Newbie Help

Memmakim

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Hi All! My boyfriend and I recently got into the freshwater hobby, and have lost two fish already (guppy and ram) a month in. We went to a well reviewed mom and pop aquarium center, where they got us all set up. We're super bummed because we thought we did everything right, but still lost 2 out of the 6 we purchased. So, we're just looking for advice on how to move forward.

For context....
1) We did a fishless cycle-dechlorinated it, ran bacteria for 7 days, kept water at 75-80 degrees, and ran the filter-18 gallon tank.
2) Introduced 3 guppies, and 3 rams (let them acclimate correctly too)
3) Introduced skimmer to the tank
4) Guppy dies two days later
5) We turned the skimmer off because we thought maybe it had to do with death?
6) About a week ago we noticed the rams were seemingly less active, but ok and eating
7) Notice water is low (needed to get correct fitting lid), and refilled water less than 3 gallons after dechlorinating/bacteria it first
8) Water consistently 80 degrees now
9) Ram dies

We feed them once a day, and see that food tends to settle on the gravel. Should we feed more or less?
The guppies seem totally fine. Should we be doing something different? Is there a step we should introduce, or something we should be doing daily, weekly etc? Looking for any and all advice, on how to maintain a tank especially since we want to replace the two we lost.

Thanks so much in advance, excited to be a part of this community!
 

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Depends on who you ask :).

Just a few remarks:

1.
Wait at least a month before introducing any fish. Some people work with chemicals and test kits in the first month; I work with dead tree leaves and real plants only; regardless of what you choose, have patience. At least a month. Maybe two weeks longer if everything is new.

You don't need to turn on the lights. Just run a heater and whatever water pump/filter you have. Your initial conditions should be fairly similar with the ones you intend for your fish. I feel many beginners don't do this, but rather speed up things because they are in a hurry. They increase temperatures because they think this will cycle faster; but when they (think) they are ready, they change conditions for the fish, unwary of the fact that this affects the microbiology in your tank also.

2.
Community / multi fish species tanks are popular, especially with beginners. Yet, I consider multi-species for the advanced. Rams prefer very warm and soft water. Guppies prefer harder water. And having another species might pose stress, along with stress from a bright aquarium light, stress from humans changing decor the first month, major stress from the travel.

I would start with one species, not use aquarium light the first few days, and just leave your fish alone. Even feeding the first few days is unnecessary.

3.
Get quality, high protein food and feed very little. Feel free to skip a day. I bet the best food is already available inside your tank when you introduce fish. Super tiny copepods will very likely be present in a tank after a month with no fish in it.

The rest I leave to all the chemists on this forum ;)

Cheers!
 

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German Rams really need to be kept in well aged tanks, not new set ups. They are very sensitive to unstable water parameters.

It's a good idea to start with more durable fish until you get a little more experience.

It looks like you are off to a good start. Don't be discouraged with the initial fish losses.

Stick with the forum. You're bound to get better advise here than at the fish store.
 
I noted a few things from your post,

1, It takes 4-6 weeks for the nitrogen cycle to complete.
2. Skimmers are highly recommended for saltwater tanks, but they are not very effective in freshwater as the density of freshwater is too low.
3. Guppies raised in fish farms are often in poor health. Losing one in a new tank is not unusual. Also guppies may have internal parasites/worms. It is often recommended to use a deworming product such as PraziPro when introducing new fish.
4, In the winter, humidity levels are often low. Water evaporates quickly from aquariums when humidity is low. If possible, it is preferable to use water purified by reverse osmosis or distillation to replace water lost to evaporation. If that is not available, you can use tap water, but water hardness will increase over time. You counter this by doing partial water changes. Some people like changing 50% of the water weekly. If a tank is heavily planted, smaller, less frequent water changes might suffice.
5, Blue rams are often called German blue rams, but they are a cichlid native to northern South America. As such, they like soft, slightly acidic water. They also need higher temperatures than many tropical fish, so your 80F should be suitable. In contrast guppies come from Central America and Mexico. They like hard, alkaline water. You did not note the water parameters ( hardness, alkalinity, and pH), but since the rams and guppies like different water parameters, keeping them together is not ideal. You might be able to find a compromise that will allow you to keep both.
6. I suggest you get a freshwater test kit that will allow you to test pH, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. The API test kit is often recommended:

https://www.amazon.com/API-FRESHWATER-800-Test-Freshwater-Aquarium/dp/B000255NCI/

7. Some people use test strips. While convenient, the test strips are not as accurate as the drops.

7. Unfortunately, the test kit noted above does not contain tests for hardness and alkalinity. You have to purchase a separate test kit:

https://www.amazon.com/API-TEST-Freshwater-Aquarium-Water/dp/B003SNCHMA/
 
As said, a fishless cycle takes weeks. You didn't mention what your ammonia source was during cycling. It sounds like all you did was to dump some bottled bacteria in and let it run for a week.

What are your water tests now for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate? What is your water change schedule and how much are changing each time?

Sounds like the fish store didn't teach you what you need to know to succeed, so don't blame yourself. Stay here and ask questions. Don't assume fish store advice is correct. It often is not. They sold you delicate fish (Rams) for a new tank and mixed them with fish that have conflicting needs...
 
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  • #6
As said, a fishless cycle takes weeks. You didn't mention what your ammonia source was during cycling. It sounds like all you did was to dump some bottled bacteria in and let it run for a week.

What are your water tests now for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate? What is your water change schedule and how much are changing each time?

Sounds like the fish store didn't teach you what you need to know to succeed, so don't blame yourself. Stay here and ask questions. Don't assume fish store advice is correct. It often is not. They sold you delicate fish (Rams) for a new tank and mixed them with fish that have conflicting needs...
I had no idea I had to test the water etc. And I also had no idea that we had to change the water as well; what does that look like?

I noted a few things from your post,

1, It takes 4-6 weeks for the nitrogen cycle to complete.
2. Skimmers are highly recommended for saltwater tanks, but they are not very effective in freshwater as the density of freshwater is too low.
3. Guppies raised in fish farms are often in poor health. Losing one in a new tank is not unusual. Also guppies may have internal parasites/worms. It is often recommended to use a deworming product such as PraziPro when introducing new fish.
4, In the winter, humidity levels are often low. Water evaporates quickly from aquariums when humidity is low. If possible, it is preferable to use water purified by reverse osmosis or distillation to replace water lost to evaporation. If that is not available, you can use tap water, but water hardness will increase over time. You counter this by doing partial water changes. Some people like changing 50% of the water weekly. If a tank is heavily planted, smaller, less frequent water changes might suffice.
5, Blue rams are often called German blue rams, but they are a cichlid native to northern South America. As such, they like soft, slightly acidic water. They also need higher temperatures than many tropical fish, so your 80F should be suitable. In contrast guppies come from Central America and Mexico. They like hard, alkaline water. You did not note the water parameters ( hardness, alkalinity, and pH), but since the rams and guppies like different water parameters, keeping them together is not ideal. You might be able to find a compromise that will allow you to keep both.
6. I suggest you get a freshwater test kit that will allow you to test pH, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. The API test kit is often recommended:

https://www.amazon.com/API-FRESHWATER-800-Test-Freshwater-Aquarium/dp/B000255NCI/

7. Some people use test strips. While convenient, the test strips are not as accurate as the drops.

7. Unfortunately, the test kit noted above does not contain tests for hardness and alkalinity. You have to purchase a separate test kit:

Amazon.com
Should I keep the skimmer since mine is a freshwater? And thank you for the link for the test strips, I will 100% be buying them! It sounds like I should just stick to guppies for the time being. Would it be safe to place new guppies in the tank to replace the fish that dies? If so, what would that process look like?

Depends on who you ask :).

Just a few remarks:

1.
Wait at least a month before introducing any fish. Some people work with chemicals and test kits in the first month; I work with dead tree leaves and real plants only; regardless of what you choose, have patience. At least a month. Maybe two weeks longer if everything is new.

You don't need to turn on the lights. Just run a heater and whatever water pump/filter you have. Your initial conditions should be fairly similar with the ones you intend for your fish. I feel many beginners don't do this, but rather speed up things because they are in a hurry. They increase temperatures because they think this will cycle faster; but when they (think) they are ready, they change conditions for the fish, unwary of the fact that this affects the microbiology in your tank also.

2.
Community / multi fish species tanks are popular, especially with beginners. Yet, I consider multi-species for the advanced. Rams prefer very warm and soft water. Guppies prefer harder water. And having another species might pose stress, along with stress from a bright aquarium light, stress from humans changing decor the first month, major stress from the travel.

I would start with one species, not use aquarium light the first few days, and just leave your fish alone. Even feeding the first few days is unnecessary.

3.
Get quality, high protein food and feed very little. Feel free to skip a day. I bet the best food is already available inside your tank when you introduce fish. Super tiny copepods will very likely be present in a tank after a month with no fish in it.

The rest I leave to all the chemists on this forum ;)

Cheers!
Thank you so much! I am definitely going to to stick to just guppies for a bit then! Is there a specific food/brand you suggest for guppies? Thank you!
 

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Dont buy test strips, buy Api or Salifert liquid test kits. If you already have test strips, they are ok for a quick check up, but in times like this, you really need a reliable test at least once a week for a year. Then if things are well, liquid tests every other week. strips every other week.
You should find out your PH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, gh, everything, before getting more fish.
dont feel too bad about a fish loss. Its sad everytime but it happens. I have been keeping fish for 25 years, my water is hard and everthing else the way guppies prefer, but last time I got guppies, they died within the first month. Unfortunatly many live bearing fish have been inbread for multiple generations. My LFS employees even tried to tell me not to buy them.

I would not trust your LFS employee for resons alteady mentioned! Ask us, any time, anything!

To do water changes;
Get a gravel vacuum. and sift gently through the substrate to remove 25-50 % of the water a week. Replace with water that is the same temperature as the remaining water, and add dechlorinator to the new water so that clorine does not kill healthy bacteria. I dont think that your tank is cycled, and you will need a different water change plan untill it is but others here are better at explaining about tank cycling.

You can use a manual gravel vacuum, with a pump for easier starting. like the Laifoo, and buckets. Or you can use a sink attach vaccum, Like a python. for quick filling and removing water out the door without buckets. "Best for larger tanks, 30 gallons and up" My water pressure is too low for my sink attach vac so I only use it to fill the tank. There are many ways to start the syphon, but I get so frustrated, I currently just use both types the Laifoo manual to remove water,{it has a safety grid so you dont accidently suck up a fish, plus it is long enough to dump the water out the door. I hate buckets!} and a Hygger sink attach vacuum to fill. "you need to be vary carefull to watch the temperater with those things, and never forget to add dechlorinator! remind yourself everytime to be carefull!
You can look up youtube videos on gravel vacuuming if you need to.
 
First off, I would avoid that fish store or at least ignore anything they tell you. Sounds like they set you up to fail. They may be nice people, but they should not be used as a source of advice IMO.

Fish create waste. It manifests as poop as well as ammonia via their gills. The poop will decompose and release more ammonia. This is not a problem in a natural system like a lake or river, but in a closed system like an aquarium we have to monitor the accumulation of the waste and remove it before it reaches toxic levels. In a "cycled" aquarium there are bacteria that consume the ammonia in the water, which protects the fish from it's toxic effects. However, after these bacteria metabolize the ammonia they leave nitrite behind, which is also very toxic. Other bacteria then consume the nitrite with the end product being nitrate, which is much, much less toxic. There are no bacteria in our aquariums to consume the nitrate, so we must remove it ourselves. This is done with water changes.

Cycling a tank involves the establishment of the various bacteria mentioned. The bacteria in a bottle products are an attempt to instantly cycle an aquarium. Sometimes they work. Many times they do not. Some brands seem better than others. They are entirely unnecessary. The bacteria we want in our aquariums are in the environment and if you set up an aquarium they will populate it; "If you build it, they will come." They only need a source of ammonia to get started. If you cycle a tank using fish, they are the source of ammonia to feed the bacteria and get the cycle started. The problem with using fish to cycle is that they have to swim in their unprocessed waste, while the cycling gets established. This can be harmful to the fish. It's best left to experienced fish keepers that know how to keep the fish safe in that situation. With a fishless cycle, we provide the ammonia instead of the fish. There are various ways to do that, but because you are now doing a fish-in cycle I will forego the fishless cycle details.

When cycling a tank, especially with fish you need to be able to test the water for pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. You should also know the KH (carbonate hardness) and GH (general hardness) so you know the character of your water so you can choose fish that are appropriate for the water you have. As was mentioned by others, fish can come from places with vastly different water parameters. For some fish, this matters a lot, while many other fish are quite adaptable to various water parameters.

When testing a cycled aquarium the ammonia and nitrite will be -0- because the bacteria are doing their job. There will, however, be nitrates; also because the bacteria are working, but because there are no bacteria to consume them, the nitrates accumulate. We use the level of nitrates as an indicator of when a water change is needed. Because they are not as toxic as their precursors, we don't need to keep them at -0-. There are different opinions on how high is ok. My opinion is that nitrates are zero in a natural body of water that's not polluted, so I strive to keep them low. A common amount that many try to stay below is 20ppm (part per million). I keep my tanks at 10ppm or less.

Weekly water changes is a good place to start. Many of us never stray from that frequency, but every aquarium will be different and once your tank is well establish you can decide to tweak that schedule if it's appropriate.

Water changes do more than remove nitrate, but nitrate concentration is the indicator we use. Water changes also remove other things as well as add back minerals that have been depleted.

So I suggest you start by doing a 50% water change ASAP. Use water that you have dechlorinated and it should be at or close to the same temperature of the tank water. A couple degress F either way is ok.

Next, you need a way to test the water for ammonia, nitrite and pH at a minimum. Test strips are not great and often don't test for ammonia. They are quick and easy if used and stored correctly. Liquid test kits are best. The most common is probably the API Master test kit which tests for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate as well pH. When you're able to test you want to test for everything mentioned. Report your results here. A cycled tank will have zero ammonia and nitrite, but you may see some if your tank isn't fully cycled yet. That's ok, but keep them below 0.5ppm with water changes. So, for example, If you test 1.0ppm of ammomia, doing a 50% water change will reduce them to 0.5ppm, so a 75% water change would be better. You are doing this to keep your fish safe. If you were doing a fishless cycle you wouldn't need to do a water change at these levels.

The bacteria we are discussing adhere to solid surfaces, so changing water does not hurt them. The sponges and other media in the filter are a major location for them, so proper filter maintence is important. To clean the filter media, a rinse in the tank water your removing (water change) or in dechlorinated tap water. It's best not to clean filters or the tank when cycling. If you use a filter with disposable filter cartridges, evry time you throw out a used one you are throwing out a bunch of bacteria that you worked so hard to establish. Many of this style of filter can be retrofited to work better, but let's not worry about that now.

So do a water change now. Buy a test kit. Test and post results here. Also test your tap water for ammonia after it has been dechlorinated. pH , KH and GH of your tap water would be helpful to know as well. If you have to wait several days for a test kit you can do more water changes while waiting.
 
Wow. So much is wrong with advice you were given at store. It’s almost like they were setting you up to fail which is a common MO amongst predatory outfits to get customers to come back and replace fish that died.

Rams are not beginners fish, difficulty level 8/10. The simple fact that you had no idea you have to constantly run tests and monitor ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels on a new tank setup as well as do water changes in tank tells me that this outfit was setting you up to fail.

On water change question….

For 18g tank, we’ll call it 16g of actual water volume in tank once you displace 2g water for substrate/ornaments in tank. For a 20% water change (4g) you will need to go hardware store and buy 2 standard 5g white buckets. One to siphon 4-4.5g water off into, one to prep change water to put back into tank.

Plus some 3/8” hose to siphon water off from tank. If you want a premade solution, this kit is pretty nice. I own it and use it.

https://a.co/d/iPWHLs1

Now prep of change water…

That 4+ gallons of water should be run out night before into a bucket, allowed to set there overnight to equalize, stirring a couple times and come up to room temp. Next day it will be ready to exchange in tank. I also always add a couple catappa leaves night before to add humic/fulvic (tannins) to change water. Then 15min before actual water change is when you add dechlorinators.

Sorry to say but this store left you woefully unprepared of the cycling bomb/deaths that were headed your way.
 
  • Thread Starter
  • #10
Wow. So much is wrong with advice you were given at store. It’s almost like they were setting you up to fail which is a common MO amongst predatory outfits to get customers to come back and replace fish that died.

Rams are not beginners fish, difficulty level 8/10. The simple fact that you had no idea you have to constantly run tests and monitor ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels on a new tank setup as well as do water changes in tank tells me that this outfit was setting you up to fail.

On water change question….

For 18g tank, we’ll call it 16g of actual water volume in tank once you displace 2g water for substrate/ornaments in tank. For a 20% water change (4g) you will need to go hardware store and buy 2 standard 5g white buckets. One to siphon 4-4.5g water off into, one to prep change water to put back into tank.

Plus some 3/8” hose to siphon water off from tank. If you want a premade solution, this kit is pretty nice. I own it and use it.

https://a.co/d/iPWHLs1

Now prep of change water…

That 4+ gallons of water should be run out night before into a bucket, allowed to set there overnight to equalize, stirring a couple times and come up to room temp. Next day it will be ready to exchange in tank. I also always add a couple catappa leaves night before to add humic/fulvic (tannins) to change water. Then 15min before actual water change is when you add dechlorinators.

Sorry to say but this store left you woefully unprepared of the cycling bomb/deaths that were headed your way.
Super helpful thank you!!!!

First off, I would avoid that fish store or at least ignore anything they tell you. Sounds like they set you up to fail. They may be nice people, but they should not be used as a source of advice IMO.

Fish create waste. It manifests as poop as well as ammonia via their gills. The poop will decompose and release more ammonia. This is not a problem in a natural system like a lake or river, but in a closed system like an aquarium we have to monitor the accumulation of the waste and remove it before it reaches toxic levels. In a "cycled" aquarium there are bacteria that consume the ammonia in the water, which protects the fish from it's toxic effects. However, after these bacteria metabolize the ammonia they leave nitrite behind, which is also very toxic. Other bacteria then consume the nitrite with the end product being nitrate, which is much, much less toxic. There are no bacteria in our aquariums to consume the nitrate, so we must remove it ourselves. This is done with water changes.

Cycling a tank involves the establishment of the various bacteria mentioned. The bacteria in a bottle products are an attempt to instantly cycle an aquarium. Sometimes they work. Many times they do not. Some brands seem better than others. They are entirely unnecessary. The bacteria we want in our aquariums are in the environment and if you set up an aquarium they will populate it; "If you build it, they will come." They only need a source of ammonia to get started. If you cycle a tank using fish, they are the source of ammonia to feed the bacteria and get the cycle started. The problem with using fish to cycle is that they have to swim in their unprocessed waste, while the cycling gets established. This can be harmful to the fish. It's best left to experienced fish keepers that know how to keep the fish safe in that situation. With a fishless cycle, we provide the ammonia instead of the fish. There are various ways to do that, but because you are now doing a fish-in cycle I will forego the fishless cycle details.

When cycling a tank, especially with fish you need to be able to test the water for pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. You should also know the KH (carbonate hardness) and GH (general hardness) so you know the character of your water so you can choose fish that are appropriate for the water you have. As was mentioned by others, fish can come from places with vastly different water parameters. For some fish, this matters a lot, while many other fish are quite adaptable to various water parameters.

When testing a cycled aquarium the ammonia and nitrite will be -0- because the bacteria are doing their job. There will, however, be nitrates; also because the bacteria are working, but because there are no bacteria to consume them, the nitrates accumulate. We use the level of nitrates as an indicator of when a water change is needed. Because they are not as toxic as their precursors, we don't need to keep them at -0-. There are different opinions on how high is ok. My opinion is that nitrates are zero in a natural body of water that's not polluted, so I strive to keep them low. A common amount that many try to stay below is 20ppm (part per million). I keep my tanks at 10ppm or less.

Weekly water changes is a good place to start. Many of us never stray from that frequency, but every aquarium will be different and once your tank is well establish you can decide to tweak that schedule if it's appropriate.

Water changes do more than remove nitrate, but nitrate concentration is the indicator we use. Water changes also remove other things as well as add back minerals that have been depleted.

So I suggest you start by doing a 50% water change ASAP. Use water that you have dechlorinated and it should be at or close to the same temperature of the tank water. A couple degress F either way is ok.

Next, you need a way to test the water for ammonia, nitrite and pH at a minimum. Test strips are not great and often don't test for ammonia. They are quick and easy if used and stored correctly. Liquid test kits are best. The most common is probably the API Master test kit which tests for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate as well pH. When you're able to test you want to test for everything mentioned. Report your results here. A cycled tank will have zero ammonia and nitrite, but you may see some if your tank isn't fully cycled yet. That's ok, but keep them below 0.5ppm with water changes. So, for example, If you test 1.0ppm of ammomia, doing a 50% water change will reduce them to 0.5ppm, so a 75% water change would be better. You are doing this to keep your fish safe. If you were doing a fishless cycle you wouldn't need to do a water change at these levels.

The bacteria we are discussing adhere to solid surfaces, so changing water does not hurt them. The sponges and other media in the filter are a major location for them, so proper filter maintence is important. To clean the filter media, a rinse in the tank water your removing (water change) or in dechlorinated tap water. It's best not to clean filters or the tank when cycling. If you use a filter with disposable filter cartridges, evry time you throw out a used one you are throwing out a bunch of bacteria that you worked so hard to establish. Many of this style of filter can be retrofited to work better, but let's not worry about that now.

So do a water change now. Buy a test kit. Test and post results here. Also test your tap water for ammonia after it has been dechlorinated. pH , KH and GH of your tap water would be helpful to know as well. If you have to wait several days for a test kit you can do more water changes while waiting.
OK-thank you for ALL OF THIS! I did a 50% water change while I waited for the API master kit, and it showed up in the mail literally an hour later-KISMET. I also vacuumed the gravel, and got all of the waste up. The remaining fish seemed a lot more active, and were eager to eat. I did a test about an hour after the water change and got the below results...

PH-7.6
High PH- 7.4
Ammonia-1.0ppm
Nitrite-0ppm
Nitrate-0ppm

Next move? Again, I can not thank you enough!
 
I start aquariums by putting in a lot of plants and waiting two months. In your case, I'd get a lot of plants and do water changes as needed till your tank is cycled, depending on water test results, and then do water changes weekly.

Figure out which fish can live in your water and go with those fish, or get an RO filter so you can mix filter water and tap water to get the water your fish need.

I wasted a lot of time and killed too many fish by having fish that didn't fit my water. Things are much better know that I have an RO filter.
 
Super helpful thank you!!!!


OK-thank you for ALL OF THIS! I did a 50% water change while I waited for the API master kit, and it showed up in the mail literally an hour later-KISMET. I also vacuumed the gravel, and got all of the waste up. The remaining fish seemed a lot more active, and were eager to eat. I did a test about an hour after the water change and got the below results...

PH-7.6
High PH- 7.4
Ammonia-1.0ppm
Nitrite-0ppm
Nitrate-0ppm

Next move? Again, I can not thank you enough!
The test results show that the tank isn’t cycled because there is no nitrate.

So you are cycling with fish in, which is no problem but will take time.
 
Next move?

I’d start with GH/KH test kit so you can get a grasp on how hard your tap water is as well as the in tank current parameters. This will help you pick fish for future additions to tank that will thrive in the water. But that’s 2-3mo down the road, you’ve got to get it cycled first. No new fish for now.

Amazon.com : API GH & KH TEST KIT Freshwater Aquarium Water Test Kit, 2.5 oz. : Aquarium Test Kits : Pet Supplies

Also some advice on properly doing the nitrate test. Post #2 has instructions.

 
Well done for reaching out for help.

I see that you have lots of good advice already.

For me, success has come from simplifying matters and dealing with the essentials like the goals for keeping the aquarium, suitable fish and plants, dealing with ammonia, food quality and amount (less than you think), aeration/oxygen, the need for small water changes and correct water temperature.

I don't want to add too much.
 
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