New Cycle -- Ammonia Is At 8ppm!

[alliemac]

For starters, FISHLESS cycle. Only living thing in my 10 gallon is some plants.

Now, I'm a little worried because from what I've read your bacteria won't grow if you're ammonia is too high. They can't handle that much ammonia and just won't do anything. I was doing the raw shrimp method, but I'm guessing even one piece is too much. Last night I did a 20% water change just to start off with and added some prime to the new water. I also added stability, but I'm also seeing that stability doesn't help much in cycling so I'll keep that out of the mix.

I started cycling the tank on July 4th. I know it hasn't been that long but that's such a huge spike in 3 days. There are no signs of nitrites or nitrates yet. I'll do another ammonia test in two hours when I get home, but what do you think I should do?

Am I doing this wrong? Even after reading everything and knowing what turns into what, I feel so lost and hopeless. Dang. Any and all information helps!!

Oh! And I don't know if this has anything to do with the cycle at all, but I'm also using Seachem Flourish with the plants.

 

[DuaneV]

No need to worry, do a big water change. Like 50-75%. Every time your ammonia spikes up high like that, do a change. Personally, I always cycle with fish so I don't let it get high at all, you have nothing to worry about with no fish in there.

 

[alliemac]

No need to worry, do a big water change. Like 50-75%. Every time your ammonia spikes up high like that, do a change. Personally, I always cycle with fish so I don't let it get high at all, you have nothing to worry about with no fish in there.

Will having the ammonia that high make the cycling time longer?

 

[_Sara_]

Hello!!
Congratulations! You're tank is alive!!!!!

Anyway, high suffocates the bacteria, so, water change

No need to worry, do a big water change. Like 50-75%. Every time your ammonia spikes up high like that, do a change. Personally, I always cycle with fish so I don't let it get high at all, you have nothing to worry about with no fish in there.

as Duane mentioned, but also, add air!

You can do this by using those aeration stones or increasing the filter pump speed OR just during your water change by shaking it vigorously!

The cycling time may be affected, I am not quite sure by how much

Good luck!

 

[alliemac]

Hello!!
Congratulations! You're tank is alive!!!!!

Anyway, high ammonia suffocates the bacteria, so, water change

as Duane mentioned, but also, add air!

You can do this by using those aeration stones or increasing the filter pump speed OR just during your water change by shaking it vigorously!

Good luck!

I have my provided filter which has the waterfall effect and then on the opposite side of the tank I have an air stick that is about 8" long and attaches horizontally on the wall. I had read somewhere that air movement within the tank was a really good thing. And it looks really cool going up the side of the tank!

 

[DuaneV]

Will having the ammonia that high make the cycling time longer?

Yeah. Ammonia that high can cause problems and stall the nitrosomonas to take forever to grow, if at all. I'm not exactly sure what the highest level of ammonia you can have in your tank and still cycle okay, but 8's pretty high. Probably doesn't smell good either. lol

 

[trixity]

I have my provided filter which has the waterfall effect and then on the opposite side of the tank I have an air stick that is about 8" long and attaches horizontally on the wall. I had read somewhere that air movement within the tank was a really good thing. And it looks really cool going up the side of the tank!

I cycled my tank by dosing with very high ammonia levels. In my opiniom the bacteria WILL catch up and consume the ammonia. There's a thread here I'll have to find where an established member explains a method he and others have used with great success for a faster fishless cycle with plenty of BB. I'll add it in here when I find it. Most people say 2 ppm and I'm not saying they are wrong, but I have not found too much ammonia (excess of even 15 ppm) to stall a cycle. Just takes time for the bacteria to grow to the scale needed to consume it. Again, IMO.
Edit: here it is:
Fast Fishless Cycle.
I'm not saying this is the gospel truth and others are wrong, but it worked for me. I dosed to 4ppm first day and two days after for a total of 12(another source supplements info you can either do all ammonia at once or continue adding it regardless if the tank is processing it between doses, the latter takes longer but produces more lasting BB once it catches up)

 

[alliemac]

Yeah. Ammonia that high can cause problems and stall the nitrosomonas to take forever to grow, if at all. I'm not exactly sure what the highest level of ammonia you can have in your tank and still cycle okay, but 8's pretty high. Probably doesn't smell good either. lol

Oh, that must be the slightly weird smell in the tank is. I have a 2.5 gallon tank with my betta in it that I started before knowing about the cycle. His numbers have been good, but that's just because of the water changes I've been doing for him. However, with the bigger tank I want to make sure that it's 100% ready for him and there won't be any spikes.

 

[trixity]

Oh, that must be the slightly weird smell in the tank is. I have a 2.5 gallon tank with my betta in it that I started before knowing about the cycle. His numbers have been good, but that's just because of the water changes I've been doing for him. However, with the bigger tank I want to make sure that it's 100% ready for him and there won't be any spikes.

I updated my post with the thread link.

PS I definitely recommend cranking up the heat regardless of what you do as he recommends.
I used TSS+ instead of stability with no issues btw.

 

[alliemac]

I updated my post with the thread link.

PS I definitely recommend cranking up the heat regardless of what you do as he recommends.
I used TSS+ instead of stability with no issues btw.

I will have to find TSS+. I have seen it in a lot of posts but have no idea as to what it is. I have my tank at 82 degrees, do you think more or less?

Edit: Oh, I have the regular TSS, not the plus. Does that work? I got it when I first got my betta. I didn't know that's what everyone was talking about.

 

[trixity]

I will have to find TSS+. I have seen it in a lot of posts but have no idea as to what it is. I have my tank at 82 degrees, do you think more or less?

You can go higher, I did 85. The higher the temp the less Oxygen is available for the bacteria but as long as their is some surface turbulence as it sounds like you have they will grow faster at higher temperatures. I am definitely a proponent of beneficial bacteria products from a few brands. Some others apparently have shorter acting forms of bacteria that don't permanently establish in your filter media. So I would stick with TSS and/or stability. I have used both, but for the start of your fishless cycle I recommend TSS+. Vigorously shake the bottle of TSS or TSS+ (which just has a higher concentration of bacteria) and dump the entire bottle into the tank. Provided it is added 24 hours after using any water treatment.

 

[_Sara_]

You can go higher, I did 85. The higher the temp the less Oxygen is available for the bacteria but as long as their is some surface turbulence as it sounds like you have they will grow faster at higher temperatures. I am definitely a proponent of beneficial bacteria products from a few brands. Some others apparently have shorter acting forms of bacteria that don't permanently establish in your filter media. So I would stick with TSS and/or stability. I have used both, but for the start of your fishless cycle I recommend TSS+. Vigorously shake the bottle of TSS or TSS+ (which just has a higher concentration of bacteria) and dump the entire bottle into the tank. Provided it is added 24 hours after using any water treatment.

Bacteria can only tolerate so much heat or you'll just fry them.
Nitrosomonas (NH4 to NO2) has a temperature optimum between 68-86*F and 6-9pH
Nitrobactor (NO2 to NO3) optimum is 100*F and 7.9pH

 

[alliemac]

You can go higher, I did 85. The higher the temp the less Oxygen is available for the bacteria but as long as their is some surface turbulence as it sounds like you have they will grow faster at higher temperatures. I am definitely a proponent of beneficial bacteria products from a few brands. Some others apparently have shorter acting forms of bacteria that don't permanently establish in your filter media. So I would stick with TSS and/or stability. I have used both, but for the start of your fishless cycle I recommend TSS+. Vigorously shake the bottle of TSS or TSS+ (which just has a higher concentration of bacteria) and dump the entire bottle into the tank. Provided it is added 24 hours after using any water treatment.

My last water change was 25 hours ago so I raised the heat and added the TSS. How long should I wait to test the water? I’m going on vacation from Wednesday morning to Sunday evening. Should I dice up smaller pieces of shrimp and add it or leave the tank be for those days?

 

[trixity]

My last water change was 25 hours ago so I raised the heat and added the TSS. How long should I wait to test the water? I’m going on vacation from Wednesday morning to Sunday evening. Should I dice up smaller pieces of shrimp and add it or leave the tank be for those days?

This is where I’m not totally sure what to suggest but I’ll give it a go.
If a water test on Wednesday still shows at least 8ppm ammonia, and the bacteria are not processing large quantities of ammonia within 24 hour periods, that should be sufficient “food” while you are out of town. It is likely the BB will not be fully up and running, and so will not quickly exhaust the reserve of ammonia you have built up in the tank. I would not add more shrimp unless you notice the ppm going down and I would do tests every 24 hours. Personally, I recommend switching to a liquid, pure ammonia source (I use Dr. Tim’s but I’ve heard a “Kleen” brand recommended, there is probably something at your local hardware store). Liquid ammonia dosing allows you much more control over how much is being added and when, just get the right type that has no additives like perfumes or surfectants. I forget the drop number guide but it is in the cycling documentation on this website.

 

[Francine]

I also recommend using dr Tim’s... works great and much faster, and cleaner then adding food

 

[alliemac]

This is where I’m not totally sure what to suggest but I’ll give it a go.
If a water test on Wednesday still shows at least 8ppm ammonia, and the bacteria are not processing large quantities of ammonia within 24 hour periods, that should be sufficient “food” while you are out of town. It is likely the BB will not be fully up and running, and so will not quickly exhaust the reserve of ammonia you have built up in the tank. I would not add more shrimp unless you notice the ppm going down and I would do tests every 24 hours. Personally, I recommend switching to a liquid, pure ammonia source (I use Dr. Tim’s but I’ve heard a “Kleen” brand recommended, there is probably something at your local hardware store). Liquid ammonia dosing allows you much more control over how much is being added and when, just get the right type that has no additives like perfumes or surfectants. I forget the drop number guide but it is in the cycling documentation on this website.

After turning up the heat, doing a water change, and adding the TSS, I got my first readings of Nitrites and Nitrates and my PH went down. Thank you so much! Now time to keep an eye on it. I’ll be going on vacation for 5 days so I’ll have to figure out a source of ammonia for that time. I appreciate all the help!

 

[trixity]

After turning up the heat, doing a water change, and adding the TSS, I got my first readings of Nitrites and Nitrates and my PH went down. Thank you so much! Now time to keep an eye on it. I’ll be going on vacation for 5 days so I’ll have to figure out a source of ammonia for that time. I appreciate all the help!

Was the ammonia still at the max of the 8ppm reading? (Meaning it still could have gone down but not by a measurable amount)
You’re welcome by the way! I had an awful aquarium smell from prematurely rotting cholla wood that had to be addressed because I had guests coming to my apartment. When I did a water change after removing the wood (during a fishless cycle), my nitrite “stall” quickly resolved itself. I totally admit the nitrites would have converted to nitrates on their own. I learned though that a water change during a fishless cycle may not be the end of the world, as Duane and others have even indirectly agreed. I mean that while I disagree too much ammonia will stall a cycle, a water change won’t hurt things. I can’t get too scientific here, but as long as there is still an abundance of ammonia and nitrite, the new “space” introduced during a water change will probably help. When I did my water change after zero ammonia and max nitrites a day later I suddenly had a nitrate spike and cycled tank only a few days after that.
ANYWAY, long story short: don’t worry about PH, and if you can dose with liquid ammonia or if you have to use shrimp go ahead if your readings are any less than a solid 8 before you leave on your trip.

I should note that TSS recommends you wait 7 days after using before considering any water changes, just an FYI. 2 weeks is commonly mentioned here but 1 week is especially mandatory.

 

[alliemac]

Was the ammonia still at the max of the 8ppm reading? (Meaning it still could have gone down but not by a measurable amount)
You’re welcome by the way! I had an awful aquarium smell from prematurely rotting cholla wood that had to be addressed because I had guests coming to my apartment. When I did a water change after removing the wood (during a fishless cycle), my nitrite “stall” quickly resolved itself. I totally admit the nitrites would have converted to nitrates on their own. I learned though that a water change during a fishless cycle may not be the end of the world, as Duane and others have even indirectly agreed. I mean that while I disagree too much ammonia will stall a cycle, a water change won’t hurt things. I can’t get too scientific here, but as long as there is still an abundance of ammonia and nitrate, the new “space” introduced during a water change won’t hurt anything. When I did my water change after zero ammonia and max nitrites a day later I suddenly had a nitrate spike and cycled tank only a few days after that.
ANYWAY, long story short: don’t worry too much about PH, and if you can dose with liquid ammonia or if you have to use shrimp if your readings are any less than a solid 8 any time before you leave on your trip.

Trying to remember the numbers but when I made this post it was something like:
Ammonia: 8ppm
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 0
Ph: 8.8

And then today they looked like this:
Ammonia: 2ppm
Nitrites: .25ppm
Nitrates: 5ppm
Ph: 8

I know it’s still early for the results, but this is my first time seeing any nitrites or nitrates at all!

I had shrimp in there before and that’s why my readings were so high. I’m going to use maybe 1/4 of the shrimp piece instead while I’m away. That should allow enough I think.

 

[MN Mike]

For starters, FISHLESS cycle. Only living thing in my 10 gallon is some plants.

Now, I'm a little worried because from what I've read your bacteria won't grow if you're ammonia is too high. They can't handle that much ammonia and just won't do anything. I was doing the raw shrimp method, but I'm guessing even one piece is too much. Last night I did a 20% water change just to start off with and added some prime to the new water. I also added stability, but I'm also seeing that stability doesn't help much in cycling so I'll keep that out of the mix.

I started cycling the tank on July 4th. I know it hasn't been that long but that's such a huge spike in 3 days. There are no signs of nitrites or nitrates yet. I'll do another ammonia test in two hours when I get home, but what do you think I should do?

Am I doing this wrong? Even after reading everything and knowing what turns into what, I feel so lost and hopeless. Dang. Any and all information helps!!

Oh! And I don't know if this has anything to do with the cycle at all, but I'm also using Seachem Flourish with the plants.

I've had tremendous results with stability and prime. It just takes time. Yes, you probably want to get the ammonia down to at least 3 or 4 for stability to work properly. I'd recommend a 50 or 60% water change, then use stability and prime exactly as directed. That should help. You may also want to get some hornwort. It works miracles with ammonia spikes. Hope this helps. Time takes time.

 

[trixity]

Trying to remember the numbers but when I made this post it was something like:
Ammonia: 8ppm
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 0
Ph: 8.8

And then today they looked like this:
Ammonia: 2ppm
Nitrites: .25ppm
Nitrates: 5ppm
Ph: 8

I know it’s still early for the results, but this is my first time seeing any nitrites or nitrates at all!

I had shrimp in there before and that’s why my readings were so high. I’m going to use maybe 1/4 of the shrimp piece instead while I’m away. That should allow enough I think.

Wow, congrats! Your ammonia went down at least in part from the water change but regardless, these are good results. Especially with the nitrite and nitrates. Personally I would throw in a whole shrimp, or if you have time, grab a bottle of pure ammonia (Kleen) and dose to 8+ for your trip. It can take less than 36 hours for all your bacteria to die off without a source of ammonia, so despite all the warnings you’ve had about “too much ammonia” it’s definitely better safe than sorry during your trip to maintain your cycle’s infancy.
If your tank has started processing as much ammonia as I think it has, I would add more shrimp/ammonia than you’re thinking of right now. Things are speeding up...

 

[alliemac]

Wow, congrats! Your ammonia went down at least in part from the water change but regardless, these are good results. Especially with the nitrite and nitrates. Personally I would throw in a whole shrimp, or if you have time, grab a bottle of pure ammonia (Kleen) and dose to 8+ for your trip. It can take less than 36 hours for all your bacteria to die off without a source of ammonia, so despite all the warnings you’ve had about “too much ammonia” it’s definitely better safe than sorry during your trip to maintain your cycle’s infancy.

Thank you!! I’ll get some ammonia tomorrow. I’ve heard a lot of good things about pure ammonia and being able to pretty much control your amount.

 

[MN Mike]

well, congratulations! Your cycle is finally starting and will speed up exponentially. Glad to hear it!

 

[alliemac]

well, congratulations! Your cycle is finally starting and will speed up exponentially. Glad to hear it!

Thank you! Everyone here on Fishlore is so helpful and has so much information to offer. And I’ll look into Hornwort!

 

[trixity]

Thank you!! I’ll get some ammonia tomorrow. I’ve heard a lot of good things about pure ammonia and being able to pretty much control your amount.

Yea I have dr Tim’s which says 4 drops per gallon for 2 ppm as a reference. If your ammonia is really around 2ppm I would well exceed that for your 5day trip. The bacteria will dip into your reserve. There are estimated dosages on the site but if in doubt, wait a half hour between dosing and you will see what ppm you are at.

 

[alliemac]

Holy cow. This happened a lot faster than I thought. Nitrates and nitrates spiked in one night.

 

[trixity]

Holy cow. This happened a lot faster than I thought. Nitrates and nitrates spiked in one night.

I'm so happy for you. And the best part is you have a trip to help you pass the time. Get that ammonia back up before you leave as we discussed, and don't do any water changes. IMO the big change we.are waiting for now is for the nitrite consuming bacteria to reach critical mass. And for the record: I say no water changes not even because it would ruin things but because it throws off our results.

PS where are you going? lol

 

[alliemac]

I'm so happy for you. And the best part is you have a trip to help you pass the time. Get that ammonia back up before you leave as we discussed, and don't do any water changes. IMO the big change we.are waiting for now is for the nitrite consuming bacteria to reach critical mass. And for the record: I say no water changes not even because it would ruin things but because it throws off our results.

PS where are you going? lol

Already diced up a shrimp and put it in a mesh bag in the tank. The ammonia should spike shortly.

Also, headed to Pismo Beach for 5 days! Evey year we do a big family reunion around the weekend of the 15th and take all our trailers and toys to the beach.