A New Seachem Prime Competitor...


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Went to a far PetSmart today and saw API Aqua Essential - a water conditioner that claims to do what Seachem Prime does; removes chloramine, chlorine, heavy metals and detoxifies ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates BUT for cheaper (Prime was $14USD for 8oz, Aqua Essential was $12 for the same amount.) What do y'all think - fin or fraud?
I guess someone'll have to try it out and see! If it says it does all of that, I'd say its Fin. However, I do love API so it might just be me ;)
 

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BUT for cheaper (Prime was $14USD for 8oz, Aqua Essential was $12 for the same amount.) What do y'all think - fin or fraud?

but is it the same concentration?
 
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wut? 1ml per 10 gallons?!?! I shouldve switched to Prime already!! why havent I?
Oh Prime is awesome, and if Aqua Essentials turns out to be fin and not fraud, it'd be a better price :)
 

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Oh Prime is awesome, and if Aqua Essentials turns out to be fin and not fraud, it'd be a better price :)
oh pleco poo. I WAS gonna switch to Prime, but now I gotta wait to see if APIAE is good, however I'm nearly out of conditioner, what to do D:
 
Lovely lady from API sent me a bottle. I could use it after I finish my bottle of API stress coat, or use the other bottles they sent me such has their high concentration conditioner. I can test it out later but I feel like i should just use up the other conditioners they sent me instead of the Essentials and to save that instead of any possible spikes to detoxify. I can always try and in fish cycle with it on a spare 10 gallon I might have laying around.
 
Went to a far PetSmart today and saw API Aqua Essential - a water conditioner that claims to do what Seachem Prime does; removes chloramine, chlorine, heavy metals and detoxifies ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates BUT for cheaper (Prime was $14USD for 8oz, Aqua Essential was $12 for the same amount.) What do y'all think - fin or fraud?
Does API offer any evidence to support the "detoxifies ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates" claims or is it just like Prime in that regard also? :D
 
Does API offer any evidence to support the "detoxifies ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates" claims or is it just like Prime in that regard also? :D
API is a pretty big player in the game so I'm sure it would behoove them that their product works somewhat to what they describe, but hey...you never know lol. I figured they didn't want to lose sales to Seachem in the detoxifying/conditioner department lol so I wasn't too surprised they came out with Essentials. From what I read, as far as conditioner goes...everyone talks about prime. I actually didn't even know Essentials came out until I received it in the box that API sent me.
 

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Went to a far PetSmart today and saw API Aqua Essential - a water conditioner that claims to do what Seachem Prime does; removes chloramine, chlorine, heavy metals and detoxifies ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates BUT for cheaper (Prime was $14USD for 8oz, Aqua Essential was $12 for the same amount.) What do y'all think - fin or fraud?
Ive seen a guy who has used it for a while, his youtube is MD tanks. I think it would work well.
 
Neither did I!
Prime and Fritz Complete *battling for best conditioner*
PLAYER 3 Has joined (AE)
 
I only switched to Prime a year ago after joining this group and reading about how great it was. (used API conditioner prior to that, still have some too)

Considering the small dosing amount required and the size of my bottle it'll be a while until I need another.
Someone should really do a "test" to see if Prime is legit. Like have live constant Tests or something.
Aquarium science guy did and says it doesn't do anything to detoxify ammonia or nitrites.
 
Someone should really do a "test" to see if Prime is legit. Like have live constant Tests or something.
It has been done by chemists. It's been shown to have no effect on ammonia. Seachem has acknowledged that they only have anecdotal "evidence" suggesting that Prime neutralizes ammonia, but no actual testing.

Prime IS legit as a water conditioner, it just doesn't do anything else. It's my go-to conditioner.
 
i'm an anecdotal believer in Prime. i've had a couple of Nitrite spikes over the past couple years. each time the goldfish were visibly distressed. nitrite tested dark purple, did 50% water change, still purple. added a double dose of Prime, a few minutes later all the goldfish were swimming around normally.

i started with the 16oz bottles from Petsmart. then i started buying the 1gal jugs off ebay. now i have a 1gal bucket of Safe (powder Prime).
 
i'm an anecdotal believer in Prime. i've had a couple of Nitrite spikes over the past couple years. each time the goldfish were visibly distressed. nitrite tested dark purple, did 50% water change, still purple. added a double dose of Prime, a few minutes later all the goldfish were swimming around normally.

i started with the 16oz bottles from Petsmart. then i started buying the 1gal jugs off ebay. now i have a 1gal bucket of Safe (powder Prime).
Thats awsome! how big is your tank?
 

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Thats awsome! how big is your tank?

started with two 20g tubs. then a 29g tank, then a 75g and turned the 29g into a sump for the 75g.

also, from what i remember, probably not 100% accurate, but wasn't Amquel Kordon the 1st or one of the 1st to detox ammonia? they used some sort of sulfur compound. Seachem Prime/Safe uses a different sulfur compound to get around the patent.
 
here's their patent about detoxing ammonia.

from page 5
In summary, the invention relates to a process for neutralizing chloramines, chlorine and ammonia in water by adding an alkali metal formaldehydebisulfite in a dry or solution form in which the alkali metal formaldehydebisulfite is selected from the group consisting of sodium formaldehydebisulfite and potassium formaldehydebisulfite. In a preferred embodiment, the alkali metal formaldehydebisulfite is sodium formaldehydebisulfite added in the amount at least equal to the greater of the quantity required to react on a one to one molecular basis with a reactant selected from the group consisting of 4 times the stoichiometric amount of ammonia, 12 times the stoichiometric amount of monochloramine, 10 times the stoichiometric amount of dichloramine and 12 times the stoichiometric amount of chlorine in the form of hypochlorites present in the water to be treated.

Unless otherwise stated herein, indication of parts or percentages are given on a weight basis. I have discovered that an alkali metal formaldehydebisulfite is unexpectedly effective and safe to neutralize chlorine, chloramine and ammonia from saline and fresh waters for use in aquaculture. A pure alkali metal formaldehydebisulfite, a mixture of alkali metal formaldehydebisulfites, or a mixture of one or more alkali metal formaldehydebisulfites with various diluents, carriers or other inert ingredients can be utilized directly in dry or solution form in untreated water to neutralize by chemical reaction any aqueous chloramines, chlorine and ammonia which may be present in order to render the water nontoxic for aquatic life.

Neither the reaction mechanism, nor the reaction products, by which the phenomena of neutralizing chloramines, chlorine and ammonia in water with an alkali metal formaldehydebisulfite is understood. However, experimental research shows reaction completion of sodium formaldehydebisulfite and the representative target compounds including free chlorine in the form of sodium hypochlorite (NaOCI), free ammonia (NH3), and monochloramine (NH2CI) to eliminate the toxic effects of the target compounds in aquaculture. The results show that under conditions of varying pH, hardness, and salinity that sodium formaldehydebisulfite was capable of simultaneously reducing the concentrations of all three representative target compounds to safe levels. Further research indicates effectiveness under representative aquaculture working conditions by reducing free ammonia levels in existing freshwater and marine aquarium water and by neutralizing free chlorine and chloramines in freshly drawn potable tap water.
also i have read that Prime contains sodium dithionite, which has been shown to reverse the effects of methemoglobin, which is caused by nitrite poisoning.


Reduction and suppression of methemoglobin loaded in the polymeric nanoparticles intended for blood substitutes - PubMed


Abstract:

Oxidation of hemoglobin (Hb) to nonfunctional methemoglobin (metHb) is a main challenge for the fabrication of an ideal Hb-based blood substitute. In this study, a novel nonenzymatic reduction and suppression route, combined with a fast prereduction, optimized double emulsion preparation, and a second sustaining postreduction, was developed to control the metHb in Hb-loaded nanoparticles (HbP) with porous microstructure to a desirable level. In the prereduction, the metHb in the raw Hb was effectively reduced from over 90% to 1.2% using sodium dithionite following gel filtration separation. During the preparation, higher the emulsion strength performed, higher was the extent of Hb oxidized. PEGylated polymer and addition of miscible solvent, such as acetonitrile, into the oil phase could pronouncedly suppress metHb formation. The resultant metHb level in HbP under the optimal fabrication was about 5.6%, which could be further reduced to 1.4% by the model reducing agents in human plasma with the help of superoxide dismutatse and catalase system, which are capable of sustaining postreduction. The oxygen dissociation curve of the HbP was close to that of native Hb, indicating that the oxygen-carrying ability of the Hb, despite initially losing this function due to the severe oxidation, recovered and retained well. The results achieved are promising for the fabrication of blood substitutes with controlled metHb level, which can fulfill the binding/delivering oxygen to tissues in vivo for future trials.
 

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that API Aqua Essential saysd it's 5ml per 50 gallons, as a dechlorinator, Add 5 ml. per 10 gallons of aquarium water to remove ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate.

prime is just 5ml per 50 gallons.

Fritz Complete, is the same dosage as Prime, so of the 3, Aqua Essential uses more product to do the same thing, hence costs more overall.

As far as Prime and Fritz, they do different measures for the packaging, Fritz is in Oz, and Prime is in ML, Prime is a little more expensive, but I think by volume, the prices are close to near the same.
like Prime is 250ml (8.45oz) = $9.89 and Fritz is $9.24 for 8 oz.(236ml) prices may vary where you are of course. the difference is like 1/1000 of a cent per ml prime being slightly more costly.

Personal preference, Prime. It works fine for me since I found it, I trust it, and I've not lost fish to ammonia or nitrites, or even nitrates.
MAYBE, it's my pH, and totally not Prime related, I will say this, when I didn't use it and just used a simple dechlorinator, I lost fish, I had problems. THe articles on aquarium science, are incredibly Anti SeaChem,and Anti prime. Studys are done just like polls, to prove or disprove whatever they like depending on who's study it is.

Believe or don't believe it's up to you. Seachem and Fritz and API now make the same claims, So at this point you'd think one or the other, or the other, have cracked the secret, and it's doing something and someone must be bitter for some reason.

heck, don't use any of it, just use a dechlorinator and best of luck, that probably works most of the time also, considering how much ammonia is ammonia at aquarium pHs, ect. ect. ect.
 
I've just switched from Prime to Continuum Aquatics Fraction which is the same strength but I can get it more than 30% cheaper.
 
that API Aqua Essential saysd it's 5ml per 50 gallons, as a dechlorinator, Add 5 ml. per 10 gallons of aquarium water to remove ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate.

prime is just 5ml per 50 gallons.
From Seachem: To detoxify nitrite in an emergency, up to 5 times normal dose (of Prime) may be used. That would be 5ml per 10 gal.

Prime does claim that it is the most concentrated product on the market except for one other Seachem product.
 
I use seachum safe with my 75 grow out. 1/4 a teaspoon for 75 gallons. my son had this little scooper thing that came with his pretzel cheese dip that comes out to 1/4 of a teaspoon and I literally use a tiny dash of it in a 5 gallon bucket, depending on which method I’m going for.
i’ve only ever dose the tank one time using the 1/4 tablespoon. A couple months back there was a power outage and I need to do a water change. I had a spike of ammonia and so I put some water from the tank in a bucket filled it up and then dumped it into my tank. Fish didn’t seem to notice or anything although I was a little concerned I know this concentration is typically for pond use so following directions it’s very important.
Anyway, the ammonia that was a little over one ppm was undetectable in 25 minutes after three Test about 7 to 10 minutes apart. Power came back on the next morning I checked the ammonia was still at zero, but I went ahead and did a water change. But I paid $30 for the container six months ago and I’m not sure that I can even notice a difference in the line.
I absolutely feel that the larger volume of water you have the more benefit you’ll have from using something like this, but I still have had great success with it.
I also respect everybody’s opinions, beliefs, and thoughts on this forum. I’m just sharing what works for me and my journey.
 
Interesting. If you had used Prime, your ammonia test results would have not changed. Prime is claimed to detox ammonia, but Seachem says that it will be not efffect the test results. While the ammonia is "detoxed" it is still present, measurable with testing and available to the bacteria to consume.

I would have assumed that Safe was just Prime in powder form because their patent says it works as a liquid or solid, but who knows...?

Edit: just noticed that there is one difference between the 2 products. Prime detoxifies heavy metals and safe does not.
 
School should make people sensitive to logical fallacies from an early age on.

Here's the best study I know of, killing Prime's detox capabilities.

Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

If you are a supplier claiming product P affects process T within X time given conditions A, B and C, you should at least disclose a paper which proves this in a falsifiable manner.

Falsifiable means you can replicate the study at home and see for yourself.

But there's nothing.

It's amazing how many people fall for this with 0 proof. Or actually, there is limited proof it doesn't do anything.

I still need to study jtjgg's paper though.
 

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Interesting. If you had used Prime, your ammonia test results would have not changed. Prime is claimed to detox ammonia, but Seachem says that it will be not efffect the test results. While the ammonia is "detoxed" it is still present, measurable with testing and available to the bacteria to consume.

I would have assumed that Safe was just Prime in powder form because their patent says it works as a liquid or solid, but who knows...?
This conversation is getting above my ability to think. This is my modest thought my tank had been off for like 18 hours and I did several small feedings during that time and my tank was cycled. The spike happened because the system was off and the beneficial bacteria that was in my hanging back wasn’t getting utilized.
I still don’t quite understand under that understanding why in 25 minutes I got a zero reading, but the next morning was more understandable because it’s fighting fighting fighting it until my beneficial bacteria can catch up. I still had a bunch in my tank. It just wasn’t enough to fight off three or four feedings. But I will include a picture of the back where it says it removes so I’m not exactly sure.
 

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ruud, thanks for posting that. I've have not been allowed to do so myself as it got me in trouble with moderators.
This conversation is getting above my ability to think. This is my modest thought my tank had been off for like 18 hours and I did several small feedings during that time and my tank was cycled. The spike happened because the system was off and the beneficial bacteria that was in my hanging back wasn’t getting utilized.
I still don’t quite understand under that understanding why in 25 minutes I got a zero reading, but the next morning was more understandable because it’s fighting fighting fighting it until my beneficial bacteria can catch up. I still had a bunch in my tank. It just wasn’t enough to fight off three or four feedings. But I will include a picture of the back where it says it removes so I’m not exactly sure.
I'm not doubting you at all. Just trying to get my head around this topic too. :)
 
This conversation is getting above my ability to think. This is my modest thought my tank had been off for like 18 hours and I did several small feedings during that time and my tank was cycled. The spike happened because the system was off and the beneficial bacteria that was in my hanging back wasn’t getting utilized.
I still don’t quite understand under that understanding why in 25 minutes I got a zero reading, but the next morning was more understandable because it’s fighting fighting fighting it until my beneficial bacteria can catch up. I still had a bunch in my tank. It just wasn’t enough to fight off three or four feedings. But I will include a picture of the back where it says it removes so I’m not exactly sure.

Any dechlorinator might have done the same. Read this page of the thread I posted above:

Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

Keep in mind, multiple factors affect readings, and at different paces. Very short term, factor X could have reduced a reading. A day later, factor Y could have reduced a reading. But because factor X was a human intervention, and factor Y is something you are unaware off, you attribute the second reading to factor X also.
ruud, thanks for posting that. I've have not been allowed to do so myself as it got me in trouble with moderators.

I'm not doubting you at all. Just trying to get my head around this topic too. :)

Is Seachem sponsor of Fishlore? ;)
 
School should make people sensitive to logical fallacies from an early age on.

Here's the best study I know of, killing Prime's detox capabilities.

Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

If you are a supplier claiming product P affects process T within X time given conditions A, B and C, you should at least disclose a paper which proves this in a falsifiable manner.

Falsifiable means you can replicate the study at home and see for yourself.

But there's nothing.

It's amazing how many people fall for this with 0 proof. Or actually, there is limited proof it doesn't do anything.
I would like to see this done on a broader scale with a larger spectrum of products. But OK. Hard to ignore evidence
 
If you are a supplier claiming product P affects process T within X time given conditions A, B and C, you should at least disclose a paper which proves this in a falsifiable manner.
They do say they have no idea how it works, but that customers tell them that it does. Apparently that's all they need as proof...
But OK. Hard to ignore evidence
Not for some.
 
I think it’ll be interesting to do that test with seachum, safe with beneficial bacteria in the water because on the back of this, it says it neutralizes it to a compound then the beneficial bacteria neutralizes it giving the reading of zero
 
I think it’ll be interesting to do that test with seachum, safe with beneficial bacteria in the water because on the back of this, it says it neutralizes it to a compound then the beneficial bacteria neutralizes it giving the reading of zero

"it neutralizes it to a compound then the beneficial bacteria neutralizes it giving the reading of zero"

I have absolutely no idea what this means. Perhaps the marketing guy at Seachem can elaborate.

It's like saying "we know fish deaths are probably almost never attributable to ammonia/nitrogen, but let's blame ammonia for all deaths" .... "also in most fish tanks, NH3 is neglible" ... "also a few studies have shown NH3 kills only slowly, not overnight, giving beneficial microbes time to populate" ... "in planted tanks, who even cares about ammonia, well plants do of course" ... "so dose whatever Prime, Safe, or whatever sulfite you have, and your fish will be fine - 100.000 believers can't be wrong". Truth is oftentimes democratic.
 
Personal story.
I use seachem prime, I change water now weekly 50%. I'm been up front in other threads about why I change so much water on that tank and my current over stocking level so neither is a secret, just not very important to the story here. What is important is my pH is now coming up. 6.4 on the previous water change, 6.6 on the latest water change last weekend. With that pH rise, I have nitrites, currently sitting at 1ppm. it's been as high as 5ppm this time last week and not as high as 10ppm but was heading that way. it's coming down now, but when I hit 6.4, this is when it appeared and ran up and now back down. Adjustments of the bacteria colony with the pH change I assume. the nitrite rise also coincided with a massive diatom bloom that is now also getting under control with the nitrites going down again.

Anyways, Prime works for like 24- 48 hours. I do not dose it outside of the water change at all, and fish do not die from 5ppm nitrites or even higher for like even days. no visible effect to them at all.

So is it the prime? Are some fish just more sensitive than other species to nitrites? does pH and temp have an effect on nitrites?
Theres' about 100 questions really, and the answer is,,,,, who knows. I know if I were new to fishkeeping and I tested ammonia or nitrites and saw 5ppm, and dosed prime and the fish lived, I'd assume,"yeah, prime does what it says" . However, knowing more about water and pH and ammonia and nitrogen cycle, and yada yada, I'd think it doesn't do anything and it's likely the natural process doing it and not killing things.

As far as it goes, a bunch of products make this claim now, do ANY of them actually do anything to ammonia or nitrites that the temp and pH couldn't do itself, or some other random set of circumstances and fish tolerances that make a high reading still safe that gets attributed to these products.... Could be, most likely actually.

I can't blame a company for marketing, people say it works, just like people say those red copper pans are nonstick, but every one I have needs to be scrubbed like no tomorrow after cooking anything in it, everything sticks like it's coated with glue. LOL

it's a dechlorinator, and I use far less of it to do the job than other products, it's why I use it. What's in it and the process, well, that's proprietary and they aren't sharing, rather they are being vague when asked how it works and change the answers given when called out that it's not plausible. It's not that they don't know, come on. They know what it does or doesn't do, but if people are going to tell them "hey this worked to keep my fish alive!", why not run with those testimonies.

I mean Ammonia tests in the hobby as an example. Since introduced they are total ammonia nitrate (TAN) tests. it gives you ammonia and ammonium totals in the readings, the only one that is concerning is the ammonia. Nobody knows this until experience sets in, the petstores don't know this either for the most part or how to read the ammonia test and cross it with the pH test to figure out how much free ammonia there might be and if it's dangerous for the fish or not.
Rather than use a Free ammonia nitrate test (FAN), which likely wouldn't be sensitive enough in an aquarium setting, unless really expensive tool, so it can't be done cheaply, the hobby as a whole just says "ammonia bad, don't have ammonia", and tells people above .50 or 1ppm ammonia will kill their fish.

in my opinion, THAT's WHERE the misleading and cashgrab starts and everyone is just riding it out. how many water tests get sold a year? of those "kits" sold how many of people know the ammonia test isn't even close to accurate about the danger level that is present?

What if I told you I don't even test for ammonia ever like at least 5 years now, more like 10 years.

Man I wanted to when I saw the nitrites, bet on that, but I don't even own a method to test it and instead let it ride, having faith in my pH, my bacteria colony, and my fish as well as my ability to water change if anyone acted weird... they haven't, but I DO NOT think the dosing prime 1x a week with a 50% water change is protecting me, sure it's protecting them from chlorine, that's about it.

I could however say it must be the prime, it's the only thing I use, what else could it be? I could say that if I didn't understand more about this than a beginner does.

There's people that swear pH 9.2 alkaline water is healthy to drink, that it's going to have some beneficial effect, I say "HOW"?
Once it's hits your stomach it's pH 1.5-2.0 just like the acid in there and everything else you swallow.
(by the way as the high alkaline water sits without a buffer open to the air, it loses pH the moment it's in contact with air, but the believers don't believe that either, the fishkeeprs know this though!)

Marketing. I won't go as far to call stuff snake oil, I will say people believe and trust what they believe and trust and there's no telling them otherwise. is it dishonest to sell people what they want and believe in? Perhaps....but there's a whole lot of that out there, not just with prime.
 
If I don’t read the word prime 20+ times a day across the board id be shocked. Since the internet it finishes many sentences on aquarium forums. Not just hear every site every Facebook sites. Id think people are getting royalty checks :eek:. It wasn’t even around 40 yrs ago the 80s:eek:. What did people do? How did they keep tanks?

Of all the gimmicky stuff in this hobby I’ve found prime does detoxify chlorine. The only time I use it is when the water company is cleaning the pipes. My charcoal filter and prime have saved my fish a few times. So for that I do keep it and may use it a few times a year.
 
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This conversation is getting above my ability to think. This is my modest thought my tank had been off for like 18 hours and I did several small feedings during that time and my tank was cycled. The spike happened because the system was off and the beneficial bacteria that was in my hanging back wasn’t getting utilized.
I still don’t quite understand under that understanding why in 25 minutes I got a zero reading, but the next morning was more understandable because it’s fighting fighting fighting it until my beneficial bacteria can catch up. I still had a bunch in my tank. It just wasn’t enough to fight off three or four feedings. But I will include a picture of the back where it says it removes so I’m not exactly sure.
So weird...Safe says it detoxifies nitrates so the biofilter can remove it more easily. But that doesn't make sense. Nitrate is hardly toxic in the first place, and beneficial bacteria don't eat it so it can't be taken away in the biofilter.
fish do not die from 5ppm nitrites or even higher for like even days. no visible effect to them at all.
I agree - I once had a nitrite spike a few years back with no fish loss or signs of stress. I don't think it's as toxic as people say. Still better to be on the safe side, since anything in high enough concentration can be toxic (ever heard of water poisoning in humans?)
it's a dechlorinator, and I use far less of it to do the job than other products, it's why I use it. What's in it and the process, well, that's proprietary and they aren't sharing, rather they are being vague when asked how it works and change the answers given when called out that it's not plausible. It's not that they don't know, come on. They know what it does or doesn't do, but if people are going to tell them "hey this worked to keep my fish alive!", why not run with those testimonies.

I mean Ammonia tests in the hobby as an example. Since introduced they are total ammonia nitrate (TAN) tests. it gives you ammonia and ammonium totals in the readings, the only one that is concerning is the ammonia. Nobody knows this until experience sets in, the petstores don't know this either for the most part or how to read the ammonia test and cross it with the pH test to figure out how much free ammonia there might be and if it's dangerous for the fish or not.
Rather than use a Free ammonia nitrate test (FAN), which likely wouldn't be sensitive enough in an aquarium setting, unless really expensive tool, so it can't be done cheaply, the hobby as a whole just says "ammonia bad, don't have ammonia", and tells people above .50 or 1ppm ammonia will kill their fish.

in my opinion, THAT's WHERE the misleading and cashgrab starts and everyone is just riding it out. how many water tests get sold a year? of those "kits" sold how many of people know the ammonia test isn't even close to accurate about the danger level that is present?
Right...that's a common issue. Fish deaths to due ammonia. Folks just need to CYCLE their tanks, and know pH effects on ammonia.
What if I told you I don't even test for ammonia ever like at least 5 years now, more like 10 years.
Same here. My oldest tank is 3 years old (I've been in the hobby for 11 years now I think?) but I frequently change out tanks and stock (I rescue fish and find good homes for them - I can't keep everyone...) Anyhow, I haven't tested ammonia or nitrite in that tank since.
There's people that swear pH 9.2 alkaline water is healthy to drink, that it's going to have some beneficial effect, I say "HOW"?
Once it's hits your stomach it's pH 1.5-2.0 just like the acid in there and everything else you swallow.
(by the way as the high alkaline water sits without a buffer open to the air, it loses pH the moment it's in contact with air, but the believers don't believe that either, the fishkeeprs know this though!)
You just brought up another topic that I hate...Your body is meant to keep things stable. Drinking 9.4 pH water WON'T DO ANYTHING. It has 0 health effects and literally doesn't even enter your body at the same pH. Stomach acid instantly brings it down to 1.5-5 (depending on the person.) Then it neutralizes it to 7.35-7.45 (pH of blood) so it can safely travel in your bloodstream. In other words, not only does alkaline water instantly NOT WORK, but it has 0 health effects. Well, you can technically say it has negative health effects when it drains your money and leads to stress.
Marketing. I won't go as far to call stuff snake oil, I will say people believe and trust what they believe and trust and there's no telling them otherwise. is it dishonest to sell people what they want and believe in? Perhaps....but there's a whole lot of that out there, not just with prime.
True. When we attempt to avoid GMO's, we still eat fruit and keep glofish. Those expensive organic bananas are genetically modified. And yes, the term 'organic' is also a scam. Thanks to marketing and disinformation (intentionally lying to consumers), folks think organic apples haven't been genetically modified or treated with pesticides, herbicides, fungicides. The truth is here. The definition of organic is a material or organism that wasn't created in a lab. Artifical is a food or object that was. Organic foods aren't cide-free. If they were, bugs would've gotten to them sooner before we would.
 

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Research shows that nitrite toxicity is species specific.

"There is a large body of information on nitrite’s toxicity to
fish, shrimp and other aquatic organisms. The 96-hour LC50s (50% death rate at 96hours. LC= lethal concentration) for nitrite-nitrogen typically range 10.00-30.00 mg/L for fresh-
water invertebrates and 0.25-100.00 mg/L for fish."

For Rainbow Trout, the 96hr LC50 is 0.24ppm-11ppm. Cutthroat trout are at 0.5ppm. For Largemouth Bass it is 140ppm. That a huge difference.

Nitrite toxicity decreases with salinity.
Cold water species are much more susceptible to nitrite toxicity.

"...aquaculturists want to avoid negative effects of nitrite on growth and increased susceptibility to
diseases that occur at much lower concentrations than the LC50

"Safe concentrations for continuous exposure of aquatic animals to nitrite and other common toxins often are estimated as 0.05 or 0.10 of the 96-hour LC50. Based on reported LC50s,
safe concentrations of nitrite-nitrogen in freshwater range 0.0125-0.5000 mg/L for coldwater fish and 0.5000-2.5000
mg/L for invertebrates and warmwater fish."

Claude E. Boyd, Ph.D.
Department of Fisheries
and Allied Aquacultures
Auburn University
 
So here's the thing. People who get into the hobby should not be expected to be chemists. Just like people who get dogs or cats are not all veterinarians. There's a learning curve to fish keeping that is much different but it's still along the same lines. My reason for pointing that out is folks want to succeed, they're willing to work on their tanks, they don't want to kill their fish, but not everyone is a chemist, understands chemistry or wants to be a chemist. There's no shame in that. There's absolutely no way the average person reading labels is going to know whether or not what's on that label is accurate. I've been using computers my whole adult life, almost 40 years, and there's no way I could tell anyone how they work. I couldn't replace motherboards or install a SSD or graphics card. I know I need them to do my work, I know which ones I need, understand how much RAM I need and I can use almost any program out there, but I couldn't tell you how or why they work. The same applies to aquarists. Most people are not scientists. We understand why we need water conditioner, why we have filters and cycle our tanks, bio loads, oxygen requirements, etc etc. Prime says use this to do that. Most people say it works. So guess what? I'm going to use this to do that because all I want is a tank that's healthy and alive. I started this hobby in 2015 and I just learned a couple weeks ago about the effects of pH on ammonia, NH3 vs NH4. Not because I'm a poor hobbyist, or a lazy one, because that's not the information out there for the average person. So long story short if we're to push for anything, it's better information in layman's terms, not just for newbies, for everyone. And for "experienced" aquarists to not be so quick to
So here's the thing. People who get into the hobby should not be expected to be chemists. Just like people who get dogs or cats are not all veterinarians. There's a learning curve to fish keeping that is much different but it's still along the same lines. My reason for pointing that out is folks want to succeed, they're willing to work on their tanks, they don't want to kill their fish, but not everyone is a chemist, understands chemistry or wants to be a chemist. There's no shame in that. There's absolutely no way the average person reading labels is going to know whether or not what's on that label is accurate. I've been using computers my whole adult life, almost 40 years, and there's no way I could tell anyone how they work. I couldn't replace motherboards or install a SSD or graphics card. I know I need them to do my work, I know which ones I need, understand how much RAM I need and I can use almost any program out there, but I couldn't tell you how or why they work. The same applies to aquarists. Most people are not scientists. We understand why we need water conditioner, why we have filters and cycle our tanks, bio loads, oxygen requirements, etc etc. Prime says use this to do that. Most people say it works. So guess what? I'm going to use this to do that because all I want is a tank that's healthy and alive. I started this hobby in 2015 and I just learned a couple weeks ago about the effects of pH on ammonia, NH3 vs NH4. Not because I'm a poor hobbyist, or a lazy one, because that's not the information out there for the average person. So long story short if we're to push for anything, it's better information in layman's terms, not just for newbies, for everyone. And for "experienced" aquarists to not be so quick to
Whoops hit reply.... so quick to assume. These conversations are extremely helpful for everyone because as everyone here has proven, the information out there could be better.
 
That would be great. I think it has to start with retailers as that is usually the way people enter the hobby. But it does not happen, so many people end up here because there is a problem, usually after doing what the store told (or didn't) them to do.

As for knowing how things work, well I prefer to know, so if anything goes wrong, I can address it knowingly for greatest effect. Some people have no desire to understand and only want to be told what to do. That's fine, but don't ask me to act dumb when someone asks a question. There are basic things a fishkeeper needs to know and I try to keep it at the level of the OP. Everyone on this thread seems interested, so I don't see the problem.

Also I think there is a difference about knowing how a computer works and how to keep a fish alive. I bring my computer to the shop for repair. Where should I bring my dead fish to get it fixed. It's incumbent on anyone caring for a living creature to step up and be responsible. That doesn't mean being a chemist.

"folks want to succeed, they're willing to work on their tanks, they don't want to kill their fish, but not everyone is a chemist, understands chemistry or wants to be a chemist. There's no shame in that."
I totally agree. I haven't seen people being shamed here for not understanding chemistry and suggest you alert moderaters when you notice it.
 
  • Thread Starter
  • #45
So here's the thing. People who get into the hobby should not be expected to be chemists. Just like people who get dogs or cats are not all veterinarians. There's a learning curve to fish keeping that is much different but it's still along the same lines. My reason for pointing that out is folks want to succeed, they're willing to work on their tanks, they don't want to kill their fish, but not everyone is a chemist, understands chemistry or wants to be a chemist. There's no shame in that. There's absolutely no way the average person reading labels is going to know whether or not what's on that label is accurate. I've been using computers my whole adult life, almost 40 years, and there's no way I could tell anyone how they work. I couldn't replace motherboards or install a SSD or graphics card. I know I need them to do my work, I know which ones I need, understand how much RAM I need and I can use almost any program out there, but I couldn't tell you how or why they work. The same applies to aquarists. Most people are not scientists. We understand why we need water conditioner, why we have filters and cycle our tanks, bio loads, oxygen requirements, etc etc. Prime says use this to do that. Most people say it works. So guess what? I'm going to use this to do that because all I want is a tank that's healthy and alive. I started this hobby in 2015 and I just learned a couple weeks ago about the effects of pH on ammonia, NH3 vs NH4. Not because I'm a poor hobbyist, or a lazy one, because that's not the information out there for the average person. So long story short if we're to push for anything, it's better information in layman's terms, not just for newbies, for everyone. And for "experienced" aquarists to not be so quick to

Whoops hit reply.... so quick to assume. These conversations are extremely helpful for everyone because as everyone here has proven, the information out there could be better.
I agree. Obviously not everyone has to be a chemist or else they're incompetent. That's like saying I should've been born knowing how to bake and because I don't, I'm a bad person. We all have learning curves to overcome whether it be with a hobby, learning how to spend the money you earn responsibly, avoiding debt, learning how to drive, or trying new foods. Goodness knows I've learned a lot within 11 years of fishkeeping. I'm sure my grandfather-in-law has learned even more in 30 years of fishkeeping.

What doesn't change is the fact that many folks are ignorant, and don't even think to research a pet before they get it. COVID puppies anyone?

I started out with a tiny loner female betta sitting on a pet store shelf and putting her in a 4 gallon shoebox bin. I had done 3 years of research in a hospital getting chemo before getting her. Now I know, most people's learning curves is realizing they should've took time to research the specific pet but I just can't see how it isn't obvious? Most people don't even ask a pet store associate (you should never take the advice to heart, but it's still more than what most folks do when getting pets like fish.) This isn't 1983; we all have cell phones, WiFi, and internet to discover whatever we want, whenever, wherever. It's so easy and takes only a few minutes' search "how to keep betta fish." My mother had to ride a city bus and go to a library to find stuff like this as a teen (of course, having 3 abusive parents didn't help either.)

Anyway, that's just my 2 cents. You don't have to be anyone (like a chemist or biologist) to keep a fish but you should take a few minutes to search up if that fish is even a good fit. It's cruel to when a baby oscar lives in a 10 gal and upgrade every time they gain an inch, but ultimately "retire" in only a 29 gal because "well, they can turn around!" Join a forum if you want! It won't even take 30 minutes out of your "busy" day.

(P.S. I should mention that I say 'you' socially. I'm not actually pointing you out specifically.)

FishDin yes, I agree. Read this ^
 
I agree. Obviously not everyone has to be a chemist or else they're incompetent. That's like saying I should've been born knowing how to bake and because I don't, I'm a bad person. We all have learning curves to overcome whether it be with a hobby, learning how to spend the money you earn responsibly, avoiding debt, learning how to drive, or trying new foods. Goodness knows I've learned a lot within 11 years of fishkeeping. I'm sure my grandfather-in-law has learned even more in 30 years of fishkeeping.

What doesn't change is the fact that many folks are ignorant, and don't even think to research a pet before they get it. COVID puppies anyone?

I started out with a tiny loner female betta sitting on a pet store shelf and putting her in a 4 gallon shoebox bin. I had done 3 years of research in a hospital getting chemo before getting her. Now I know, most people's learning curves is realizing they should've took time to research the specific pet but I just can't see how it isn't obvious? Most people don't even ask a pet store associate (you should never take the advice to heart, but it's still more than what most folks do when getting pets like fish.) This isn't 1983; we all have cell phones, WiFi, and internet to discover whatever we want, whenever, wherever. It's so easy and takes only a few minutes' search "how to keep betta fish." My mother had to ride a city bus and go to a library to find stuff like this as a teen (of course, having 3 abusive parents didn't help either.)

Anyway, that's just my 2 cents. You don't have to be anyone (like a chemist or biologist) to keep a fish but you should take a few minutes to search up if that fish is even a good fit. It's cruel to when a baby oscar lives in a 10 gal and upgrade every time they gain an inch, but ultimately "retire" in only a 29 gal because "well, they can turn around!". Join a forum if you want! It won't even take 30 minutes out of your "busy" day.

(P.S. I should mention that I say 'you' socially. I'm not actually pointing you out specifically.)

FishDin yes, I agree. Read this ^
100% agree with everything you said. I was handed a Betta still in a bag at a family dinner saying "you want this?" The person who gave him to me said just get a bowl, that's all you need, here's some pellets. Then I started reading. I'm not intending to slam anyone on here, the exact opposite. It's one thing to understand what we need to do, it's another to understand all the science behind it. We can do alot of good for the hobby by Baking on the other hand - I'm beyond hope. I once made an angel food cake that couldn't be cut with a chainsaw.
That would be great. I think it has to start with retailers as that is usually the way people enter the hobby. But it does not happen, so many people end up here because there is a problem, usually after doing what the store told (or didn't) them to do.

As for knowing how things work, well I prefer to know, so if anything goes wrong, I can address it knowingly for greatest effect. Some people have no desire to understand and only want to be told what to do. That's fine, but don't ask me to act dumb when someone asks a question. There are basic things a fishkeeper needs to know and I try to keep it at the level of the OP. Everyone on this thread seems interested, so I don't see the problem.

Also I think there is a difference about knowing how a computer works and how to keep a fish alive. I bring my computer to the shop for repair. Where should I bring my dead fish to get it fixed. It's incumbent on anyone caring for a living creature to step up and be responsible. That doesn't mean being a chemist.

"folks want to succeed, they're willing to work on their tanks, they don't want to kill their fish, but not everyone is a chemist, understands chemistry or wants to be a chemist. There's no shame in that."
I totally agree. I haven't seen people being shamed here for not understanding chemistry and suggest you alert moderaters when you notice it.
Absolutely agree. And my comments were absolutely aimed at retailers and the industry if I'm being honest. If you go back and read it should make sense. I didn't make it very clear I suppose. I do not advocate for people who just want press and play with live animals and I'm sorry if you felt I did. I would never suggest or advocate for that for anything, not just fish keeping. I do think if I'm buying a product that says it does ABC, is well reviewed and I need something for ABC I'm buying that product. I don't think that makes me gullible. Yes it's a very interesting thread and sadly yes sometimes folks can be a little condescending. However, my reference in my comment about some experienced aquarists not to assume is still all around the whole information issue. It's not an indication that someone has just not done their research or homework. Information is poorly given at every turn, especially pet stores, and that includes which products to use. I'm on this thread because of the OP. The last thing I expected to see was alllll of this..... just when I think I have it figured out! It's never ending that's for sure.
 
  • Thread Starter
  • #47
100% agree with everything you said. I was handed a Betta still in a bag at a family dinner saying "you want this?" The person who gave him to me said just get a bowl, that's all you need, here's some pellets. Then I started reading. I'm not intending to slam anyone on here, the exact opposite. It's one thing to understand what we need to do, it's another to understand all the science behind it. We can do alot of good for the hobby by Baking on the other hand - I'm beyond hope. I once made an angel food cake that couldn't be cut with a chainsaw.

Absolutely agree. And my comments were absolutely aimed at retailers and the industry if I'm being honest. If you go back and read it should make sense. I didn't make it very clear I suppose. I do not advocate for people who just want press and play with live animals and I'm sorry if you felt I did. I would never suggest or advocate for that for anything, not just fish keeping. I do think if I'm buying a product that says it does ABC, is well reviewed and I need something for ABC I'm buying that product. I don't think that makes me gullible. Yes it's a very interesting thread and sadly yes sometimes folks can be a little condescending. However, my reference in my comment about some experienced aquarists not to assume is still all around the whole information issue. It's not an indication that someone has just not done their research or homework. Information is poorly given at every turn, especially pet stores, and that includes which products to use. I'm on this thread because of the OP. The last thing I expected to see was alllll of this..... just when I think I have it figured out! It's never ending that's for sure.
There's no need to be apologetic. You did nothing wrong.

Yeah, sometimes this happens. I make a thread, people respond, then a whole other conversation happens within it. You never know what to expect on forums, even awesome ones like Fishlore :P
 

Random Great Topic!

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