New Tank Having a Few Issues

[ncanine1932]

First, this forum seems extremely helpful so I'm glad I found somewhere that I can hopefully get some answers for some of my issues. Thanks to all in advance!

Tank
What is the water volume of the tank? 10 gallon
How long has the tank been running? 7 days
Does it have a filter? Yes - AquaClear 5-20g filter
Does it have a heater? Yes
What is the water temperature? Consistently sits at 77-78ºF
What is the entire stocking of this tank? 4 platy (2 bumblebee, 2 mixed) and 4 shrimp (2 cherry, 2 orange bee shrimp)

Maintenance
How often do you change the water? 1x per week
How much of the water do you change? 15% water change
What do you use to treat your water? TopFin Water Conditioner and API pH Up
Do you vacuum the substrate or just the water? substrate + water

I have only done a water change once as this tank is new.

*Parameters - Very Important
Did you cycle your tank before adding fish? No, but Readistrart Nitrifying Bacteria Starter was added a day prior to stocking
What do you use to test the water? Topfin 5-in-1 water test strips + litmus paper for another pH reading
What are your parameters? We need to know the exact numbers, not just “fine” or “safe”. As of today (9/8/2024)
Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 0 ppm
pH: 7.5
Alkalinity: somewhere between 180-300 ppm
Total hardness: 150 ppm

I have been testing the parameters daily since noticing the cloudiness. I have yet to have any readings show ammonia or nitrite levels above 0.

Feeding
How often do you feed your fish? 1x daily
How much do you feed your fish? about 1/4-1/2 a teaspoon
What brand of food do you feed your fish? NLS tropical fish diet
Do you feed frozen? Yes, 1x per week
Do you feed freeze-dried foods? No

Illness & Symptoms
How long have you had this fish? 6 days
How long ago did you first notice these symptoms? yesterday evening/this morning (9/7-9/8)
In a few words, can you explain the symptoms?
One of our fish (bumblebee platy) has been very lethargic and sits in one corner of the tank behind a live plant. It has its moments where it is active and has been feeding without issue. This morning I also noticed heavy gill "breathing" but that has since stopped. As of today evening, another one of the fish also started isolating itself but less often. Have seen no change to skin, feeding, or body condition.

Have you started any treatment for the illness? No
Was your fish physically ill or injured upon purchase? No
How has its behavior and appearance changed, if at all?
I have seen in numerous occasions yesterday and today that two of the other platys will pick on the bumblebee and the mixed one that have been isolating themselves. More below.

Explain your emergency situation in detail.
(Please give a clear explanation of what is going on, include details from the beginning of the illness leading up to now)

I finished setting up this tank a week ago, when I added treated tap water that had a nitrifying bacteria starter (that states it helps prevent new tank syndrome) and a biological cleaner. I ensured that all the parameters were within acceptable ranges before I added the two live plants that I have in there. The next day, I stocked the tank with 4 platys and 4 shrimp (as mentioned above). All of them looked healthy and behaved naturally when I bought them. The first couple nights they continued to behave naturally and schooled well. Only issue was that they would go to eat their pellets and then spit it up. I found online that this was natural as they got accustomed to their new tank and it went away after two nights. On Thursday morning, I noticed that the tank had gotten incredibly cloudy and that a layer of bacteria/slime was starting to build on the substrate. Not knowing this was a sign of NTS, I vacuumed most of the substrate and did a 15% water change that evening. Over the next three days the tank has cleared up well and the substrate does not have as much slime. During the cloudiness phase, the shrimp did seem to have a hard time. They all were clustered together and very inactive unlike the first couple days. They are still pretty inactive now even though the cloudiness has cleared but I am hoping that they get better. So that was my first issue which hopefully is nearly resolved. Any recommendations on what I could have or can do better would be greatly appreciated.

My second problem is what is more urgent and has definitely not been resolved. The two platys that have been isolating themselves are continuing to do so and I was not sure if it was a result of them falling ill from the NTS or something else. However, this morning I noticed for the first time that the larger of the bumblebee platys has been very aggressively picking on the other three. One of the mixed seems to tolerate it well and tries to pick back at it, but the other two just sit in the bottom corner of the tanks. I'm not sure if it is because of the behavior or if they are lethargic due to something else, but when I do see them swim, they go full speed. They also will come out to eat. I don't understand why the one is being so aggressive, but I removed him from the tank for about 30 minutes and watched as the mixed and other bumble became much more active. I don't know if they are just forming some kind of hierarchy within the school or if there is another issue here. I really would not like to get rid of any of them so I hope something else can be done to remedy this. But if that is the only option for the quality of life of the other guys then I understand.

Thank y'all for your help and lmk if there is any other info needed or if you guys have suggestions.

 

[Fishfur]

Welcome to Fishlore.

It sounds like you may have one platy that’s a bully - it happens.

Do you know what sexes the Platies are? If not, post images of each one, we need to see the analfins to determine sex.

 

[NotSoAggressiveAquatics]

Hi welcome! First off I just want to let you know that unfortunately your tank likely isn’t cycled. I can’t say for certain without seeing a picture but the cloudy water is almost 99% likely a bacterial bloom which is common in new tanks while your beneficial bacteria is establishing. The bottles of bacteria can be great for jump starting and aiding in the cycle but the claims that any brand makes of instantly cycling your tank or making it safe to add fish immediately are false because it’s impossible to do so instantly.

Right now you’re going to be doing a fish in cycle which is doable with close monitoring and water changes but not necessarily ideal. So far it looks like your ammonia and nitrite are both reading zero which is good, but surprising. What are you using to test with? Depending on the brand of starter bacteria you added it could be detoxifying the ammonia and nitrite temporarily so just keep watching carefully for a spike in the numbers.

Shrimp are really sensitive to any negative parameters or changes to their environment, and since they’re already acting lethargic, not to sound pessimistic but don’t feel too discouraged if they don’t make it until your tank is established. Platys are generally pretty hardy fish so they should be fine as long as you keep monitoring your water and keeping up with water changes as soon as numbers start to spike. I don’t know much about platy behavior but it sounds like you either have 2 males that are fighting for dominance or you have a male and female and this is just breeding behavior, but like I said I don’t know about platys specifically, I’m just going off of general fish behavior and I’m sure someone who knows more about them will chime in.

If I wasn’t clear on anything or you’re confused feel free to ask any questions!

 

[ruud]

I'd think the cause of cloudiness is the use of bottles that make no sense, except for the supplier.

pH up likely implies a strong base or carbonate salt. It is probably clear stuff on its own until it is added in water containing other salts. The reactions with these other salts causes cloudiness. Perhaps in chemistry class you've seen experiments where different substances are mixed in water, causing significant cloudiness, due to heat or precipation.

If pH up is used for neocaridina shrimp, use limestones instead of chasing a pH number that doesn't mean so much on its own. Shrimps will be grazing on the calcium and carbonate rich biofilm that develops on the stones.

Bacteria in a (air-tight) bottle are dead (ammonia source....great), dormant, and if revived, of very questionable use. I'm still waiting on a "white paper" that demonstrates its use.

 

[ncanine1932]

Hi welcome! First off I just want to let you know that unfortunately your tank likely isn’t cycled. I can’t say for certain without seeing a picture but the cloudy water is almost 99% likely a bacterial bloom which is common in new tanks while your beneficial bacteria is establishing. The bottles of bacteria can be great for jump starting and aiding in the cycle but the claims that any brand makes of instantly cycling your tank or making it safe to add fish immediately are false because it’s impossible to do so instantly.

Right now you’re going to be doing a fish in cycle which is doable with close monitoring and water changes but not necessarily ideal. So far it looks like your ammonia and nitrite are both reading zero which is good, but surprising. What are you using to test with? Depending on the brand of starter bacteria you added it could be detoxifying the ammonia and nitrite temporarily so just keep watching carefully for a spike in the numbers.

Shrimp are really sensitive to any negative parameters or changes to their environment, and since they’re already acting lethargic, not to sound pessimistic but don’t feel too discouraged if they don’t make it until your tank is established. Platys are generally pretty hardy fish so they should be fine as long as you keep monitoring your water and keeping up with water changes as soon as numbers start to spike. I don’t know much about platy behavior but it sounds like you either have 2 males that are fighting for dominance or you have a male and female and this is just breeding behavior, but like I said I don’t know about platys specifically, I’m just going off of general fish behavior and I’m sure someone who knows more about them will chime in.

If I wasn’t clear on anything or you’re confused feel free to ask any questions!

Hi, thanks for the info! Yeah, I was planning on cycling the tank before adding the fish, but the bottle I have by TopFin claimed that fish can be added immediately and that it helps prevent new tank syndrome. As a first time freshwater tank owner, I thought this could save me a from messing up that process. I guess that I was fooled by bs marketing.

Unfortunately, I woke up this morning and one of the mixed platys (the one that was isolating itself) had died. I am getting a little desperate to figure out what the heck is going on. I took another reading this morning and still the ammonia and nitrite levels were 0 and the other parameters were within a safe range. The cloudiness is also about 80-90% gone. It's still not crystal clear but definitely no longer cloudy. (btw I use the 5-in-1 water tester from TopFin).

Should I just remove the platys and let the tank cycle first before reintroducing them or is a fish in cycling process really doable?

 

[NotSoAggressiveAquatics]

Hi, thanks for the info! Yeah, I was planning on cycling the tank before adding the fish, but the bottle I have by TopFin claimed that fish can be added immediately and that it helps prevent new tank syndrome. As a first time freshwater tank owner, I thought this could save me a from messing up that process. I guess that I was fooled by bs marketing.

Unfortunately, I woke up this morning and one of the mixed platys (the one that was isolating itself) had died. I am getting a little desperate to figure out what the heck is going on. I took another reading this morning and still the ammonia and nitrite levels were 0 and the other parameters were within a safe range. The cloudiness is also about 80-90% gone. It's still not crystal clear but definitely no longer cloudy. (btw I use the 5-in-1 water tester from TopFin).

Should I just remove the platys and let the tank cycle first before reintroducing them or is a fish in cycling process really doable?

It’s definitely possible to do this with fish, unless you already have someone who can take them until the tank is done cycling then that’s probably the safest thing to do. First thing to figure out is what’s going on with your testing because there’s obviously something wrong in the water if you lost a fish and the others are stressed out. Test strips are notorious for being inaccurate but I doubt they would be totally inaccurate to the point of showing no readings. What I would do is take a sample of your water to petsmart and have them test it to double check that your test is reading the water right. And ask for the specific numbers because sometimes they just tell you that your water is “fine”. And this might seem obvious but I need to just double check that you are using water conditioner to dechlorinate your tap water before doing water changes right? I’d do a 25% water change for now just to help try and get rid of any toxins in the water until we can figure out what’s really happening

 

[SparkyJones]

Hi, thanks for the info! Yeah, I was planning on cycling the tank before adding the fish, but the bottle I have by TopFin claimed that fish can be added immediately and that it helps prevent new tank syndrome. As a first time freshwater tank owner, I thought this could save me a from messing up that process. I guess that I was fooled by bs marketing.

Unfortunately, I woke up this morning and one of the mixed platys (the one that was isolating itself) had died. I am getting a little desperate to figure out what the heck is going on. I took another reading this morning and still the ammonia and nitrite levels were 0 and the other parameters were within a safe range. The cloudiness is also about 80-90% gone. It's still not crystal clear but definitely no longer cloudy. (btw I use the 5-in-1 water tester from TopFin).

Should I just remove the platys and let the tank cycle first before reintroducing them or is a fish in cycling process really doable?

what are you going to do with the platys if you remove them? Put them in a different tank or container that also not cycled or do you have a cycled tank, or were you going to return them?

If returning them for now it would be best to not lose any more. the tank isn't cycled. However it's never made sense to me to take them out and keep them in another non--cycled tank. best to do fish in cycle instead. if you have another tank that is cycled that works too. a container of water that also isn't cycled is the same thing though and you might as well not move them.

Now, with fish in cycle, water changes are important, the isolating and the bullying or chasing and nipping behaviors are a sign of stress and that the water is bothering the fish, when they aren't stressed, they swim around and act pretty normal. But stressed, some get aggressive, others become lethargic and want to be left alone. When you see that, you need to make a water change, 25-50%. any time you see that type of behavior its the fish telling you its uncomfortable and they are unhappy. When in doubt change some water out. Water changes never hurt except the water bill.

As far as the pH up, what is the pH at to begin with that it requires the pH up? You list pH 7.5 but you don't say what it was before trying to raise it. did you raise it in the tank with the fish directly, or separately and then add the water to the tank?

When I fish in cycle I use 1 small fish per 10 gallons of water, something like a feeder guppy to a feeder goldfish size. I dont' use any plants. which will take nitrogen any way they can get it, ammonia, nitrites or nitrates. With plants, they will take what they can of the available nitrogen source, so it could in theory show zeros, but that doesn't mean there isn't any ammonia there, and with you raising the pH, theres going to be more free ammonia than if it were a lower pH which can cause stress if they are getting annoyed by it.
Plants, as I mentioned, During the day with light, they will use the nitrogen source, with the lights out they still use some, not just to keep alive, it's not really used for growth, so the nitrogen concentrations, regardless of the form it's in can go up overnight and then disappear after the lights get turned on and the plants get to work again, but that overnight period in the dark is where the stress events can be happening when you have plants. unless you have a lot of plants.

The cloud is likely the additives. But it's pretty normal regardless to get cloudy while cycling as the bacteria establishes and the tank is trying to balance out.

There really isn't a short cut to cycling with the exception of jump starting off an already cycled aquariums filter. the bottled bacteria they sell, is some sort of bacteria, but there's all kinds of bacteria and different in different places. what might work for one person, may not work for someone else depending on the bacteria that's available in their local area or what the bacteria is in the bottle exactly.

Bacteria is everywhere it can't be avoided, it will establish in time on its own. the fish comes with bacteria, inside and out for instance.

I don't fishless cycle. When I did cycle tanks, I did fish in and it wasn't that hard or rough on the fish following the rules until it's cycled.
1 fish per 10 gallons, keep it slow and low, then when in doubt change it out, or make a water change every week. in about a month it's cycled for the one fish, then you can go to 2, then 3, then 6, giving the bacteria colony that is small a couple days to grow to the number of fish before adding more, always testing and monitoring. this avoids getting a spike in ammonia or nitrites and if you do, the ability to water change until it passes. the bacteria colony will grow to meet the supply of ammonia the fish produce. the issue with cycling is it starts with a few, they multiply, over and over, until there's many. it's the starting thats slow.

With Fishless cycling, you're using pure ammonia, and it's going to put you in a place when you're done that you can stock pretty much what you want without worrying about a spike.

Jumpstarting of another established tanks filter works for a lot of people. I just run extra sponge filters and can drop them into a newly set up tank and not have to cycle. Some might Rinse a old dirty filter in tank water and dump that into a new set up tank, kind of similar to the bacteria in a bottle method. Except all the bacteria is local strains that thrive in your local area and they aren't "dormant" they are up and running doing their thing, they just need to anchor in and establish a colony.

Always think about wording for any product you are going to buy when you read it, for instance, that
"the bottle I have by TopFin claimed that fish can be added immediately and that it helps prevent new tank syndrome."

"Helps prevent", it doesn't just prevent it from happening. That's like them saying "this could work for you".

it's basically true in all cases that fish can be added immediately. How hard you want to work at it how many fish, volume of water, how many water changes, determines if they will live or die. But it's possible to do a 100% water change every day or even more often and keep ammonia nitrite and nitrates at zero for whatever many fish, and it will cycle eventually in a month or so.

So, just here at the end, I'd like to again say what is the pH you start with before using the pH up? Platys can do about pH6.8 to 8.5 with the pH 7.5 in the middle. but they don't do particularly terrible at pH 6.6 either. Kind of better to work with what you have if you can than to try to chase an ideal pH. The neos would like lower pH than 7.5 I'm sure. But I'm not sure you need to chase the pH, as much as you just need to keep an eye on carbonates and calcium and mineralization of the water.