Did I lose my cycle?! Or false reading...?

[PizzaStina]

Hi there,

I had a 10 gallon tank going strong for 2 years (4 GloFish Tetras and a nerite snail). All my fish died off slowly but one, snail remained alive too, so 4 weeks ago, I bought myself a 20 gallon and kept the 10 gallon to keep around as a quarantine tank/just a second tank to have once the 20 gal gets all it's fish in there. I swapped out half the media in my HOB filter with the media in the established 10 gal, and added a layer of gravel from that tank as well, thinking that should instantly cycle the new 20 gal. Put my one surviving fish in that tank right away, kept the snail in the 10 gal to keep an ammonia source in there, and then got 5 new fish for the 20 gal. But I think I messed up because my ammonia wasn't quite at 0 at first and then all of the fish except one of the new ones I had bought died within the first 48 hours.

About 2 days after this whole disaster I noticed my ammonia was now actually reading 0 on the 20 gal. So my bad, I got too impatient and should have waited those couple of days to add new fish, I figured. But then I noticed the one surviving fish definitely had fin rot. I happened to have some Kanaplex on hand so I dosed the tank as instructed; but a couple of days after finishing the treatment, my ammonia levels began to rise.

My fish was still living, and it had started to eat a little again, so I thought it must be a false reading. I've been doing 20-25% water changes weekly thinking the tank had been cycled instantly using some established media.

Then, 2 weeks ago, I got my dead fish refunded and got 5 new ones to place in the 10 gallon tank to quarantine before adding them to the 20. I moved my snail in the 20 gal so that if I needed to treat this quarantine tank for anything the snail wouldn't be harmed. These fish are all super healthy and thriving. Things don't seem to be going so well in the 20 gal, though. The one fish in there stopped eating again, and it's been a week that he hasn't eaten a thing; it's tail is completely gone and I can't even tell if its really growing back. It looks so skinny, small, dull and frail. The snail is still fine, though, seemingly. Ammonia is still reading as slightly there, but last week, I tested 0 nitrites and 5 nitrates, which is odd to me because 2 years ago I did a fishless cycle on the 10 gal that took MONTHS before I got any nitrates and even then I had to run some ammonia remover through the filter to get it completely down to 0. Added fish after that and they lived 2 years...

I am now convinced that maybe my 20 gallon never really properly cycled, OR it did but the Kanaplex killed the cycle (even though the company claims it doesn't?). It's pretty clear looking at my fish that the 10 gal is well established and healthier for them. So this morning I moved my one poor frail and starving fish and the snail into the 10 gal which I'm hoping might restore their health.

I just find the 20 gal test readings strange though.

Should I do another half-and-half swap of the filter media and add SafeStart to try to kick start this thing or will that ruin the colony in my 10 gal...? Just very frustrating as now my 10 gal is kinda overstocked and I really want to get these guys into the 20 gal.

 

[cjcummings]

The oversight here was that you had a 10 gallon tank that had several fishes in the beginning. You mentioned that they slowly died off and you were down to 1 fish. As your fish population dwindled, so did the beneficial bacteria where in the end, it was enough to support one fish's bioload instead of the original 4 you had in the beginning.

So when you transferred the media and gravel, your setup was really only able to handle the same bioload of that 1 fish. When you added the 5 new fish straight away, the system could not support the additional 5X bioload right away which may be the reason of the early deaths in the 20 gallon.

 

[fishywoo]

I don't know much about safe start, I use seachem stability. It's possible the increased bioload was too much for the beneficial bacteria to catch up. Unless your adding media for 20 gallons to a 20 gallon tank, it won't fully jump start on its own.

I never used kanaplex outside of a hospital tank, so I don't know if that played a factor, but maybe?

 

[PizzaStina]

The bioload was something I thought about too. But when I added my 5 new fish to the 10 gal they all lived and are doing great; and keep in mind that tank had only had a snail in it for a couple of weeks; before that, just one fish for a month. Just seems odd. And also odd that my 20 gal has been reading as having some ammonia for 2 weeks now with only 1 fish surviving in it...

Maybe I should try to just run a full fishless cycle on the 20 gal? I have pure powdered ammonia I could use. I just dread it taking months as my 10 gal did.

 

[Fishfur]

The bioload was something I thought about too. But when I added my 5 new fish to the 10 gal they all lived and are doing great; and keep in mind that tank had only had a snail in it for a couple of weeks; before that, just one fish for a month. Just seems odd. And also odd that my 20 gal has been reading as having some ammonia for 2 weeks now with only 1 fish surviving in it...

Maybe I should try to just run a full fishless cycle on the 20 gal? I have pure powdered ammonia I could use. I just dread it taking months as my 10 gal did.

What test results exactly are you getting in the 20? What’s the pH and temp?

 

[PizzaStina]

What test results exactly are you getting in the 20? What’s the pH and temp?

When I checked last week just before a water change, I had about .25 ammonia (I have one of those Ammonia Alert readers in the tank too which has been consistently around that level as well for 2 weeks), 0 nitrites, and about 5 nitrates.

Temp is 78, pH I have not tested but I figure should be the same/stable as my 10 gal since I take water from the same source... but maybe I should test and compare.

 

[Fishfur]

When I checked last week just before a water change, I had about .25 ammonia (I have one of those Ammonia Alert readers in the tank too which has been consistently around that level as well for 2 weeks), 0 nitrites, and about 5 nitrates.

Temp is 78, pH I have not tested but I figure should be the same/stable as my 10 gal since I take water from the same source... but maybe I should test and compare.

The ammonia alert gadgets aren’t always as accurate as one might wish and are not a substitute for testing the water directly. pH is useful to know always because it’s easy to determine how much NH3 is actually in the water if you know the pH, temperature and a total ammonia test reading.

 

[PizzaStina]

The ammonia alert gadgets aren’t always as accurate as one might wish and are not a substitute for testing the water directly. pH is useful to know always because it’s easy to determine how much NH3 is actually in the water if you know the pH, temperature and a total ammonia test reading.

Yeah even doing the API test I was getting some ammonia for sure (about .25). My ammonia alert in the 10 gal is very obviously yellow.

I'll run a pH test...

 

[Littlebudda]

Always check ph until you get constant readings for that tank week after week my 4 tanks range from 7.2 to 8.4 and all water comes from the same source.
I really think you over did it with adding so many fish. What type of fish did you add? And what fish was there? Even using seeded media you need to treat it like a fish in cycle,
You have gone from one fish to six if they are similar fish of similar size you have just increased you bioload by 500%. As your BB increase you can add higher numbers as you have a larger population so they breed quicker to catch up.
Even when I started my 330gal I cycled with 5 fish when I added new fish I only doubled the bioload for the first 2-3 additions, Now I have no worries adding 50 fish at once because that won’t even double my bioload.

 

[PizzaStina]

Always check ph until you get constant readings for that tank week after week my 4 tanks range from 7.2 to 8.4 and all water comes from the same source.
I really think you over did it with adding so many fish. What type of fish did you add? And what fish was there? Even using seeded media you need to treat it like a fish in cycle,
You have gone from one fish to six if they are similar fish of similar size you have just increased you bioload by 500%. As your BB increase you can add higher numbers as you have a larger population so they breed quicker to catch up.
Even when I started my 330gal I cycled with 5 fish when I added new fish I only doubled the bioload for the first 2-3 additions, Now I have no worries adding 50 fish at once because that won’t even double my bioload.

Yeah so my 20 gal looks to be about a pH of 6.8, while my 10 is a 7.4...

I have read that keeping it above 7 is ideal for BB growth. Anything I can do to get it there while I run a fishless cycle...?

 

[Littlebudda]

Yeah so my 20 gal looks to be about a pH of 6.8, while my 10 is a 7.4...

I have read that keeping it above 7 is ideal for BB growth. Anything I can do to get it there while I run a fishless cycle...?

I’m not a big believer in trying to change ph it tends to lead to trouble further down the track when it comes to keeping things stable as long as your not wildly out (5.5 or 8.5) you should be pretty good to leave it alone. The less we muck around with the easier your tank will be in the long run.
As for fishless cycle I don’t do them never have and personally I don’t trust that you get the best bacteria built up, I’ve seen so many stories of people cycling and then when they add fish things go off the rails. This is just my opinion but I believe adding fish slow to a new uncycled tank and lots of plants is the best way it’s all about patience.

 

[PizzaStina]

I’m not a big believer in trying to change ph it tends to lead to trouble further down the track when it comes to keeping things stable as long as your not wildly out (5.5 or 8.5) you should be pretty good to leave it alone. The less we muck around with the easier your tank will be in the long run.
As for fishless cycle I don’t do them never have and personally I don’t trust that you get the best bacteria built up, I’ve seen so many stories of people cycling and then when they add fish things go off the rails. This is just my opinion but I believe adding fish slow to a new uncycled tank and lots of plants is the best way it’s all about patience.

Ok yeah the pH seems to be in range.

I fishless cycled my 10 gallon and while it took forever, I was able to add 5 fish and a snail all at once and all were fine, ammonia always stayed 0. Same thing just happened 2 weeks ago when I put 5 new fish in.

I worry about even adding one fish at a time in my 20 gal because the one fish that survived it lost it's whole tail fin and is still refusing to eat. It really doesn't look great.

 

[Littlebudda]

What sort of fish is it?

 

[Fishfur]

Yeah so my 20 gal looks to be about a pH of 6.8, while my 10 is a 7.4...

I have read that keeping it above 7 is ideal for BB growth. Anything I can do to get it there while I run a fishless cycle...?

The nitrifying bacteria we rely on grow best and fastest at a pH about 8.3. Drop that to 7.5 and they’re about half as fast, by 7 even slower and by 6 they‘re dormant.

So if you want fast, push the pH up to at least 8, which can be adjusted back down when you’re done. Baking soda will do the trick nicely - don’t go nuts with it - roughly one level teaspoon should bump 5 gallons of water up by one full point.

Just so you know, at a temperature of 78F, pH 7.4 and assuming the ammonia is .25ppm, you’d actually have only .0037 ppm of NH3 and the remaining tiny amount is NH4, ammonium, which is not toxic to fish. Raising the pH will convert more of the NH4 into NH3 and if you can, jacking the temperature up also speeds things up as the bacteria like it warm - 86 F would be good if you can do it.

 

[PizzaStina]

The nitrifying bacteria we rely on grow best and fastest at a pH about 8.3. Drop that to 7.5 and they’re about half as fast, by 7 even slower and by 6 they‘re dormant.

So if you want fast, push the pH up to at least 8, which can be adjusted back down when you’re done. Baking soda will do the trick nicely - don’t go nuts with it - roughly one level teaspoon should bump 5 gallons of water up by one full point.

Just so you know, at a temperature of 78F, pH 7.4 and assuming the ammonia is .25ppm, you’d actually have only .0037 ppm of NH3 and the remaining tiny amount is NH4, ammonium, which is not toxic to fish. Raising the pH will convert more of the NH4 into NH3 and if you can, jacking the temperature up also speeds things up as the bacteria like it warm - 86 F would be good if you can do it.

Ah. So actually the problematic tank's pH reading is 6.8. So temp 78, pH 6.8 and ammonia .25. Where does that put me toxicity wise...?

 

[Fishfur]

So low it is barely existent but in actual numbers, .001ppm.

Being the curious thing that I am, it might be interesting to see what your tap water tests at, right out of the tap, for pH and anything else you’ve got (GH, KH,) and also NH3,NO2 and NO3?

 

[PizzaStina]

So low it is barely existent but in actual numbers, .001ppm.

Being the curious thing that I am, it might be interesting to see what your tap water tests at, right out of the tap, for pH and anything else you’ve got (GH, KH,) and also NH3,NO2 and NO3?

I haven't tested this just yet, but I do know that in the past I've gotten some ammonia readings in my water out of the tap - lik around .25 ammonia. pH I would have to test and I don't have a test kit for GH, KH etc...

However something interesting just happened that I am wondering about. I decided on Friday to just start running a fishless cycle on the 20 gal, so I dosed Fritz ammonia enough to get it up to 2ppm, and dumped a bottle of SafeStart in the HOB filter after doing a partial water change. Cranked the heat up to 86F as suggested above - but I didn't have any baking soda on hand, so I held off on dosing that. Today, 72 hours later, my ammonia is reading as 1ppm, so that's a good sign something is happening. I bought baking soda to have on hand but before dosing any I ran another pH test and now, the pH in that tank is way higher than when I tested it on Thursday. Reading as a solid 8.2 now. The 10 gal that is housing fish remains at a steady 7.4.

But hey, I guess BB like higher pH, so that's good for my cycling, but I am wondering what exactly raised the pH so much? Could it have been simply dosing ammonia and cranking the heat?

And I am hoping once it's done cycling that the pH will lower to a number closer to what the 10 gal is at so that I can move my fish into the 20 gal without shocking them. But if it remains high, should I do anything to lower it? Or perhaps acclimate the fish in some way as to not shock them...?

 

[Littlebudda]

But if it remains high, should I do anything to lower it? Or perhaps acclimate the fish in some way as to not shock them...?

I always drip acclimate all my live stock over several hours when moving from tank to tank as my ph and nitrates are vastly different in each tank and never have any shock issues. I normally do 3-4 hrs of dripping

 

[Fishfur]

I haven't tested this just yet, but I do know that in the past I've gotten some ammonia readings in my water out of the tap - lik around .25 ammonia. pH I would have to test and I don't have a test kit for GH, KH etc...

However something interesting just happened that I am wondering about. I decided on Friday to just start running a fishless cycle on the 20 gal, so I dosed Fritz ammonia enough to get it up to 2ppm, and dumped a bottle of SafeStart in the HOB filter after doing a partial water change. Cranked the heat up to 86F as suggested above - but I didn't have any baking soda on hand, so I held off on dosing that. Today, 72 hours later, my ammonia is reading as 1ppm, so that's a good sign something is happening. I bought baking soda to have on hand but before dosing any I ran another pH test and now, the pH in that tank is way higher than when I tested it on Thursday. Reading as a solid 8.2 now. The 10 gal that is housing fish remains at a steady 7.4.

But hey, I guess BB like higher pH, so that's good for my cycling, but I am wondering what exactly raised the pH so much? Could it have been simply dosing ammonia and cranking the heat?

And I am hoping once it's done cycling that the pH will lower to a number closer to what the 10 gal is at so that I can move my fish into the 20 gal without shocking them. But if it remains high, should I do anything to lower it? Or perhaps acclimate the fish in some way as to not shock them...?

I don’t know why the pH would have risen so much - but when the cycle is done you usually do a very large water change which should return the pH to what’s normal for the tap water or close to it.

Is there any rock or decor in the tank that might be leaching calcium? If there is, that would raise pH to some degree.

 

[PizzaStina]

I do have plenty of decor. Just fake coral rocks and fake plants. They have been covered in biofilm for a minute. Not sure what that might mean.

Good point the water change would bring it down.

I've never drip acclimated, always just done the bag floating. I'll have to look up how to do it.

 

[Littlebudda]

I've never drip acclimated, always just done the bag floating. I'll have to look up how to do it.

Just use a airline with a flow adjustment on it put live stock in bucket with original water, start water running through airline into bucket with livestock, adjust flow so it drips 1-2 drops a second (or as fast as you like) keep an eye on it so I it doesn’t overflow, when ready net livestock and add to new tank. You want to be aiming for the water in bucket to be at least 20:80 (original:new tank)