Urgent: Betta tail & fins completely disintegrated in < 24 hours?!

[munguin]

I am hoping for some help. I have a very sick betta fish and I am hoping someone can help me diagnose what is wrong and help me fix him up.

• Tank: 5 gallons, heated to ~80 degrees F, biologically filtered, started tank with a fishless cycle and achieved pH 7.6, Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 5 (and those numbers have been steady ever since)
• Brought the fish home on July 3. He appeared healthy. I had asked my experienced LFS person to have a good look at him, and she pronounced him healthy (no visible signs of any disease).
• Fish spent 1.5 days hiding, then came out and swam around and appeared very normal.
• On July 14 (11 days after bringing him home), Fish spent a good portion of the day semi-wrapped around the filter pipe. Dosed with 2.5mL of Melafix.
• Next day (July 15) fish was still hiding and lethargic. Appeared to have tiny white dots on his tail and a couple on his body. My amateur online research suggested Ich. I did not have Ich meds on hand so I dosed again with Melafix.
• Next day (July 16) fish was the same - lethargic and white dots. I bought Ich medication and gave him a dose. Photo attached so you can see what he looked like on July 16.
• Next morning (July 17) fish was lying on the bottom of the tank, gasping, and had almost completely lost his entire fins and tail! They were literally disintegrating before my eyes. I called my LFS and a very unhelpful and condescending store person suggested that it was a bacterial issue and not parasitic and I should therefore do a complete water change (to get rid of the Ich med) and go back to dosing with Melafix. So, I performed 2 back-to-back 70% water changes and dosed with Melafix. The poor fish is now lying on the bottom of the tank looking absolutely horrendous. I feel terrible. Photo attached so you can see what he looks like today.

What might be the issue? How can a fish lose his entire tail and fins in less than 1 day? What did I do wrong? And most importantly, what should I do now? I appreciate any help.

 

[Addictedtobettas]

Stop the Melafix, NOW. Do a 50% wc, add stress guard along with the water conditioner.
Mela & Betta 'fix' are truly awful products. At best they seem to do nothing much but for many of us they've made our fish much worse. Labyrinth breathers like Betta can have serious troubles from them.

Please fill out the Emergency Template for further assistance.

Unfortunately, I'm really sorry to say, once they've lost their fins and are lying on the tank floor lethargic its unlikely they'll pull through - but you can try. Wishing you and your fish friend the best.

 

[Sauceboat]

That does sound like a fast moving bacterial infection of sorts. I would stop melafix immediately because it can damage a betta’s labyrinth organ. I would dose a fish antibiotic as instructed by the directions as soon as possible. My betta had similar symptoms, fine one day, next day he’s on the bottom breath hard and lethargic, day after his fins are gone, and then the day after he died. And because he died so late at night I had to wait until morning to burry him and when i found him in the morning a colony of yellow bacteria had colonized on his body, it was traumatic. But if I had a chance to do it over again I’d go for a general antibiotic. I’d suggest ampicillin, tetracycline, or kanamycin.

 

[munguin]

OK. Oy. I have some Furan-2 on hand. I will dose with that. Thanks for the advice. I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[Gone]

It does look like ich. I would continue the ich medication according to instructions.

Once the white spots appear the fish has had ich for some time. The parasite often attacks the gills first, and that happens before any visible symptoms. It's possible there's also a secondary bacterial infection.

If you told the fish store worker that you saw white spots and they said it wasn't ich, I wouldn't trust that source any more. I don't bash all pet shop workers, but it's hit or miss as to whether they know what they're talking about.

Ich can be cured, but it can also take fish down. There are methods other than medication, such as salt and temperature, but all will work. Since you've started with medication, I'd recommend staying with that method. It's tempting to throw the kitchen sink at it, but don't add salt and raise the temperature too. Just stay with the medication.

Also understand that during the life cycle of the ich parasite, the only visible symptom is the white spots. The rest of the life cycle is invisible. Don't stop treating if the white spots disappear because you still have invisible parasites all through the tank. Keep treating for at least a week or 10 days after the white spots disappear.

Lots of water changes won't hurt and will minimize secondary infections. Just make sure you're using water conditioner and the replacement water is the same temp as the water you took out. Changing around 25% of the water every day won't shock your fish, but will keep enough fresh water and dilute the toxins.

 

[munguin]

GuppyDazzle Thank you. Your advice resonates and I appreciate it. This is the 3rd bad experience I've had with this particular store owner and I think you are right it's time to move on. I think she does probably know a lot about fish but does not appear to be all that interested in helping, or even asking me the right questions that would enable her to help me.

I feel absolutely awful and hate to see the fish suffer, and I feel beyond frustrated that I don't feel like I have a handle on what the issue is or why it started in the first place. I have done so much research and put so much time into making sure I'm doing everything right, this is so demoralizing.

At this point I have already removed the Ich medication and moved onto a dose of Furan 2. I am certain I saw some white spots over the last few days, but now I'm not really seeing that as much and instead seeing total disintegration of fins and tail. If I'm understanding correctly, you are thinking that it really was Ich in the first place (which is still in there), plus a secondary bacterial infection that is causing the fin rot. If that is the case, my questions are:

• Should I go back to using the Ich med? If so, can and should I use it simultaneously with the Furan 2?
• I saw conflicting points of view on whether to remove my filter media while using Furan 2. Because I felt a sense of urgency, I went ahead with dosing the Furan 2 and split the difference with the filter media: I left 1 of my filter media in the tank and pulled the other one out (safely soaking in a plastic container in some tank water). If this poor fish recovers, would I be able to put the pulled-out filter media back into the tank (to put back in the nitrifying bacteria)? Or would that be introducing some of the Ich/bad bacteria back into the tank?

Thanks for your help and advice. I cannot wait until someday I am no longer a novice.

 

[Gone]

Try not to get discouraged. Most people who have been in the fish hobby for any length of time have gone through the frustration of disease that makes you want to quit. Just today I got a call from the LFS guy who wanted as many guppies as I could supply him. I thought I'd have at least four dozen good quality guppies, but when I started examining my tanks, something wasn't right. Some of my guppies looked skinnier than they should be, and not as active. I treated for internal parasites, and had to call him back and say sorry. I don't want to provide any fish anywhere unless they're healthy. I started wondering if I'd have to tear down my fish room and start over.

It's almost always an educated guess as to what's wrong. Ich is pretty obvious, but then again little white specks aren't always ich. You just have to make your best guess and go with it.

I did quick read of the Furan 2 from API, and they did say the treatment mess with the biological filter, a common problem when dosing antibiotics. Test the water every day. Combine the numbers for ammonia and nitrite, and do water changes to keep the combined level down to 1 ppm or below. Keep frequent testing and water changes until ammonia and nitrites disappear.

Hopefully the instructions will tell you whether your medications can be used together.

I'd probably be more concerned with the ich at this point if you have to choose. I'd keep dosing the ich medication for at least a week.

Good luck. It's a learning experience. I've been there, and sometimes people hang up their nets and get out of the hobby because of it. Most of those people set up again not long after because they miss it so much.

 

[Sauceboat]

GuppyDazzle Thank you. Your advice resonates and I appreciate it. This is the 3rd bad experience I've had with this particular store owner and I think you are right it's time to move on. I think she does probably know a lot about fish but does not appear to be all that interested in helping, or even asking me the right questions that would enable her to help me.

I feel absolutely awful and hate to see the fish suffer, and I feel beyond frustrated that I don't feel like I have a handle on what the issue is or why it started in the first place. I have done so much research and put so much time into making sure I'm doing everything right, this is so demoralizing.

At this point I have already removed the Ich medication and moved onto a dose of Furan 2. I am certain I saw some white spots over the last few days, but now I'm not really seeing that as much and instead seeing total disintegration of fins and tail. If I'm understanding correctly, you are thinking that it really was Ich in the first place (which is still in there), plus a secondary bacterial infection that is causing the fin rot. If that is the case, my questions are:

• Should I go back to using the Ich med? If so, can and should I use it simultaneously with the Furan 2?
• I saw conflicting points of view on whether to remove my filter media while using Furan 2. Because I felt a sense of urgency, I went ahead with dosing the Furan 2 and split the difference with the filter media: I left 1 of my filter media in the tank and pulled the other one out (safely soaking in a plastic container in some tank water). If this poor fish recovers, would I be able to put the pulled-out filter media back into the tank (to put back in the nitrifying bacteria)? Or would that be introducing some of the Ich/bad bacteria back into the tank?

Thanks for your help and advice. I cannot wait until someday I am no longer a novice.

I think what was going on was that the ick stressed your fish out and thus lowered your fish’s immune defenses allowing for an opportunistic bacteria to come in and take his fins. I would contrinue both the Furan-2 and the ick medication I don’t think there should be an issue using both. If there are any white dots still you definitely want to keep solving the ick because the bacteria will keep coming back until its gone, but also treat the bacteria as that can also kill your fish.
As far as filter media, I have heard Furan 2 and any antibiotic will completely destroy your cycle (it is designed to get rid of bacteria after all) so definitely keep that media cycled out of the tank while treating your fish. I’m not sure what the instructions for the ick medication and Furan-2 are but if possible I’d do water changes fairly frequently as the ammonia will build up quick without the biological filter.

 

[munguin]

GuppyDazzle - thank you so much for that pep talk. I really needed to hear it. My last couple of Bettas have also died (for other reasons as far as I can tell) so I have been starting to wonder whether I am just not cut out to keep fish. It's heartening to hear that sometimes it just takes some time to learn by making mistakes. I just hate to make mistakes that cause creatures to suffer. Your advice and Sauceboat 's is helpful and I appreciate both!

Unfortunately this little guy didn't make it. A very sad 8-year-old kid buried him in the yard this morning.

If I want to try again, here is what I think I should do. I would really appreciate comment on this plan.

• Current situation: Tank has no living things in it and is (or was) cycled, heated to 83 degrees F, water contains 1 dose Furan 2. 1 filter media is in the tank, 1 is sitting outside the tank bathed in tank water (did not come in contact with Furan 2).
• Next steps before getting another fish:
• Leave tank alone for 4-5 days to let the ich lifecycle proceed until it dies. Float the set-aside filter media inside a separate container in the tank to keep it heated as well (but not let it come in contact with the Furan 2 water).
• Complete water change (or maybe even 2 complete water changes) to remove the Furan 2.
• Toss the filter media that were in the tank with the Furan 2.
• Put the set-aside filter media back into the tank. It might have some fin-rot-causing bacteria on it but it would be at low-levels that a healthy fish should be able to fight off.
• Turn heat down to 80.
• Get new fish and try again.

Does this seem like a good plan of action? An alternative would be to get rid of the media and start all over with a new cycle but it would be really awesome if I didn't have to do that.

 

[Sauceboat]

GuppyDazzle - thank you so much for that pep talk. I really needed to hear it. My last couple of Bettas have also died (for other reasons as far as I can tell) so I have been starting to wonder whether I am just not cut out to keep fish. It's heartening to hear that sometimes it just takes some time to learn by making mistakes. I just hate to make mistakes that cause creatures to suffer. Your advice and Sauceboat 's is helpful and I appreciate both!

Unfortunately this little guy didn't make it. A very sad 8-year-old kid buried him in the yard this morning.

If I want to try again, here is what I think I should do. I would really appreciate comment on this plan.

• Current situation: Tank has no living things in it and is (or was) cycled, heated to 83 degrees F, water contains 1 dose Furan 2. 1 filter media is in the tank, 1 is sitting outside the tank bathed in tank water (did not come in contact with Furan 2).
• Next steps before getting another fish:
• Leave tank alone for 4-5 days to let the ich lifecycle proceed until it dies. Float the set-aside filter media inside a separate container in the tank to keep it heated as well (but not let it come in contact with the Furan 2 water).
• Complete water change (or maybe even 2 complete water changes) to remove the Furan 2.
• Toss the filter media that were in the tank with the Furan 2.
• Put the set-aside filter media back into the tank. It might have some fin-rot-causing bacteria on it but it would be at low-levels that a healthy fish should be able to fight off.
• Turn heat down to 80.
• Get new fish and try again.

Does this seem like a good plan of action? An alternative would be to get rid of the media and start all over with a new cycle but it would be really awesome if I didn't have to do that.

I don’t see any issues with your plan, good luck!

 

[munguin]

Stop the Melafix, NOW. Do a 50% wc, add stress guard along with the water conditioner.
Mela & Betta 'fix' are truly awful products. At best they seem to do nothing much but for many of us they've made our fish much worse. Labyrinth breathers like Betta can have serious troubles from them.

This is good to know for future reference. I wonder why there would be products on the market to help sick fish that instead only make them worse? I am seeing them highly reviewed on Amazon, and wondering how that can be? Perhaps it's a superstition - people use them on fish that are already getting better, and then attribute the success to the "fix"?

 

[Sauceboat]

This is good to know for future reference. I wonder why there would be products on the market to help sick fish that instead only make them worse? I am seeing them highly reviewed on Amazon, and wondering how that can be? Perhaps it's a superstition - people use them on fish that are already getting better, and then attribute the success to the "fix"?

I think the “fix” products work pretty well on fish that don’t have a labyrinth organ (breath air from the surface) and they actually work pretty well on Bettas too as far as helping fin rot. But while they may solve the initial problem, the “fix” products tend to damage that labyrinth organ which prevents your fish from breathing properly, causing stress and making the issue worse. But if your fish isn’t an air breather, the products shouldn’t pose a threat to them and work fairly well.

 

[Gone]

If it was me I'd tear it down and start over to be honest. I don't know exactly how long it takes for the beneficial bacteria to die, and I don't know how long it takes for ich to die off without a host. Scrubbing everything with a 10% bleach solution, rinsing very well, and letting it completely air dry should sterilize everything. I'd replace the filter media.

One thing I didn't see in your posts were any discussions of water changes. Do you do partial water changes frequently?

You can do a fishless cycle by adding drops of pure ammonia. I've always cycled with fish in, testing frequently and doing water changes to keep combined ammonia and nitrite at 1 ppm or below. I don't believe bottled bacteria works, and I know it doesn't work as advertised, so I stay away from that.

If you start fresh you won't have to worry whether all those little nasties are gone.

 

[Fisch]

I agree with GuppyDazzle. As there is no full picture regarding the disease, it may be safer to start from scratch, sanitize the tank, replace all media. Yes, it would be inconvenient, but less heart break than exposing a new fish to unknown hazards.
Best of luck.

 

[munguin]

Thanks, GuppyDazzle and Fisch. This is good advice.

GuppyDazzle, I do partial water changes every week, typically around 30%, but more if I notice ammonia creeping up much above 0 (it's always ammonia that wants to creep up on me, never the nitrites or nitrates). When I started my tanks (I have 2 identical 5-gallon tanks), I did a good solid fishless cycle (in fact there is another thread where I had asked for help on that topic), and then have done regular partial water change ever since then. I agree with you on the bottled bacteria - I have not see any particular effect at all (but acknowledge that I'm relatively inexperienced so maybe I'm just doing it wrong).