Not another Ich thread...

[PAcanis]

So yes, I read through a bunch of threads already.
And I've decided to try the raised temps first. Which due to the nature of aquarium heaters might take a few days to hone in on 86F.

I have one new (six days in my tank) fish that I saw some spots on tonight. From both sides (same spots).
But no swimming erratically and eats fine. However, I used to have two of these and I've only seen one at a time the past few days. They were always together at first lights on, then separated. Now there only appears to be one. But how can you tell twins apart? I'm holding out hope there are still two. I seemed to have this problem with my last two Agassizii.

But if you notice, I have white specks in the water column. Which I've had since adding Corys.

So we'll see. I felt like documenting things. Hopefully it is nothing or goes away on its own.

 

[Fishstery]

Any particular reason you don't want to use meds? It definitely looks like ich from the picture. If your worry is copper you can give Kordons rid ich herbal formula a try, it's an "organic" herbal treatment that is invert safe. Reviews are a bit mixed on whether or not it will work but obviously some people have lack of experience and you can't really trust all the reviews. Might be worth a shot to try in conjunction with your heat treatment. Good luck

 

[PAcanis]

Good luck

Thanks.

Reasons... Well, like I said, I read several posts/threads on a few forums, plus those snippet google answers to questions. It seems split between meds vs temp increase. And seeing as how I don't have any ich meds, I did the first thing available to me. I raised the temp (hopefully 6-7 degrees) in my tank.

I do plan on getting some meds tomorrow, just in case. But I read to give the raised temps three days.

And I also read NOT to do both. It is either or. So since I started with raising the temp, I will follow up with a water change for the nest three days. Or four, whenever I hit 86F.

I read the pros and cons of both and considered this my best "right now" option.
But I am certainly not opposed to meds. Not at all.

And since I only have one fish with dots and he was not displaying any Stage One symptoms, and my tank has stirred up sand that looks exactly the same floating about, I also have to say, I am rolling the dice a little. I am not 100% convinced it is Ich. Close, but not 100.

It seemed the best way to go

 

[Fishstery]

Thanks.

Reasons... Well, like I said, I read several posts/threads on a few forums, plus those snippet google answers to questions. It seems split between meds vs temp increase. And seeing as how I don't have any ich meds, I did the first thing available to me. I raised the temp (hopefully 6-7 degrees) in my tank.

I do plan on getting some meds tomorrow, just in case. But I read to give the raised temps three days.

And I also read NOT to do both. It is either or. So since I started with raising the temp, I will follow up with a water change for the nest three days. Or four, whenever I hit 86F.

I read the pros and cons of both and considered this my best "right now" option.
But I am certainly not opposed to meds. Not at all.

And since I only have one fish with dots and he was not displaying any Stage One symptoms, and my tank has stirred up sand that looks exactly the same floating about, I also have to say, I am rolling the dice a little. I am not 100% convinced it is Ich. Close, but not 100.

It seemed the best way to go

Knock on wood I've been super fortunate to have only dealt with ich once way early on in the hobby, I can't even remember if I treated it or if it was even conformed ich. So I really have zero personal experience with what works and what doesn't with it. But I've read the same also, it definitely seems that a lot of people go with the heat method with some success. I know it speeds up the life cycle, but I'm not really sure how it can eradicate the parasite if it is still able to "breed"? So some confusion on my part about how that works lol!! I also know that ich rarely ever targets completely healthy/unstressed fish and that it can somehow go away on its own occasionally in the presence of a tank with a UV sterilizer.

 

[GlennO]

So yes, I read through a bunch of threads already.
And I've decided to try the raised temps first. Which due to the nature of aquarium heaters might take a few days to hone in on 86F.

A few days is giving the Ich a big head start. If it's going to take that long I would be inclined to use meds if you can get some quickly.

 

[PAcanis]

A few days is giving the Ich a big head start. If it's going to take that long I would be inclined to use meds if you can get some quickly.

Good point.

I don't actually think it's going to take three days to dial in the heater. I was more alluding to how fiddly the thermostat is and you can't simply set it at a certain temperature and expect to hit that temperature.

But I was at 83F this morning, so only 3 more degrees to go.

 

[PAcanis]

I did a WC first. So now I'm working my way up to 86F.
But look at this rummynose's dorsal. The big guy on the left.


He was swimming back and forth and those white spots were definitely stuck to his fin.
But when I saw the Apisto it only had one spot on its caudal. The lower spot is still there, but the other two are gone. As well as the one on its dorsal.

That's why I'm reacting slowly/cautiously about medicating. I'm still not convinced it is ich and not the random small white debris you see in the tank.

Just an update.

 

[MacZ]

If it's ON the fish, and with the rummynose I am positive because they are very susceptive to ichthyo, do something. Now. Nobody can understand being hesitant with meds better than me, believe me, but THIS is a clear thing.

Use a med without Methylene Blue, Malachite Green and Formaldehyde (because of the cories and because Apistos also don't like that stuff)

Vendors | BSAVA Library
Here's a list with the most frequently available meds including ingredients. You need something against Protozoa. I recommend Sera Protazol, but I doubt you will get it soon if at all.

 

[PAcanis]

Thanks for the replies.

I picked up some medication earlier today. Like I said I would. So went ahead and dosed the tank. I still hadn't hit 86F yet. I don't get that heater.

Anyway, the stuff is called Ich Attack and the LFS swears by it. She said she uses it herself on their tanks. It's all natural and has the usual Amazon reviews with a 4.5 rating. Most say it works, some don't.

Being that it's all natural I feel pretty comfortable with it.

But she also said something has to be causing stress in the tank. And I have no idea what that can be unless it's my one pencilfish. But he only bullies the other two pencilfish and they look fine.
She suggested I run the tank a few degrees warmer, like 80-82F. So we'll see.

 

[MacZ]

But she also said something has to be causing stress in the tank. And I have no idea what that can be unless it's my one pencilfish. But he only bullies the other two pencilfish and they look fine.

No way, the pencils should only stress each other.

 

[PAcanis]

That's what I told her. And the other two are fine. In spite of the occasional chasing and nipping.
She wondered if something was happening at night. Which of course I would have no idea. I never see the bully go after anything else during the day.

But with parameters and everything else fine, something must be going on.

I still think it's odd the Apisto lost four out of five spots. Maybe he was shaking it off on his own.

 

[MacZ]

Prerequisite for ich is the presence of the parasite, not stress. Stress only makes it worse. But once the dots are there it's there to stay unless treated.

I still think it's odd the Apisto lost four out of five spots. Maybe he was shaking it off on his own.

No, why? Ich spots fall off when ready, release the swimmers and those start new spots elsewhere. I assumed you know the life cycle of ich.

 

[PAcanis]

Prerequisite for ich is the presence of the parasite, not stress.

Correct. And according the owner of the shop the parasite is always present. But if the fish gets stressed it gives the parasite an opportunity to take hold.
It sounds like an immunity thing to me. You get stressed, your immunity drops, ich gets its chance.

No, why? Ich spots fall off when ready, release the swimmers and those start new spots elsewhere. I assumed you know the life cycle of ich.

I know nothing of ich. I never had to deal with it before. Even 30 years ago.

As Schultz would say, I know nothing. Nothing.

 

[GlennO]

And according the owner of the shop the parasite is always present.

I’ve heard the claim occasionally that the Ich protozoan is always present in the water but I’ve never heard it explained how that would be possible without noticing it. It has a complex life cycle that lasts up to 6 days at around 25C. It must complete this life cycle continually otherwise it dies out. If it is always present in a tank that means that there would always be some Ich in the trophont stage where it is visible as a white spot feeding on the fish.

Clearly that is not the case in every tank or we would be seeing white spots on some of our fish in all of our tanks at any given time. The only other explanation would be if it were able to lie dormant for long periods in one of its environmental life stages but I’ve never seen such a thing mentioned in any literature. In fact its environmental stages are each shorter than the stage on the fish. In my experience it is always introduced into a tank.

 

[MacZ]

Correct. And according the owner of the shop the parasite is always present. But if the fish gets stressed it gives the parasite an opportunity to take hold.

Yeah, that info is fairly outdated. In the 50s and 60s when tapwater wasn't pretreated much in most countries it was true that the parasite was omnipresent. The modernisation of water supply infrastructure and introduction of pretreatment took time, regionally far into the 70s and 80s. Nowerdays the theory can't be held up anymore.
Once you've treated a tank for it it has to be reintroduced (most often with tankwater from stores and un-quarantined fish).
I can dig them up if you want, there are a number of studies that have proven it to be solely necessary for the parasite to be present over the years.

It sounds like an immunity thing to me. You get stressed, your immunity drops, ich gets its chance.

That is true for some things you can't eradicate once they are in a tank like certain opportunistic bacteria, which come in by other ways than the water supply. With the use of RO your source water is sterile anyway.
With ich stress only factors in with the severety of the outbreak.

I know nothing of ich. I never had to deal with it before. Even 30 years ago.

I must be really a fish geek. I even know the life cycles and treatments for dieases and parasites I never had to deal with by heart. I like to be prepared in case something comes up. Funnily enough I learned that quickly. You just don't have the time in case of a disease to only get informed when it comes up. That leads to insecurity and mistakes and at least 50% of disease threads on this forum.

My last ich case was 3 years ago and the last one before that when the years where still counting 19XY.

 

[DoubleDutch]

Natural / Herbal may sound great but there have been a lot of threads on this and other forums where it went completely wrong.

Some things simply have to be solved and not always in soft way.

Most dead fish in cases of Ich are the result of human behaviour (this really is the biggest factor) and bad decissions.
Not needed at all

When one gets Ich in his / hers tank simply DECIDE. OR heat OR meds. Start treating. Stick to the plan and don't do both.

 

[PAcanis]

Thanks for the input.

 

[PAcanis]

I'm happy to say that I do not see any white specs on any of the Tetras.
Now if I can get my female A. Agassizii to come to the front of the tank... She was the fish that was more prone to having a few on her fins. And then the following day none. So I want to be sure to monitor her before ending the doses.

Fingers crossed.