Conditioners Don't Treat Ammonia, But DO Treat Chloramine?

[JustAFishServant]

This makes no sense. Reading around here folks say that dechlorinators who state it removes or detoxifies ammonia is apparently false, but that it removes chloramine, chlorine, and some even say it removes/detoxifies nitrite or nitrate which means that Seachem, API, Fritz, and many other dechlorinator brands lie in your face. Something they could easily get sued for.

Chloramine IS ammonia mixed with chlorine. So if folks state it's a myth, then why do you state it removes chloramine? That makes no sense.

If you want your statements to match you'd have to say that Prime and similar ADD ammonia. If it doesn't detoxify ammonia but removes chlorine, chloramine a mix of the two, then dechlorinators that state removal/detoxification break the bond of ammonia/chlorine, remove the chlorine, then leave the ammonia in your tank.

Can anyone explain with real science, instead of claiming senseless matters?

Sorry if it sounds rude, but it's so confusing.

Thanks all

 

[86 ssinit]

What theyre says is prime detoxifies chloramine chlorine and ammonia. Not removes it. Chloramine and chlorine will air off in about 24 hrs. So these additives detoxify it for 24 or 48hrs. Now ammonia is still there it’s just not lethal for 48 hrs. So for high ammonia you will have to do more water changes to get rid of it.

 

[SparkyJones]

people arguing semantics of the word "removes".

At this point Seachem, Fritz now went with "detoxifies", while API is using the word "removes". with the caveat "This unique formula binds with ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate rendering them non-toxic and allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them." it's what they all said it did, Just over the years, Seachem and Fritz moved away from the term "removes".


any of these products removes chlorine and the chlorine aspect of chloramine, freeing up the ammonia which is then bound in a non-toxic form until the biofilter can get rid of it. A basic dechlorinator would break chloramine, but it would NOT detoxify the ammonia.

 

[ProudPapa]

What theyre says is prime detoxifies chloramine chlorine and ammonia. Not removes it. Chloramine and chlorine will air off in about 24 hrs. So these additives detoxify it for 24 or 48hrs. Now ammonia is still there it’s just not lethal for 48 hrs. So for high ammonia you will have to do more water changes to get rid of it.

No I'm confused. I thought chloramine doesn't evaporate in 24 hours like chlorine does.

 

[86 ssinit]

Lol yes this is a fun topic . My understanding is chloramine will have the chlorine part evaporate but the ammonia may still be there. That’s the ammonia being detoxified. Now I’ve also read that this detoxified ammonia can’t be eaten by the bacteria in the detoxified stage and need that to wear off before the bacteria will eat it. Though not sure about that.
For me I use none of these additives. Never have. I use an undercounter charcoal type filter to remove all of that and any heavy metals. Only time I’ve had problems is when the water company did something to the water. For those times I do use prime.

 

[Dunk2]

This makes no sense. Reading around here folks say that dechlorinators who state it removes or detoxifies ammonia is apparently false, but that it removes chloramine, chlorine, and some even say it removes/detoxifies nitrite or nitrate which means that Seachem, API, Fritz, and many other dechlorinator brands lie in your face.

It might make more sense to you once you realize that different people have different opinions, perspectives and motivations for most everything.

 

[KingOscar]

No I'm confused. I thought chloramine doesn't evaporate in 24 hours like chlorine does.

Right. That's why chloramine is favored over chlorine for water treatment... it remains stable for longer periods.

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The onus of proof for any of the detoxifying claims lie with those making the claims, not those who question them. As far as I'm aware no studies have been released which can prove them. Maybe someone here knows better and can enlighten us.

That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

 

[86 ssinit]

Right. That's why chloramine is favored over chlorine for water treatment... it remains stable for longer periods.

----------------

The onus of proof for any of the detoxifying claims lie with those making the claims, not those who question them. As far as I'm aware no studies have been released which can prove them. Maybe someone here knows better and can enlighten us.

That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Got to say I never had any of these products when I started. The filter pictured above is an antique 40+yrs old. Ok I do change the charcoal part every year .

There are no regulations on these things and nobody checking if they do anything. If they can sell it they will. I just saw API is now selling betta water . Wish I would’ve thought of that WAIT how about BETTER betta water!!!! Now if I can get seachem to back me I’ll be rich!!!

 

[ruud]

Dechlorinators is a fine example of what can happen when legal and marketing professionals meet at the coffee machine and nobody from R&D is around.

Seachem Prime... anecdotes about fish deaths due to ammonia are hard to find. Ammonia is in most situations not very toxic; and if it is, it kills slowly; and chances are, the situation has changed before it gets lethal (e.g. ph has dropped, bacteria have multiplied). Hence, it is fairly easy to make claims.

I'm working on MagicSubstrate myself. It captures nutrients from the water column and channels it to plant roots. Plant growth guaranteed.

 

[ProudPapa]

. . . Seachem Prime... anecdotes about fish deaths due to ammonia are hard to find. Ammonia is in most situations not very toxic; and if it is, it kills slowly; and chances are, the situation has changed before it gets lethal (e.g. ph has dropped, bacteria have multiplied). Hence, it is fairly easy to make claims.

I'm working on MagicSubstrate myself. It captures nutrients from the water column and channels it to plant roots. Plant growth guaranteed.

Isn't that dependent on pH?

 

[ruud]

Isn't that dependent on pH?

MagicSubstrate? Just a little

Ammonia? ph dependent amongst others.

Anyways, I tried to find the reference of what Seachem and the others actually contain, but could not find it. But I believe they all contain a sulfite and nothing else.

The basic reaction is something like this:
Cl2 + SO2−3 + H2O → 2Cl− +SO2−4 + H+

Feel free to correct me.

 

[MasterPython]

My understanding is that if you have seperate Ammonia/Ammonium tests you can prove the detoxification part. The one that most test kits use measures both at once.

 

[SparkyJones]

My understanding is that if you have seperate Ammonia/Ammonium tests you can prove the detoxification part. The one that most test kits use measures both at once.

yeah, I've seen the studies and experiments around, but nobody relly just using a free ammonia and total ammonia nitrate test (TAN is the common test which everyone uses in aquariums and gives ammonia and ammonium,)

In theory a free ammonia test SHOULD show that it works.
The difference between free ammonia and total ammonia tests is that the term free ammonia refers to the gaseous NH3 molecules, whereas the term total ammonia refers to the sum of NH3 molecules and ammonium ions.

So, you should be able to see the actual ammonia (NH3) and ammonium (NH4) on the TAN test we all use, and then by testing the FAN see how much is just (NH3) and then dose the product to see if it zeros.

I can't imagine you'd see this on the aquarium test kits, Not sure you'd see it on a FAN test either unless it's a really sensitive test or like pH 9+. freeing up all Ammonium as Ammonia.... I guess for experimenting sake, raising the pH up to like 9 or so on the sample would be the way to go to get a testable quantity of Ammonia into the sample. it's why the hobby doesn't use a FAN test, its such small amounts at our pHs. the test is usually useless by the time ti detects something that could kill a fish.

that seachem ammonia alert is supposed to be a free ammonia nitrate test I think by the test range it has, My issue with that is it's a lot like a stick on thermometer, in that I don't trust they work, and they are a lot like a canary in a coal mine, if it does get to "trouble" it's a bit too late to turn back since it's in the tank with the fish. I've never used one for that reason alone.

my tanks are cycled. I don't even test for ammonia and only test for nitrites because it's on the test strips I use. I use Prime, because to me, it might be more expensive than others per ml, BUT I use far less of it to dechlorinate. if there is or isn't some benefit of it for ammonia, or it's my pH and water temp, that is making the ammonia, ammonium whatever, it's not even a concern of mine.
I still think Prime is cost effective as a dechlorinator vs others. if it does anything else beyond that meh, I don't care.

Anyone buying these products to fight bad ammonia tests readings should slow down and cycle their tank instead keep teir pH aroound 7 or lower if they like, and put ammonia "scares" in the rear view mirror for good.

 

[JustAFishServant]

freeing up all Ammonium as Ammonia.... I guess for experimenting sake, raising the pH up to like 9 or so on the sample would be the way to go to get a testable quantity of Ammonia into the sample. it's why the hobby doesn't use a FAN test, its such small amounts at our pHs. the test is usually useless by the time ti detects something that could kill a fish.

exactly, I agree completely. My pH is 6.8 from the tap often lowering to 6.6 or even 6.4 over time with intense aeration and high stocking. I stock low but sometimes I don't have a choice when I rescue fish. I use the API master test kit but thinking about getting strips as well in case it makes my life easier like it used to but want accurate results. Which brand do you use?

Occasionally, when I test for ammonia, it shows up at .25ppm - but I know from experience and research that's within the region of error. Even if it is present, it's 6.4 pH...ammonia doesn't harm here.that seachem ammonia alert is supposed to be a free ammonia nitrate test I think by the test range it has, My issue with that is it's a lot like a stick on thermometer, in that I don't trust they work, and they are a lot like a canary in a coal mine, if it does get to "trouble" it's a bit too late to turn back since it's in the tank with the fish. I've never used one for that reason alone.

that seachem ammonia alert is supposed to be a free ammonia nitrate test I think by the test range it has, My issue with that is it's a lot like a stick on thermometer, in that I don't trust they work, and they are a lot like a canary in a coal mine, if it does get to "trouble" it's a bit too late to turn back since it's in the tank with the fish. I've never used one for that reason alone.

I've never tried that thing, and I don't think I ever will for accuracy.

my tanks are cycled. I don't even test for ammonia and only test for nitrites because it's on the test strips I use.

Same here - when I know a tank's cycled, I don't test for ammonia, nitrite, chlorine, chloramines, and very rarely I test for pH if I notice something's off. Otherwise, it's just nitrate every so often. But even then, all my tanks are ripariums. I basically have no nitrates...ever.

I still think Prime is cost effective as a dechlorinator vs others. if it does anything else beyond that meh, I don't care.

Ha! When I first started in the hobby 11 years ago (I was 8) I "knew" Prime would be best because of its "properties." But now that I read otherwise I think it's useless. My tap doesn't have chlorine so I don't even need a conditioner - I just do it out of habit in case we move to a place with horrid water. In 11 years, I've never forgotten to add it.

Anyone buying these products to fight bad ammonia tests readings should slow down and cycle their tank instead keep teir pH aroound 7 or lower if they like, and put ammonia "scares" in the rear view mirror for good.

EXACTLY. Why use prime, fritz complete, aqua-essentials, ammo-lock, or ammonia remover filter media? When a tank is cycled, you won't even need any of it! In my personal opinion, less is more with additives. I think it's better for the inhabitants within; plants, fish, or invertebrates all the same.

 

[SparkyJones]

exactly, I agree completely. My pH is 6.8 from the tap often lowering to 6.6 or even 6.4 over time with intense aeration and high stocking. I stock low but sometimes I don't have a choice when I rescue fish. I use the API master test kit but thinking about getting strips as well in case it makes my life easier like it used to but want accurate results. Which brand do you use?

Occasionally, when I test for ammonia, it shows up at .25ppm - but I know from experience and research that's within the region of error. Even if it is present, it's 6.4 pH...ammonia doesn't harm here.that seachem ammonia alert is supposed to be a free ammonia nitrate test I think by the test range it has, My issue with that is it's a lot like a stick on thermometer, in that I don't trust they work, and they are a lot like a canary in a coal mine, if it does get to "trouble" it's a bit too late to turn back since it's in the tank with the fish. I've never used one for that reason alone.

I've never tried that thing, and I don't think I ever will for accuracy.

Same here - when I know a tank's cycled, I don't test for ammonia, nitrite, chlorine, chloramines, and very rarely I test for pH if I notice something's off. Otherwise, it's just nitrate every so often. But even then, all my tanks are ripariums. I basically have no nitrates...ever.

Ha! When I first started in the hobby 11 years ago (I was 8) I "knew" Prime would be best because of its "properties." But now that I read otherwise I think it's useless. My tap doesn't have chlorine so I don't even need a conditioner - I just do it out of habit in case we move to a place with horrid water. In 11 years, I've never forgotten to add it.

EXACTLY. Why use prime, fritz complete, aqua-essentials, ammo-lock, or ammonia remover filter media? When a tank is cycled, you won't even need any of it! In my personal opinion, less is more with additives. I think it's better for the inhabitants within; plants, fish, or invertebrates all the same.

the conditioner does work for like metals like copper,lead, and stuff, at least it's supposed to. I wouldn't say a water conditioner is useless, but yeah, I don't think it's necessary in all cases either.
Heck I wash my prefiter sponges daily in chlorinated water and put them right back and my tank doesn't crash

I'm gonna say it. I got my test strips off amazon, last ones were RUNBO 6 in 1, whatever is cheap and not poorly rated, they all work just as well as anything else that's inaccurate, like it all is.

I get it some people like shaking test tubes and feeling like a scientist, but to me it's all the same, fast, easy and clean is more important to me. Accuracy with testing,,, I mean have you see the charts? None of them are accurate scales even, all of the scales are ballparks, nevermind that you need to be a color specialist to determine orange red from red orange and red, the difference being 10ppm, 20ppm or 40 ppm..... ohh lawd, I need a color consultant!

Most of the time I don't even test anyways, I'm water changing to a point where my bigger overstocked tank stays between 25 and 100 nitrates in a week, and my smaller tanks don't even show up for nitrates anymore maybe 5 after 7-10 days even though they are non-planted. Each smaller tank has 2 fish, and gets the same water change routine as the big tank. My bigger tank, it's been a project this year of recovery and abundance, more of a personal challenge. The other two tanks just follow along for the ride and get the same treatment. The big tank was the reason for the test strips, to see my progress of recovering it, I dip them into all 3 tanks since it's quick. when they are gone, I probably won't buy more.. seems pointless, the big tank has nitrate, wow, it ALWAYS has nitrates. every day theres another 10 or 15 more piling on which may show as 10 or 20, but i'll know for sure in 4 days when it either hits 40 or 80 nitrates on the test,, if i can tell the difference in colors.. hahahaha.

 

[MasterPython]

I know the main ingredient in all of them is Sodium Thiaosulfate which you can buy in powder form cheaply. Has anyone checked how well that actually work compared to fancy declorinators? Diluting and repackaging is a well established business model.

 

[JustAFishServant]

I know the main ingredient in all of them is Sodium Thiaosulfate which you can buy in powder form cheaply. Has anyone checked how well that actually work compared to fancy declorinators? Diluting and repackaging is a well established business model.

Some folks use powdered sodium thiosulfate in a fish pond with NO ill effects.