Old Idea New Idea?

[ForceTen]

I have asked this question several times in threads with zero answers. So I created this thread. Maybe I get a response this way?

Many years ago, there was a HOB filter that used no motor. It used gravity to bring water into the filter housing and it directed clean/filtered water to a spillway just like power filters do. The design was the same just no motor. No power cord and no impeller to keep clean. These filters were very common in the late 60's and maybe the early 70's. To start it you had to hold your finger over the tube to hold water and insert it into the filter.
I have tried Googling it with no success. Its as if it never existed. Does anyone remember?
I want to use it for plants.

But I am confident someone here may remember this type of HOB filter. You would have to be at least 55 years old to remember.
I want to copy the design to build or buy something.

 

[juniperlea]

Did you see the thread today... whatever happened to....? Your post brought that to mind. Don't know if it's related or not.....

 

[Jonmott]

I’m 51 and I remember having an hob like this in the early 80s when I was a teen, I don’t remember anything other than it was like you said, no power chord and it worked by gravity somehow? I can’t believe I even kept my fish alive? I had no idea what I was doing back then! Poor fishies

 

[ForceTen]

I’m 51 and I remember having an hob like this in the early 80s when I was a teen, I don’t remember anything other than it was like you said, no power chord and it worked by gravity somehow? I can’t believe I even kept my fish alive? I had no idea what I was doing back then! Poor fishies

It actually worked pretty good.
It was all charcoal, filter padding and water.
I want one to grown plants in.

 

[Jonmott]

Not sure if this is it or not but if memory serves me correctly, it does look like this filter.

Another pic of one but smaller model

 

[Dennis57]

I do remember my parents having a few of them, do not remember the name though

 

[Jerome O'Neil]

Did it have an airstone in it? That was a pretty common way to move water way back in the day.

Otherwise, this kinda sounds like a perpetual motion machine. Something has to provide the energy to move water above grade.

 

[ProudPapa]

Otherwise, this kinda sounds like a perpetual motion machine. Something has to provide the energy to move water above grade.

I was thinking the same thing.

 

[Jonmott]

I can’t find much info on these filters but like the OP said, they didn’t rely on air pumps or anything! I know because I had the same filter and a separate air pump that I hooked up to a olde type scuba guy with the treasure opening and closing lol!! I only used the air pump on him, I specifically remember this because I didn’t even know or own any air splitters.
I bought it at my local Kmart in I would say 1980-81

 

[Corydork]

Did it have an airstone in it? That was a pretty common way to move water way back in the day.

Otherwise, this kinda sounds like a perpetual motion machine. Something has to provide the energy to move water above grade.

It probably used the same thing siphons do; gravity. I’d be interested in looking into the science behind these as well, as I see a lot of potential in them (I’d need to trademark the design first), or even potential as a DIY emergency filter, or something for extra flow into a tank. I’ll definitely be checking in on this thread and reporting anything I find.

 

[ForceTen]

I can’t find much info on these filters but like the OP said, they didn’t rely on air pumps or anything! I know because I had the same filter and a separate air pump that I hooked up to a olde type scuba guy with the treasure opening and closing lol!! I only used the air pump on him, I specifically remember this because I didn’t even know or own any air splitters.
I bought it at my local Kmart in I would say 1980-81

Thanks Jon. I have been doing my best to locate this thing and I see you located something.
I cannot get close enough in to see the directions though. So we still need more verification.
I have taken a little slack about this and my thinking.
I guess you could say I was schooled on physics even though the simple operation of siphon and gravity is the method.

It probably used the same thing siphons do; gravity. I’d be interested in looking into the science behind these as well, as I see a lot of potential in them (I’d need to trademark the design first), or even potential as a DIY emergency filter, or something for extra flow into a tank. I’ll definitely be checking in on this thread and reporting anything I find.

There is still some doubt about this until 1, we find a sample or 2, someone comes in with actual experience with this product like Jon and myself are. We used them.
The absence of Google results is telling though?

I have been prompted by mattgirl to design, build and patent something like this.
I have some flexible house and several old filters I can play with. Maybe I can recreate the idea?

 

[Sheryl]

Would be cool to put Pothos in!

I have asked this question several times in threads with zero answers. So I created this thread. Maybe I get a response this way?

Many years ago, there was a HOB filter that used no motor. It used gravity to bring water into the filter housing and it directed clean/filtered water to a spillway just like power filters do. The design was the same just no motor. No power cord and no impeller to keep clean. These filters were very common in the late 60's and maybe the early 70's. To start it you had to hold your finger over the tube to hold water and insert it into the filter.
I have tried Googling it with no success. Its as if it never existed. Does anyone remember?
I want to use it for plants.

But I am confident someone here may remember this type of HOB filter. You would have to be at least 55 years old to remember.
I want to copy the design to build or buy something.

I am almost 70 and my Mom had 2- 20 gallon tanks when I was a young teen. She had regular power filters as far as I remember. They would be cool for Pothos or sweet potato.

 

[Mr. Kgnao]

As common as it may be, a siphon is a complex and not fully understood phenomenon. That being said, whether it operates through pressure differentials or cohesion, a siphon requires the pull of gravity; the only way the hypothesized design could function, is if after the water flowed downward toward the center of the earth, some mass with a greater gravitational attractive force was created above the filter.

Here's a simple experiment that might make the flaw in this design more tangible. Take two glasses, fill one with water, find a level surface, place something like a reasonably sized book on that surface, place the empty glass on the original surface and the glass filled with water on the book, using a piece of airline tubing begin siphoning the water from the full glass into the empty. How does the height of the water in the glasses compare (measured from the surface for both) when the siphon stops functioning? If this is the case how does the water get out of the reservoir and back into the tank?

 

[Corydork]

As common as it may be, a siphon is a complex and not fully understood phenomenon. That being said, whether it operates through pressure differentials or cohesion, a siphon requires the pull of gravity; the only way the hypothesized design could function, is if after the water flowed downward toward the center of the earth, some mass with a greater gravitational attractive force was created above the filter.

Here's a simple experiment that might make the flaw in this design more tangible. Take two glasses, fill one with water, find a level surface, place something like a reasonably sized book on that surface, place the empty glass on the original surface and the glass filled with water on the book, using a piece of airline tubing begin siphoning the water from the full glass into the empty. How does the height of the water in the glasses compare (measured from the surface for both) when the siphon stops functioning? If this is the case how does the water get out of the reservoir and back into the tank?

Perhaps it uses a sort of bell-siphon, but in reverse? I’ve probably put a good 5 hours into trying to research this and have yet to come up with a whole lot of stuff. I’m in the middle of trying to make a diy version with pvc and plastic boxes but have yet to come up with anything good.
I’m just gonna keep adding any info or progress I make in this thread, as I see a lot of potential in something like this. Believe it or not, I’m not in this for money or anything of the like, but I’d love to see something like this for conventional use. I’d imagine it could have something to do with the suction the water creates when leaving the filter, like a siphon.

 

[Mr. Kgnao]

Perhaps it uses a sort of bell-siphon, but in reverse? I’ve probably put a good 5 hours into trying to research this and have yet to come up with a whole lot of stuff. I’m in the middle of trying to make a diy version with pvc and plastic boxes but have yet to come up with anything good.

You haven't, and you won't. The design is impossible, if it weren't, why would anyone use powered filters? A siphon can't carry water above the water level of the source.

 

[ProudPapa]

You haven't, and you won't. The design is impossible, if it weren't, why would anyone use powered filters? A siphon can't carry water above the water level of the source.

Exactly. It's like Jerome O'Neil said above. This conversation is about a perpetual motion machine.

 

[Corydork]

You haven't, and you won't. The design is impossible, if it weren't, why would anyone use powered filters? A siphon can't carry water above the water level of the source.

I’m pretty sure people in this thread said they had hob’s like this, so correct me if I’m wrong about that. I also spoke with my grandfather about this, and he said he remembers using these in his early years of keeping fish, and he said that they worked. Like you said, a siphon in a poorly understood phenomenon. There’s a good possibility there’s stuff that siphons can do that we haven’t realized yet. I’ve never been one to give up until I see 100% proof that it’s impossible. All we have is descriptions to try and mimic this as best we can.

 

[Jerome O'Neil]

It probably used the same thing siphons do; gravity. I’d be interested in looking into the science behind these as well, as I see a lot of potential in them (I’d need to trademark the design first), or even potential as a DIY emergency filter, or something for extra flow into a tank. I’ll definitely be checking in on this thread and reporting anything I find.

Gravity can get it out of the tank, but it couldn't put it back in. No system gets more energy out than goes in. That is just physics. Something has to move that water back.

 

[ProudPapa]

I’m pretty sure people in this thread said they had hob’s like this, so correct me if I’m wrong about that. I also spoke with my grandfather about this, and he said he remembers using these in his early years of keeping fish, and he said that they worked. Like you said, a siphon in a poorly understood phenomenon. There’s a good possibility there’s stuff that siphons can do that we haven’t realized yet. I’ve never been one to give up until I see 100% proof that it’s impossible. All we have is descriptions to try and mimic this as best we can.

They also said it was decades ago. Sometimes memories from that far back aren't perfect (don't ask me how I know).

 

[Corydork]

Gravity can get it out of the tank, but it couldn't put it back in. No system gets more energy out than goes in. That is just physics. Something has to move that water back.

I acknowledged that quite a while ago in AP Physics. I just figured out how it works and made a basic model with airline tubing. It’s not the same model, but I was correct when I thought starting it used a bell-siphon, and the output required suction. The model I made requires the output to be bellow the input, but it works. I’m going to start working on a pvc model now, but it could take a bit.

 

[Jerome O'Neil]

I acknowledged that quite a while ago in AP Physics. I just figured out how it works and made a basic model with airline tubing. It’s not the same model, but I was correct when I thought starting it used a bell-siphon, and the output required suction. The model I made requires the output to be bellow the input, but it works. I’m going to start working on a pvc model now, but it could take a bit.

If you get a model that can move water in a complete cycle using nothing other than gravity, post it up here. I would be very interested in your solution to moving water above the level of the tank, and I'll certainly be there when you collect your Nobel Prize.

 

[Corydork]

If you get a model that can move water in a complete cycle using nothing other than gravity, post it up here. I would be very interested in your solution to moving water above the level of the tank, and I'll certainly be there when you collect your Nobel Prize.

Funny!
I must not have elaborated enough.
It’s much simpler than a perpetual motion machine it’s simply a siphon. You put the energy into it for it to start, and it flows. What I’ve made is much simpler and a bit bulkier than that of the photos. I’ll do my best to photograph the airline tubing model. It doesn’t include the housing for filtration, but that’s not important for something like this yet.

 

[Jerome O'Neil]

Funny!
I must not have elaborated enough.
It’s much simpler than a perpetual motion machine it’s simply a siphon. You put the energy into it for it to start, and it flows. What I’ve made is much simpler and a bit bulkier than that of the photos. I’ll do my best to photograph the airline tubing model. It doesn’t include the housing for filtration, but that’s not important for something like this yet.

I still don't see how that will give you full water circulation. A siphon will pull water out of the tank, yes. Gravity fed filter systems have been around for a really long time. But you can't use that siphon to put the water back. Siphons work because the fluid source is higher than the fluid destination and some force (air pressure or gravity) on the original reservoir does the work. That has been the case since shortly after the Big Bang, and is pretty well understood.

The bit I can't get my head around is how you plan to get water out of the filter back into the tank. As soon as the water in the return tube reaches the level of the aquarium, that siphon isn't going to work any more. It would be like trying to push a rope.

Anyway, I am genuinely curious to see what you come up with, so do keep current here.

 

[Mr. Kgnao]

I’m pretty sure people in this thread said they had hob’s like this, so correct me if I’m wrong about that. I also spoke with my grandfather about this, and he said he remembers using these in his early years of keeping fish, and he said that they worked. Like you said, a siphon in a poorly understood phenomenon. There’s a good possibility there’s stuff that siphons can do that we haven’t realized yet. I’ve never been one to give up until I see 100% proof that it’s impossible. All we have is descriptions to try and mimic this as best we can.

If I remember correctly there was a monster living under my bed for the longest time, as I had a bunk bed I found this particularly troubling. Memory is a funny thing, it's fading and entirely subjective. As homework I suggest you watch Rashomon, mostly because it's a great movie, but also because it's a contemplation on the utterly human nature of memory, I think, or was that Seven Samurai... Kagemusha?

The energy you initially add to the system can only move so much water (Newton's Second and Third Laws of Motion), you'd have to suck pretty darn hard on the end of that hose to make a filter worth using. (Please note that I've refrained here from making any of the obvious, puerile, AV related jokes and allusions, I'm so mature.)

 

[Corydork]

I’m sure you noticed by now that my inspiration was the peculiar HOB, but keep in mind that I’m 16 and I’m no engineer. This is my airline tubing model of input and output, using the same system as a siphon. I decided to use two outputs as one input and one output was harder to start. I put a hole in the top and used an eye dropper to fill it. There is a small flow noticeable by the input and a very slight flow seen when I held a leaf taken off of my java fern in front of the output, so I’m curious as to how much flow a larger one makes. I could see a slightly larger version functioning as a betta filter; nothing great, but definitely profitable or useful for betta-centered hobbyists, since every “betta filter” I’ve tried has a flow too high for my 2 bettas.

 

[MedicMike]

interesting... following

 

[Corydork]

If I remember correctly there was a monster living under my bed for the longest time, as I had a bunk bed I found this particularly troubling. Memory is a funny thing, it's fading and entirely subjective. As homework I suggest you watch Rashomon, mostly because it's a great movie, but also because it's a contemplation on the utterly human nature of memory, I think, or was that Seven Samurai... Kagemusha?

The energy you initially add to the system can only move so much water (Newton's Second and Third Laws of Motion), you'd have to suck pretty darn hard on the end of that hose to make a filter worth using. (Please note that I've refrained here from making any of the obvious, puerile, AV related jokes and allusions, I'm so mature.)

The moderators are probably glad you didn’t make the joke, but it was funny.
I only have a bell siphon big enough for pvc, which is what I need to get the thing started on a larger scale. I just used one of these things to start it (the name escapes me)

 

[ProudPapa]

If you get a model that can move water in a complete cycle using nothing other than gravity, post it up here. I would be very interested in your solution to moving water above the level of the tank, and I'll certainly be there when you collect your Nobel Prize.

Forget the Nobel Prize. I want to help cash the checks.

 

[ForceTen]

You haven't, and you won't. The design is impossible, if it weren't, why would anyone use powered filters? A siphon can't carry water above the water level of the source.

We use power filters for more GPM. And they are far more practical.
Like you the design was something I had to figure out.
I know I had one like it. And it seems others have too. I cannot understand how myself and others would say this?

 

[Corydork]

We use power filters for more GPM. And they are far more practical.
Like you the design was something I had to figure out.
I know I had one like it. And it seems others have too. I cannot understand how myself and others would say this?

You can believe other people’s memories when they’ve never been in one place to conspire a theory or lie, which is what keep me going on trying to find something similar.
I turned the airline version into a protein skimmer, and it’s flow is barely strong enough to do that, so I can see why we have power filters. I know what I have is nowhere near the original, so I’m hoping someone that remembers it can either spare more details of it or can come up with a better one.

School is keeping me pretty busy right now, so I hope to have the pvc model prepared for use by the weekend.

 

[Jonmott]

Force, if you zoom in on the pic it says it filters up to 40 gph, it doesn’t say anything about a pump or air pump on the filter.
as you can see it’s completely see through, it doesn’t show any kind of air pump or anything on the box. I can’t find much info on it but it’s called a long life quick change filter. I wish I could see the back of the box or an instruction pamphlet. That would tell us for sure.

 

[Corydork]

Force, if you zoom in on the pic it says it filters up to 40 gph, it doesn’t say anything about a pump or air pump on the filter.
as you can see it’s completely see through, it doesn’t show any kind of air pump or anything on the box. I can’t find much info on it but it’s called a long life quick change filter. I wish I could see the back of the box or an instruction pamphlet. That would tell us for sure.

I found a person selling one online and emailed him and have yet to get a response. We‘ll see.

 

[Jonmott]

I found a person selling one online and emailed him and have yet to get a response. We‘ll see.

Very cool! Hopefully we will find out if this is it or not.

 

[Mr. Kgnao]

We use power filters for more GPM. And they are far more practical.
Like you the design was something I had to figure out.
I know I had one like it. And it seems others have too. I cannot understand how myself and others would say this?

If the design were possible, then increasing the diameter of the tubing would increase flow. In fact if water could 'fall' up and down simultaneously, as the design implies, we could coil an infinite amount of tubing around itself and increase the flow to infinity.

 

[Corydork]

If the design were possible, then increasing the diameter of the tubing would increase flow. In fact if water could 'fall' up and down simultaneously, as the design implies, we could coil an infinite amount of tubing around itself and increase the flow to infinity.

Even if it was possible, an infinite loop of water would eventually reach equilibrium. The filter they’re talking about would have to require some energy to start it. You definitely get less energy out than put in, just as any working device. However, I would like to get my hands on the filter they’re talking about; I find it futile to talk about something that doesn’t seem like it’d work on paper.

 

[MedicMike]

View attachment 657730
I’m sure you noticed by now that my inspiration was the peculiar HOB, but keep in mind that I’m 16 and I’m no engineer. This is my airline tubing model of input and output, using the same system as a siphon. I decided to use two outputs as one input and one output was harder to start. I put a hole in the top and used an eye dropper to fill it. There is a small flow noticeable by the input and a very slight flow seen when I held a leaf taken off of my java fern in front of the output, so I’m curious as to how much flow a larger one makes. I could see a slightly larger version functioning as a betta filter; nothing great, but definitely profitable or useful for betta-centered hobbyists, since every “betta filter” I’ve tried has a flow too high for my 2 bettas.

I've had an open hose like that in my tank before and it is a funny surprise then it starts leaking on your floor. Eek!

 

[Littlebudda]

As far as I’m aware the is still know proven perpetual motion machines in existence. Free energy is impossible

 

[ForceTen]

Force, if you zoom in on the pic it says it filters up to 40 gph, it doesn’t say anything about a pump or air pump on the filter.
as you can see it’s completely see through, it doesn’t show any kind of air pump or anything on the box. I can’t find much info on it but it’s called a long life quick change filter. I wish I could see the back of the box or an instruction pamphlet. That would tell us for sure.

Jon. I thought I saw an air stone in one picture? I have also looked with little success.
I am still looking and plan to visit my LFS that is owned and operated in my town for many many years. The owner runs it and is easily my age. I hope he can shed some light on this.

Even if it was possible, an infinite loop of water would eventually reach equilibrium. The filter they’re talking about would have to require some energy to start it. You definitely get less energy out than put in, just as any working device. However, I would like to get my hands on the filter they’re talking about; I find it futile to talk about something that doesn’t seem like it’d work on paper.

My memory was that you filled up the tube, help your finger over the tube (to retain the water) and carefully insert it into its slot. It then drew up the water and the spillway (spilled) and it ran until either the tank level or the filter box level was outside the parameters for operation.
The filter had to be full of water and the tank as well. As I remember. Clearly for me, it was 50 years ago. Then came the advent of the power filter.

As far as I’m aware the is still know proven perpetual motion machines in existence. Free energy is impossible

This is something everyone should know. Its a very simple science.
But I and some others old enough to remember used this type of filter.

And lastly, why would I and any others subject themselves to scrutinty if it was not true? Why make up something like this? Why make up a story?

 

[ProudPapa]

This is something everyone should know. Its a very simple science.
But I and some others old enough to remember used this type of filter.

And lastly, why would I and any others subject themselves to scrutinty if it was not true? Why make up something like this? Why make up a story?

Please don't take this as a personal attack, but those seem to be contradictory statements. You agree that a perpetual motion machine is impossible, but that term certainly seems to describe the filter you remember. What am I failing to understand?

 

[Jerome O'Neil]

And lastly, why would I and any others subject themselves to scrutinty if it was not true? Why make up something like this? Why make up a story?

When I was about 5 years old, we had this massive cherry tree in our yard. I used to climb up in it and eat cherries all day. One day, I slipped and fell out. I landed on my back and it knocked the wind out of me. I swear I must have fell 15 feet.

This summer I was fishing in that area, and decided to drive by the old house. That tree wasn't nearly as big as it was in the day. I could reach up and pull fruit from the branch I fell from, meaning it was even smaller that I remember it when I was actually in it.

No one doubts your sincerity or thinks you're making stuff up. It is simply that as described, that type of water motion can't exist, which means it has to be something else. Memories are funny. They are terribly unreliable. The farther we get from the events, the more they change.

 

[ForceTen]

Please don't take this as a personal attack, but those seem to be contradictory statements. You agree that a perpetual motion machine is impossible, but that term certainly seems to describe the filter you remember. What am I failing to understand?

All good friend.
In theory you are absolutely correct. And I concur. But what were we using, that we remember so well?
How would I remember that I had to hold my finger over the tube to start it?
I also remember packing the filter housing with fluff and carbon.
I am a fact oriented person. An electrical contractor and master. Capable. So I get it. But the question is still not answered. **** were we using, that we can remember?

No one doubts your sincerity or thinks you're making stuff up. It is simply that as described, that type of water motion can't exist, which means it has to be something else. Memories are funny. They are terribly unreliable. The farther we get from the events, the more they change.

Thanks Jerome. Of course memories can be vague. But I remember enough to not let this go.
The system/design is the question I want to answer.