Permanent 0.25 ppm ammonia (not a cycling post)

[Dechi]

My Fluval 407 filter can’t seem to keep up with the last addition of a big group of fish. This filter had been running for 18 months before I started a new 75 gallons and transferred it. For the first month it was fine, I had 11 fish and no ammonia at all. Those fish were added slowly by groups of 4 (1 jumped and died).

Then I added 11 fish at once. I was expecting a mini spike, but it’s been going on for 2 months straight. At first I treated it like the tank was cycling (water changes, daily testing, Prime, ect). After 4 weeks with no improvement I figured I was wasting my time and just went on with my regular weekly maintenance.

On march 2 I did a filter maintenance and for 1 day it looked almost perfect. But then the ammonia was right back. This is just not making sense. The Fluval 407 has 3 baskets full of bio media, that ‘s a lot.

Yesterday I tested the ammonia and I got 0.25 ppm. Today I do my usual 50% weekly water change and the ammonia is still at 0.25 ppm. I’ve tested the tap water multiple times and it’s a nice yellow. I’ve compared my tank test to the tap test and there is a clear green tint to it.

Before I go ahead and spend 500$ on a Fluval FX, I thought I’d ask one last time, in case someone has an idea.

Could it be a case of harmless ammonium showing up on the test ? But why ?

The fish are doing fine. They are cichlids and they are constantly breeding. Could it be dead fries caught somewhere in the rocks (the tank is filled with rocks with crevices in them) ? This is far fetched as the adults are most probably eating them all.

I’m having a heavy diatom bloom. Could it be the cause ?

Thanks for your help !

 

[BigManAquatics]

Only idea is along the same lines as you, but wondering if fry somehow made it into the inlet or a dead one got sucked up and stuck in a hose sonewhere?

 

[Dechi]

Only idea is along the same lines as you, but wondering if fry somehow made it into the inlet or a dead one got sucked up and stuck in a hose sonewhere?

That’s something I hadn’t thought of. I will take off the hoses and clean them this week. Fluval has ridged hoses so maybe the fries get stuck to it ?

 

[BigManAquatics]

That’s something I hadn’t thought of. I will take off the hoses and clean them this week. Fluval has ridged hoses so maybe the fries get stuck to it ?

Supoose anything is possible. The only other idea i had was your tap water but you already have that covered!

 

[John58ford]

Strange thought, with new stuff comes new lights. Are you reading the tap water and tank tests in the same room? I always get a slight false if I use my tank lights but when I walk to the kitchen it's a perfect yellow.

Could be a dead batch of fry though, that kind of thing can happen, maybe several got trapped under or sucked into something. I had a batch get pulled into an in tank filter a couple years ago. Was a bummer of a mess.

 

[Fae]

If it doesn't turn out to be dead fry, consider maybe it's your test? Mine recently started mostly giving me .25 readings except sporadically it won't, perhaps when I shake bottle one just the right amount of times. The change coincided with bottle 1's liquid becoming more "goopy" for some reason, so I figure that's the reason

 

[Dechi]

Strange thought, with new stuff comes new lights. Are you reading the tap water and tank tests in the same room?

Yes, I always do them side by side, sitting at my kitchen table.

Could be a dead batch of fry though, that kind of thing can happen, maybe several got trapped under or sucked into something.

If that’s what it is, then I’m in for quite a ride ! That means I’ll have to take out all the rocks. Very risky and a pita !

If it doesn't turn out to be dead fry, consider maybe it's your test? Mine recently started mostly giving me .25 readings except sporadically it won't, perhaps when I shake bottle one just the right amount of times.

The test works fine on my other tank and with tap water. I think we can exclude this possibility.

 

[smee82]

What % of water do you normally change every week and have you tried testing straight after a extra large water change, i mean like 80% or more.
Normally i can do extra large changes every week as the ph is similar from the tap and i fill my tank back up slowly without affecting my fish but with mbunas im not sure as ive never had them.

Saying that im not sure if i would be very worried as ammonia affects fish differently at different ph's,. I cant find the chart i used to have but im 90% sure ammonia readings of 0.5 were safe if your ph was 8 or less. I checked yes ago when i was considering cichlids doing a planted tank agajn.

 

[Dechi]

What % of water do you normally change every week and have you tried testing straight after a extra large water change, i mean like 80% or more.

I change 50% weekly. I don’t do 80%.

I cant find the chart i used to have but im 90% sure ammonia readings of 0.5 were safe if your ph was 8 or less.

My ph is currently 7.8 - 8.0. I’m sure 0.25 ppm is not lethal but the fish sometimes flash, which means there is something bothering them.

I’ve been in the hobby for a long time and I’ve never had ammonia like this, so I know it’s not « normal ». I just want what’s best for my fish.

 

[Redshark1]

I change 30% twice a week.

My ammonia has always been 0.25ppm in all six of my aquaria.

This does not worry me, as this value is a tenth of what OATA says the LFS should achieve to be issued a licence to trade.



I figure that some ammonia must always be present in the aquarium. My fish produce it 24/7 directly into the water, not the filter, so there is always some ammonia in the water and on its way to the filter. This is what we test.

I also think that the API test is a very good one and results have been reliable for me.

The only water I have which achieves yellow on the test without any green tinge is my water butt outdoors.

 

[Deku-Cory]

I've gotten the 0.25ppm reading on my Ammonia test for ages. A lot of other people do as well, and it was just chalked up to a quitk of the API test kit. Then I was listening to a recent Aquarium Co-op livestream, and Cory said something very interesting. He mentioned sulfer based water conditioners like Prime can cause false positives in a lot of liquid test kits like the API test kit. This would explain why so many people get that 0.25ppm reading when testing their tank water, but not when testing their tap water. It doesn't explain why people get positive readings on some tanks and negative readings on others though.
I searched through the streams until I found that part, because I wanted to confirm it and make sure I remembered everything properly.
He starts talking about it at 1:10:40.

 

[Dechi]

This does not worry me, as this value is a tenth of what OATA says the LFS should achieve to be issued a licence to trade.

I do not understand your charts. What's the difference between the first one and second one ? And what units are the numbers ? I see 0.0039, for example, which is a lot less than 0.25 ppm if the unit is ppm also.

I've gotten the 0.25ppm reading on my Ammonia test for ages.

But I’ve always had perfectly yellow results for 20 years. Except with this tank. Is it because it’s overstocked ? I don’t know.

He mentioned sulfer based water conditioners like Prime can cause false positives in a lot of liquid test kits like the API test kit.

Yes, I am aware of that and I’ve stopped using Prime more than 3 weeks ago because of that. The dechlorinator I’m using has given me perfect yellow readings for 18 months that I had a tank going with the same water, in the same house.

Which makes me wonder if having a bigger filter, with more water flow would help harbor more bacteria.

You say you’ve been having ammonia readings for ages. How big is your tank and how much filtration do you have on it and what filter ?

 

[Deku-Cory]

I do not understand your charts. What's the difference between the first one and second one ? And what units are the numbers ? I see 0.0039, for example, which is a lot less than 0.25 ppm if the unit is ppm also.


But I’ve always had perfectly yellow results for 20 years. Except with this tank. Is it because it’s overstocked ? I don’t know.



Yes, I am aware of that and I’ve stopped using Prime more than 3 weeks ago because of that. The dechlorinator I’m using has given me perfect yellow readings for 18 months that I had a tank going with the same water, in the same house.

Which makes me wonder if having a bigger filter, with more water flow would help harbor more bacteria.

You say you’ve been having ammonia readings for ages. How big is your tank and how much filtration do you have on it and what filter ?

In that case, scratch the dechlorinator theory for your situation!

I have a 75 gallon with a Cascade 1000 canister filter, a Marineland Penguin 200B, and sometimes a sponge filter, but that one is pretty inconsequential for filtration since it's mainly around for use in my quarantine tank.
The 0.25 ppm Ammonia reading would show up even during periods of time when my tank was full of plants and had a light stock consisting of just Cories and nothing else. Even if the filters weren't pulling their weight, any ammonia produced should have quickly been devoured by the absolute jungle of plants I had at one point. So it always really confused me.

 

[Cherryshrimp420]

In my experience canister filters don't make much of a dent on the nitrification process especially for larger tanks.

The substrate still provides much more surface area by far, and you'll be surprised that simply running a wavemaker over the substrate will provide similar results as multiple canister filters

 

[Dechi]

In my experience canister filters don't make much of a dent on the nitrification process especially for larger tanks.

The substrate still provides much more surface area by far, and you'll be surprised that simply running a wavemaker over the substrate will provide similar results as multiple canister filters

I’ve always had good results with canister filters. And I do have a power head aiming at the substrate to help move the detritus toward the inlet. The cichlids are big diggers though and they continually disturb the substrate.

Which makes me realize that maybe that’s the major difference with all the tanks I’ve had before. I always had deep substrate and it wasn’t move much, if at all.

Now, with cichlids, the substrate is never left alone. Also, since I have diatoms, I’ve been vacuuming it a little more than I would usually do, even though I try not to go too deep.

This is a very possible cause !

 

[Dennis57]

All my tanks are over filtered and the ammonia always reads .25 no matter what I do.

I do a 40-50% water change twice a week and once a month I will do a 75% water change.

It always reads .25 and this has been going on for 29 years since I been in this house.

 

[Cherryshrimp420]

I’ve always had good results with canister filters. And I do have a power head aiming at the substrate to help move the detritus toward the inlet. The cichlids are big diggers though and they continually disturb the substrate.

Which makes me realize that maybe that’s the major difference with all the tanks I’ve had before. I always had deep substrate and it wasn’t move much, if at all.

Now, with cichlids, the substrate is never left alone. Also, since I have diatoms, I’ve been vacuuming it a little more than I would usually do, even though I try not to go too deep.

This is a very possible cause !

Hmm I'd imagine with frequently disturbed substrate it would not be able to play the nitrification role as well as it should... Have you looked into wet-dry sumps? Supposedly for the same filter media, a wet-dry system is more efficient because it promotes stronger bacteria growth due to the increased oxygen availability.

I don't know how true that is, but I moved from double canisters on my 75gal to a wet-dry sump and it's working pretty well so far

 

[Dechi]

I’ve never heard of wet-dry sumps. Are they like regular sumps ? Anyways I don’t know if I have enough room in my cabinet and I would be hesitant to drill my tank.

I suppose a bigger canister like the FX6 would help.

 

[Cherryshrimp420]

I’ve never heard of wet-dry sumps. Are they like regular sumps ? Anyways I don’t know if I have enough room in my cabinet and I would be hesitant to drill my tank.

I suppose a bigger canister like the FX6 would help.

Yeah kind of like normal sumps except the media is above the waterline. The intake splashes water over it so that is is constantly wet but not fully submerged in water. This way the bacteria gets a lot more atmospheric oxygen and grows "stronger" (in theory)

 

[Dechi]

Update , 2 months after adding the fish, the ammonia level seems to have gone down to 0 (I compared it to tap water).

Since I feel this stability is very fragile, I’ve decided to go with a more powerful filter. After a lot of hesitation between the FX4 and FX6, I’ve decided on the FX4. It will almost double the filtration capacity but won’t provide much more space for biomedia than the Fluval 407 I have. I’m hoping the significant increase in water flow will help colonize BB better.

The FX6 was very tempting but after extensive research, fish keepers often find it very, very loud. Lots of people complaining they can’t stand having it in their living room (where my tank is), even after trying different adjustments. The FX4 has a lot less complaints and people find it a lot more quiet.

In any case, if it doesn’t work it’s going back.

 

[Dechi]

I’ve installed my new FX4 today. The manual says it takes 30-45 minutes. Yeah, right. It took me 2 1/2 hours... And another 2 hours to adjust my lid because the hose is thicker, clean the Fluval 407 so it’s ready in case I decide to sell it and clean the mess in the house!

Mind you I’m not strong and I really took my time because the last thing you want is a hose cut too short or a water spillage on the floor after your hard work !

I noticed while installing it that the tank water no longer smells like cat p... That’s coherent with the test showing 0ppm of ammonia.

The FX4 should keep up the good work and do even better. I’m liking it so far, it’s about the same noise level as the Fluval 407. With a lot more power, filtration and biological and mechanical media.

 

[Dechi]

Grrrrr... today I tested the ammonia in the tank and it’s back to 0.25 ppm. I used 100% of the bio-media but none of the sponges, as they didn’t have the right shape to fit in the FX4 baskets.

I was expecting it but was hoping it wouldn’t be the case.

The fish had stopped flashing. I hope it doesn’t take 2 months this time.

 

[Dechi]

Update : yesss, the ammonia is gone ! It took about 7 days for the FX-4 to mature enough to get rid of the ammonia spike.

The tank no longer smells like cat pee... I’m a very happy girl !