Betta Fish Scales And Mouth Turning White

[CoryMaster151]

Hello Everyone

I have noticed a problem with my 6 month old Betta Fish with some of his scales on both sides of him turning white a little bit. He is in a 20L tank with himself and has live plants. Only did water change a day ago as part of weekly change routine

We live on Rain Water with a PH of 7

I Feed him a mix between HIKARI Betta Bio-gold food, frozen bloodworms brine shrimp

Please look at provided pictures and I am open to any advice
Thanks Heaps

 

[BigManAquatics]

Can't really tell for sure if that is turning into a fungus or if the fish has a bit of marbling gene and doing a bit of color changing.

 

[CoryMaster151]

Can't really tell for sure if that is turning into a fungus or if the fish has a bit of marbling gene and doing a bit of color changing.

Thanks for getting back to me, Is their any key points i should look out for, if it is fungus?

 

[BigManAquatics]

Thanks for getting back to me, Is their any key points i should look out for, if it is fungus?

Fuzziness is a big one.

 

[CoryMaster151]

Ok Thanks. He is still eating plenty but I will closely monitor him. I have noticed though he is sitting on the bottom of the tank more often over the last couple of days. Any ideas what this could be? It’s been since I’ve done my weekly water change! Thanks

 

[BigManAquatics]

Coukd just be wanting to hang out. Bettas sometimes like to be lazy.

 

[aquanata]

Hi: Can you fill out the emergency template below? That'd help with determining what's going on with your little guy.

Tank
What is the water volume of the tank?
How long has the tank been running?
Does it have a filter?
Does it have a heater?
What is the water temperature?
What is the entire stocking of this tank? (Please list all fish and inverts.)

Maintenance
How often do you change the water?
How much of the water do you change?
What do you use to treat your water?
Do you vacuum the substrate or just the water?

*Parameters - Very Important
Did you cycle your tank before adding fish?
What do you use to test the water?
What are your parameters? We need to know the exact numbers, not just “fine” or “safe”.
Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH:

Feeding
How often do you feed your fish?
How much do you feed your fish?
What brand of food do you feed your fish?
Do you feed frozen?
Do you feed freeze-dried foods?

Illness & Symptoms
How long have you had this fish?
How long ago did you first notice these symptoms?
In a few words, can you explain the symptoms?
Have you started any treatment for the illness?
Was your fish physically ill or injured upon purchase?
How has its behavior and appearance changed, if at all?

Explain your emergency situation in detail.
(Please give a clear explanation of what is going on, include details from the beginning of the illness leading up to now)

Include pictures

 

[CoryMaster151]

Hi: Can you fill out the emergency template below? That'd help with determining what's going on with your little guy.

Tank
What is the water volume of the tank? 20L
How long has the tank been running? 1 year
Does it have a filter? Yes
Does it have a heater? Yes
What is the water temperature? 25-26°C
What is the entire stocking of this tank? (Please list all fish and inverts.) Betta Fish

Maintenance
How often do you change the water? Every 1-2 Weeks
How much of the water do you change? 50%
What do you use to treat your water? Nothing on rain water
Do you vacuum the substrate or just the water?
Vaccum a bit of the substrate
*Parameters - Very Important
Did you cycle your tank before adding fish? Yes
What do you use to test the water? API Master kit
What are your parameters? We need to know the exact numbers, not just “fine” or “safe”.
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite:0
Nitrate: 10
pH: 7.2

Feeding
How often do you feed your fish? 6 days a week
How much do you feed your fish? 6 pellets of HIKARI Betta Bio-Gold. Or half of frozen bloodworms
What brand of food do you feed your fish? HIKARI or Aqua one frozen food
Do you feed frozen? Yes
Do you feed freeze-dried foods? No

Illness & Symptoms
How long have you had this fish? 6 months
How long ago did you first notice these symptoms? 3 days ago
In a few words, can you explain the symptoms? He has this white looking stuff down the side of him and on his side fins and has started resting on the ground but is still interested in his food

Have you started any treatment for the illness? No trying to determine the problem
Was your fish physically ill or injured upon purchase? No
How has its behavior and appearance changed, if at all? Seems to be a little bit lethargic and change of colour

Explain your emergency situation in detail.
(Please give a clear explanation of what is going on, include details from the beginning of the illness leading up to now)

So on Sunday I did his weekly water change and I normally don’t feed any of the fish Sunday because one day a week is good to let them get cleared out. Anyway on Monday I noticed him to become more lethargic and he was sitting down on the gravel which is unusual for him because he usually rests in his live plants. I then identified on Tuesday that he has these little white patches on the side of him that I don’t know if it is a fungus or something else!
Is melafix safe to use on bettas?
Thanks heaps

 

[aquanata]

So on Sunday I did his weekly water change and I normally don’t feed any of the fish Sunday because one day a week is good to let them get cleared out. Anyway on Monday I noticed him to become more lethargic and he was sitting down on the gravel which is unusual for him because he usually rests in his live plants. I then identified on Tuesday that he has these little white patches on the side of him that I don’t know if it is a fungus or something else!
Is melafix safe to use on bettas?
Thanks heaps

It would be great if you could fill out the emergency template as things like water parameters, temp, tank set up etc... are helpful for both diagnosis & treatment suggestions. White patches & lethargy can describe a variety of illnesses each with specific recommended treatments, some of which can kill plants, other tank inhabitants &/or necessary filter bacteria. The photos & current description alone aren't sufficient for diagnosis I'm afraid.

Your question about melafix is straightforward tho. In my opinion none of the -fix medications are either useful or safe for bettas. APIs own funded research indicates that at most they have very mild antibacterial properties no more effective than clean, dechlorinated water. Experience indicates that adding oils, like those in the -fix medications, is particularly damaging to the labyrinth organs of fish like bettas. However, there's no label claims regulation for OTC fish medications in the US or Canada. I don't use -fix preparations on fish surrendered to me or in my personal tanks for those reasons.

With no further information the best recommendation is I think, absolutely pristine water with regular, daily water changes with dechlorinated water. 25% daily is my recommendation, reduced to weekly as the animal recovers. Parameters should be ammonia -0, Nitrites -0 & Nitrates about 5. Without diagnosis I'd keep the temp at its normal 80F. Continue to feed no more than 6 small betta pellets total in 2 daily feedings, alternating with frozen daphnia or brine shrimp one or two days a week. Fast one day a week.

Best of luck with your little guy & hope it helps.

 

[CoryMaster151]

Tank
What is the water volume of the tank? 20L
How long has the tank been running? 1 year
Does it have a filter? Yes
Does it have a heater? Yes
What is the water temperature? 25-26°C
What is the entire stocking of this tank? (Please list all fish and inverts.) Betta Fish

Maintenance
How often do you change the water? Every 1-2 Weeks
How much of the water do you change? 50%
What do you use to treat your water? Nothing on rain water
Do you vacuum the substrate or just the water?
Vaccum a bit of the substrate
*Parameters - Very Important
Did you cycle your tank before adding fish? Yes
What do you use to test the water? API Master kit
What are your parameters? We need to know the exact numbers, not just “fine” or “safe”.
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite:0
Nitrate: 10
pH: 7.2

Feeding
How often do you feed your fish? 6 days a week
How much do you feed your fish? 6 pellets of HIKARI Betta Bio-Gold. Or half of frozen bloodworms
What brand of food do you feed your fish? HIKARI or Aqua one frozen food
Do you feed frozen? Yes
Do you feed freeze-dried foods? No

Illness & Symptoms
How long have you had this fish? 6 months
How long ago did you first notice these symptoms? 3 days ago
In a few words, can you explain the symptoms? He has this white looking stuff down the side of him and on his side fins and has started resting on the ground but is still interested in his foo

Have you started any treatment for the illness? No trying to determine the problem
Was your fish physically ill or injured upon purchase? No
How has its behavior and appearance changed, if at all? Seems to be a little bit lethargic and change of colour

Explain your emergency situation in detail.
(Please give a clear explanation of what is going on, include details from the beginning of the illness leading up to now)

sorry didn’t send it properly
So on Sunday I did his weekly water change and I normally don’t feed any of the fish Sunday because one day a week is good to let them get cleared out. Anyway on Monday I noticed him to become more lethargic and he was sitting down on the gravel which is unusual for him because he usually rests in his live plants. I then identified on Tuesday that he has these little white patches on the side of him that I don’t know if it is a fungus or something else!
Is melafix safe to use on bettas?
Thanks heaps

 

[CoryMaster151]

It would be great if you could fill out the emergency template as things like water parameters, temp, tank set up etc... are helpful for both diagnosis & treatment suggestions. White patches & lethargy can describe a variety of illnesses each with specific recommended treatments, some of which can kill plants, other tank inhabitants &/or necessary filter bacteria. The photos & current description alone aren't sufficient for diagnosis I'm afraid.

Your question about melafix is straightforward tho. In my opinion none of the -fix medications are either useful or safe for bettas. APIs own funded research indicates that at most they have very mild antibacterial properties no more effective than clean, dechlorinated water. Experience indicates that adding oils, like those in the -fix medications, is particularly damaging to the labyrinth organs of fish like bettas. However, there's no label claims regulation for OTC fish medications in the US or Canada. I don't use -fix preparations on fish surrendered to me or in my personal tanks for those reasons.

With no further information the best recommendation is I think, absolutely pristine water with regular, daily water changes with dechlorinated water. 25% daily is my recommendation, reduced to weekly as the animal recovers. Parameters should be ammonia -0, Nitrites -0 & Nitrates about 5. Without diagnosis I'd keep the temp at its normal 80F. Continue to feed no more than 6 small betta pellets total in 2 daily feedings, alternating with frozen daphnia or brine shrimp one or two days a week. Fast one day a week.

Best of luck with your little guy & hope it helps.

Thanks for your advice and i have just posted my emergency template in the post above you just need to expand it! I agree i don't really want to use any medications on my fish as i don't seem to have had any good experiences with it! i am going to go with your advice of changing water out daily until he gets better. My ammonia is 0, Nitrites is 0 & Nitrate is 5-10. And temperature is at 80F I don't feed any of fish on sunday for the fasting night and then feed frozen food 1 maybe 2 times a week being brine shrimp or Bloodworms.

Thanks for your assistance and will notify you of the outcome.

 

[aquanata]

Thanks for your advice and i have just posted my emergency template in the post above you just need to expand it! I agree i don't really want to use any medications on my fish as i don't seem to have had any good experiences with it! i am going to go with your advice of changing water out daily until he gets better. My ammonia is 0, Nitrites is 0 & Nitrate is 5-10. And temperature is at 80F I don't feed any of fish on sunday for the fasting night and then feed frozen food 1 maybe 2 times a week being brine shrimp or Bloodworms.

Thanks for your assistance and will notify you of the outcome.

My sincere apologies. I did not see that you'd filled out the template & quoted it. I probably sounded snippy & I apologize if I came across as rude. Not my intention but re-reading, I may have come across that way.

The advice remains the same tho, especially as you have live plants & maybe cory - both sensitive to salt & some meds. Looking at your tank descriptions in your profile, you had cory in this tank too. Do they still share the tank?

If the white spots are new, plus the new lethargy, I'd suspect either ich or fungus (if they're fuzzy spots) as you do. From what I understand there's some mighty heat treatment resistant ich in Australia, so you'd be reduced to salt or proper meds if you're seeing the spots multiply.

I'd recommend aquarium salt treatment for either issue & if it becomes severe, malachite green. Because of the plants & cory (if they're in there), I'd set up a hospital tank or bucket with heater & filter for the betta. 1.5 tsp pre-dissolved aquarium salt per gallon, 50% water change after 2 days, then add 1 tsp aquarium salt per gallon to tank, wait 2 days, 50% water change & add .5 tsp aquarium salt per gallon, wait 2 days & do 50% water change & leave it. With hope, the spots will be disappearing or gone by then & he can be returned to his regular tank. The goal is to slow or stop the ich/fungal growth to give the animal's immune system a chance to kick in & do the rest.

If there is no change or more spots appear as you go along with salt treatment, I'd move the fish back into his tank (or he can remain in the hospital tank) & use malachite green. Not sure how it comes in Australia but I normally use it as a product from Kordan's marketed for ich & fin rot. There are good instructions on the bottle for 3 day treatment with water changes between. In my neck of the woods it can be purchased as straight malachite green too, with similar instructions. Warning that malachite green will stain, including silicone seams in glass tanks.

Too, while I do not combine the two, in severe cases of fungal or ich infections, there are those who combine both salt & malachite green treatments at once. I prefer to start with the least intrusive med (salt), rather than combining treatments.

I hope he is showing improvement with the super clean water but if he is not getting better or getting worse, I recommend the aquarium salt &/or malachite green treatments above. If you have questions, please do come back for help & keep us updated. He's a beautiful animal & I hope he does well.

Again, my apologies for sounding impatient & being less than fully helpful, not seeing the completed template.

Hope it helps!

 

[CoryMaster151]

My sincere apologies. I did not see that you'd filled out the template & quoted it. I probably sounded snippy & I apologize if I came across as rude. Not my intention but re-reading, I may have come across that way.

The advice remains the same tho, especially as you have live plants & maybe cory - both sensitive to salt & some meds. Looking at your tank descriptions in your profile, you had cory in this tank too. Do they still share the tank?

If the white spots are new, plus the new lethargy, I'd suspect either ich or fungus (if they're fuzzy spots) as you do. From what I understand there's some mighty heat treatment resistant ich in Australia, so you'd be reduced to salt or proper meds if you're seeing the spots multiply.

I'd recommend aquarium salt treatment for either issue & if it becomes severe, malachite green. Because of the plants & cory (if they're in there), I'd set up a hospital tank or bucket with heater & filter for the betta. 1.5 tsp pre-dissolved aquarium salt per gallon, 50% water change after 2 days, then add 1 tsp aquarium salt per gallon to tank, wait 2 days, 50% water change & add .5 tsp aquarium salt per gallon, wait 2 days & do 50% water change & leave it. With hope, the spots will be disappearing or gone by then & he can be returned to his regular tank. The goal is to slow or stop the ich/fungal growth to give the animal's immune system a chance to kick in & do the rest.

If there is no change or more spots appear as you go along with salt treatment, I'd move the fish back into his tank (or he can remain in the hospital tank) & use malachite green. Not sure how it comes in Australia but I normally use it as a product from Kordan's marketed for ich & fin rot. There are good instructions on the bottle for 3 day treatment with water changes between. In my neck of the woods it can be purchased as straight malachite green too, with similar instructions. Warning that malachite green will stain, including silicone seams in glass tanks.

Too, while I do not combine the two, in severe cases of fungal or ich infections, there are those who combine both salt & malachite green treatments at once. I prefer to start with the least intrusive med (salt), rather than combining treatments.

I hope he is showing improvement with the super clean water but if he is not getting better or getting worse, I recommend the aquarium salt &/or malachite green treatments above. If you have questions, please do come back for help & keep us updated. He's a beautiful animal & I hope he does well.

Again, my apologies for sounding impatient & being less than fully helpful, not seeing the completed template.

Hope it helps!

All good I understood how you got confused by it sorry. I haven’t had Cory cats in there for a couple of months as I moved them to my big tank to school with the others! The betta is looking a little better today and he’s not sitting as much but I’ve started to see some type of fungal fluffiness around his mouth so from what it seems I’m going to have to go along with the aquarium salt which I will have to put him in my hospital tank as the live plants don’t like salt. But I am going to try one more day with a water change though as he got a little better and I won’t use anything if I don’t have to! I have had to use malachite green once when I had a Servere ich outbreak in my big tank in 2021 when I first started. Does this stuff actually expire and is this ok as this one as provided in the photos expired July 2022 so should I get more or do you think it will be ok? And yes I learned that it stains as it stained my glass seals to green! And yes I would have to agree to start with salt first I’ll have to go and get some this afternoon from my LFS. I will keep you updated and I really have to thank you for your advice and being Patient with me and hopefully we can fix him soon as possible!
Kind Regards

 

[AvaS]

Columnaris can start to turn scales white, and usually a fish with columnaris also have other things going on like find rot or cotton mouth ect

 

[CoryMaster151]

Columnaris can start to turn scales white, and usually a fish with columnaris also have other things going on like find rot or cotton mouth ect

Thanks. Any idea on how to treat this? And I haven’t added any new fish like it says and does it say if I’m reading correctly it starts because of too clean water?

 

[aquanata]

Thanks. Any idea on how to treat this? And I haven’t added any new fish like it says and does it say if I’m reading correctly it starts because of too clean water?

I'll include a link below for a thread about treating columnaris. It still comes down to salt/MG treatment tho, if Australia, like Canada, bans OTC sales of antibiotics. It also means lowering tank temp slowly to 75F. Columnaris, like many other infections is considered something potential in our animals that becomes overwhelming when the fish is stressed, often by poor water conditions or the introduction of new animals actively infected. Pristine water is part of treatment for this too.

I don't see columnaris here, which is often followed by other opportunistic infections that result in things like fin rot - unless that mouth is getting significantly more white & blocked, very quickly. In my experience, columnaris moves quickly & fatally but your little guy is hanging in there. Too, fish with columnaris in my experience spend a fair bit of time itching themselves on hardscape & at the surface.

Here's the link: Columnaris Symptoms And Treatment | Freshwater Fish Disease and Health Forum

I confess, I've used expired malachite green & fish survived, presumably from its use. Once upon a time the stuff sat on shelves with no expiry dates & was just used until it was finished if it was well closed & stored out of heat. An abundance of caution tho would dictate that the expired bottle be tossed & a new bottle used.

Good luck. It sounds like you have this.

 

[CoryMaster151]

I'll include a link below for a thread about treating columnaris. It still comes down to salt/MG treatment tho, if Australia, like Canada, bans OTC sales of antibiotics. It also means lowering tank temp slowly to 75F. Columnaris, like many other infections is considered something potential in our animals that becomes overwhelming when the fish is stressed, often by poor water conditions or the introduction of new animals actively infected. Pristine water is part of treatment for this too.

I don't see columnaris here, which is often followed by other opportunistic infections that result in things like fin rot - unless that mouth is getting significantly more white & blocked, very quickly. In my experience, columnaris moves quickly & fatally but your little guy is hanging in there. Too, fish with columnaris in my experience spend a fair bit of time itching themselves on hardscape & at the surface.

Here's the link: Columnaris Symptoms And Treatment | Freshwater Fish Disease and Health Forum

I confess, I've used expired malachite green & fish survived, presumably from its use. Once upon a time the stuff sat on shelves with no expiry dates & was just used until it was finished if it was well closed & stored out of heat. An abundance of caution tho would dictate that the expired bottle be tossed & a new bottle used.

Good luck. It sounds like you have this.

Thanks For Your Response. I am going to dose the tank with aquarium salt tomorrow and hopefully he gets better! Will keep you updated!
Kind Regards For Your Assistance

 

[AvaS]

I hope your little guy gets some relief soon!

 

[CoryMaster151]

I hope your little guy gets some relief soon!

Thanks. I hope so too!

 

[CoryMaster151]

Hello Everyone!

I started using the aquarium salt 2 days ago and dosed correctly with API Aquarium Salt and have just done his water change with the second dose! I have noticed he’s starting to become more active and is swimming a lot more than he was beforehand when I noticed. His fungi on his mouth I wouldn’t say it’s getting better or any worse, as you can see in the pictures provided that little white fuzzy bit on his lower lip, But saying that it’s the 2nd dose today… so I am hoping he will get better and get rid of this fungi shortly with time but I am happy he is starting to swim around because I knew he wasn’t himself beforehand!

Thanks heaps and will keep you updated shortly

 

[aquanata]

Hello Everyone!

I started using the aquarium salt 2 days ago and dosed correctly with API Aquarium Salt and have just done his water change with the second dose! I have noticed he’s starting to become more active and is swimming a lot more than he was beforehand when I noticed. His fungi on his mouth I wouldn’t say it’s getting better or any worse, as you can see in the pictures provided that little white fuzzy bit on his lower lip, But saying that it’s the 2nd dose today… so I am hoping he will get better and get rid of this fungi shortly with time but I am happy he is starting to swim around because I knew he wasn’t himself beforehand!

Thanks heaps and will keep you updated shortly

I'm really glad he's regaining some pep! Hope to see him fully recovered, displaying his beautiful fins & fungi free mouth, soon. Well done.

 

[CoryMaster151]

Hello everyone

I am glad to say my little friend has got the white stuff removed of one side of him. But I am still stuck with the fungus on his mouth that I wouldn’t say has got any better! I am on his last dose of salt as recommended today so I am doing his water change with the last salt dose. Now my question is how long should i continue with his saltwater or whether I should move onto the malachite green stuff. He is still eating his variety of food so he must be doing ok! Please see photos provided with the fungus on the lower bottom of his lip

Thanks In Advance!

 

[aquanata]

Hello everyone

I am glad to say my little friend has got the white stuff removed of one side of him. But I am still stuck with the fungus on his mouth that I wouldn’t say has got any better! I am on his last dose of salt as recommended today so I am doing his water change with the last salt dose. Now my question is how long should i continue with his saltwater or whether I should move onto the malachite green stuff. He is still eating his variety of food so he must be doing ok! Please see photos provided with the fungus on the lower bottom of his lip

Thanks In Advance!

Sorry for the delayed response!

The white lip actually seems slightly better but I'm only seeing it from a photo - you can see it better. He's been in the salt for 6 days now? I might try 1 day more of salt before clearing out the water & doing the 3 days of malachite green - but only if you've seen *no* improvement in the mouth.

I'm glad nothing has progressed!

 

[CoryMaster151]

Sorry for the delayed response!

The white lip actually seems slightly better but I'm only seeing it from a photo - you can see it better. He's been in the salt for 6 days now? I might try 1 day more of salt before clearing out the water & doing the 3 days of malachite green - but only if you've seen *no* improvement in the mouth.

I'm glad nothing has progressed!

Hello, Thanks for your continuous responses as I really appreciate it! I would have to agree a bit with you about the lip. Yes he has been in the salt for 6 days! Do I have to fully clear out the water to start with malachite green stuff for 3 days? And I’m not sure whether I should or not start with this treatment otherwise I am open to any other suggestions? Thanks heaps for all your advice!

 

[aquanata]

Hello, Thanks for your continuous responses as I really appreciate it! I would have to agree a bit with you about the lip. Yes he has been in the salt for 6 days! Do I have to fully clear out the water to start with malachite green stuff for 3 days? And I’m not sure whether I should or not start with this treatment otherwise I am open to any other suggestions? Thanks heaps for all your advice!

Opinions vary on salt treatment, it seems from 7-10 days. I tend towards limiting it to a week before bringing in the malachite green. Before treating with it, the tank can be changed out 50%. It doesn't need to be completely clear of salt - some treat with MG & salt simultaneously - so it's fine if some remains in the water.

No problem answering. I want your little guy to be your content companion for a good, long time.

 

[CoryMaster151]

Hello Everyone,

So today is the day I need to decide whether I want to go with the malachite green after the water change of 50% or whether I just should do the water change and see how he goes?

He is getting better slowly but still has that white thing that’s small on his mouth and a little bit of grey underneath him still but I’m at the end of the salt treatment? What should I do?

Thanks In Advance

 

[aquanata]

Hello Everyone,

So today is the day I need to decide whether I want to go with the malachite green after the water change of 50% or whether I just should do the water change and see how he goes?

He is getting better slowly but still has that white thing that’s small on his mouth and a little bit of grey underneath him still but I’m at the end of the salt treatment? What should I do?

Thanks In Advance

I don't know for sure what you should do, but if he were in my care, I'd want to wipe out any possible fungal growth entirely - particularly one as persistent as this. His mouth actually looks a lot better to me. I'd do the 3 days of malachite green & keep my fingers crossed.

He's still eating okay & getting frozen food as well as pellets?

 

[CoryMaster151]

I don't know for sure what you should do, but if he were in my care, I'd want to wipe out any possible fungal growth entirely - particularly one as persistent as this. His mouth actually looks a lot better to me. I'd do the 3 days of malachite green & keep my fingers crossed.

He's still eating okay & getting frozen food as well as pellets?

Yes I definitely would have to agree with you on wiping out all the fungal possible. I will do the 3 days and see how he goes! yes he ate frozen food yesterday and is still interested into his pellets! Thanks

 

[CoryMaster151]

Hello Everyone

I have dosed my bettas tank with malachite green and now have to wait 3 days for water change ! Thanks for your assistance and will update shortly!

 

[aquanata]

Hello Everyone

I have dosed my bettas tank with malachite green and now have to wait 3 days for water change ! Thanks for your assistance and will update shortly!

Fingers crossed the fungus is totally gone by day 3 & no more dosing is needed!

 

[CoryMaster151]

Hey Everyone

after the first day of having the tank dosed of malachite green I have noticed that he’s not as interested in his food! Is this normal? I have noticed though that, the white spot has come of his lip and is staying on there slightly so that’s some progress but I’m just a little concerned because he loves his food!

thanks heaps

 

[aquanata]

Hey Everyone

after the first day of having the tank dosed of malachite green I have noticed that he’s not as interested in his food! Is this normal? I have noticed though that, the white spot has come of his lip and is staying on there slightly so that’s some progress but I’m just a little concerned because he loves his food!

Yes - generally my betta tend to be off their food a bit whilst in malachite green - even goodies like worms. A few days of fasting is fine for them. Good news about the fungus! Sounds like just the 3 days should eliminate it! You'll still need his tank to be pristine when he's returned to it, but it certainly sounds like he's over the hump.

 

[CoryMaster151]

Hello everyone!

So today is the day 3 on malachite green I have just done his water change and the white stuff on his lip is so close too falling off as it’s very far facing forward rather than on it? Now he hasn’t eaten for 3 days either so I don’t want to dose it agian yet until he’s had something to eat. Or should I not dose it? He is still staying down the bottom of the tank most of the time and then comes up to the top to breathe and then back down. Is this normal?
Thanks in advance for your support!

 

[aquanata]

I'm wondering whether his not eating at all is more related to the fungus than the malachite green at this point. I can see from the white fecal castings that his gut is empty. I'd be tempted to finish this last day, clean up the tank & then watch & see. The lack of food isn't a real issue - fasting for a week or more shouldn't be a problem for him & he doesn't appear to be losing weight. I'm a bit more concerned that he's not being active. 6 days of salt & now 2 days of MG - I'd have expected to see the fungus wiped out.

How do you feel about his inactivity, watching him? He's upright, not bobbling over or completely fin-clamped? Is he looking like he's given up & totally lethargic? It's a toss up at this point as to whether the fungus (wish I had a sample!) is causing the lethargy or the treatment.

Ok. Sorry for all the thinking & asking. Given the info I have, I'd complete the last 24 hrs of MG. Then get him into his clean, darkened tank, with catappa leaves. Offer de-frosted frozen food at first or a small number of pellets so as to head off any constipation.

I'm sorry he's not responding quickly to treatment. Wish the pet trade paid more attention to health of animals than profit because this just isn't right. However, it seems your boy is more sturdy than many & given the treatment he's received, his body may be able to fight the rest of this off on its own once comfortably back in his own tank.

Hope it helps CoryMaster151.

 

[CoryMaster151]

Hello aquanata,

Well he was eating fine before we added the malachite green it was only when we added it that he went a bit of the food, He goes to eat one pellet in his mouth and then he spits it back out like he's struggling to swallow it but again that's since I added the MG. Im glad that he doesn't look to be loosing weight and I would have to agree. Same to be honest I was hoping that the salt treatment would make it go away but unfortunately it didn't

Watching him I notice he likes to sit at the top of the tank throughout the day and then at nighttime when its black he sits on the bottom of the tank and before any of this started he was very active throughout the day and he was always swimming around and wondering what we were doing but something else that I noticed is that the side fins has a little bit missing off it making it a little short and when he's at the top of the tank he doesn't flap his side fins that much! I wouldn't say he's fully given up and not totally lethargic.

Im starting to wonder whether this is actually a fungus but I'm so tempted to pull it off because it is facing forward and it looks like a long piece of something! Im going to try doing the frozen food tonight and then will get a proper idea if its just the pellets that he doesn't like. Im hoping I can help him as I really miss his old self!

I will agree that he is one sturdy boy and that he can fight these off hopefully in the next couple of days and yes I fully agree with you!

bellow is a photo of when I got him after a few weeks

thanks heaps

 

[CoryMaster151]

Hello Again,

I have just checked on my boy and he seems to be breathing a little rapidly out of his gills sitting on the bottom of the tank! I have just done about a 60% water change about 2 hours ago and he hasn’t really moved! I’m not sure whether I should add some salt to improve the gill function as it says on the box? He was eating throughout the salt treatment! I am open to any suggestions of how to make him feel a bit more comfortable and slow down his breathing. He is still not interested in the food since the start of the MG treatment. And Should I have his heater on at 26°C? I have had it on for the past week through the MG treatment but I’m wondering whether that’s making it decrease oxygen?

Hope To Hear Back From You Shortly
Thanks Heaps For Your Support!

 

[aquanata]

Hello Again,

I have just checked on my boy and he seems to be breathing a little rapidly out of his gills sitting on the bottom of the tank! I have just done about a 60% water change about 2 hours ago and he hasn’t really moved! I’m not sure whether I should add some salt to improve the gill function as it says on the box? He was eating throughout the salt treatment! I am open to any suggestions of how to make him feel a bit more comfortable and slow down his breathing. He is still not interested in the food since the start of the MG treatment. And Should I have his heater on at 26°C? I have had it on for the past week through the MG treatment but I’m wondering whether that’s making it decrease oxygen?

Hope To Hear Back From You Shortly
Thanks Heaps For Your Support!

Does he have a bubbler or filter running? Has he had it running this whole time? The water changes alone should be sufficiently oxygenating the water but he needs the filtration or bubbling too. The rapid breathing is usually a sign of distress rather lack of oxygen.

Can you clarify for me where he is - hospital or regular tank? Filtered or bubbled? Betta normally should be at 80F (about 26.7C) & 82F (27.8) with most illnesses.

Wherever he is, remove him from any MG medicated water in case this is a reaction to that. The salt isn't specific to gill function but to osmotic pressure throughout his body. See how he does in fresh, conditioned water before treating with salt again.

Just because you're in Oz & it's a possibility - do you know your water pH? 6 or higher right?

I'm so sorry he's going back down this slope.

 

[CoryMaster151]

Does he have a bubbler or filter running? Has he had it running this whole time? The water changes alone should be sufficiently oxygenating the water but he needs the filtration or bubbling too. The rapid breathing is usually a sign of distress rather lack of oxygen.

Can you clarify for me where he is - hospital or regular tank? Filtered or bubbled? Betta normally should be at 80F (about 26.7C) & 82F (27.8) with most illnesses.

Wherever he is, remove him from any MG medicated water in case this is a reaction to that. The salt isn't specific to gill function but to osmotic pressure throughout his body. See how he does in fresh, conditioned water before treating with salt again.

Just because you're in Oz & it's a possibility - do you know your water pH? 6 or higher right?

I'm so sorry he's going back down this slope.

Thanks for the quick reply! He has a bubbler and filter running with no carbon in it. He is in his tank that had the mg in it but I did a 70% water change today and 50% 2 days ago.

i don’t dose with conditioner because I run pure rain water and don’t have chlorinated water and my water comes out neutral at ph 7 and his current temp is 26°C. He doesn’t have any live plants in his tank at the moment because the mg would have killed them and the rocks would have got stained.
The only reason I suggested salt is because he was doing well in that so I didn’t know if that would help?

I don’t really know what to do but hope to help him to my full abilities

thanks heaps aquanata for your assistance! Really appreciate it. This is my second betta that has got unwell in the last 2 years so I’m a little annoyed! But i don’t know?

 

[Flyfisha]

Sorry CoryMaster151 I have not read all of the #38 posts but I did read you last post in which you wrote that you use 100% rain water. Are you adding any minerals to the water? What is the GH of rain water, zero?

 

[CoryMaster151]

Sorry CoryMaster151 I have not read all of the #38 posts but I did read you last post in which you wrote that you use 100% rain water. Are you adding any minerals to the water? What is the GH of rain water, zero?

Hello. No I don’t add any minerals and I do not know my GH but I imagine it would be close to zero. Would me adding no minerals be a problem?
Thanks

 

[Flyfisha]

Yes zero minerals is a problem long term for fish ( and plants) . I am not sure what the minimum GH is for betta but would think they are a soft water species like Amazon river fish needing about 60 ppm or 6 degrees German?

Seachem sell equilibrium that is suitable for planted tanks . There are other brands but some use more sodium ( salt ) and are not recommended for plants.

Seachem - Equilibrium
Yes zero minerals is a problem long term .
I would research more than one quick search on google but it could be 70 ppm is a minimum?
Betta Care Guide | Betta Fish Forum

API make a liquid test kit for GH . You will be adding whatever number of teaspoons to every water change bucket.

I am not getting good phone reception as i am in a rain storm. Perhaps my posts are arriving?

 

[aquanata]

Hello. No I don’t add any minerals and I do not know my GH but I imagine it would be close to zero. Would me adding no minerals be a problem?
Thanks

This is not my area of expertise but may explain this betta's current, treatment resistant condition & the loss of the previous one. Here's a link to a fishlore thread about using pure rain water.

Rainwater Appears To Be Killing Fish ? Any Ideas? | Aquarium Water Forum

 

[CoryMaster151]

Yes zero minerals is a problem long term for fish ( and plants) . I am not sure what the minimum GH is for betta but would think they are a soft water species like Amazon river fish needing about 60 ppm or 6 degrees German?

Seachem sell equilibrium that is suitable for planted tanks . There are other brands but some use more sodium ( salt ) and are not recommended for plants.

Yes zero minerals is a problem long term .
I would research more than one quick search on google but it could be 70 ppm is a minimum?

API make a liquid test kit for GH . You will be adding whatever number of teaspoons to every water change bucket.

Yeah right. I run a 200L fish tank and have had fish in there for quite a while for about 2 years and have had no problems. I had my previous betta and he lasted the same amount of time as this one and then got fin rot and deteriorated very quickly! That’s why I’m thinking I must be doing something wrong?

Question though? Would having fruit next to this fish tank be affecting anything with the occasional rotten fruit?
I am tempted to add salt tomorrow to add some electrolytes to the water which I’m hoping will give a boost, what are your thoughts?

Can you use equilibrium on fish as well?

thanks heaps & appreciate your fast responses
Thanks heaps. I am going to order one of these GH test kits and see what it is then will look into how to dose with minerals. Thanks

 

[Flyfisha]

Equilibrium is for fish and plants.

Seachem replenish is not for plants.
Seachem - Replenish

Adding salt is a pour substitute for a complete mineral replacement. It’s better than nothing but not a long term solution.

I doubt a bowl of old fruit would be an issue?

 

[aquanata]

Yeah right. I run a 200L fish tank and have had fish in there for quite a while for about 2 years and have had no problems. I had my previous betta and he lasted the same amount of time as this one and then got fin rot and deteriorated very quickly! That’s why I’m thinking I must be doing something wrong?

Question though? Would having fruit next to this fish tank be affecting anything with the occasional rotten fruit?
I am tempted to add salt tomorrow to add some electrolytes to the water which I’m hoping will give a boost, what are your thoughts?

Can you use equilibrium on fish as well?

thanks heaps & appreciate your fast responses
Thanks heaps. I am going to order one of these GH test kits and see what it is then will look into how to dose with minerals. Thanks

If anything, the odd swimming fruit fly would be manna for the betta. Whole papayas falling in the tank, not so much.

From what I've briefly read on infection & animal health in unamended rain water, I'd be concerned that opportunistic infection moves remorselessly thru animals with suboptimal health due to lack of necessary minerals. I've been puzzled by the very slow positive treatment response of this little guy & this may explain it. I'd add the aquarium salt as you thought & amend with the equilibrium as soon as you can.

Hoping for the best!

 

[CoryMaster151]

Equilibrium is for fish and plants.

Seachem replenish is not for plants.
Seachem - Replenish

Adding salt is a pour substitute for a complete mineral replacement. It’s better than nothing but not a long term solution.

I doubt a bowl of old fruit would be an issue?

Ok thanks. I will go and get some equilibrium probably tomorrow but will just do one dose of salt and I understand it’s not a long term solution.
I didn’t think having fruit next to the tank would be a problem but I remember last time their was like this layer on top of the water that made it thick and didn’t allow the water to move!
If their is anything else I can do please let me know!
thanks for your response & support

If anything, the odd swimming fruit fly would be manna for the betta. Whole papayas falling in the tank, not so much.

From what I've briefly read on infection & animal health in unamended rain water, I'd be concerned that opportunistic infection moves remorselessly thru animals with suboptimal health due to lack of necessary minerals. I've been puzzled by the very slow positive treatment response of this little guy & this may explain it. I'd add the aquarium salt as you thought & amend with the equilibrium as soon as you can.

Hoping for the best!

Yeah ok. I thought rain water would be on of the best things in fish keeping but I understand how it has not minerals. Before we drink and use the rain water it goes through a carbon filter and it pumped into the house. Yes I was honestly expecting the treatment to do very good on him but I can see why not. I am going to add salt now and then try and get some equilibrium as soon as I can!

Thanks heaps for your responses and I really appreciate it!

 

[Flyfisha]

When you can get that GH test kit you mentioned in an earlier post.

What filter do you use that does not break the surface of the water constantly?
Oxygen is transferred to the water at the surface. It’s always important to have a little movement on the surface.

The powdered minerals will need to be measured in to every bucket. Always the same amount. Perhaps only half a teaspoon is needed per 20 litres/ 5 gallons?

 

[CoryMaster151]

I use one of these filters. And also to mention I have an air stone running! Their is quite a fair bit of water movement. When I get the equilibrium do I have to keep adding it to every bucket or can I mix it in a jug and add it then add the rest of the water? How do you understand the dosage on the back of the container and will it affect the KH?
Thanks

When you can get that GH test kit you mentioned in an earlier post.

What filter do you use that does not break the surface of the water constantly?
Oxygen is transferred to the water at the surface. It’s always important to have a little movement on the surface.

The powdered minerals will need to be measured in to every bucket. Always the same amount. Perhaps only half a teaspoon is needed per 20 litres/ 5 gallons?

 

[Flyfisha]

I see your filter spray bar and air stone . That should have enough movement for oxygen. I am confused about the statement that the tank had a “layer on top “ last time.? How can that be?

The instructions for any of the powders are confusing I agree.

Only a GH test kit will tell you how many teaspoons of powder is needed per 20 litres / 5 gallon / one litre to raise what you have to whatever is needed.
Add one teaspoon to a 5 gallon. When dissolved test the GH . If more is needed add two teaspoons.
It would be best to increase the GH slowly over a few weeks not all at once . IMO? .

When I was using powder I did it at the same time as adding the conditioner in order to be certain . It may not matter when you add it ?

Do not worry about KH . My local club president says as long as you have enough KH to hold the PH stable it is not important how much a fresh water tank has. Around 5 or 6 ppm KH will hold the PH stable. Some people say even less?

 

[CoryMaster151]

I see your filter spray bar and air stone . That should have enough movement for oxygen. I am confused about the statement that the tank had a “layer on top “ last time.? How can that be?

The instructions for any of the powders are confusing I agree.

Only a GH test kit will tell you how many teaspoons of powder is needed per 20 litres / 5 gallon / one litre to raise what you have to whatever is needed.
Add one teaspoon to a 5 gallon. When dissolved test the GH . If more is needed add two teaspoons.
It would be best to increase the GH slowly over a few weeks not all at once . IMO? .

When I was using powder I did it at the same time as adding the conditioner in order to be certain . It may not matter when you add it ?

Do not worry about KH . My local club president says as long as you have enough KH to hold the PH stable it is not important how much a fresh water tank has. Around 5 or 6 ppm KH will hold the PH stable. Some people say even less?

Hello,
Yeah somehow there was a layer of like a slime or something on top to be honest I don’t know how to really explain it… but I knew as soon as I moved the fruit a little further away instead of having the fruit right next to the tank it went away? So I don’t know?

I am going to get a GH test tomorrow with the powder and yes I agree to slowly adding the Chemicals and fiquring out the amount! What GH should bettas like?
thanks heaps! ☺️