Question about nitrites (unintentional fish-in cycle)

[CyanMinnow]

New member here looking for advice - hopefully somebody smarter than me can help me figure this out

I recently set up a new 45g tank, and it looks like my 3-week planted fishless cycle was not as robust as I had assumed. My mistake -guess I was just excited to get some fish in here. Before getting fish, the tank was showing low-to-nil ammonia and nitrites, and under 5ppm nitrates. It's now stocked with 2 hillstream loaches, 3 platies, and 6 white cloud minnows. It's also planted with 6 assorted beginner plants. The fish all seem to be doing well, no signs of stress, no gasping, no redness, everyone eats, and the plants all have new growth. I feed and test every day with API liquid kit, and my PH is stable at 8.2. Since stocking the tank, I'm seeing very little change in ammonia and nitrates (perhaps because of all the plants?), but an obvious spike in nitrites.

PH: 8.2
Ammonia: 0-0.125 ppm
Nitrites: 2-3 ppm
Nitrates: 0-5 ppm

So nitrites are the concern here. I know that ultimately we want to see 0ppm at all times, but I want to understand how much the fish can tolerate for the short term. I came across , which shows ammonia and nitrite toxicity at different PH levels. It shows of course that ammonia is more toxic at higher PH, but it also shows that nitrite is the inverse -less toxic at higher PH. I can't find any other sources to corroborate the nitrite aspect of that chart - is this legit and trustworthy? My PH is relatively high, but stabe (GH:150 / KH:180), so it seems like I might be ok to let nitrites stay around 2ppm until the secondary bacteria kick in fully? I've been doing small daily water changes to hopefully keep it under control, but I'm worried about stalling the cycle by starving those secondary bacteria. I've also got a bottle of fritzzyme7 coming tomorrow.

How am I doing -what's my next move?

 

[Noroomforshoe]

Welcome to fishlore! Im not the best person here to handle a cycling question. Do you have algae growth? Those hillstream loaches need a lot of algae. I suggest you put some river rocks or aquarium deco in a jar in the window in your house with the most sun. I have also seem my hill stramers eat gel food, consider try a repashy or make your own gel food for them. I understand how hard it is to wait, good luck, !

 

[ruud]

You want to conduct large water changes to dilute the nitrite concentration or nitrogen concentrations. That's the only thing you need to do ... and frankly the only thing you can do. The rest is beyond our understanding, although test kits appear to make us understand.

There's no "secondary bacteria" to be found in a bottle, or perhaps there are. If the ammonia level in your tank becomes neglible, bacteria species that convert ammonia directly to nitrate are likely to become dominant. But you've bought a bottle of dormant bacteria that were likely produced under sewer conditions. If that is not the case, you could also use the bacteria inside your drinking botlle.

The industry doesn't serve the scientist (who know how hard and expensive it is to preserve a specific strain), but the unwary consumer. But of course the bottle with bacteria will appear to work after a week, because your tank will be a week older from now.

You cannot starve a nitrogen cycle if you have something living in your tank. The microbiota involved in the nitrogen cycle lives on glass, in substrate, on your fish, the water surface, inside your filter, but not in water or not in working modus. Species can go dormant, utilise other energy sources, etc.

You can steer the composition of microbiota by changing e.g. ammonia load, water parameters such as KH, temperature. This could temporarily affect the readings. But bacteria themselves can also alter pathways. They can assimilate nitrogen or reduce instead of oxidize. If you find this interesting, refer to studies. But to enjoy our hobby, the only task is to keep concentrations of ammonia and nitrite neglible through water changes. Let bacteria figure out the cyclings. They probably kill the fritzzyme7 bacteria who perhaps remain dormant inside your tank. You might even see a small peak in ammonia .

 

[CyanMinnow]

You want to conduct large water changes to dilute the nitrite concentration or nitrogen concentrations. That's the only thing you need to do ... and frankly the only thing you can do. The rest is beyond our understanding, although test kits appear to make us understand.

There's no "secondary bacteria" to be found in a bottle, or perhaps there are. If the ammonia level in your tank becomes neglible, bacteria species that convert ammonia directly to nitrate are likely to become dominant. But you've bought a bottle of dormant bacteria that were likely produced under sewer conditions. If that is not the case, you could also use the bacteria inside your drinking botlle.

Thanks for the info.
I'm always sceptical about products that claim to do nature's job. Many people swear it works, but my expectations are low - at the very least, I didn't think it would do any harm. The plan is to just let nature run its course, and protect the fish in the meantime.

What level should the nitrites be at at this stage (when should I change the water)?
-is it true that my harmful nitrite threshold is higher because of my high 8.2ph?

Welcome to fishlore! Im not the best person here to handle a cycling question. Do you have algae growth? Those hillstream loaches need a lot of algae. I suggest you put some river rocks or aquarium deco in a jar in the window in your house with the most sun. I have also seem my hill stramers eat gel food, consider try a repashy or make your own gel food for them. I understand how hard it is to wait, good luck, !

I do have some algae and biofilm, but probably not nearly enough. I hadn't thought of farming my own outside of the tank, what a great idea! In the meantime, I've been trying with algae wafers, but my platies are dominating it, and I have seen either of the loaches get any. Got any tips?

 

[Fishfur]

If I understand it correctly, nitrite would be a bit less toxic at higher pH, in terms of its effect on the haemoglobin in blood & breathing issues.

But it causes stress even at very low levels without causing breathing issues.

So water changes to reduce it to no more than .5 ppm are the only option to address the problem.

Just because the fish aren’t struggling to breathe & seem fine doesn’t mean the nitrite isn’t cause them stress.

Unfortunately, we humans are very poor at ‘reading’ whatever indicators fish may express when stressed, unless they are in such dire straights that the signs become recognizable even to us - clamped fins for example.

I suspect the indicators fish have are very subtle compared to signs we see in fellow mammals or in birds, even in reptiles though they are very tough to read too.

 

[CyanMinnow]

If I understand it correctly, nitrite would be a bit less toxic at higher pH, in terms of its effect on the haemoglobin in blood & breathing issues.

But it causes stress even at very low levels without causing breathing issues.

So water changes to reduce it to no more than .5 ppm are the only option to address the problem.

Just because the fish aren’t struggling to breathe & seem fine doesn’t mean the nitrite isn’t cause them stress.

Unfortunately, we humans are very poor at ‘reading’ whatever indicators fish may express when stressed, unless they are in such dire straights that the signs become recognizable even to us - clamped fins for example.

I suspect the indicators fish have are very subtle compared to signs we see in fellow mammals or in birds, even in reptiles though they are very tough to read too.

Thanks for the info, this is what I was looking for.
OK so high nitrites (at high PH) can still cause stress. I will continue with water changes to keep it under 0.5ppm, and hopefully the cycle doesn't take much longer to complete.

*I'm in southern ont also - my platies and minnows are from the big Al's mississauga. Got any local fish store reccomendations? thanks neighbor!

 

[Fishfur]

Thanks for the info, this is what I was looking for.
OK so high nitrites (at high PH) can still cause stress. I will continue with water changes to keep it under 0.5ppm, and hopefully the cycle doesn't take much longer to complete.

*I'm in southern ont also - my platies and minnows are from the big Al's mississauga. Got any local fish store reccomendations? thanks neighbor!

I’m just down the street from BA Mississauga. There are a lot of great stores, especially if you don’t mind driving a bit.

Finatics - 6200 Dixie at Meyerside.

Tails and Scales, 3466 Dundas W between Runnymede & Jane.

Shrimpfever - 210 Silver Star Blvd #801, Scarborough - near Finch & Midland.

Shrimpfever is pretty close to Big Al’s Scarborough, which is on Kennedy, not too far south of the 401. Points there are the same as points at Mississauga, which is handy - both are corporate stores rather than franchises.

These are my faves but by no means the only stores we have to choose from.

There’s a very nice little store in Burlington too - Planted Aquaria - they ship. It isn’t all that far away though Maps managed to get me thoroughly lost trying to find it the first time I went there.

Then there’s Angelfins, which is in Guelph. They ship, have good prices & are another favourite of mine.

 

[Noddin]

I had that problem. I used Dr Tims ammonium and one and only. First mistake using tap water to clean gravel, second mistake first batch of one and only may not have been live, third mistake Dr. Tim has you add ammonium every three days but stop only after you hit 5.0but that's too high for most beds to handle , fortunately some one on the forum said don't go over 2.0. So six weeks later ammonium that got over 5.0 still hanging on with its teeth after my practicing weekly water changes and not adding any more. Another person on the forum saved the day and I realized my level was ammonium not ammonia but showed up as a high total ammonia and some other ammonia only tester's showed 0.0 ammonia.
At six weeks I was fish restless and someone else on the forum said it takes three months to fully cycle a fishless tank. Total ammonia still at .25; Nitrites.15 and nitrates 0.5.
The above person on the forum said don't worry if you cave and get your fish at 6 wks. in use Seachem stability and do their 7 day challenge directions and you are good to go, as well as add it with the weekly water changes. I had done two days of it, then on the third day caved and when I went back to look at a fish I had seen two days earlier...it had gotten eaten. I saw another one in a different tank ...looked healthy and had all the attributes I was looking for and decided I could do as well as the pet store if not better.
Continued the Seachem stability as directed and put fish in isolation tank with an air stone and prophylactic meds, Seachem Gold trace , Stress guard and had a bottle of Dr. Tims first defense that seemed be adding something else to the mix. and did three days of this with the Seachem stability 7 day treatment going on in the big tank. At the end of a full three days with some water changes in isolation tank with big tank water moved my fish over. Fortunately at the fourth day of fish with a two day head start, Seachem stability had gotten the Seachem alert to flip over from the light green to an obvious yellow. Yeah fish and tank made it. Still have one more day to add Seachem...tank is going well, fish is happy and I'm relieved. Still have trace nitrite and nitrates as well as the ammonium but ready to start the once a Seachem addition Thursday. and my 7 day tank challenge ends today. I haven't tested yet today but the Seachem alert is yellow...yeah a second time.

 

[Noroomforshoe]

Thanks for the info.
I'm always sceptical about products that claim to do nature's job. Many people swear it works, but my expectations are low - at the very least, I didn't think it would do any harm. The plan is to just let nature run its course, and protect the fish in the meantime.

What level should the nitrites be at at this stage (when should I change the water)?
-is it true that my harmful nitrite threshold is higher because of my high 8.2ph?


I do have some algae and biofilm, but probably not nearly enough. I hadn't thought of farming my own outside of the tank, what a great idea! In the meantime, I've been trying with algae wafers, but my platies are dominating it, and I have seen either of the loaches get any. Got any tips?

Some things that i have tried to feed my loaches -
Nori/seaweed sheet, spiked onto a spoon handle and Repashy bottom scrapper. But my fish, prefer the gel food that I make, and refused the repashy, WEIRD?
The gel food I make=
If the directions say add one cup of water on the package of gelatine,
Grind up half a keep of solid and some liquid. maybe 3 quarters of a cup of food and liquid,"or a little less then the package says" and then the gelitine.
I add things like,
mustard greens Broccoli, kale, dandelion leaves and roots, cricket flour, yellow pepper for colour, spiraling powder, shrimp, scallops, garlic, Tillapia,

 

[CyanMinnow]

Some things that i have tried to feed my loaches -
Nori/seaweed sheet, spiked onto a spoon handle and Repashy bottom scrapper. But my fish, prefer the gel food that I make, and refused the repashy, WEIRD?
The gel food I make=
If the directions say add one cup of water on the package of gelatine,
Grind up half a keep of solid and some liquid. maybe 3 quarters of a cup of food and liquid,"or a little less then the package says" and then the gelitine.
I add things like,
mustard greens Broccoli, kale, dandelion leaves and roots, cricket flour, yellow pepper for colour, spiraling powder, shrimp, scallops, garlic, Tillapia,

Thanks for the tips!

I’m just down the street from BA Mississauga. There are a lot of great stores, especially if you don’t mind driving a bit.

Finatics - 6200 Dixie at Meyerside.

Tails and Scales, 3466 Dundas W between Runnymede & Jane.

Shrimpfever - 210 Silver Star Blvd #801, Scarborough - near Finch & Midland.

Shrimpfever is pretty close to Big Al’s Scarborough, which is on Kennedy, not too far south of the 401. Points there are the same as points at Mississauga, which is handy - both are corporate stores rather than franchises.

These are my faves but by no means the only stores we have to choose from.

There’s a very nice little store in Burlington too - Planted Aquaria - they ship. It isn’t all that far away though Maps managed to get me thoroughly lost trying to find it the first time I went there.

Then there’s Angelfins, which is in Guelph. They ship, have good prices & are another favourite of mine.

Thanks for the suggestions! - I'm keeping a list and I'll get to visit them all sometime

 

[3Fishnight]

Fish in cycle > fishless cycle