'd work out the complete stocking but not over do it at least the first 6 months.

I have 20 cardinals in a couple of aquarium but both of them are over 100 gallons.

 

[TClare]

I agree 25 is too many, in addition to water quality issues, cardinals get larger than you might think, much bigger than neon tetras, when they are full sized 25 would be very crowded in that tank.

 

[KribensisLover1]

I agree 25 is too many, in addition to water quality issues, cardinals get larger than you might think, much bigger than neon tetras, when they are full sized 25 would be very crowded in that tank.

Ty! I was told 20 over time. Thoughts?? I would rather have a huge School and get neons but they’re a mess so I really just can’t. I mean, I prefer Cardinals but I want a huge School. However, if they get bigger than perhaps, I don’t even need a huge School for it to look amazing. Also what do you think about small Cories.like if I got them how many LESS cardinals could I get? tinylostwine

 

[tinylostwine]

Well you could get 20 or even 30 green neon tetra - they are the smallest of the three and most likely to show movement in the aquarium - cardinals and neon tend to be more stationary unless something spook them. The reason i always favor the cardinals over the neon are the strong reds in them. If you go with cardinals i'd start with 10 or so and see how it goes after 6 months.

As for small cory pygmy are the best they can also be a lot of fun to watch when they pick up and move. Really a large group of 15 pygmy can be fun but a bit depends on how you scape the aquarium.

 

[KribensisLover1]

Well you could get 20 or even 30 green neon tetra - they are the smallest of the three and most likely to show movement in the aquarium - cardinals and neon tend to be more stationary unless something spook them. The reason i always favor the cardinals over the neon are the strong reds in them. If you go with cardinals i'd start with 10 or so and see how it goes after 6 months.

As for small cory pygmy are the best they can also be a lot of fun to watch when they pick up and move. Really a large group of 15 pygmy can be fun but a bit depends on how you scape the aquarium.

Oh I’ve had green neons and they’re STUNNING but they were SOOOOOOO skittish. I mean they only came out during feeding and when I ducked down so they didn’t see shadow. Is that unusual?

 

[tinylostwine]

Oh I’ve had green neons and they’re STUNNING but they were SOOOOOOO skittish. I mean they only came out during feeding and when I ducked down so they didn’t see shadow. Is that unusual?

I've had some more bold but my current set behaves like that.

 

[bgarthe]

My set of green neons are out and about bc there are several other nano fish shoals to put them at ease. There are groups of espei rasboras, gold neons, chili rasboras, and blue neon rasboras in the 55g tank.

 

[MasterPython]

Well I was shocked to learn most CT’s ARE wild caught! Maybe that’s older info though.

Home - Project Piaba

They live in flooded forests and die in the dry season if no one catches them.

 

[TClare]

My set of green neons are out and about bc there are several other nano fish shoals to put them at ease. There are groups of espei rasboras, gold neons, chili rasboras, and blue neon rasboras in the 55g tank.

I’ve not kept green neons, but once I had some neon tetras in a 240l tank with other small fish, they were out and about all the time. I then moved them to a slightly smaller tank, well planted but no other fish, and they just hid, venturing out only tentatively to feed. When I added the pencilfish to that tank they completely lost their shyness again.

 

[KribensisLover1]

I've had some more bold but my current set behaves like that.

How do they show movement then? You mean when it’s quiet?

I’ve not kept green neons, but once I had some neon tetras in a 240l tank with other small fish, they were out and about all the time. I then moved them to a slightly smaller tank, well planted but no other fish, and they just hid, venturing out only tentatively to feed. When I added the pencilfish to that tank they completely lost their shyness again.

Well I’m getting CT bc of you for better or worse hahahahahaha

 

[bgarthe]

My set of green neons are out and about bc there are several other nano fish shoals to put them at ease. There are groups of espei rasboras, gold neons, chili rasboras, and blue neon rasboras in the 55g tank.

Oops……I meant to say Gold Tetras (Hemigrammus rodwayi), …not…Gold Neons. Besides, there is no such fish as a Gold Neon so far as I know.

My set of green neons are out and about bc there are several other nano fish shoals to put them at ease. There are groups of espei rasboras, gold neons, chili rasboras, and blue neon rasboras in the 55g tank.

Here is a short Vid of my 55g nano tank w Green neon tetras swimming about wo a worry.

 

[KribensisLover1]

Oops……I meant to say Gold Tetras (Hemigrammus rodwayi), …not…Gold Neons. Besides, there is no such fish as a Gold Neon so far as I know.


Here is a short Vid of my 55g nano tank w Green neon tetras swimming about wo a worry.

No there are Gold neons! And I wish I could replicate what you’ve done but I don’t have the space. Stunning.