Betta rescue help needed!

[Skydognyc]

He’s about 2 Yrs old . Aquired from petsmart.
When first purchased he was white with scant amt of red fin edges... he now appears red with some white in his fins (normal to change color maybe he was juvenile when purchased or maybe this is result of chronic illness).

Was in a 5 gal tank w stacked filter that was kept off 1/2 the time ct thought it was too turbulent for fish. Tank light was kept on much/most of the time. Tank had large amount of green algae that was managed by snail).
He was also in tank w 2 zebra nitrile (sp?) snails - one was dead.
I tested the water w a pet store strip- it had VERY HIGH ammonia the rest were wnl. The temp was kept steady at 78F).

The fish was at the bottom in a heap breathing heavily. It was still eating but struggled to get to the top to feed .

I took him home and now his new situation is this:

10 gal new tank w chlorine treated new water. Hang outside tank TopFin filter (has a 2 stage filter that came with it) . Water levels all test normal in this new set up so far.

In tank heater set to 80F.

Substrate is white sand w layer of white gravel.
There are several live plants (4 small clusters) plus a couple of live bamboo sticks (can this really live/grow underwater?) purchased at petCO.

The beta is in with the snail he was living with . Snail is moving around normally and since no algae was fed a small “bottom feeder” wafer.

CONCERNING SYMPTOMS:

1. Mostly laying in a heap at bottom of tank but now is taking short swims up to the top and a little exploration before collapsing back to the bottom in a heap.

2. Still breathing heavily (looks like gasping).

3. Head and some of back covered w what appears to be a “red fuzzy stuff” (maybe what’s called “velvet” but don’t want to jump to any conclusions) maybe fungus?

4. Several small patches of round white areas (size of eraser tip). This may also be on fin tips as well.

5. Seems to be missing scales along sides of body and body looks a little purplish (is this normal fish skin color - doesn’t look normal to me).

6. Small bulge behind rib cage on both sides of lower abdomen (is this his bladder? Stomach? Intestines?? )?

7. Edges of fins look ragged and maybe white substance (maybe this is his color).

8. Eyes look a little hazy but now bulging moderately.

TREATMENT YESTERDAY:

1. Water conditioner w new 10 gal of water.
2. Tank starter (added beneficial bacteria to allow immediate addition of fish - according to label).
3. BETA FIX
4. STRESS COAT
5. Not fed yet.

NEED ADVICE ABOUT SKIN TREATMENT :
(See photos).

Ready and willing to do what is needed to help this fish

 

[Fisch]

As he is struggling to get to the surface, could you just lower the water level?
That would make it easier for him as he does not feel comfortable as high up on the leaf.
Bettafix has a bad reputation, so it may be a good option to stop that treatment.
If he was used to bad water, he needs some time to get adjusted to new water parameters. You stated that he eats, so that is good. A frozen bloodworm as a treat may help him to regain energy.
I think the main thing for you would be to get a liquid freshwater testkit, and complete daily waterchanges (temperature adjusted) to eliminate the danger of ammonia.
Leave the tank without light for a couple of days, get an IAL into the tank, and little activity around the tank.
I am not a disease expert, beside fin rot he looks just stressed to me. But I leave that to other experienced members.

 

[Bettamay]

Don’t use bettafix, it can damage a betta’s labyrinth organ.

As for your problems, I don’t think your fish has velvet, be he most probably has a fungal disease.

He might have a mild case of ammonia poisoning from the previous tanks, since it matches up with the symptoms.
He also looks like he has some fin rot.
Might have Popeye? From what your description said with the bulging/ hazy eyes.

Right now, I would think your current priority is keeping the tank water pristine along with fungal/bacterial meds. Even with the beneficial bacteria, if it is not cycled the ammonia can still hit hard. I used bb before, and I can say it reduced the damage, but fish still died. You need to be very careful with that.

As for meds.... I’m not to good with them but I’ll give what I can. IAL leaves, Salt might help, don’t get anything with fix at the end,( bettafix, melafix, pimafix) .

Also, can you fill out the emergency template?

 

[RunsOnCoffee]

The best thing you can do for this fish now is to keep his water as clean as possible and feed him high quality food. He has been through a lot.

I recommend changing his water no less than every two days - 50%.

Most of his symptoms are probably due to the high ammonia levels he was kept in. That is probably also part of why is breathing so heavy.

Look up fish in cycle. This is what you are doing now. Even if you add bottled bacteria, this is not going to instantly cycle your tank.

I agree with stopping the betta fix. Your new family member will for now only need clean water. That will probably already make a huge difference.
I don't see an issue with his eyes. I would recommend observing it for now.

If you can, get some frozen brine shrimp and high quality betta pellets. I am no fan of freeze dried foods, they have very little nutritious value.
Omega One, Hikari Betta Gold are some good foods, as well as Fluval Bug Bites.

Absolutely agree with leaving the lights off for a few days. Your little guy is probably very stressed.

I have no experience with growing bamboo submerged. So maybe someone else can chime in.

 

[BettaCyrus]

Right now, I would think your current priority is keeping the tank water pristine along with fungal/bacterial meds. Even with the beneficial bacteria, if it is not cycled the ammonia can still hit hard. I used bb before, and I can say it reduced the damage, but fish still died. You need to be very careful with that.

What is bb?

I'm a noob, sorry can't help more but lovely fish & I wish you the best! I have seen that bamboo must have tops above-water... maybe if you lower tank water to help the fish they will benefit too.

 

[RunsOnCoffee]

What is bb?

BB = Beneficial Bacteria

 

[BettaCyrus]

BB = Beneficial Bacteria

Thanks! I figured it out shortly after

 

[Skydognyc]

Thank you everyone for your observations, experience and suggestions! You rock!

I stopped the beta fix and tossed it.

I also treated with salt (lowest suggested dose I could find).... used aquarium salt once.

((I had to remove nitrite zebra snail when salting (wasn’t sure so to be safe) and while digging for something to keep him in... I found his old tank mate snail from original toxic tank - alive and clinging to lid of old tank...
also found an old 1 gal tank I was going to use as “treatment tank” if ever needed so put them in with treated water and tiny bit of algae tab plus tiny bit blanched cucumber... they ate but that set up w two snails is going to be tough to keep safe for them...I removed the food and replaced half the water but the ammonia and ph is already getting high) more on that later)....))

FEEDING
As for BETTA.. he was still not breathing well (fast and open mouth kind of panting)
although he ate the 2 little round beta pellets I released In front of him (one floated off and he didn’t / couldn’t chase it) and a 1 thawed froozen blood worm).

ANTIBIOTIC
After the salt treatment (next morning) I decided to remove carbon filter and take a risk and treated with erythromycin (antibiotic) . Waited 24 hours then treated again (this morning).

WATER CHG PLAN FOR TOMORROW:
my plan is to wait another 24 hours then replace 50 of the water, add back the carbon filter and see how he is doing.

SNAIL PLAN:
I’d like to add the snails back in so they’ll do better and maybe be able to find something to eat growing on the live plants . (Hoping the salt level after 50% water change will make levels ok for them.

MOVING FORWAR
I purchased and will pick up today the master liquid test kit as well as more water treatment for tap water and maybe something to add bacteria like “stress coat” or “quick start” or whatever is the suggested favorite you guys recommend.

im leaving on the light for 6 hours hoping to create a little food for the snails.

temp got up to 81 yesterday so I notched it down and not it’s steady at 80F. What is best now?

I added a “FLOATING LILLY PAD” that the beta immediately got on and he’s moving between top of box right next to filter outlet, Lilly pad and bottom of tank (not as often though).

I have seen him take a couple or leisurely swims around for about 30 seconds exploring the tank (they always end in a slow decent then a crash into a pile on gravel)... mostly he’s laying with tail hanging off on his perch.

Is he hanging so close to the top to get oxygen?
To be able to make bubble nest?
Because no other elevated surface to hang out on?

WILL THIS WORK/TURBULENCE
I bought a stick-on soap dish that I plan to attach suction cups to and use it to break up the falling water from filter to make less turbulence (too much even turned all the way down)....

So I was going to move the “box” ornament to its side and see if he still likes laying on it but maybe I need other items for him to rest on... any thoughts?

He ate 2 offered balls of food this morning.

How often should I feed him at this point?

How long should I leave light on (or not).?

Should I consider putting the snails back in?

Should I wait (let antibiotic have a little more time ) or just do water change today ?

Should I also treat with an antifungal (see photo)(actual medication) or more benign “fin and body” treatment that I ordered? (Forget the name).

Is it ok to add one of those natural “lava” bricks that say they help continual bact add and help keep tank clear (it looks a little cloudy (maybe the meds)?

how will I know if all this is hurting the plants and causing them to decompose before they become obvious?

should I do another follow up salt treatment as the bottle recommends ?

what Is best product or way to add back BB no w that I killed them w antibiotics.

and.... best way to cont fish in cycling (which I feel bad about but don’t know another way)...

Other suggestions?

thank you all who have and who will respond I know this has all been said but I don’t have time to read all before action w this fish (I will to through and read past responses in time though)....

I’ll attach photos and await response. Hoping this will all settle down and fish lives and I can stop spending money like .... well like water and actually go back to my real work (please don’t tell me if you are laughing I realize this might be just the beginning ... )

Rookie.

 

[RunsOnCoffee]

Glad your fish is still hanging on.

Let me work through your post slowly.

The first and most important thing now:
Do not yet stop the treatment with the Erythromycin. The course needs to be done for a total of 4 doses. If I read your post correctly you have only done two. You need to do a water change tomorrow and do another two days of the erythromycin. Otherwise you will just be breeding bacteria that will grow resistant to the medication instead of helping, thus making it harder to treat the fish later on. It is extremely important to follow medication directions to a T.

Speaking of medications. No, do not use the Fungus Cure meds yet. Unless you see very clear symptoms of a fungal infections, all your fish needs is clean water.

Your plan with adding the snails back into the betta's tank sound good with me. - after you have finished the course of antibiotics. You do have to keep in mind though that your tank isn't cycled yet, so you will have to do regular water changes -even if you do add more Safestart or other bottled bacteria products. Your freshwater master test kit will very much come in handy while you're doing a fish-in-cycle. And water changes are going to be your and your pets best friend.

Your temperature on your betta's tank is good. And I think the lighting schedule should work. Maybe increase it by a couple hours and see how your tank is doing. The longer you leave the lights on, the more algae you will probably get.

In regards to your question about your betta's behavior. I do believe he is probably resting on the top of his little perch because he can get to the water surface more easily to get oxygen. I don't believe it is in order to make bubble nests.

If this were my fish, I would start feeding twice a day. Maybe two pellets per meal. I wouldn't change the box ornament you have. He has already gotten used to it and picked out a spot he likes. I have the same one and my betta Omega loves to swim around and then rest on top of it, too.


in short: keep going with the erythromycing, add the snails after you have changed out the water after at least 4 doses of the erythromycin. Then do frequent 50% water changes every day or every other day. Especially once the snails are in.
I do not believe you will need to do any further meds after you finish with the Erythromycin.

I would like to add one more thing and another question for you.
It looks like you might have a plastic plant or two in there with him. I would remove those and replace with real or silk plants. Plastic plants will shredd your guys fins.

Have you noticed any other symptoms on your fish? How are his gills? If he had ammonia burns on them they will need a little time to heal.
Keep us posted how your little guy is doing. BTW, Does he have a name?

 

[Skydognyc]

Glad your fish is still hanging on.

Let me work through your post slowly.

The first and most important thing now:
Do not yet stop the treatment with the Erythromycin. The course needs to be done for a total of 4 doses. If I read your post correctly you have only done two. You need to do a water change tomorrow and do another two days of the erythromycin. Otherwise you will just be breeding bacteria that will grow resistant to the medication instead of helping, thus making it harder to treat the fish later on. It is extremely important to follow medication directions to a T.

Speaking of medications. No, do not use the Fungus Cure meds yet. Unless you see very clear symptoms of a fungal infections, all your fish needs is clean water.

Your plan with adding the snails back into the betta's tank sound good with me. - after you have finished the course of antibiotics. You do have to keep in mind though that your tank isn't cycled yet, so you will have to do regular water changes -even if you do add more Safestart or other bottled bacteria products. Your freshwater master test kit will very much come in handy while you're doing a fish-in-cycle. And water changes are going to be your and your pets best friend.

Your temperature on your betta's tank is good. And I think the lighting schedule should work. Maybe increase it by a couple hours and see how your tank is doing. The longer you leave the lights on, the more algae you will probably get.

In regards to your question about your betta's behavior. I do believe he is probably resting on the top of his little perch because he can get to the water surface more easily to get oxygen. I don't believe it is in order to make bubble nests.

If this were my fish, I would start feeding twice a day. Maybe two pellets per meal. I wouldn't change the box ornament you have. He has already gotten used to it and picked out a spot he likes. I have the same one and my betta Omega loves to swim around and then rest on top of it, too.


in short: keep going with the erythromycing, add the snails after you have changed out the water after at least 4 doses of the erythromycin. Then do frequent 50% water changes every day or every other day. Especially once the snails are in.
I do not believe you will need to do any further meds after you finish with the Erythromycin.

I would like to add one more thing and another question for you.
It looks like you might have a plastic plant or two in there with him. I would remove those and replace with real or silk plants. Plastic plants will shredd your guys fins.

Have you noticed any other symptoms on your fish? How are his gills? If he had ammonia burns on them they will need a little time to heal.
Keep us posted how your little guy is doing. BTW, Does he have a name?

Hi Fisch!
Let me now work through yours....

NAME
He was named "CocoChannel" so we'll keep it at "Coco". Thanks for reminding me he has a name (I've been sure he's dead so many times I guess I was trying to keep it less personal...but time to get over that)...

ANTIBIOTIC (AB) ANTIFUNGAL (AF)
I have something to admit (see photo) - (patience is not my friend but this process will definately help)...and...I meant to do the AB and AF at the same time only I had to wait for the AF to arrive and so.... I already started the fungal protocol. I figured there might be fungal infection due to secondary immunosuppresion from bacterial that might be due to poor water quality ... or you might be right its all due to ammonia burns but I didnt' want to waste time not treating if there was something and because he looks so poorly...I thought time is of the essence as well.... I wasn't sure what was worse... stressing him and risking side effects of meds or waiting too long and having bact or fungi building up untreated ... so I treated.

...THANKS for reminding me that AB treatment is NOT over...I was thinking treat every 24 hours twice then wait 24 hours then done...but I forgot that the bottle said repeat. oops. I would have forgotten and I DO know its improtant to do full treatment and why! glad you reminded me.

Not sure what to do about the fungal meds that say wait 48 hours then repeat and wait another 48 hours then water change.... maybe you can help me sort that out. Most likely I should do the water change tomrorow for the antibiotics then do another fungal treatment wait 48 and change water and replace charcoal filter....but what do you think?

Re MOVING FURNITURE
its a good point that now he is used to where things are but having him perched right up next to the filter outlet is having to watch as the turbid water blows his fins in the wind like a dog with his head out of the car window... it can't be good for him. When I turn off the filter pump he moves away...so I guess he likes it or benefits from it (maybe his gills ARE damaged??).... if you think thats ok I'll leave it as is for now and maybe add another flat elevated surface near by to see if he moves over to that out of the flow of water.

FAKE PLANTS
yep there are a few in there (I threw them in when I got him home because he looked so terrible that I thought he might need more hiding areas on the bottom and that's all I had around from the old tank.... I only bought a few live plants because I wasn't sure how they'd do and I wasn't sure how I'd do with them and I knew I was in for some meds and salts and changes and I didn't want to kill a bigger investment...those things are expensive and not so easy to find (only one petstore here carrys them)...

I love having the live plants and I'm sure they'll benefit the environment in there and since he's never been one to play in the fake plants much .... maybe that's ok for now? ? I can take them out if you think its harmful - I never liked the look of fake I was just so worried about real and figured no one does that anymore (last fish tank was when I was 12 .... 100's of years ago and there wasn't such a thing as fake plants...we all had real plants but I'm also sure no one around me knew or did anything about cycling tanks - nor could we have afforded it then...the plants probably helped alot without us knowing)...

RE AFFORDING
With all the suggested (and obviously needed) water changes... how do you make it more affordable? Each change requires addition of up to 25ml of water conditioner and maybe bb starter. Daily for weeks will take its toll. I am missing something about that? I did buy several gallon jugs of spring water and planned on adding the conditioner and starter into the jugs so its primed for cleaning off tubes and adding to snail tank and being able to easily measure ins and outs of water changes (I also had to buy some buckets with measurements and a better siphon).... but there must be better places and prices than what I am buying maybe you can fill me in.

also how do you do these changes without stressing an already stressed and ill fish .... in the dark? from certain area of the tank? how do you add water back in without stirring everything up?

FEEDING TWICE DAILY -
is there a favorite betta food experienced tenders use?

OBSERVATIONS:
I don't see obvious lesions on his gills.
He does look less "red" where it seems hes lost scales (his sides seemed red and inflammed at first now they look more quiet) but still has areas on both sides that look like they are missing scales and maybe left side has some white patches (but might just be scale damage)...

He's still really breathing bad (why I thought there might be bact or fungus that we don't see)...
I feel like he's having labored breathing and that doesn't seem to have improved at all since he's been here (4 days now).... I was hoping to see some improvment new water, salt, Ab, now Af.... but looks the same.

The ends of his fins (all) are tattered up but I don't see obvious fuzz or fungus.
His eyes seem less popped out...and maybe more clear (I never looked closely at fish eyes and am enchanted by his looking all around while I'm looking at him (probably thinking "don't look at her don't look at her or she might eat you...")...

WHEN?
At what point do we say that he's not getting better and .... he's suffering and start thinking about not putting him through any more? I'm ready and willing to do whatever he needs, but I'm hoping to see some changes for the better and some indication that he's more comfortable -

Thanks for helping out all.

Skydog.

 

[Fisch]

thank you for working with him through this, it is very rewarding when they pull through.
He did not get into this situation over night, so to expect him up and swimming is like a human patient being in the ICU and running home after the days there, it does not work that way. Patience again.
Water conditioners like Prime may be expensive up front, but the you use only 0.1ml per gallon of water. The 500ml will get you through a year or longer of treatment. And the daily water change is temporarily. After the cycle is done, normally it goes down to once a week 50%.
Bettas are not shy fish, so if you just put the siphon on one end, he may not even move. Water column change and a bit of poop is basically it.
Food, I like to spoil my Betta. He gets treats like blood worms, daphnis, spirulina brineshrimp. In the freezer these last a long time as well, so the cost spreads out.
If the current is too strong, maybe put a plant between the filter output and his perch. I only have sponge filters running with my Betta, it moves it sufficiently.

 

[RunsOnCoffee]

Hi Skydog!

Coco is one lucky fish to have a new owner who really cares.
Fish has already touched on some of your questions.
I think your plan with the AF and AB after a water change tomorrow should work out.
May I ask why you are using spring water? That will indeed get expensive quickly. Typically tap water should do + water conditioner of course. I have found Seachem prime to work well and last a really really long time. It is very concentrated. 1 ml per 10 gallon.

I think the fake plants are up to you. But keep a close eye on his fins. If you notice new years in his fins it might be the fake plants at which point I would definitely recommend to take them out. I totally understand not wanting to invest too much money in real plants while you are still trying to get Coco better. they are expensive little things.

I am happy to read that Coco's gills seem to be less red. It's a good sign.
Now, I don't want to get your hopes up too much. Coco still has a way to go. But as long as he still has his active moments and is alert and doesn't just lie there without even swimming to the surface he isn't lost yet.
Bigger improvement might take another week or two.
Coco lying on his perch reminds me so much of Omega. You can try baffling the flow of your filter if you worry that it is too fast. I think the soap dish you specifically bought for this purpose might workout well.

Food wise. My bettas get a variety of pellets (Omega One, Fluval Bug Bites, Hikari Betta Gold, new life spectrum) and frozen foods. Brine shrimp, occasionally thawed bloodworms, etc.

Oh, before I forget. When you put the new water in during your water changes you can use a colander to disperse the water better and reduce the water movement in the tank. I bought a collapsible kitchen colander as my water change colander.

Hope Coco makes some more strides towards improvement. Hang in there. Slow and steady.

RunsOnCoffee

 

[Skydognyc]

Coco is still with us. Here's an update.
He is still breathing badly - that's what is worrying me the most ....oh that and sadly, he won't or can't eat today. Yesterday he ate 2 little pellets and a froozen thawed blood worm (after trying to get several to drop in front of him finally one did and he got it)... (I assume i shoudl go in and siphon up the ones he missed...i will do that).

but today nothing...pellet placed right next to him and he didn't even try....blood worm dangled in front of him, touching mouth, dropping so it slowly drifted in front...not even a try...after a minute he just saw away....

I added the soap dish (which arrived and is PERFECT!! metal with slates - i glued on two suction cups and placed it just below the outlet spash and moved the tall "perch" a little further away next to the soap tray so he can lay on the tray if wants the water flow (better air?) on him or on the box perch if he wants to get closer to the surface.

The flow seemed a little too turbulent still so I cut a new sponge and placed it in the dish...this seems optimal (I'll attach photo). I hope it doesn't back up the flow so much that the filter doesn't work as well (does the carbon need fast flow to filter best? I'll worry about that later)...

I did my first water change (OMG! like preparing to deliver a baby or something...first I didn't have a bucket, then I didn't have anything to measure the conditioner since I only had 1 gal containers of water (more on this topic later for now I don't mind spending the buck per gallon so I have several gallons all conditioned and treated to use for rinsing things and for adding both snail and coco tanks.

Finally I caluculated the amt of drops of the stuff (had to drag out my algebra (geeze smart professional you'd think I could do that easily)...to figure out that 14-16 drops in an ml (but I also ordered a few syringes for more acurate measuring as well as a baster with measurments thinking that might be an easy way to remove the dropped food while I'm tempting her with various things)....

I also bought a couple of living plants so I could add one to the tiny snail tank to give them some benefit and one to add to coco once the salt is normalized...but I noticed little snails and read that I had to quarantine or sterilize - I opted to use diluted bleach bath (worked great) but then realized I just killed any algea that the snails might have been happy to have from the petstore tank but I guess better not to transfer any diseases and especially pests in the name of a little algea...hopefully with the light on long times they will grow their own in time.... they seem to be doing ok. I have the other plan in a bucket of water that I'm conditioning and will put into cocos home when he's stronger and water less salty.

BACK TO TODAY - I changed out half the water (when I tested it first everything was normal and no ammonia but only a trace of nitrates (assuming the meds in the water is throwing off the activity)... now my question is...

given how weak he seems and NOT EATING.... maybe I should take a break from the antifungal (will have to get back to it since we started...maybe) .... and just con't water changing daily and give him time?

how long can he go without eating?

should I just wait and give him a day or two of fasting ??

Should I do the yellow treatment again and wait 48 hours and ..... should I now carry on with the second phase of ANTIBIOTICS due today .... or wait on that too ?? I"m so hesitant to rock his boat when hes not eating and breathing so badly.... this is really hard and I'm not getting anything done...house looks like a fish hospital and those around me think I have gone totally nuts...I'll have to sit down and calculate how much I've spent on this project one day for now I just hope Coco pulls through...if he somehow doesn't make it....I'm going to be more than ready for whoever is next now or in the FAR FUTURE (I'm hoping).

Skydog.

 

[Skydognyc]

Hi Skydog!

Coco is one lucky fish to have a new owner who really cares.
Fish has already touched on some of your questions.
I think your plan with the AF and AB after a water change tomorrow should work out.
May I ask why you are using spring water? That will indeed get expensive quickly. Typically tap water should do + water conditioner of course. I have found Seachem prime to work well and last a really really long time. It is very concentrated. 1 ml per 10 gallon.

I think the fake plants are up to you. But keep a close eye on his fins. If you notice new years in his fins it might be the fake plants at which point I would definitely recommend to take them out. I totally understand not wanting to invest too much money in real plants while you are still trying to get Coco better. they are expensive little things.

I am happy to read that Coco's gills seem to be less red. It's a good sign.
Now, I don't want to get your hopes up too much. Coco still has a way to go. But as long as he still has his active moments and is alert and doesn't just lie there without even swimming to the surface he isn't lost yet.
Bigger improvement might take another week or two.
Coco lying on his perch reminds me so much of Omega. You can try baffling the flow of your filter if you worry that it is too fast. I think the soap dish you specifically bought for this purpose might workout well.

Food wise. My bettas get a variety of pellets (Omega One, Fluval Bug Bites, Hikari Betta Gold, new life spectrum) and frozen foods. Brine shrimp, occasionally thawed bloodworms, etc.

Oh, before I forget. When you put the new water in during your water changes you can use a colander to disperse the water better and reduce the water movement in the tank. I bought a collapsible kitchen colander as my water change colander.

Hope Coco makes some more strides towards improvement. Hang in there. Slow and steady.

RunsOnCoffee

Coffee/ Fisch - Coco is in trouble and if he is still like this tomorrow, I'm going to euthanize him.
He hasn't eaten all day and is perched on the resting block near the outlet with his nose just barely under the water surface. He's breathing heavily and he looks a bad color...
Water parameters are holding steady with no ammonia and ph 6.8.
If I thought he was even mildly improved I'd feel better about continueing on but I don't want him to
con't to struggle if it means only delay in his passing.
I've decided to see if he makes it through the night with any improvment and euthanize him if he still looks the same or worse.
You tell me to hang in and that it can take time and if you've experience in someone being so critical yet turning the corner and going on to do well....Then I'll resume continuation of antibiotic course part 2, do partial water change in 24 hours and cont the struggle.

In the mean time, I hv read about how to help our Beta's pass on and I've tried really hard to obtain MS-222 (Finquel) convinced that this is the most humane and reliable way to go but I've only been able to actually find it at one Koi Store that is not doing express shipping and it may take over a week to get it...so I'll probably go with 100% pure clove oil and pray that Coco is one of those guys that goes toward the light quickly and without struggle (I've read some horror stories online tonight and I just have to imagine being as sick as he is he won't resist too much).

Let me know if there's something I'm missing or if I'm jumping the gun or am I waiting too long .... can't believe how difficult this is...I just spoke to a friend who is nursing some fading puppies for a friend of hers and this is no less challenging and difficult... poor Coco I wish I knew a way to ease his breathing difficulty.

If he dies or is pts - I plan to take down the entire tank and sterilize then start to cycle it and get it ready for whoever comes next...including these snails who seem more content with live plant to crawl on and look for food on ...any thoughts about how long it takes for algea or other eatible things to grow or should I just continue to feed algae pellets and blanched veggies every couple of days until ready to put them back to the main tank ...I'll hv many questions about cycling the tank correctly when the time comes and who knows....maybe Coco will surprise us all and then we'll be talking about cycling with recovered fish in! (a better case senario for me by far).

"See you" tomorrow and will hope for some replies by anyone who might have something to add...

SkyDog.

 

[BettaCyrus]

Coffee/ Fisch - Coco is in trouble and if he is still like this tomorrow, I'm going to euthanize him.
He hasn't eaten all day and is perched on the resting block near the outlet with his nose just barely under the water surface. He's breathing heavily and he looks a bad color...
Water parameters are holding steady with no ammonia and ph 6.8.
If I thought he was even mildly improved I'd feel better about continueing on but I don't want him to
con't to struggle if it means only delay in his passing.
I've decided to see if he makes it through the night with any improvment and euthanize him if he still looks the same or worse.
You tell me to hang in and that it can take time and if you've experience in someone being so critical yet turning the corner and going on to do well....Then I'll resume continuation of antibiotic course part 2, do partial water change in 24 hours and cont the struggle.

In the mean time, I hv read about how to help our Beta's pass on and I've tried really hard to obtain MS-222 (Finquel) convinced that this is the most humane and reliable way to go but I've only been able to actually find it at one Koi Store that is not doing express shipping and it may take over a week to get it...so I'll probably go with 100% pure clove oil and pray that Coco is one of those guys that goes toward the light quickly and without struggle (I've read some horror stories online tonight and I just have to imagine being as sick as he is he won't resist too much).

Let me know if there's something I'm missing or if I'm jumping the gun or am I waiting too long .... can't believe how difficult this is...I just spoke to a friend who is nursing some fading puppies for a friend of hers and this is no less challenging and difficult... poor Coco I wish I knew a way to ease his breathing difficulty.

If he dies or is pts - I plan to take down the entire tank and sterilize then start to cycle it and get it ready for whoever comes next...including these snails who seem more content with live plant to crawl on and look for food on ...any thoughts about how long it takes for algea or other eatible things to grow or should I just continue to feed algae pellets and blanched veggies every couple of days until ready to put them back to the main tank ...I'll hv many questions about cycling the tank correctly when the time comes and who knows....maybe Coco will surprise us all and then we'll be talking about cycling with recovered fish in! (a better case senario for me by far).

"See you" tomorrow and will hope for some replies by anyone who might have something to add...

SkyDog.

Omg your post sounds like me - (noob too!) really going to extreme lengths to make sure your betta is taken care of! I'm so sorry to hear he's still struggling with breathing and not feeling well.
Idk about the sponge you're using, but I was going to suggest using an aquarium filter sponge to tamp the filter flow, as I've seen others do. Pretty crafty solution there w/the soap dish!
I too, have been/was using gallons of spring water exclusively for filling and water changes for the first two weeks - and honestly it's waaayyy more trouble than it's worth!! I was using a 5 gallon bucket of hot/warm water to stick the spring water gallon in after mixing/conditioning - and finding that heating the gallon was actually changing the test results (ammonia & ph), so not sure if that means the plastic jug was leaching stuff into the water or what? But I wasted a lot of water that I conditioned then let sit a bit, heated and tested... also had to use ph Down a bunch, which is also tricky when dealing with small amounts - I feel you on the measuring!! I quit the spring water this last change though after ruining another New Zealand spring water gallon because it turned up with .25 ppm ammonia after warming, and decided to use tap water that I conditioned with dechlorinator, and a bunch of other additive ish tonight.
I've been worried about possible fin rot and some gasping/breathing stuff too... I kept getting very slight ammonia levels, which was the only thing I could figure was the cause. So I've been doing my best to syringe clean out waste & keep up on water changes, testing parameters, etc... I would say fasting would be helpful and others have recommended dark/low lights (though I know that with plants that can be tough). I hope someone else with more experience can weigh in and maybe Coco will have a turn around. I feel you on your efforts! Keep us posted!!!

Coco is still with us. Here's an update.
He is still breathing badly - that's what is worrying me the most ....oh that and sadly, he won't or can't eat today. Yesterday he ate 2 little pellets and a froozen thawed blood worm (after trying to get several to drop in front of him finally one did and he got it)... (I assume i shoudl go in and siphon up the ones he missed...i will do that).

but today nothing...pellet placed right next to him and he didn't even try....blood worm dangled in front of him, touching mouth, dropping so it slowly drifted in front...not even a try...after a minute he just saw away....

I added the soap dish (which arrived and is PERFECT!! metal with slates - i glued on two suction cups and placed it just below the outlet spash and moved the tall "perch" a little further away next to the soap tray so he can lay on the tray if wants the water flow (better air?) on him or on the box perch if he wants to get closer to the surface.

The flow seemed a little too turbulent still so I cut a new sponge and placed it in the dish...this seems optimal (I'll attach photo). I hope it doesn't back up the flow so much that the filter doesn't work as well (does the carbon need fast flow to filter best? I'll worry about that later)...

I did my first water change (OMG! like preparing to deliver a baby or something...first I didn't have a bucket, then I didn't have anything to measure the conditioner since I only had 1 gal containers of water (more on this topic later for now I don't mind spending the buck per gallon so I have several gallons all conditioned and treated to use for rinsing things and for adding both snail and coco tanks.

Finally I caluculated the amt of drops of the stuff (had to drag out my algebra (geeze smart professional you'd think I could do that easily)...to figure out that 14-16 drops in an ml (but I also ordered a few syringes for more acurate measuring as well as a baster with measurments thinking that might be an easy way to remove the dropped food while I'm tempting her with various things)....

I also bought a couple of living plants so I could add one to the tiny snail tank to give them some benefit and one to add to coco once the salt is normalized...but I noticed little snails and read that I had to quarantine or sterilize - I opted to use diluted bleach bath (worked great) but then realized I just killed any algea that the snails might have been happy to have from the petstore tank but I guess better not to transfer any diseases and especially pests in the name of a little algea...hopefully with the light on long times they will grow their own in time.... they seem to be doing ok. I have the other plan in a bucket of water that I'm conditioning and will put into cocos home when he's stronger and water less salty.

BACK TO TODAY - I changed out half the water (when I tested it first everything was normal and no ammonia but only a trace of nitrates (assuming the meds in the water is throwing off the activity)... now my question is...

given how weak he seems and NOT EATING.... maybe I should take a break from the antifungal (will have to get back to it since we started...maybe) .... and just con't water changing daily and give him time?

how long can he go without eating?

should I just wait and give him a day or two of fasting ??

Should I do the yellow treatment again and wait 48 hours and ..... should I now carry on with the second phase of ANTIBIOTICS due today .... or wait on that too ?? I"m so hesitant to rock his boat when hes not eating and breathing so badly.... this is really hard and I'm not getting anything done...house looks like a fish hospital and those around me think I have gone totally nuts...I'll have to sit down and calculate how much I've spent on this project one day for now I just hope Coco pulls through...if he somehow doesn't make it....I'm going to be more than ready for whoever is next now or in the FAR FUTURE (I'm hoping).

Skydog.

PS - Pretty sure they can go a bunch of days without eating and be ok So no worries on the fasting.

Coffee/ Fisch - Coco is in trouble and if he is still like this tomorrow, I'm going to euthanize him.
He hasn't eaten all day and is perched on the resting block near the outlet with his nose just barely under the water surface. He's breathing heavily and he looks a bad color...
Water parameters are holding steady with no ammonia and ph 6.8.
If I thought he was even mildly improved I'd feel better about continueing on but I don't want him to
con't to struggle if it means only delay in his passing.
I've decided to see if he makes it through the night with any improvment and euthanize him if he still looks the same or worse.
You tell me to hang in and that it can take time and if you've experience in someone being so critical yet turning the corner and going on to do well....Then I'll resume continuation of antibiotic course part 2, do partial water change in 24 hours and cont the struggle.

In the mean time, I hv read about how to help our Beta's pass on and I've tried really hard to obtain MS-222 (Finquel) convinced that this is the most humane and reliable way to go but I've only been able to actually find it at one Koi Store that is not doing express shipping and it may take over a week to get it...so I'll probably go with 100% pure clove oil and pray that Coco is one of those guys that goes toward the light quickly and without struggle (I've read some horror stories online tonight and I just have to imagine being as sick as he is he won't resist too much).

Let me know if there's something I'm missing or if I'm jumping the gun or am I waiting too long .... can't believe how difficult this is...I just spoke to a friend who is nursing some fading puppies for a friend of hers and this is no less challenging and difficult... poor Coco I wish I knew a way to ease his breathing difficulty.

If he dies or is pts - I plan to take down the entire tank and sterilize then start to cycle it and get it ready for whoever comes next...including these snails who seem more content with live plant to crawl on and look for food on ...any thoughts about how long it takes for algea or other eatible things to grow or should I just continue to feed algae pellets and blanched veggies every couple of days until ready to put them back to the main tank ...I'll hv many questions about cycling the tank correctly when the time comes and who knows....maybe Coco will surprise us all and then we'll be talking about cycling with recovered fish in! (a better case senario for me by far).

"See you" tomorrow and will hope for some replies by anyone who might have something to add...

SkyDog.

PS - How were you/were you warming the spring water you did the water change with?

 

[JamieBAnd]

From what I’m reading, it sounds like your betta has damaged gills. It picked a spot that provided higher oxygenated water. Before using the clove oil, try adding an air pump, with as big an airstone as you can, to diffuse the air into many tiny bubbles, thus increasing the oxygen exchange. Yes, it’s hard to breathe with damaged gills, but there is a chance it will heal. You’ve already put time, effort, and money into this fish, why not give it another week. I’m a noob to this site but not in fish keeping, and these fish come from hardy stock. They have to be able to recover in the wild from bad water, the specially bred ones we keep mostly retain that ability. Healing is draining on the energy reserves. Offer him blood worms twice a day, see if you have tweezers to pluck out just one or two to hand feed him, and if he doesn’t take them, no clean up needed. And relax. You’re super stressed and that has you fluctuating between “ give him a chance” and “ end his suffering “, so step back, offer him time, good water, and see if it helps.

 

[RunsOnCoffee]

Skydog, I am so sorry to hear that Coco is doing worse.
I agree with the BettaCyrus and JamieBAnd. Don't give up quite yet. It can definitely be that his gills were damaged and the higher flow was maybe helping him get more oxygen.
The fasting shouldn't hurt him.

I have had a fish come back from the dead once. I was sure she was going to die, but she held on, and recovered (the only time dropsy wasn't deadly). That's probably why I am so reluctant to give up on Coco just yet. Now, I have also had to put fish down which is a hard decision to make and a really sad thing to do. (In this case I had taken in a betta from neighbors who didn't want him and had kept him in terrible condition - he got better but then many months later developed a tumor that impaired his entire life and he was suffering badly. I used clove oil. I read about the MS-222, and will probably switch to that after I set up all my tanks again.)

At this point the whole thing is a waiting game. It's hard to watch them fight for their lives and to just watch. I am sure that in the end you will make the right decision. You see Coco first hand and know him better than us. You can always try increasing the oxygenation in the water with an air stone. Maybe it'll help. It may not.
Please keep us posted.

Whatever happens. You are not alone, and we are all here to help you if you do set up and cycle the tank again.

 

[Bettamay]

I agree with everything said above, make sure your temperature is not high, and add an airstone.

To the super betta experts out there... Gill Flukes????

 

[Skydognyc]

COCO DIED. late last night during the wee hours of morning.

After he died I examined him and multiple issues and possible causes became apparent. He had a firm mass in his abdomen (possibly kidney related but could hv been stomach). A skin lesion that might be fungal. Prominant scales and he suddenly looks very small (weight loss?). Certainly all of the previous suggestions are possible but my suspicion is Ammonia Poisoning and possibly fungal infection on top of that.

I wish I had taken over his care MUCH sooner... I know so much more now and even some small easy adjustments would have helped him...

And to JamieB - your suggestion to add a second O2 source was a good one! I would have done that and will in future if need be...also the your comment about what hardy stock even the commercial bettas tend to be is heartening and makes me love them even more... I hope to never have to test that theory again though.
As for FLUCTUATING - you wrong there! I never fluctuated and was all in on doing what I could to help him... but near the end, his inability to do anything but struggle to breathe, his loss of appetite and his already frail state made me think chance of recovery was less than his fear so I was ready to help him on that journey - I won't wait as long next time now I know that look in his eye.

I'm grateful to have found this website and I know the advice of so many experienced fish keepers helps improve the lives of so many fish! .... the ones that are discussed directly here, the ones that come after those and the ones everyone who learns something here go on to help as a result of knowing more. Keep doing what you are doing here and I plan to stick around too : )

I'm going to start a new thread about cleaning up sterilizing and resetting up this tank. But I really appreciate you guys helping with Coco this past week.

Thanks friends.

ps. Is there a "rainbow bridge" for fish??

 

[BettaCyrus]

So sorry about Coco!!! :..( You really did try - I do think there is an aquatic rainbow bridge <3
Now I'm so afraid of ammonia poisoning happening to my guy - I really do wonder if it has to do with using spring water from plastic jugs as I've been having creeping ammonia levels w/my betta in his temp tank. Last night was 1st time using tap water but was a 30-40% partial change - & still reading .3ppm ammonia in tank. I have/used API "AmmoLock" to make any ammonia not harmful, but it only works for x amount of hours so I'll have to add again... and it's not solving the problem really. I would suggest having on hand or something like that for future purposes in case you have ammonia issues in the future. I did get an air stone & pump but it's too powerful/loud so trying to get another asap. It's cool you're not going to give up on having future aquatic friends! Again, my condolences about Coco, clearly you cared for him a lot!! __/|\__

 

[Fisch]

So sad to read that he did not survive, you gave him the best life possible after his sad past and there is only so much you can do. I commend you for not adding all the medication and making his last days harder. He had clean warm water, a perch, good food, and a lit of love. With him you learned a lot, you are well prepared.

 

[Skydognyc]

So sorry about Coco!!! :..( You really did try - I do think there is an aquatic rainbow bridge <3
Now I'm so afraid of ammonia poisoning happening to my guy - I really do wonder if it has to do with using spring water from plastic jugs as I've been having creeping ammonia levels w/my betta in his temp tank. Last night was 1st time using tap water but was a 30-40% partial change - & still reading .3ppm ammonia in tank. I have/used API "AmmoLock" to make any ammonia not harmful, but it only works for x amount of hours so I'll have to add again... and it's not solving the problem really. I would suggest having on hand or something like that for future purposes in case you have ammonia issues in the future. I did get an air stone & pump but it's too powerful/loud so trying to get another asap. It's cool you're not going to give up on having future aquatic friends! Again, my condolences about Coco, clearly you cared for him a lot!! __/|\__

So sorry about Coco!!! :..( You really did try - I do think there is an aquatic rainbow bridge <3
Now I'm so afraid of ammonia poisoning happening to my guy - I really do wonder if it has to do with using spring water from plastic jugs as I've been having creeping ammonia levels w/my betta in his temp tank. Last night was 1st time using tap water but was a 30-40% partial change - & still reading .3ppm ammonia in tank. I have/used API "AmmoLock" to make any ammonia not harmful, but it only works for x amount of hours so I'll have to add again... and it's not solving the problem really. I would suggest having on hand or something like that for future purposes in case you have ammonia issues in the future. I did get an air stone & pump but it's too powerful/loud so trying to get another asap. It's cool you're not going to give up on having future aquatic friends! Again, my condolences about Coco, clearly you cared for him a lot!! __/|\__

BetaCyrus thanks for reply. I’ve been thinking about the plastic jug thing and I tested my pre treated water and it has no ammonia after sitting a couple days... I think what might really affect it is the hardness of our water, the filter system in house or condo and chemicals your city puts in including fluoride or not, salts etc.

Our water here is VERY HARD! Filled w tons of metals and too much mineral because we are costal...also because of all that if we don’t filter our tap it corrodes the fixtures very fast. We also have no flouride in california water that might make a difference and..... I think my building might soften the entire complex. I also have reverse osmosis set up for drinking water tap but I never use that for the fish tank (maybe I should try? I just figured it might do something to the salinity)...

I have a friend who is a water expert! Be fly’s to Africa to help villages create clean water systems etc.... when I have a chance I’m going to ask him what he thinks about the plastic jug mineral water ammonia thing .... in the meantime .... are you us using liquid or strip tests? Try using the opposite and see if get same levels?

I’ll keep you posted!

 

[BettaCyrus]

BetaCyrus thanks for reply. I’ve been thinking about the plastic jug thing and I tested my pre treated water and it has no ammonia after sitting a couple days... I think what might really affect it is the hardness of our water, the filter system in house or condo and chemicals your city puts in including fluoride or not, salts etc.

Our water here is VERY HARD! Filled w tons of metals and too much mineral because we are costal...also because of all that if we don’t filter our tap it corrodes the fixtures very fast. We also have no flouride in california water that might make a difference and..... I think my building might soften the entire complex. I also have reverse osmosis set up for drinking water tap but I never use that for the fish tank (maybe I should try? I just figured it might do something to the salinity)...

I have a friend who is a water expert! Be fly’s to Africa to help villages create clean water systems etc.... when I have a chance I’m going to ask him what he thinks about the plastic jug mineral water ammonia thing .... in the meantime .... are you us using liquid or strip tests? Try using the opposite and see if get same levels?

I’ll keep you posted!

Def interested in what your friend has to say - I actually saw something recently about using R/O water for tanks - seems to be a popular option. Did you end up heating your jug water before adding to tank? If so, I wonder if you did it similarly to how I did (jug in 5 gallon bucket) or had a better method?
I ended up doing another (conditioned tap) water change out of sheer paranoia last night after reading your post. :...( I'm super attached to Cyrus and would be devastated if I lost him.
Good tip on the testing method - I was actually thinking of getting some strips! Do you have any you recommend? I've been using the API Master Test kit (liquid).