Fin rot 100% water change?

[BaronVonMeow]

Hey guys,

I am fairly new to the fish keeping hobby and new to fishlore. My half-moon betta has had reoccurring fin rot from day one of me owning him. I tried using Primafix, but it is absolutely nothing and I now know Primafix is a big no-no. I finally decided it was time to try treating again when his face started turning white and his scales started to lose luster. I decided to go natural and use salt this time around. I have him in a 3-gallon bare bottom quarantine tank with a silk plant and a terracotta pot. Here is my question,

I have read a lot online about using salt and kept reading that a 100% water change after 24 hours is required. I am concerned about completing a 100% water change, which can be very stressful, on my already vulnerable fish. Is a 100% water completing necessary? I am concerned about exposing my sick fish to uncycled water, but also do not want to fail at curing this issue by not completely the necessary water changes.

Thank you for all the info and advice.
Fish newbie,

BaronVonMeow

 

[PascalKrypt]

The reason they advise 100% water changes is because in general the best treatment for fin rot is pristine water, and the best way to maintain that is by doing large, daily water changes, which is easier in a small tank. If you are nervous about the 100% change you can also do a 50% change, just keep up with daily changes.
Don't be nervous about keeping a betta in an uncycled tank, I do it all the time. Bettas have a low bioload and don't foul up water quickly. A daily water change routine is a perfectly adequate replacement of mechanical filtration (just make sure to clean out the tank bottom as well so no poop or detritus remains behind to decompose, that is why it is bare bottom).
If it makes you feel better, I am using this method right now on a betta girl whose analfin was lost to an unfortunate incident. She's been in there for some three weeks now (<1 gallon with a small anubias) and perfectly energetic. It is labour intensive though. I also advise against dosing heavy meds in anything smaller than a 2.5 gallon because dangerous mistakes in dosage are easily made when working with small volumes. If you have some proper lighting on the tank you can include floating plants that will function as filter for you and also provide some cover to make the fish feel at ease.

Make sure there are no drafts anywhere near the tank as small volumes can easily lead to temperature swings. Also cover the back and at least one side of the tank with black paper or a black bag or something similar, and put it on top of something dark. This makes bettas feel more sheltered in a bare tank.

(Personally I wouldn't even dose with salt but just try this routine first and possibly dose a mild antiseptic, but that is up to you).

Edit: Also just in case - it is *incredibly* important to temperature match water when doing large water changes of 50% or more, otherwise your fish will be temp shocked.

 

[Micpak]

My betta had finrot issues when I got him. I treated him with salt in a one gallon container with a ceramic hide for twoish weeks, 100% WCs every day. I just kept the container floating in his five gallon which had the heater to keep the temperature consistent. To avoid stress, I scooped him into a bowl while I dumped and refilled the container. He didn't show any signs of stress. As long as the temperature and water source are the same, I don't think your betta will mind too much.
He'll probably even enjoy having such clean water. A 20 minute water change isn't really a big deal if that's all that's going on in 24 hours. Low light and a secluded area will help keep him calm too.

 

[BaronVonMeow]

Thank you for the response, that makes me feel better, I hope to see improvement soon. He really started to go downhill fast this past week and I was really scared I was going to lose him.

 

[PascalKrypt]

Thank you for the response, that makes me feel better, I hope to see improvement soon. He really started to go downhill fast this past week and I was really scared I was going to lose him.

Since you said you are new to keeping fish, do you mind providing some info about your tank and fish and your care for both? We may be able to give you pointers in general that can help (now and in the future).

Also maybe a picture of the fish? Fin rot (as in, the bacterial disease) is actually not as common as often assumed and can be misidentified.

Edit: Actually, welcome to the site! haha, I totally missed out on that one ^^

 

[BaronVonMeow]

Sure, thanks for offering more advice.

Trying to get these photos gives me a deeper appreciation for fish photography. Man was it difficult to get clear(ish) photos.

I'll try to be conscience but clear. So lets start at the beginning, I got this betta a few months ago (his name is Greenbean) and wanted to try putting him in a community tank. Bad idea. I had him with 6 tetras in a 10 gallon tank. There was driftwood, live plants, moss balls, and rocks for the betta to rest in if he wanted. It was a gorgeous tank. All was well for a bit, but then the tetras started attacking my Greenbean! They had him pinned in a corner and were taking turns biting his fins, and I mean taking chunks out of them! Meanies! I immediately take the tetras out of the tank and return them to the fish store. Sadly, the damage had been done. Greenbean started to heal bad his damage, but never fully healed. After a few more weeks he started to get worst again. I treated him with Primafix, which I now know is a no-no. It didn't do a thing but he kept fighting. He didnt get better but wasn't getting any worst.

I was still determined to have him in a community tank. So this time I tried shrimp. I know I know I am stubborn. All has been going okay but it has been difficult to keep my shrimp fed with such a greedy betta around all the time.

Lets fast forward a few moooore weeks. It has now been 5 months since the tetra attack and he has still not recovered. I keep his water clean and do regular cleanings. He was my only fish at the time so he received the star treatment...I thought.

Last week, things escalated quickly. After attending Aquashella and purchasing a gorgeous piece of driftwood I added it to the tank for the shrimp to eat and enjoy (after soaking for 24+ hours). This was mistake #2. Greenbean started hiding as far away from the wood as possible and this is when his situation really progressed quickly. Knowing the first step to always "test the water" I did just that. This piece of driftwood dropped my pH from 7.8 to 6.8 in a matter of 2 days!!! I couldn't believe it! I quickly removed the driftwood from the tank and let things simmer for a while but again, the damage was done. Greenbean's fins looked completed shredded and most scary of all...he started to lose color and turn white (can be seen on his face and some small spots on his side)! This totally freaked me out so I purchased a 3-gallon quarantine tank and have been keep his water salted. I do not see any more progression as of yet but also do not see improvement.

He is happily swimming around and seems like himself again. He is even making bubble nests in the q-tank which he did not do in the 10-gallon.

So iiiiiidkkkkk. I just want him to be healthy over all else.

My plan is to keep doing the saltwater for 10 days but slowly decrease the amount of salt until it is back to freshwater on day 10. I am currently dosing 1.5tsp for every gallon and completing a 50% water change every 24 hours. I am keeping the temp. at 78.

I also may give up on the community tank idea...he seems happier when he's alone and I might get some shrimp babies without a hungry betta around.

So not concise at all, but this little guy has been through a lot with me already and I feel like a complete failure that I can not seem to keep him healthy.

Any advice is appreciated.

 

[PascalKrypt]

Oh wow, yes that sounds like quite a rodeo. All I can say is, we live and we learn. Don't feel like a failure for learning things the hard way, it is something we have all experienced. Fish care is made out to be an easy thing but it really isn't. It is complicated caring for a creature in an artificial biotope that it depends on to stay alive, there are so many things that can go wrong and you've clearly tried very hard to make things right. Which I'm sure is the only reason you still have him (like the quick thinking on the driftwood and PH testing the water). That was probably a close shave.

If these attached pictures are current I wouldn't be too worried. He doesn't look that bad at all! Just give him time, rest and indeed clean water. Be mindful with salt that water evaporated but salt does not, so the concentration in the water tends to increase over time (so add some more fresh water with a lesser salt concentration every few days) unless you have a lid so tight fitting that the tank is extremely humid.
Most bettas are happiest on their own, so if you can give him a small tank by himself with a low water level, you'll make him perfectly happy. You can toss in a baby shrimp from your colony every now and then for him to chase

 

[BaronVonMeow]

ohhhh man. The saga continues. Why am I so terrible at this hobby? So after the 10 day salt treatment my betta was looking bomb! He was starting to grow his fins back, all of his color returned and he was happily making bubble nests. I was so happy! I finally did something right!...untilllll.....why oh why did I do this. ah. I added a single oto catfish for algae control. I thought it would be fine, they are small sweet and just so darn good at eating algae. Well....the next morning Greenbeans fins were COMPLETELY shredded, worst than before the salt treatment ..It looks different this time though, more like bites...so I attributed the fin damage to him freaking out about the new tank mate and biting his own fins. I decided to give them some more time to see what would happen #lessismore right?

After work that same day I noticed the oto has produced a TON of poop. The whole bottom was covered! This made me really nervous because of the small volume of water and the vulnerable state of my betta. I siphoned out the poop thinking that would be good enough. Oh I also removed the oto and moved him to my other (Larger) betta tank. I just had a bad feeling about it.

Just for fun I tested the water in Greenbeans tank and it was at 6ppm!!!!!! I retested because there is NO WAY! But yupppp sixteen tests later I was convinced something was wrong. What how? Literally how is this possible! I FREAKED OUT and started to prepare another tank for my betta to find refuge in. I am so upset, I feel so dumb. My betta was looking so well and gaining health and now I almost killed him again. He is in a bucket with water from my other tank and I am recycling his tank...

The only thing I can think is I reset the nitrogen cycle when I overloaded the tank with the single tiny itty bitty oto. *sigh*.

Any advice you can share? I am feeling defended. All of this work and I just keep messing it up. My poor fish!

I want him to be healthy and live a long life but with all of this moving around, treatments, and ammonia spikes I feel really nervous about his quality of life. Am I overthinking this? Something please talk me off this ledge...

 

[rhyan]

BaronVonMeow Honestly I scratched my head and face palmed reading your agenda. Greenbeans should be thinking now: Dude seriously!? Not again! Kidding aside, I think he wasn't meant for a community tank or have any tank mates since he ended up going worse, just keep him by himself, do water change and that aquarium salt if you can skip it at the meantime since I think you are killing him by putting some of it in his tank where we know he is a fresh water fish, I know that salts are just meant for a quick remedy not a long term one since it can damage him internally. I know you are a good owner and you love him so much so now try to avoid putting any chemicals in his tank just clean conditioned water and avoid any fish you, can add a moss balls or live plants if you are worried about algae growing in the tank. He might heal for several weeks so be patient and don't do anything that might worsen his condition I know he also loves you so he keeps fighting for you.

 

[PascalKrypt]

ohhhh man. The saga continues. Why am I so terrible at this hobby? So after the 10 day salt treatment my betta was looking bomb! He was starting to grow his fins back, all of his color returned and he was happily making bubble nests. I was so happy! I finally did something right!...untilllll.....why oh why did I do this. ah. I added a single oto catfish for algae control. I thought it would be fine, they are small sweet and just so darn good at eating algae. Well....the next morning Greenbeans fins were COMPLETELY shredded, worst than before the salt treatment ..It looks different this time though, more like bites...so I attributed the fin damage to him freaking out about the new tank mate and biting his own fins. I decided to give them some more time to see what would happen #lessismore right?

After work that same day I noticed the oto has produced a TON of poop. The whole bottom was covered! This made me really nervous because of the small volume of water and the vulnerable state of my betta. I siphoned out the poop thinking that would be good enough. Oh I also removed the oto and moved him to my other (Larger) betta tank. I just had a bad feeling about it.

Just for fun I tested the water in Greenbeans tank and it was at 6ppm!!!!!! I retested because there is NO WAY! But yupppp sixteen tests later I was convinced something was wrong. What how? Literally how is this possible! I FREAKED OUT and started to prepare another tank for my betta to find refuge in. I am so upset, I feel so dumb. My betta was looking so well and gaining health and now I almost killed him again. He is in a bucket with water from my other tank and I am recycling his tank...

The only thing I can think is I reset the nitrogen cycle when I overloaded the tank with the single tiny itty bitty oto. *sigh*.

Any advice you can share? I am feeling defended. All of this work and I just keep messing it up. My poor fish!

I want him to be healthy and live a long life but with all of this moving around, treatments, and ammonia spikes I feel really nervous about his quality of life. Am I overthinking this? Something please talk me off this ledge...

*starts talking*
Don't worry! Don't despair! We've all been there!
Oh boy, don't get me start on all the poor decisions I've made. Like I said, we live and learn.

Do you have a picture of this fish? I have some doubts whether that is an oto (they are often misidentified in shops).
And if it is an oto, keeping it by itself is cruel. They need to be in tanks that have a decent amount of natural algae growth (most oto's won't eat anything else) and they are shy and timid fish and need others of their kind, 4 or 5 at the very least. Because of this they actually aren't suitable for anything below a 20 gallon (in my opinion about long-term keeping, even though they are so small).
But let's see first if it is even an oto at all. Because some of the fish it is mistaken for often can really do a number on other fish... perhaps your betta didn't bite its own tail.

6ppm in one day? From one fish? That makes me doubt even more it was an oto, that seems pretty impossible... are you sure there wasn't ammonia present before you put the fish in?

 

[ap4lmtree]

I am fairly new to the fish keeping hobby and new to fishlore. My half-moon betta has had reoccurring fin rot from day one of me owning him. I tried using Primafix, but it is absolutely nothing and I now know Primafix is a big no-no. I finally decided it was time to try treating again when his face started turning white and his scales started to lose luster. I decided to go natural and use salt this time around. I have him in a 3-gallon bare bottom quarantine tank with a silk plant and a terracotta pot. Here is my question,

I don't think primafix will help you. I tried malafix different times for betta fin rott, and I am not sure if it progressed the fin rott even more or if it did nothing. Aquarium salt on the other hand has worked for me sometimes. 1.5 tsp per gallon is fine. However, you definitely should not use aquarium salt with an oto catfish. I had a sick corydoras catfish that I treated with I think 1tsp of salt, but it was only short term. However, it is not a good idea to treat catfish with salt.

You can do 100% water change for betta fish. I have done so all the time. You shouldn't do it with small community fish though. I forgot exactly why; however, it might be too much water difference at one time. I have had harlequin rasboras die soon after doing too many 100% water changes. However, bettas can handle it, and it is absolutely no problem for them.

For cycling a tank, I recommend Tetra Safe Start.

For moss balls, I have had bad luck with them, and they have always ended up becoming rotten for me. You might want to smell yours to see if it is still healthy; otherwise, that might be a source of bad water issue or fin rot. Other plants have never given me an issue though.

If you can stop the fin rott with aquarium salt or furan-2 + kanaplex or if it stopped already, then I would recommend vitachem. I stopped fin rott before, but the fin wouldn't really grow back much or would do it slowly. However, when I started using vitachem, I noticed more growth quicker.

 

[BaronVonMeow]

BaronVonMeow Honestly I scratched my head and face palmed reading your agenda. Greenbeans should be thinking now: Dude seriously!? Not again! Kidding aside, I think he wasn't meant for a community tank or have any tank mates since he ended up going worse, just keep him by himself, do water change and that aquarium salt if you can skip it at the meantime since I think you are killing him by putting some of it in his tank where we know he is a fresh water fish, I know that salts are just meant for a quick remedy not a long term one since it can damage him internally. I know you are a good owner and you love him so much so now try to avoid putting any chemicals in his tank just clean conditioned water and avoid any fish you, can add a moss balls or live plants if you are worried about algae growing in the tank. He might heal for several weeks so be patient and don't do anything that might worsen his condition I know he also loves you so he keeps fighting for you.

Thank you so much for the kind words. It really kept me going in a hard time. Greenbean's tank is finally cycled (yay!) and he is doing fine. Still just a sickly guy. He has a large wound on his side that will not heal and he is continually fighting off something that is turning him white. He does best with salt in his water but I fear he will get organ damage so I take him off salt as long as I can until he declines again. *Sigh* He is in good spirits though and seems to be enjoying his life. I did add a plant in there for him to enjoy, I figure he is more important than the plant so I don't mind if the plant dies from the salt treatments (it has not thus far btw).

Anyways, thank you for the kind words again. It really meant a lot.

 

[rhyan]

Good to hear that after a while there's a progress to his tank, yet he's condition still hasn't change a lot. Can you snap some pictures of him for us to see if the discoloration is his natural color, some infections or any worse thing he got after those that happened to him (knock on wood hope he's just stress).

 

[rhyan]

I don't think primafix will help you. I tried malafix different times for betta fin rott, and I am not sure if it progressed the fin rott even more or if it did nothing. Aquarium salt on the other hand has worked for me sometimes. 1.5 tsp per gallon is fine. However, you definitely should not use aquarium salt with an oto catfish. I had a sick corydoras catfish that I treated with I think 1tsp of salt, but it was only short term. However, it is not a good idea to treat catfish with salt.

You can do 100% water change for betta fish. I have done so all the time. You shouldn't do it with small community fish though. I forgot exactly why; however, it might be too much water difference at one time. I have had harlequin rasboras die soon after doing too many 100% water changes. However, bettas can handle it, and it is absolutely no problem for them.

For cycling a tank, I recommend Tetra Safe Start.

For moss balls, I have had bad luck with them, and they have always ended up becoming rotten for me. You might want to smell yours to see if it is still healthy; otherwise, that might be a source of bad water issue or fin rot. Other plants have never given me an issue though.

If you can stop the fin rott with aquarium salt or furan-2 + kanaplex or if it stopped already, then I would recommend vitachem. I stopped fin rott before, but the fin wouldn't really grow back much or would do it slowly. However, when I started using vitachem, I noticed more growth quicker.

Hi!? just noticed you mentioned about your luck with moss balls, I think they rot away if they are exposed in too much light or direct sunlight.